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00:00:00
- Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast,00:00:01
where we discuss science,00:00:03
and science based tools for everyday life.00:00:09
I'm Andrew Huberman,00:00:10
and I'm a professor of
neurobiology and ophthalmology00:00:13
at Stanford School of Medicine.00:00:14
Today, my guest is Jeff Cavaliere.00:00:17
Jeff Cavaliere holds a Master
of Science in Physical Therapy00:00:20
and is a certified strength
and conditioning specialist.00:00:23
He did his training at the
University of Connecticut Storrs,00:00:25
one of the top five programs in the world00:00:27
in physical therapy and sports medicine.00:00:30
I discovered Jeff
Cavaliere over 10 years ago00:00:33
from his online content.00:00:35
His online content
includes information about00:00:38
how to train for strength,
how to train for hypertrophy,00:00:40
which is muscle growth,
how to train for endurance,00:00:43
as well as how to rehabilitate injuries00:00:46
to avoid muscular imbalances,
nutrition and supplementation.00:00:51
I've always found his content00:00:52
to be incredibly science
based, incredibly clear,00:00:56
sometimes surprising, and
always incredibly actionable.00:00:59
It is therefore not surprising00:01:01
that he has one of the
largest online platforms00:01:03
for fitness, nutrition, supplementation,00:01:05
and injury rehabilitation.00:01:07
Jeff has also worked
with an enormous number00:01:09
of professional athletes00:01:10
and has served as head physical therapist00:01:12
and assistant strength
coach for the New York Mets.00:01:15
Again, the content that Jeff
Cavaliere has posted online00:01:17
has been so immensely
useful to me over the years,00:01:20
that I was absolutely thrilled00:01:22
to get the chance to sit down with him00:01:23
and ask him about
everything from how to train00:01:27
in terms of how to split up the body parts00:01:30
that you train across the week,00:01:31
how to integrate strength
training and endurance training,00:01:34
when to stretch, how to stretch.00:01:35
Indeed, we talked about nutrition,00:01:38
we talk a bit about supplementation.00:01:40
We talk about how to really
avoid creating imbalances00:01:43
in muscle and in neural
control over muscle.00:01:46
This is one thing that's
really wonderful about Jeff is00:01:48
he really has an
understanding of not just how00:01:50
muscles and bones, and tendons
and ligaments work together,00:01:53
but how the nervous system
interfaces with those.00:01:55
We talked about the
mental side of training,00:01:57
including when to bring
specific concentration00:01:59
to the muscles that you're training,00:02:01
and when to think more about00:02:03
how to move weights through space00:02:04
and think more about
the movements overall.00:02:07
I'm certain that you'll find
the conversation that we held00:02:09
to be immensely useful and informative00:02:12
for your fitness practices00:02:13
and also for how you mentally
approach fitness in general,00:02:17
and how to set up a
lifelong fitness practice,00:02:19
one that will give you the
strength that you desire,00:02:22
one that will give you
the aesthetic results00:02:23
that you desire.00:02:24
One that will set you up for endurance00:02:26
and cardiovascular health,00:02:28
basically an overall fitness program.00:02:30
I really feel this is
where Jeff Cavaliere shines00:02:32
above and beyond so many of the other PTs00:02:34
and fitness so-called
influencers that are out there.00:02:37
Again, everything is grounded in science,00:02:39
everything is clear, and
everything is actionable.00:02:42
And while we do cover an
enormous amount of information00:02:45
during today's episode,00:02:46
if you want to dive even
deeper into that information,00:02:49
you can go to athleanx.com,00:02:51
where you'll find some of Jeff's programs.00:02:53
You can also find him
at Athlean-X on YouTube.00:02:57
There you'll find videos for instance,00:02:59
like the, how to repair or
heal from lower back pain.00:03:01
Something that I actually
followed directly00:03:03
long before I ever met Jeff,
has over 32 million views,00:03:06
and that is not by accident, it's because00:03:09
the protocols there again are
surprising and actionable.00:03:11
They relieved my back pain
very quickly without surgery.00:03:15
So I'm immensely grateful
for that content.00:03:17
And it extends into everything from again,00:03:19
hypertrophy, endurance and
strength training and so on.00:03:22
Again, it's athleanx.com as the website,00:03:25
Athlean-X on YouTube, and
also @athleanx on Instagram.00:03:28
The Huberman Lab Podcast
is proud to announce that00:03:30
we've partnered with
Momentous Supplements.00:03:32
We've done that for several reasons.00:03:34
First of all, the quality of their
supplements is exceedingly high.00:03:37
Second of all,00:03:38
we wanted to have a location
where you could find00:03:40
all of the supplements discussed
on the Huberman Lab Podcast00:03:43
in one easy to find place.00:03:45
You can now find that place
at livemomentous.com/huberman.00:03:49
In addition, Momentous
Supplements ship internationally,00:03:52
something that a lot of
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simply do not do.00:03:55
So that's terrific whether
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Right now, not all of the supplements00:04:00
that we discuss on the Huberman
Lab Podcast are listed,00:04:03
but that catalog of
supplements is being expanded00:04:05
very rapidly,00:04:06
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Again, you can find them at
livemomentus.com/huberman.00:04:16
Before we begin,00:04:17
I'd like to emphasize that
this podcast is separate00:04:20
from my teaching and
research roles at Stanford.00:04:22
It is however, part of
my desire and effort00:04:24
to bring zero cost to consumer
information about science00:04:27
and science related tools
to the general public.00:04:30
In keeping with that theme,00:04:31
I'd like to thank the
sponsors of today's podcast.00:04:34
Our first sponsor is Athletic
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I started taking AG1 way back in 2012.00:04:40
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The reason that I started taking AG1,00:04:45
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The gut microbiome are trillions
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from our immune system00:05:12
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That is, our gut and our brain
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Today's episode is also
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I've talked many times
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And now for my discussion
with Jeff Cavaliere.00:08:38
Jeff, such a pleasure
for me to have you here.00:08:40
- I'm glad to be here, it's amazing.00:08:42
- I'm a longtime consumer of your content.00:08:46
I've learned a tremendous
amount about fitness,00:08:49
both in the weight room and cardio,00:08:52
nutrition things that I've
applied for over a decade.00:08:55
So for me, this is
particularly meaningful.00:08:57
And my goal here is really
to ask a bunch of questions00:09:01
to which I'm interested in the answers,00:09:03
but also for which I know00:09:05
the audience is really curious about.00:09:07
So one of your mantras is,00:09:10
"If you want to look like an
athlete, train like an athlete"00:09:13
and I think that's something
really special that sets aside00:09:16
what you do from what a lot of other00:09:19
very well qualified people do.00:09:21
And in terms of the use
of weights and resistance,00:09:26
whether or not it's body
weight or weights in the gym,00:09:28
or pulleys versus cardio,00:09:31
in terms of overall health
aesthetics and athleticism,00:09:35
is there a way that you could point to00:09:38
the idea that maybe people should be doing00:09:39
50% resistance training and 50% cardio,00:09:43
maybe it's 70/30, maybe it's 30/70.00:09:47
And here I'm talking
about the typical person00:09:49
who would like to maintain, or maybe even00:09:53
add some muscle mass,00:09:54
probably in particular
areas for most people,00:09:56
as opposed to just overall mass.00:09:58
Although we'll talk about that later,00:09:59
and people who want to maintain00:10:00
a relatively low body fat percentage00:10:02
and be in good cardiovascular health.00:10:04
What's the sort of
contour of a basic program00:10:07
that anybody could think
about as a starting place?00:10:10
- I think it's like a 60/40 split,00:10:13
which would be leaning towards
weight training, strength00:10:16
and then the conditioning
aspect be about 40%.00:10:20
So if you look at it over a
course of a training week,00:10:22
I mean, five days in a
gym would be a great task.00:10:25
And obviously not in the gym,
it could be done at home.00:10:27
But three days strength training,
Monday, Wednesday, Friday.00:10:31
Conditioning, Tuesday,
Thursday, you know, two days.00:10:33
It's a pretty easy roundabout
way to split that up,00:10:36
of course, depending upon training goals.00:10:38
And as you said, the
aesthetic goals like that00:10:40
will shift dramatically.00:10:42
But if you want to see
the benefits of both,00:10:44
that's probably the effect
of dose for strength training00:10:48
and the effect of dose for conditioning00:10:49
at the bare minimum level.00:10:51
Again, being a much better
performer conditioning wise,00:10:54
you're going to want to do more than that.00:10:55
- And in terms of the
duration of those workouts,00:10:58
what's your suggestion?00:10:59
I've been weight training
for about 30 years,00:11:01
running for about 30 years,
and mainly for health.00:11:06
And have found that if
I work hard in the gym00:11:10
or at resistance training for
more than 60 minutes or so,00:11:14
it's very hard for me to
recover, I start getting cold,00:11:16
I start getting weaker
from workout to workout,00:11:18
but amazingly, at least to me,00:11:20
if I keep those workouts to
about 10 minutes of warmup00:11:23
and 55 minutes or so of really hard work00:11:28
for resistance training,00:11:29
and I keep the cardiovascular work00:11:31
to about 30 or 45 minutes, I feel great.00:11:34
And I seem to make some progress,00:11:37
at least someplace in the
workout from workout to workout.00:11:39
- Yeah, I mean, those are good numbers,00:11:42
'cause those are kind of
numbers that we usually preach.00:11:43
We try to keep our workouts to
an hour or less if possible.00:11:46
Now, depending upon the
split that you're following,00:11:49
if you're on a total body split,00:11:50
there's just going to be
more that has to be done00:11:53
in a given amount of time.00:11:54
And again if you're training
primarily for strength,00:11:57
that could prolong the workout,00:11:58
'cause of the longer rest
time is in between sets.00:12:00
But in general, when you're
not focused on that one aspect,00:12:03
but the overall health picture,00:12:05
then you can get the job
done in under an hour.00:12:08
And again, I always say, on top of00:12:10
"If you want to look like an
athlete train, like an athlete,"00:12:12
is, "You could either train
longer or you could train hard,00:12:14
but you can't do both."00:12:16
And I really believe
that the focus for me,00:12:18
I have a busy life,00:12:19
I have a lot of other things
that I do believe it or not.00:12:21
And it's like, I want to go
hard and I want to go get out.00:12:25
And I find that my body
also responds to that,00:12:27
and I think a lot of guys'
body respond to that.00:12:29
And particularly as
you start to get older,00:12:32
I think it's the length of the workout00:12:35
that actually causes more problems00:12:37
than the intensity of what you're doing.00:12:39
Particularly if you're warmed
up properly like you said.00:12:42
I've found personally that my warmup00:12:44
has had to become more of an
integral part of my workout00:12:46
than it ever has before.00:12:48
I could get in the gym when I was 20,00:12:51
and I'm going right over, I'm
doing the one set, two sets,00:12:53
I'm ready to go.00:12:55
You know, and I never do
another workout warmup set00:12:57
for any of the other exercise
I do the rest of the day.00:12:59
That's not true anymore.00:13:02
And I found that as long as I'm willing00:13:03
to sort of give myself a
little bit of a warmup,00:13:05
the intensity is not what bothers me.00:13:08
I'm very much in control
of the weights that I use00:13:10
and it doesn't bother me.00:13:12
But if I start to go pretty long,00:13:14
I start to feel achy or
I start to have problems.00:13:16
So again, depending upon age,00:13:18
that also plays a factor in the length.00:13:20
But again, I think everybody can achieve,00:13:23
on a standard program,00:13:25
can achieve the results that
they want within an hour.00:13:28
- In terms of splits,
you mentioned splits.00:13:30
And so for those who aren't
familiar with this term splits,00:13:32
it's really which body
parts are you training on?00:13:35
Which days?00:13:36
Seems like almost
everybody follows a weekly00:13:39
workout schedule.00:13:40
Although the body of course
doesn't care about the week.00:13:42
There's no reason thing
that once every seven days00:13:44
or twice every seven days
makes sense physiologically,00:13:46
it's just the body doesn't work that.00:13:48
But, that's the way life is structured.00:13:51
I've seen you discuss three days a week,00:13:54
whole body workouts.00:13:57
I've heard of splits
like a pushing one day,00:13:59
pulling another day, legs
another day, a day off, repeat.00:14:03
I mean, there's so many
variations on this.00:14:05
What are some general themes
that we can throw out there?00:14:08
And in order to avoid the
huge matrix of possibilities,00:14:11
you have some wonderful
content that points those.00:14:13
And we will cap-00:14:14
In our caption show notes,
we'll link out to some of those00:14:17
that different ways to design splits.00:14:19
But in terms of giving people a logic00:14:21
of how to think about
splitting up body parts,00:14:24
what's governing the split?00:14:26
What are the rules and the
logic that dictate a split?00:14:30
- For me, the first rule
is will you stick to it?00:14:32
Like if you, 'cause there are split,00:14:34
I don't particularly
like full body splits.00:14:36
And I was actually talking to Jesse00:14:38
about that the other day like,00:14:39
I don't necessarily like to
have to train everything.00:14:42
Now of course the volumes will
come down per muscle group.00:14:45
But if you don't like to do that,00:14:48
and you actually don't look
forward to your workout00:14:50
because you're dreading
having to do everything00:14:52
and feeling maybe too fatigued00:14:53
by the time your workout's over,00:14:55
or the fact that those generally
do take a little bit longer00:14:57
and don't fit into your schedule.00:14:59
I don't care how effective the split is,00:15:01
a split not done is not effective.00:15:03
So you need to find one that fits.00:15:04
So maybe you go into
an alternative option,00:15:07
like a push-pull-legs, like you mentioned.00:15:09
And that could be done either
one cycle through the week,00:15:13
on a Monday, Wednesday, Friday split,00:15:15
or it could be twice in a week.00:15:17
So you're actually training six times,00:15:19
where you repeat it,
pull-push-legs, pull-push-legs,00:15:22
or however you want to do it00:15:24
with either a day off in
between the three days,00:15:26
or at the end of the six days.00:15:29
And again, that actually
impacts your schedule.00:15:31
I've broken that down before where it's,00:15:33
if you put it in between the three days,00:15:35
it's good because you're giving
yourself an extra rest day00:15:37
in between, but it starts
to shift that day off00:15:40
every week as we wrap around.00:15:41
So for those guys that we're choosing00:15:43
that seven day schedule out
of convenience in our heads,00:15:45
it starts to mess with that off day.00:15:47
So others like to just
keep it predictably,00:15:49
let's say on a Sunday, and
train six days in a row.00:15:52
But that's a better way
to maybe group similar00:15:56
muscle actions together, which I think,00:16:00
I definitely prefer that,00:16:01
because if I'm going to be
training pulling movements,00:16:05
at least there there's
a synergy between them.00:16:07
And I feel like I'm looking
to achieve one goal that day.00:16:11
And then, I mean, quite honestly,00:16:13
you can go back to the bro-split days,00:16:16
and those still work effectively.00:16:18
There's a reason why
they worked in the past.00:16:20
I think that science shows
that there's smarter ways00:16:23
to do them these days.00:16:24
Like you can come back
and hit a related muscle,00:16:27
so you could do, let's
say biceps on one day00:16:30
and then come back two
days later and do back,00:16:32
realizing again, synergy
between the exercises there,00:16:36
your biceps are going to
get re-stimulated again.00:16:38
So you could figure out
ways to make that work,00:16:41
but the thing that I
think is effective there,00:16:43
is that tends to be one of the ones00:16:44
that people like the most.00:16:45
Because they can go in, they
get their pump, they feel good.00:16:48
It's pretty solely focused
on one muscle group.00:16:51
- Is that the definition of a bro-split?00:16:53
One...
- One muscle group a day?00:16:55
- Yeah, I see, so it's
very much geared towards00:16:57
strength and aesthetics
really maximizing...00:16:59
- Probably more aesthetics
than strength, yeah.00:17:03
You're just...
- Hence the bro, the bro name.00:17:06
- But again, like, you know,
in here I am a science guy00:17:08
and I could appreciate the
benefits of a bro-split.00:17:10
Especially 'cause again, like to what end?00:17:13
Who's goal are we trying to achieve here?00:17:16
Those are ours.00:17:18
Like if I'm applying my
standards and my goals00:17:22
or even like athletic ideals,00:17:24
but they just want to get in shape,00:17:26
then it's perfectly fine to do
a bro split in that instance,00:17:30
if you're sticking to it again00:17:32
and you're seeing the results
that you want to see from it.00:17:34
But they're able to really
keep their focus on one muscle,00:17:38
they get to focus on.00:17:40
Look, a lot of times people struggle with00:17:42
the way of an exercise feels00:17:44
until their second or third set.00:17:46
Like they don't have that
proper percept of ability00:17:48
to kind of lock in on an exercise.00:17:49
So spending a few, not only
sets in the same exercise,00:17:54
but then doing another exercise
for the same muscle group00:17:56
helps them to dial in a little bit better00:17:57
and get more out of their training.00:17:59
- Yeah, that raised a really interesting,00:18:01
I think important question.00:18:02
Early on when I started
resistance training,00:18:04
which was when I was 16 in high school,00:18:06
I got in touch with and I was
learning from Mike Menzer.00:18:10
- Me too, that's crazy.00:18:13
- And Mike was very helpful.00:18:15
Very, very helpful. We got to be friendly...00:18:16
- So, I just read his book,00:18:17
I didn't get a chance to be
him, so I'm jealous, right?00:18:19
- Well, back then no internet,00:18:22
I paid by Western Union type
thing to send him some money00:18:26
- From the back of the magazine.00:18:27
- And then he got on the phone with me00:18:29
and my mother at the time was like,00:18:30
why is this grown man calling the house?00:18:32
And he gave me a very
straightforward split,00:18:34
which was shoulders, arms one day,00:18:36
he had me taking two days
off and then training legs00:18:39
and then two days off and then
chest and back, et cetera.00:18:41
- And that's a variation
of a bro-split too.00:18:43
Where you're sort of
breaking them down that way,00:18:45
chest them back or chest
them bis, you know?00:18:47
- And it worked very well for me,00:18:49
I probably would've,
because of my age I think,00:18:51
and because I was untrained,
I think, largely untrained,00:18:54
I think it would've grown
on many different programs,00:18:57
but it worked very well for me.00:18:58
I eventually just made that
in every other day thing.00:19:01
Shoulders and arms day
off, legs day or two off,00:19:04
'cause if you hit legs
right, at least for me,00:19:06
I'm not training the next day.00:19:08
And then I'm not doing
much of anything athletic00:19:10
the next day, and chest,
back and repeat and so on.00:19:13
And the reason I found that helpful00:19:15
is I almost always
recovered between workouts.00:19:18
The six day a week
program of push-pull-legs,00:19:22
push-pull-legs, to me seems excruciating00:19:25
from two standpoints.00:19:27
One is, at least with
my recovery abilities,00:19:30
or lack of recovery abilities,00:19:31
I can't imagine coming back feeling fresh.00:19:33
And the other one is,00:19:34
if I'm in the gym more
than four days a week,00:19:37
I really start to fatigue it00:19:39
about the whole psychological
experience of it.00:19:41
Whereas if I'm in there
three or four days a week.00:19:43
In other words, if I put a day
off in between each workout,00:19:46
I really want to be there.00:19:48
And I get in there with a lot of fire.00:19:50
And I'm also doing other
things on the off days.00:19:52
So I think that, I love that you mentioned00:19:55
the split that you'll stick to.00:19:56
And that you can bring the intensity to,00:19:59
because I think that
that's really important.00:20:00
I sometimes hear about two a day training.00:20:03
I've done two a day training
twice in my lifetime,00:20:05
both times I got sick two days later.00:20:07
That's correlation, not causation.00:20:10
But is there ever an
instance where two a day00:20:14
weight training makes sense00:20:16
for the non-drug assisted,
typical recovery ability person?00:20:21
- Actually, I think it makes
sense in some scenarios,00:20:24
but it doesn't make sense practically00:20:26
for a lot of people's schedules.00:20:27
So like if you could break down,00:20:29
let's say you were going to do even00:20:33
some version of a total body session,00:20:35
or maybe like you're going to
do an upper lower split, right?00:20:38
You could do an upper workout
and do the anterior chain00:20:42
or the pushing portion
of that in one session00:20:45
and then come back and do
the pulling session later on00:20:48
at night, if you had the opportunity to.00:20:51
The thing that you benefit from there00:20:52
is the freshness of focus.00:20:54
Again, like something
in my head is sacrificed00:20:57
by the time you get
towards the latter half00:20:59
of whatever workout you're in.00:21:01
To the same point you made before like,00:21:02
when you start to approach
that 50 minutes an hour mark,00:21:06
you are either losing
focus, you're losing energy,00:21:08
you're losing contract viability,
you're losing something.00:21:11
And if you're relegating whatever it is,00:21:14
the pulling portion of that
to the end of that workout,00:21:16
something suffers so that,00:21:18
and if they realize that's happening,00:21:19
then maybe you switch them up00:21:21
the next time you do the workout00:21:22
where the pulling portion of
the upper workout goes first,00:21:24
and then the pushing goes later,00:21:26
so you're at least not
just continuing that cycle,00:21:29
but at the same time,00:21:30
if you were able to kind of split them up,00:21:32
you get a chance to kind of take a break,00:21:34
you could have that
freshness of focus again,00:21:36
and you could actually
get a better effort in,00:21:38
'cause again, I think
effort drives the results.00:21:40
So if the effort is not compromised,00:21:42
then you should be able to do that.00:21:44
But systemically is that a problem?00:21:47
And I think that it is a
problem for a lot of people.00:21:48
It's just hard to,00:21:50
it's hard to rev the engine
up a lot of times in the day.00:21:53
You warm that thing up once,00:21:54
it's like that car in the
winter, you get it going once,00:21:56
you're lucky, okay,00:21:57
now you got to drive
it the rest of the day.00:21:58
But you put it in the garage00:22:01
and try to start it the
next day, it's a problem.00:22:04
So, you know, young people
can get away with it00:22:06
a lot more than older people could.00:22:08
- Well, I've never had a
strong recovery quotient,00:22:10
but if I stick to this
one day off in between,00:22:12
every once in a while, two
days in a row training,00:22:15
maybe because I have to travel00:22:16
and I want to make sure
I get all the workouts00:22:18
and kind of thing, I seem to be okay.00:22:20
I like your example of warming up the car,00:22:21
spoken like a true east coaster,00:22:24
or those of us are on the west coast,00:22:26
I took a moment there,00:22:27
but we folks from the East
Coast and the Midwest, get it,00:22:31
and certainly from Europe.00:22:33
In terms of the mixing up
of cardiovascular training00:22:38
and resistance training,
same day, different day,00:22:43
which one should come first,
which one should come second?00:22:47
If one main goals, again,00:22:49
everyone listening has
different goals are,00:22:51
most people would like to either maintain00:22:53
or gain some muscle.00:22:54
I don't know many people
that want to lose muscle.00:22:56
To maintain or gains some muscle,00:22:57
usually in specific
locations on their body,00:23:00
most people would like to be
a bit leaner or a lot leaner.00:23:03
There are a few people out there that are00:23:04
either naturally lean or don't want,00:23:06
or actually just want to gain weight.00:23:07
But assuming that people
want to get leaner,00:23:09
put on some muscle, maintain muscle,00:23:10
and want to have a healthy
heart and a healthy brain,00:23:13
which basically requires a
healthy cardiovascular system,00:23:16
how would you incorporate
cardiovascular work00:23:20
into the overall weekly regimen?00:23:23
- So again, I think that the bare minimum00:23:26
is probably twice a week
in terms of cardiovascular.00:23:28
If you want to have some semblance00:23:30
of cardiovascular conditioning.00:23:31
But I think most people
who actually need it more00:23:33
or want to pursue it more than that00:23:36
are going to need more time to do that.00:23:37
So at some point it can't just
be relegated to a day off,00:23:41
or a day off from the
weight training workouts.00:23:44
So at some point it has
to occur on the same day.00:23:48
And in that case, I just like to put it,00:23:50
if that is, you're not your primary goal,00:23:52
but you're looking more for
the, just the overall picture,00:23:56
the aesthetics you mentioned,00:23:57
putting muscle on in certain areas,00:23:58
then I would put it at
the end of the workout.00:23:59
'Cause you don't want
it in any way compromise00:24:02
the weight training work out.00:24:04
And as we've sort of referenced
a couple times already,00:24:06
the intensity of those
workouts is important.00:24:08
And we know there's a strength component00:24:11
to those workouts also that is going to00:24:14
be a helpful stimulus for growth.00:24:17
So the conditioning, the cardio,00:24:19
that stuff done prior to any training,00:24:22
strength training, workout,00:24:23
is likely going to impair your ability00:24:25
to perform at your best.00:24:27
So unless it's just done
for a quick little warmup00:24:29
in the beginning,00:24:30
but then it's not sustained
long enough really to be00:24:31
a benefit for cardiovascular conditioning.00:24:34
So I just like to put that at the end,00:24:37
realizing that even if
my effort level is lower,00:24:42
my output is lower,00:24:43
if it's still placing a
demand on my cardiac output00:24:47
to get that conditioning
effect because I'm fatigued,00:24:51
it still has a demand
on my cardiac output,00:24:52
so it's still achieving its goal,00:24:54
but it didn't interfere with my main goal00:24:56
of being able to increase
my performance in the gym.00:24:58
- Got it.00:24:59
And in terms of the form
of cardiovascular training,00:25:02
I've seen you do a number of,
I have to say very impressive00:25:07
high intensity interval type work.00:25:09
So burpee type work,00:25:10
or pushups with crunches mixed into them,00:25:14
anyway, people can see your videos,00:25:15
I didn't describe those in the best way,00:25:17
but rather than on the treadmill00:25:20
or out jogging for 30-45 minutes,00:25:22
is that because you
prefer higher intensity,00:25:25
higher heart rate type training,00:25:28
or is it because you
live in cold Connecticut,00:25:30
and you don't want to be
out jogging on the roads00:25:33
in the middle of the winter?00:25:35
- I think all the above,00:25:36
I mean, those are factors
from a personal level,00:25:38
but I think that if you are-00:25:41
If we could blend function
across these realms00:25:46
and not have such a delineation between,00:25:49
this is my way training,
and this is my conditioning,00:25:51
but figure out a way
to blend them together,00:25:54
I always think that you've got
a better opportunity to get00:25:57
that more well rounded result.00:25:59
And I like to kind of mix up
that straight conditioning work00:26:03
and also some of the footwork drills.00:26:06
We have some high expectations for guys00:26:08
that come into our programs,00:26:09
like to just do some footwork drills.00:26:11
- Like ladders.
- Like ladders,00:26:12
or line drills or something.00:26:14
And you know what happens?00:26:15
People become intrigued and interested.00:26:16
Like I never, I haven't
tried this since high school.00:26:20
And they become interested
in just the challenge of it,00:26:23
and then as we become almost
distracted by the challenge,00:26:26
we're now like finding
ourselves conditioning.00:26:28
And I always think
that's an important part,00:26:31
that sometimes you got to draw people in00:26:34
to show them what they
might be interested in.00:26:36
And from the output or the effect of it,00:26:39
I just think that when
you're able to blend some,00:26:41
still maintain some of
that strength training00:26:44
into the exercise, as you mentioned,00:26:46
let's say I'm doing some kind
of a push up or a burpee,00:26:48
there is an anaerobic component to that00:26:51
that is going to be helpful,00:26:53
that then rather than just
walking or just jogging.00:26:57
Not to say that that
isn't an effective means00:27:00
for strict cardiac conditioning,00:27:03
it's one of the ways that
we've had for centuries,00:27:06
how to do it.00:27:07
But I just think that if we can blend it,00:27:10
then it becomes maybe a
little bit more interesting00:27:12
and you get some of
those crossover benefits,00:27:14
and it doesn't become so segmented00:27:16
in terms of what we're trying to do.00:27:17
- I love the idea of bringing
some mental challenge00:27:20
and some desire to improve
a skill while conditioning.00:27:23
That's not something that
I've thought of before,00:27:25
and it's simply 'cause I've overlooked it,00:27:26
but it makes sense because, my
sister who's reasonably fit,00:27:29
although I'm always trying
to get her to do a bit more,00:27:31
she always asks me, what should I take?00:27:34
And I'm a, I don't
believe her in supplements00:27:36
are for certain people
in certain instances,00:27:38
but I keep telling her, you know, it's,00:27:39
the behaviors are going to end,00:27:42
nutrition are going to
have the greatest outsize00:27:44
positive effect.00:27:45
And she loves things like
dance classes and things,00:27:49
or kickboxing, these
kinds of things which,00:27:52
so it makes sense that
if you can hook somebody00:27:54
on the conditioning
aspect or the skill aspect00:27:56
and kind of trick them
into doing more cardio,00:27:58
so to speak that's terrific.00:28:00
Also the neuroscientist
in me just has to say,00:28:03
forgive me, that anytime you're engaging00:28:06
the two sets of motor neurons,
the ones in your brain,00:28:09
the upper motor neurons and
the ones in your spinal cord,00:28:11
anytime you're engaging
those upper motor neurons,00:28:12
which are for deliberate
well controlled action,00:28:15
you're doing a great thing for your brain00:28:17
in terms of brain longevity.00:28:19
So, now I need to incorporate
some actual skills00:28:22
into my training.00:28:25
Going back to weight training a bit,00:28:27
one of the most important
things I learned from you,00:28:30
so over the years was that,00:28:33
when training to increase
muscle size, to really think,00:28:38
not so much about moving weights,00:28:39
but more about challenging muscles.00:28:41
- Yeah.00:28:42
- I also heard this from
my friend, Ben Pakulski,00:28:45
who's a very well accomplished,00:28:46
He was a bodybuilder,00:28:47
now he's into other aspects
of fitness, teaches fitness,00:28:50
but don't move weights challenge muscles,00:28:52
unless you're trying to power lift00:28:53
or something of that sort, which
I'm not, immensely helpful.00:28:57
But the other thing that
I learned from you that,00:29:00
combined with that was this idea that00:29:03
certain muscles will grow
better and get stronger00:29:06
much more easily, maybe
even will recover better00:29:09
because of our ability to
contract them really hard.00:29:12
And this what I call the Cavaliere test,00:29:14
which is at least if I could paraphrase,00:29:18
so for instance, if I can, it's
always the bicep, isn't it?00:29:23
Let's use the calf or the bicep.00:29:25
If you can flex your
bicep to the point where00:29:28
it hurts a little bit,00:29:29
like it almost feels
like a cramp or a cramp,00:29:31
where you can flex your
calf to the point where00:29:33
it really cramps up a little bit,00:29:34
almost feels like it's nodding up,00:29:36
that's a pretty good indication00:29:37
that you're going to be able to00:29:39
stimulate that muscle well under load00:29:41
if you're doing the movement properly.00:29:43
And that's the feeling to
actually aim for each repetition,00:29:46
maybe even throughout the repetition.00:29:48
For me, this completely
transformed my results.00:29:52
And this was, I think
maybe five/six years ago00:29:54
that I first heard this from you,00:29:55
body parts that for me, lagged behind,00:29:58
that I thought maybe genetically
weren't going to work for me,00:30:01
immediately just started growing, right?00:30:04
And I was getting stronger and stronger,00:30:06
and I thought this is
really something so much so00:30:08
that I've dedicated a
portion of my research00:30:10
along with, in collaboration
with another group00:30:13
to try and understand00:30:14
what's happening in these upper
motor neurons in the brain00:30:18
that can engage the muscles even more.00:30:20
And that it's not just
about progressive overload00:30:22
or putting a pump into the muscle.00:30:24
That it's really this
mind muscle connection00:30:28
is a real thing when it
comes to predicting results00:30:30
and that you can get better at it.00:30:32
So forgive me if we're paraphrasing00:30:34
your incredible content around this,00:30:36
it made a tremendous difference for me00:30:38
and a number of other people
that have passed that along to.00:30:41
But what can you, first of all,
how did you arrive at that?00:30:45
Because we hear about the
mind-muscle connection,00:30:46
but I really heard it first from you.00:30:48
How did you arrive at
this kind of cramp test,00:30:50
the Cavaliere test as I'll call it?00:30:52
It's always weird when people name things00:30:53
after themselves in science,00:30:55
but other scientists can name things.00:30:56
So there is now officially
the Cavaliere test,00:30:58
is whether or not you can cramp the muscle00:31:01
in the absence of load, just flexing it00:31:03
to the point where it hurts a little bit.00:31:04
That would be a good indication00:31:06
that you could grow that muscle well.00:31:08
How did you come up with this?00:31:10
- I mean, honestly, it's
something that made sense to me,00:31:15
because during my workouts,
even as a young kid00:31:19
just starting out, I always wanted to know00:31:21
what is it working?00:31:22
A lot of people ask that
question more so than you think,00:31:24
like, what is this supposed to work?00:31:26
And a lot, I don't know
if you've ever noticed,00:31:28
but like when people ask that question,00:31:30
if they're being trained by a trainer,00:31:32
and the trainer's saying,
well, just do this,00:31:34
do this exercise and they'll
show you how to do it.00:31:37
But then they'll say, but
what is it supposed to work?00:31:39
Where am I supposed to feel this, right?00:31:40
People, did they just
inherently ask that question?00:31:43
A lot of people will.00:31:45
I was one of those that did
that, and I asked that question.00:31:47
Not because I knew what I was doing,00:31:48
but just because I don't know,00:31:49
I wanted to know what was
supposed to be doing the work.00:31:52
Once you do that, and you
start to seek that out,00:31:55
and say, okay, well,00:31:56
the bicep is what's supposed
to be doing the work,00:31:58
then I want to make sure
the bicep's doing the work.00:32:01
So then I would just sort of
really like tweak the movement00:32:05
to make it do more work or
feel more uncomfortable,00:32:07
or get it stronger contraction,00:32:09
knowing if that's supposed to do the job,00:32:10
it wasn't until PT
school that I'm learning,00:32:13
oh, well, the flexion of the elbow00:32:15
is the brachial and the bias00:32:16
and the bias' responsible for supination.00:32:18
You started to, I learned
other components of it,00:32:20
but all I wanted to know was
to bring my arm up in a curl,00:32:23
what is supposed to do the job?00:32:25
So I would seek out ways
to make that happen better.00:32:30
And when I was able to do that,00:32:31
I could feel the stronger contraction.00:32:33
And I just, I don't know what it, I just,00:32:35
I was no visionary, I just felt like00:32:37
I knew that that was
going to be better for me00:32:39
if the muscle I was trying to grow00:32:40
was being stressed more effectively.00:32:43
So when I was attempting to do this00:32:47
across different exercises,
I would notice that00:32:50
what I could do potentially
on a curl where my arm is up,00:32:54
where you asking me to flex
my bicep that position,00:32:56
I couldn't do if I was
doing a concentration curl,00:33:00
or I couldn't carry over to a cable curl,00:33:03
and that shouldn't really change,00:33:06
'cause the function is
still largely the same,00:33:08
there's still elbow flexion,
there's still supination,00:33:11
why am I not able to do it there?00:33:13
And that's when it sort of
clued into me that like,00:33:15
your mind-muscle connection on00:33:18
not just your mind with one muscle,00:33:20
but on every exercise matters,00:33:22
and it varies from exercise to exercise.00:33:25
And even if you don't gain
muscle size from doing that,00:33:28
although I think it's very hard not to,00:33:30
especially if you're
not used to doing that,00:33:32
there's a term I like to call muscularity,00:33:34
which is a difference, right?00:33:36
It's the level of sort of
resting tone in the muscle.00:33:39
That improves dramatically.00:33:41
If you can learn how to just start to00:33:43
engage that muscle better,00:33:46
the muscularity, the
resting tone of that muscle00:33:49
is harder, it's more at
attention, it's more alive.00:33:55
And it's all driven from
being able to connect better00:33:59
neurologically with the muscle
that you're trying to train.00:34:02
I've talked about a lot in efficiency00:34:04
is really what you're
trying to seek in movements00:34:07
when you're trying to create hypertrophy.00:34:09
When strength is your goal,00:34:11
efficiency of the movement
is what you're looking for.00:34:13
You're looking to have
muscles tied together00:34:15
and work well efficiently,00:34:17
the chest, the shoulders, the triceps,00:34:18
to get a bar off of your
chest or in a bench press.00:34:21
You're not looking to
make it a very inefficient00:34:24
leverages for your chest,00:34:26
to try to grow your
chest in a bench press,00:34:28
you're trying to let the
whole package come together00:34:31
for a greater output.00:34:32
But when you're trying to go
and create muscle hypertrophy00:34:35
or even this muscularity
that I talk about,00:34:37
you need to seek ways to make
it feel more uncomfortable.00:34:39
If you don't feel the discomfort,00:34:41
then you're doing something wrong.00:34:43
And I struggle to this day
on certain muscle groups00:34:46
to still do that, even knowing
what I'm trying to work00:34:48
and knowing what the goal of
everything I'm preaching here.00:34:51
It's very difficult for some muscles00:34:53
and for certain people to
do this on certain muscles.00:34:55
But as you mentioned, practice does help.00:34:58
And the more you become consistent00:35:01
and deliberate with what
you're trying to do,00:35:03
the more of a result you actually get.00:35:05
- It's couple of really
couple of points I'd like00:35:08
to delve into further.00:35:12
First of all, my hunch was always that00:35:14
the muscle groups that grew most easily00:35:18
and that I could contract
hardest without any-00:35:21
The first time I did the
Cavaliere test, got 10 out 10.00:35:23
If we give it a 10 out of 10 scale.00:35:25
It could just like cinch,
isolate those muscles,00:35:27
cinch them, grow them easily.00:35:28
I mean, there's certain body parts,00:35:30
I don't want to say which ones,00:35:31
'cause it doesn't really
matter, that I always felt like00:35:33
if I just did pushups, they would grow,00:35:35
and these muscles are far
away from any of the muscles00:35:36
that are supposed to
be involved in pushups,00:35:38
even though I like to think
I'm doing pushups correctly.00:35:41
You'll tell me if I'm not.00:35:43
But some of that I think is genetic,00:35:46
and some of that has to do
with the sports that I played00:35:48
when I was younger.00:35:49
So I swam, I played soccer, I skateboard.00:35:52
And then later I boxed.00:35:53
And so the muscles
involved in those sports00:35:55
were always very easy to engage00:35:58
later when I went into the gym.00:35:59
So I guess perhaps a call to parents,00:36:03
having kids do a lot of dynamic activity,00:36:05
seems like it might be a good idea.00:36:08
The other thing is this
issue of muscularity.00:36:11
I am so glad you brought that up.00:36:12
There are, I have to imagine
a large number of listeners00:36:16
who don't want to get bigger.00:36:18
They don't want to take
up a larger clothing size.00:36:20
They don't want to take up more space.00:36:23
In fact, some of them would
like to take up less space,00:36:25
but they want that quality
that you're describing,00:36:28
which is that, oftentimes
you hear it more in the,00:36:31
here I'm stereotyping a
bit, but with kindness.00:36:34
You hear from women who
haven't weight trained,00:36:37
they say, I don't want to get big, often.00:36:39
Sometimes they do, but most women that
I've helped weight train00:36:41
or talked to about weight train say,00:36:42
I don't want to get big,
I want to get toned.00:36:44
And I think what they're referring to00:36:46
is this quality of muscularity.00:36:48
- A hundred percent,
- This idea that at resting00:36:50
or at close to rest, or
anytime someone reaches out00:36:53
and grabs a glass,00:36:54
that the muscles almost look
like they're kind of twitching00:36:56
underneath the skin.00:36:57
And yet it's Saran wrap skin
anatomy chart type skin.00:37:02
So this thing of
muscularity, or resting tone,00:37:05
has a physiological basis,00:37:07
I think it's how readily the nerves00:37:09
are communicating with the muscles.00:37:11
And you're saying that by
learning to engage the muscles00:37:14
more actively, the resting tone
or muscularity can improve.00:37:18
Have you seen that both in men and women?00:37:20
- Yeah, oh yeah.00:37:21
- And do you think this is
something that takes upkeep,00:37:25
maintenance, or that once
you develop that in a muscle,00:37:28
you can just kind of let it coast.00:37:29
- I think like everything
at key, it requires upkeep,00:37:32
you know, user lose it,
I do believe firmly,00:37:35
but like I think that the
development of the connections00:37:38
is going to be harder than the
maintenance of the connection.00:37:41
As I said, I still struggle
to this day for myself with00:37:44
unnamed muscle groups, they also,-00:37:47
But there's just certain areas00:37:51
that are harder for your
brain for whatever reason00:37:54
to just develop that connection
at that type of level00:37:57
to create that extra strong contraction.00:38:00
But I think that with
proper dedication and focus,00:38:04
and then I'll go right out and say,00:38:06
calves is one of the areas that00:38:07
I don't necessarily have
a great connection with,00:38:09
and I also obviously must not care so much00:38:12
'cause I don't put in the time and effort00:38:14
to create that connection as I could.00:38:17
So I think what might happen is,00:38:20
you know yeah, there
could be a struggle there,00:38:21
but then with struggle comes disinterest,00:38:23
'cause you're like, well
screw it, I'm a calf knot00:38:26
and I'm not going to do anything about it.00:38:27
So I think if you put
the required effort in,00:38:31
and the time and repetitions
that you will develop that,00:38:33
and once you do develop it,
it's going to stick around00:38:36
a lot longer than it would00:38:37
had you not invested
any time into it at all,00:38:39
not requiring as much of that.00:38:41
But I mean, I don't
know, like you mentioned,00:38:44
now when you train, it's like,00:38:46
you're just, this is just
part of how you train now,00:38:49
like you're going hard,00:38:50
you're trying to really
forcefully contract.00:38:53
You're not just moving the weight,00:38:55
I say from point A to point B,00:38:57
but you're like trying
to contract the weight00:38:59
through that range.00:39:00
That is a mindset that I try to put into00:39:04
what everything I'm doing,00:39:05
unless of course I'm focused
on a strength exercise00:39:08
where I'm just trying
to lift a greater amount00:39:11
and use all the muscles together.00:39:12
But when the goal is
inefficiency for hypertrophy,00:39:15
I am really trying to
create that contraction,00:39:19
and it's just part of my training.00:39:21
So I guess that for consistency's sake,00:39:24
as long as I'm training is happening.00:39:26
If I get away from training
that it's not happening at all,00:39:29
but you know, even there,00:39:30
I probably another embarrassing
admission probably,00:39:33
will mindfully do it throughout the day,00:39:35
even with no weight in my
hand, in certain muscle groups,00:39:38
whether it be my abs or my arm
or my shoulders or something,00:39:40
I'm doing something just to
sort of engage the muscles.00:39:43
And I do think that some of
that sort of inane practice00:39:46
actually helps by the time
you go back into the gym.00:39:48
You just kind of keep
that connection going.00:39:52
- Well, it certainly obeys all
the rules of neuroplasticity.00:39:55
You know the fire together
wired together mantra,00:39:57
which is the words of my
colleague, Carla Shatz,00:40:00
hold true for all aspects
of neural function,00:40:03
including nerve to muscle.00:40:05
So these flexing throughout the day00:40:06
or the deliberate isolation
of contracting a muscle00:40:10
throughout the day is without question00:40:12
engaging neuroplasticity.00:40:14
And if you were to do
fewer those repetitions,00:40:15
you're going to get less engagement00:40:17
of the nerve to muscle connection.00:40:18
I can say this with a smile
and with confidence because,00:40:22
one of the first things all
neuroscience students learn00:40:24
is about the neuromuscular junction,00:40:26
'cause it's a really
simple example of where00:40:29
the more times the nerve fires00:40:30
and gets the muscle to contract,00:40:32
the stronger that connection get,00:40:33
receptors are brought
there, et cetera, et cetera,00:40:35
there's a whole bunch of
mechanisms for a topic00:40:37
of another podcast.00:40:39
But basically that
practice throughout the day00:40:43
makes total sense and works.00:40:45
- Yeah, and there's no, believe me,00:40:47
there's no science behind that00:40:48
in terms of the application of it.00:40:50
You do it when,00:40:51
you catch yourself doing
it from time to time.00:40:54
But it is definitely
something that's easily done00:40:56
discreetly and you wind up doing.00:40:59
I actually, I think in a recent
video when I did talk about00:41:03
growing your arms by just
improving the connection.00:41:07
Not that that connection
itself is applying any load00:41:10
or resistance that's significant00:41:12
to create overload for growth,00:41:13
but it's the development
of that connection00:41:15
that I then take back with me into the gym00:41:18
at a more effective level00:41:19
that takes every exercise I do there00:41:21
and makes it more effective.00:41:22
- That's like sharpening
the blade, so to speak.00:41:24
Yeah, certainly obeys the laws00:41:27
of nerve to muscle physiology.00:41:30
Wanted to just touch
on a couple of things.00:41:33
If the goal is to challenge muscles,00:41:36
and one is dividing their
body into, let's say,00:41:39
a three or four day a week
split or so, or maybe up to six,00:41:44
how do you know when a muscle is ready00:41:46
to be challenged again?00:41:48
Again, I've heard, okay, every 48 hours is00:41:50
protein synthesis increases
and then we'll get into this00:41:53
and then it drops off.00:41:54
But frankly, if I train my legs hard,00:41:59
I can get stronger from
workout to workout,00:42:01
or at least better in some
way, workout to workout,00:42:04
leg workout to leg workout,00:42:06
training them once every
five to eight days.00:42:09
If I train them more often, I get worse.00:42:12
So whatever that 48 hour
to 72 hour thing is,00:42:17
somehow my legs don't obey that,00:42:18
or maybe something else is wrong with me,00:42:21
but I'm sure there are many
things else wrong with me,00:42:23
but how do you assess
recovery at the local level,00:42:27
meaning at the level of the muscles,00:42:29
so we'll talk about soreness,00:42:30
and getting better, stronger,
more repetitions, et cetera?00:42:33
And then at the systemic level,00:42:35
the level of the nervous system.00:42:36
And I'd love for you to
tell us about the tool that,00:42:40
again, I learned from you, which is actually using a physical scale,00:42:43
because it turns out that,00:42:45
will let you tell what the tool is,00:42:47
but that tool is also actively being used00:42:50
for assessing cognitive decline,
and cognitive maintenance,00:42:54
and cognitive function00:42:55
in people with Alzheimer's and dementia.00:42:57
- That makes total sense.00:42:59
Makes total sense.00:43:01
So regarding the first
part of the question,00:43:06
how would you kind of dictate
when a muscle's recovered?00:43:09
So I do think that what you're
experiencing is totally real,00:43:14
that different muscles
recover at different rates.00:43:17
And I've always been so
fascinated by this concept.00:43:21
I've talked about internally
with my team, but like,00:43:23
I feel like what we really need
the holy grail to training,00:43:28
is going to be when we're
able to crack the code00:43:30
on an individual basis,
when a muscle is recovered,00:43:34
and that is going to dictate
its training schedule.00:43:37
And the fact that you might have a bicep00:43:40
that could be trained
via a pulling workout,00:43:44
a regular bicep dedicated workout,00:43:45
forget to split at the moment.00:43:46
You may have a bicep
that's able to be trained,00:43:48
that can be trained again the next day.00:43:52
And then the next day,00:43:53
and then maybe you need
a day off after that.00:43:55
But like, that can vary from
person to person for sure,00:43:59
and it can vary from muscle
to muscle in that person00:44:01
over the course of time as you mentioned,00:44:04
'cause the systemic
recovery is going to impact00:44:06
all those muscles anyway,00:44:07
but let's say you're
systemically recovering,00:44:09
every muscle itself is going
to have a recovery rate.00:44:14
And I think what's fascinating is that,00:44:16
when you talked about before
we like to train in this week,00:44:19
or we have, like the way
our mind looks at training,00:44:22
well, if that was the
case with the biceps,00:44:24
that bicep is a slave to the
rest of your training split.00:44:28
Where it's like, well, why
does it have to be also00:44:31
at the end of every
eighth day or whatever,00:44:34
when it might respond better to something00:44:36
much more frequently?00:44:37
And your legs are also
being thrown into that mix.00:44:40
There's a Mike Menzer
concept where he's like,00:44:42
train one set and be done for 14 days.00:44:45
I mean, there's such variability
between muscle groups00:44:50
and you're linking them all together.00:44:53
I think that coming back
and using muscle soreness00:44:59
as a guideline for that, is
one of the only tools we have00:45:03
in terms of the local level.00:45:05
You know we don't really
have, being able to measure,00:45:07
let's say CPK levels inside
of a muscle would be amazing,00:45:11
at a local level to see how
recovered that muscle is,00:45:16
but that becomes fairly invasive,
at least to my knowledge,00:45:19
it becomes fairly invasive.00:45:20
So what are our tools?00:45:21
I mean, I think that at the basic level,00:45:23
that's the one that most
people can relate to00:45:25
and easily identify, and
then use that as a guideline.00:45:27
And if you're training
when you're really sore,00:45:29
it's probably not a great idea.00:45:32
And it's probably a good indication00:45:33
that that muscle's not recovered,00:45:35
but at least hearing what
you and I are saying here00:45:37
might be a comfort to the person to say,00:45:38
yeah, it is possible
that it's not recovered.00:45:41
Just because 48 hours
is the recommendation.00:45:43
And just because research points
to muscle protein synthesis00:45:46
needing a restimulation, well, maybe not,00:45:47
maybe you're not necessarily there yet.00:45:50
For that muscle that you're not there yet.00:45:52
So it's all really interesting stuff,00:45:54
but as far as the systemic recovery,00:45:58
I think there's a lot of
ways people talk about00:46:01
resting heart rate
measured in the morning,00:46:03
all different kinds of core temperature00:46:07
and things like that
that might become altered00:46:09
in a state of non recovery.00:46:12
But grip strength is very
much tied to performance00:46:16
and recovery.00:46:18
And when I was at the Mets,00:46:19
we used to actually take
grip strength measurements00:46:22
as a baseline in spring
training all the time.00:46:24
Now, obviously as a baseball player,00:46:25
you're gripping a bat, you're pitcher,00:46:26
you're gripping a ball like-00:46:28
Having good grip strength is important,00:46:29
so if you've noticed somebody
had a very weak grip,00:46:32
it's just a good focal point00:46:33
of a specialized training
component for the...00:46:35
- Would you use this
every day with those guys?00:46:37
- No, we would do, in spring training,00:46:38
we do sort of a baseline
entry level measurement.00:46:40
And then we would measure
it throughout the season,00:46:43
maybe once every two weeks or three weeks.00:46:45
And the idea there was
to manage the recover,00:46:50
measure the recovery.00:46:52
But I just gave it away, to
determine overall recovery,00:46:57
your grip strength is
pretty highly correlated.00:46:59
So we have found that
with one of those scales,00:47:01
those old fashioned bathroom scales00:47:03
at like the bathroom and
beyond, or whatever you can get,00:47:05
which by the way, almost impossible,00:47:07
I believe Jesse and I were
searching for the last scale00:47:09
to put in that video.00:47:10
And we almost couldn't find one,00:47:12
'cause everything is like
digital and everything.00:47:14
I'm looking at the old
fashioned dial controls.00:47:17
- It's like old Macintosh computers.00:47:19
There's a huge market
for them and old phones.00:47:22
Kids keep your phones now.00:47:23
In 30 years, the lame phone now00:47:26
will be worth a lot of money.
- It'll be worth a lot.00:47:28
So, I wound up finding
one, and it's a great tool00:47:34
for just squeezing the
scale with your hands00:47:37
and seeing what type of
output you could get.00:47:40
And I think we all can relate to this00:47:43
when you just visualize,00:47:45
imagine the last time you
were sick, or that when you,00:47:47
or just try this, the next time
you wake up in the morning,00:47:49
when you first wake up in the
morning, you're still groggy.00:47:51
Try to squeeze your hand,00:47:53
try to make a fist as hard as you can.00:47:54
You're going to sit
there angry at your fist00:47:56
because it won't contract
as hard as you know it can.00:47:59
You don't have the ability
to just create the output.00:48:02
And that is because in that
state, you're still sleepy,00:48:06
you're still fatigued,
you're not even awake00:48:09
the whole level at this point.00:48:12
Well, that is still an actual
phenomenon that happens that,00:48:19
a lack of recovery, or
lack of wakefulness,00:48:22
or whatever you want to say00:48:23
is going to lead to a
decreased output there.00:48:25
So when you start to measure
that on a daily basis,00:48:28
you can get a pretty good
sense of where you're at.00:48:29
And I think when people
start to see a drop off00:48:32
of 10% or so, or even
greater of their grip output,00:48:37
you really should skip the gym that day.00:48:39
Because I don't think there's
much you're going to do there00:48:40
that's going to be that beneficial,00:48:43
even if it is the day to train
legs or whatever day it is.00:48:46
- I love this tool, it's
simple, it's low cost,00:48:49
if you can find such a scale.00:48:51
I guess you could also find
one of those grippers that,00:48:53
and you could do this in a
very non quantitative way,00:48:55
but better would be a scale
where you could actually measure00:48:58
how hard you can squeeze this
thing at a given time of day.00:49:02
It draws to mind, just a
little neuroscience factor,00:49:05
in the world of circadian neurobiology,00:49:07
one of the consistent findings is that00:49:10
in the middle of your nighttime,00:49:12
they'll wake people up and
they'll say, do this test.00:49:14
In the laboratory they
use a different apparatus,00:49:17
but it's essentially the same thing.00:49:18
And in the middle of the night00:49:19
grip strength is very, very low.00:49:21
And mid-morning, grip strength is high,00:49:23
and as the body temperature
goes up into the afternoon,00:49:25
grip strength goes higher
and higher and higher,00:49:26
and then it drops off.00:49:27
There's this circadian
rhythm and grip temperature.00:49:29
So you probably want to do this00:49:30
at more or less the same time each day00:49:33
if you're going to use it. But it I think it's
brilliant in its simplicity00:49:36
and it's directness to
these upper motor neurons,00:49:39
'cause that's really what
it's assessing your ability.00:49:41
Again, it's about the ability
to contract the muscles hard.00:49:43
If you can't do that,00:49:44
you're not going to get
an effective workout.00:49:45
- Yeah, and they also, I mean,00:49:46
there certainly are more
sophisticated tools too.00:49:48
As PT, we have hand grip dynamometers,00:49:53
we can measure one side at a time too.00:49:55
I'm not really, I'm getting
a little bit blinded00:49:58
by the fact that both hands
are squeezing into that scale00:50:00
and I don't get really
a left right comparison.00:50:03
But even at that level, that could give you a
little bit more detail,00:50:05
but that comes with a cost,00:50:06
those are pretty expensive devices.00:50:07
But if it's, listen,
if you were an athlete,00:50:09
the $200, $300 it cost
to have one of those00:50:12
would be well worth the added investment.00:50:15
- And I'm sure some of our
listeners will want one too,00:50:17
'cause there are a lot
of tech geeks out there,00:50:20
not tech industry geeks, but
people who like tech gear.00:50:24
What's it called again?00:50:25
- It's a hand grip dynamometer.00:50:26
- Hand grip dynamometer.
- Dynamometer.00:50:29
Said by Jeff with a
great East Coast accent,00:50:32
and by me in a terrible
botched at West Coast version.00:50:36
Thank you, well, I'll put
that in the show notes also.00:50:39
Now I think recovery is key,
we always hear about sleep.00:50:42
You grow when you sleep and
incidentally your brain,00:50:45
you stimulate learning when
you're awake obviously,00:50:48
but the reordering of neural
connections happens in sleep.00:50:51
This is why sleep is
the way to get smarter,00:50:53
provided you're also
doing the learning part.00:50:55
The sleep's the way to get stronger00:50:56
provided you're also
doing the training part.00:50:58
You've had some really,00:50:59
you've put out interesting
content over the years00:51:01
in terms of even sleep position.00:51:04
One of the major changes that
I made to my sleep behavior00:51:08
is to not have the sheets
tucked in at the end of the bed.00:51:11
And I'll tell you,00:51:12
this had a profound
impact on several things.00:51:14
First of all, my feet have always been
the bane of my existence,00:51:16
broke them a bunch skateboarding.00:51:18
And I noticed when I'd
run, I'd get shin splints.00:51:21
And then I started to
notice that my feet sort of,00:51:24
you're the PT, they were kind of floppy,00:51:26
as if I was pointing my toes
slightly all the time at rest.00:51:30
And I realized that based on
listening to you previously,00:51:34
that my sheets were wrapped
tight, not hotel tight.00:51:36
- Right.00:51:38
- What their thing in the hotels.00:51:39
And I started releasing the
sheets at the end of the bed,00:51:43
and I also started doing
some tibialis work.00:51:45
Front of Shin's work
essentially, changed everything.00:51:49
My back pain from running
my shin splints disappeared,00:51:52
my posture improved,00:51:53
although my audience will tell me00:51:55
that it still needs improvement.00:51:56
They're always five or 10 people that-00:51:58
I've actually had chairs
sent to our mailing address.00:52:01
Very nice chairs, right?00:52:02
So I'm trying there.00:52:05
But this is fascinating, right?00:52:07
The position that one sleeps in,00:52:09
I fortunately have never
had any shoulder issues00:52:12
knock on wood, but maybe you could just00:52:14
talk to us a little bit about
sleep and sleep position00:52:17
for sake of waking position and movement.00:52:19
'Cause this, I think is a very unique00:52:22
and very powerful way
to think about sleep.00:52:24
This podcast has done
a lot of episodes about00:52:27
keeping the room cool,00:52:28
getting sunlight in your eyes, et cetera,00:52:29
how to get into sleep.00:52:31
But you've talked about physically,00:52:34
what positions might
be better to sleep in.00:52:36
So please, please enrich us.00:52:39
- I mean, first of all,00:52:41
some people's opinions of
that type of content is that,00:52:44
you sleep in the position
that's most comfortable00:52:47
so you ensure that you're sleeping.00:52:49
Oh great, I understand
that we all want to sleep,00:52:52
that's the goal when we
put our head on the pillow,00:52:53
is to actually fall asleep
and wake up in the morning00:52:55
and not know what the hell
happened, unless you had a dream.00:52:56
But you know beyond that,00:52:59
there are certainly physical
components to sleep.00:53:02
That is why a lot of times
people will wake up and say like00:53:05
that you can incur pretty
serious injuries in sleep.00:53:08
People will wake up and
have like a shoulder00:53:10
that did not bother them at all,00:53:12
be humming the next day
or even for weeks after,00:53:15
because of the one sleep
position they put themselves in,00:53:18
in a prolonged way.00:53:19
And they happened to have a deep sleep,00:53:20
even through the discomfort.00:53:22
That can do actually some damage.00:53:25
So it's understandable
that the body can incur00:53:28
some strain and stress if you're
sleeping in the wrong way.00:53:31
One of the things I say
right off the bat is,00:53:33
sleeping on your stomach00:53:34
just doesn't really have many benefits.00:53:36
You're putting yourself
into a position that is,00:53:40
depending upon the
orientation of your mattress00:53:45
or how many pillows you're using,00:53:46
but you're basically
putting yourselves into00:53:48
excessive extension of the lumbar spine,00:53:51
which for most people, isn't very good,00:53:53
if you're a disc patient, I
guess that might be helpful,00:53:57
for relocating the disc.00:53:59
But I mean, for the most part,00:54:00
your hands are then
usually not at your sides,00:54:03
but they're up under your arms,00:54:04
so you've got them into
sort of internal rotation up00:54:07
over elevation in your head.00:54:08
It's just not a great position.00:54:10
You also have to crank your
neck for one side or the other00:54:12
in order to breathe, or you're
going to your face down,00:54:14
straight into the pillow.00:54:15
So I would skip that one.00:54:17
And there's some people that
are total belly sleepers.00:54:20
And I would just say, listen,00:54:22
I don't think that is the most helpful,00:54:25
long term way for you to sleep.00:54:26
Try to adopt a different position.00:54:28
Sleeping on your side oftentimes is,00:54:32
is also brought along with that,00:54:34
the legs knees coming
up towards the chest,00:54:36
prolonged hip flexion.00:54:38
Listen, we're doing enough
of that during the day.00:54:40
- What we're doing right now.00:54:41
- We don't need to do another 10 hours00:54:43
or eight hours or something
at night like that.00:54:45
And it just is reinforcing,
and as we said too,00:54:49
let's say you trained that day,00:54:51
you're just reinforcing
muscle shortening overnight.00:54:54
Where the body is healing
and trying to create00:54:57
some changes in your body.00:54:59
One of the reasons why
I recommend stretching00:55:02
or static stretching
prior to going to bed,00:55:04
a lot of people don't really
want to do it at that point,00:55:06
'cause it could take 10
minutes, 5-10 minutes,00:55:08
depending upon how many
muscles you have to stretch.00:55:10
But it's good to sort of try to establish00:55:13
just longer length temporarily00:55:15
prior to going into a state where
you're going to be not moving00:55:18
and recovering and creating
new changes in the muscle.00:55:22
So, that kind of, I don't
say it doesn't rule out00:55:27
the side sleeper.00:55:28
The side sleeper could
be very, very helpful00:55:30
for somebody that has
apnea or other conditions.00:55:33
So again, it's not an
all or nothing approach,00:55:36
but it's something that you
need to pay attention to.00:55:40
When you are on your back,00:55:41
like you were talking about00:55:42
and your feet are wedged
underneath a tight sheets00:55:47
at the end of the bed.00:55:48
And most of us, unless we
consciously are pulling them up,00:55:51
don't prefer our beds to
have really loose sheets00:55:53
at the end of the bed.00:55:54
- It's hard to make
the bed in the morning.00:55:56
- So it's like you you're going
to want to have them tight.00:55:59
Well, I'm saying as you experienced,00:56:01
you're going to have these
prolonged plant reflection,00:56:07
that's going to likely lead
to shorter calves over time00:56:12
because you're lacking all that length00:56:14
for that long period of
time that you could have00:56:16
if you just loosened up the sheets00:56:18
and allowed your feet to
just hang out where they are.00:56:21
Now, the resting position of the ankle00:56:23
is not endorse reflection,00:56:24
it's going to be still
in some plain reflection,00:56:26
but not being driven down00:56:27
and pulled down into that position.00:56:29
And I think what happens
actually is people who get00:56:32
uncomfortable that way,
even in their sleep00:56:34
will shift away from that00:56:36
by turning either onto
their side of their stomach.00:56:37
So there's definitely an
impact of the body position00:56:41
and sleep in figuring out the best way00:56:43
that you can still sleep of
course, and get your rest,00:56:46
but have a mindful eye towards
what it's doing to your body00:56:49
and choose the one that's
least abrasive to your body00:56:53
is the way you should go.00:56:55
- That's terrific, and again,
it's really helped me and00:56:58
I'm a big believer based on good science00:57:01
out of Stanford and elsewhere that00:57:04
as much as we can be
nasal breathers in sleep,00:57:06
we probably should be.00:57:07
I don't know if you've
done any content yet about00:57:10
taping the mouth shut
with some medical tape,00:57:12
but you know the benefits
of nasal breathing in sleep00:57:15
are pretty tremendous,00:57:16
but it takes a little bit of
training for people to do,00:57:18
and the training is very simple.00:57:19
It's a little piece of medical tape.00:57:21
So again, a topic for another time.00:57:24
I'm glad you mentioned stretching,00:57:25
I was going to ask about
stretching a little bit later,00:57:26
but let's talk about stretching.00:57:28
When's the best time to stretch00:57:30
for particular types of results?00:57:33
And maybe you could define00:57:34
some of the different types of stretching.00:57:35
So you just mentioned a little bit of,00:57:37
what you call it, light stretching or?00:57:40
I'm completely naive here on stretching.00:57:43
So let me just say, I
can think of stretching00:57:45
where I hold the stretch and
really try and "lengthen"00:57:49
in air quotes folks, I don't
want the PTs jumping all over.00:57:52
I don't know what it is,00:57:53
but nutrition and the
PTs online are really,00:57:55
they've got pitchforks in both hands.00:57:57
Academics...00:57:58
- That's a recent evolution, I think.00:58:00
And not the nutrition as much,00:58:02
but the PTs have become a
little bit angry these days.00:58:04
- I see, well, I always say
with feelings of powerlessness00:58:06
comes aggression.00:58:07
Remember that folks.00:58:09
So in any case, they're
stretching where I'm00:58:14
trying to consciously
"lengthen," again in air quotes,00:58:19
the muscle I'm not yanking on the limb00:58:22
or bobbing up and down.00:58:23
Maybe you could define the
different types of stretching00:58:24
for people, maybe give
us some rough guidelines00:58:27
about what or not to do if cold or warm,00:58:28
before training, after
training, et cetera.00:58:31
- So, yeah, there's obviously00:58:32
there's a lot of different
types of stretching00:58:34
that could get even to P and F stretching00:58:36
and things that are a
little bit more niche.00:58:39
But in general, the two
basic forms of stretching00:58:42
are active stretching
and passive stretching,00:58:44
and your dynamic work.00:58:48
And your passive stretching is done00:58:50
with the goal of trying
to create an increase00:58:53
in the flexibility of the muscle.00:58:57
So whether you're actually
increasing the length00:58:59
of that muscle, more
so what you're doing is00:59:01
increasing the- or decreasing
the resistance of that muscle00:59:04
to want to stay at a certain
level of flexibility.00:59:07
So when we can sort of take the breaks off00:59:10
and allow that muscle to
allow us more range of motion,00:59:14
we're inherently increasing flexibility00:59:16
without necessarily having
to increase the length00:59:18
of that muscle.00:59:20
That is usually done at a time
far away from your workout,00:59:23
because they have shown where00:59:25
this type of stretching
done prior to an activity,00:59:28
and it could be like a
structured activity like lifting,00:59:33
or it could be a little
bit less structured,00:59:35
like competing in a sport
in a spontaneous type way,00:59:39
that there is a period of
recalibration that is needed00:59:44
after doing this,00:59:45
because you're disrupting the
length tension relationship00:59:47
of the muscle that causes
you to not necessarily00:59:51
be able to rely on these,
I've talked about before,00:59:54
stored motor engrams in
your mind in terms of,00:59:57
this is the pattern for how
I swing a golf club, say.01:00:00
And now introducing a
little bit of flexibility,01:00:03
or added flexibility, or range,01:00:05
because of the stretching I did before,01:00:07
it takes maybe a whole or two
or three to match up again.01:00:11
Oh, this is what he's trying to do,01:00:13
that golf swinging thing
that I remembered again,01:00:15
like it's not remembering
that every component,01:00:18
like I have to bend my
right wrist back 10 degrees,01:00:21
and then I have to bend my
elbow and I have to break,01:00:23
like your body stores these
patterns for motor efficiency.01:00:26
And when I have to start
matching up that stored pattern01:00:29
with what's feeling new
because of the increased range,01:00:32
I can impair performance.01:00:33
And again, it could happen
even in a gym workout01:00:36
where you're talking about your first,01:00:37
second set, third set,01:00:38
where maybe the
repercussions aren't as big,01:00:41
'cause I'll just do a few extra sets.01:00:43
But in performance, if you screw
up your first three rounds,01:00:45
you're playing on a PJ tour and you shoot01:00:46
your six over after three, you're done.01:00:49
So I think it matters there.01:00:51
As far as the dynamic, so we
relegate that as I mentioned,01:00:56
sort of towards the end of the day01:00:57
when it's not going to impact performance,01:00:59
but even maybe have the
additional benefit of creating01:01:03
the feeling of length or
the increase or decrease01:01:06
in resistance to this length01:01:08
at a time when I know
my body is going to try01:01:11
to tend to heal and heal shorter,01:01:13
never longer, but heal shorter.01:01:14
So if I can introduce a little
bit of that extra length01:01:17
or decreased resistance to that length,01:01:20
it's a better time to do it.01:01:21
So I think it promotes a better recovery.01:01:24
If I want to...01:01:26
- Sorry to interrupt, but so
stretching later in the day,01:01:28
because I'm intrigued by
this concept of heal shorter.01:01:33
So part of the healing
and recovery process01:01:34
means the shortening of the muscles.01:01:36
This is the tensing up in sleep. - Yes, yeah.
- Could you elaborate01:01:38
just a bit on that and then
sorry to break your flow,01:01:40
but then to continue...01:01:41
- No, just basically,
what's been shown is that,01:01:44
when the repair process,
muscular repair from,01:01:48
let's say strength
training during the day,01:01:50
the repair process usually
results in a muscle01:01:52
that is slightly shorter rather
than increased in length.01:01:56
It's just, muscles prefer to sort of01:01:59
ratchet their way down
into that contraction,01:02:03
and then maintain that more comfortable01:02:07
length tension relationship.01:02:08
So when you're sleeping,01:02:09
it tends to air on the side of shorter01:02:12
rather than longer, when ideally
we don't really want that.01:02:15
We want to maintain as much of that length01:02:18
because with more length, we
actually have more leverage.01:02:21
That muscle has more leverage to contract.01:02:23
If it was all the way contracted,01:02:24
you really can't obviously
we know generate much force01:02:27
in a muscle that's already
maximally contracted.01:02:29
So I think we want to do something
that we, whatever we can,01:02:33
whatever little weapons
we have in our arsenal01:02:35
that could allow us to
do this prior to sleep.01:02:39
And again, it's just making
it a conscious choice01:02:42
to do it at a time of the day01:02:43
that makes a little bit more sense.01:02:46
Dynamic stretching is really
not done for that purpose01:02:48
of trying to create any
type of feeling of act01:02:54
or increasing the potential length01:02:56
as you said of the muscle,01:02:57
but more so the readiness
of the muscle to perform.01:03:00
And increasing exploring the
ends of that range of motion01:03:04
in a more dynamic way so
you're not hanging out there01:03:07
in disrupting that length
tension relationship01:03:09
but just sort of touching
the ends of those barriers01:03:12
so that when you feel movement
again, it feels looser,01:03:16
it feels more ready.01:03:17
And obviously at the same
time warming up blood flow,01:03:20
all the benefits we get from
just warming up in general.01:03:23
So like that's the series01:03:25
you've probably seen a
bunch of times but like01:03:27
leg swings and butt kicks
and lunge, walking lunges01:03:33
and all types of-
- Toe touches.01:03:34
- Toe touches, all those kind of drills,01:03:36
those active stretching drills01:03:37
or lunging with rotations
for the upper body01:03:41
to try to get some of the
thoracic spine involved too.01:03:43
Those are the drills that
people will do prior to training01:03:46
that are both excitatory01:03:47
in terms of just the nervous system01:03:49
but also helpful for just
the general warm up the body01:03:52
'cause the blood flow.01:03:53
But from a muscle readiness standpoint01:03:55
not impairing the performance01:03:58
while at the same time
exploring the increased ranges01:04:01
'cause as you know the
first toe touch you do01:04:04
is not as high as the
last toe touch you do.01:04:05
- For me it doesn't even include the toe.01:04:07
- The shin touch.
- The touch attempt.01:04:10
- So like those are going to improve01:04:12
with each subsequent rep01:04:14
and I think that's what people actually,01:04:16
when you can see those,01:04:18
those actual changes from
rep one to rep seven,01:04:21
you just feel ready,01:04:22
you feel more alert and
ready to go in your workout.01:04:25
So the dynamic type of stretching
and I mentioned earlier on01:04:29
what I've had to do to sort
of increase my warm up focus.01:04:33
I think that's more of what
I try to do these days.01:04:35
I try to be a little bit
more alert to the fact that,01:04:39
my body's not ready.01:04:40
When I was working with
Antonio Brown I remember like01:04:42
he would spend 20 minutes, 30
minutes on all dynamic work.01:04:46
And I've never seen
anybody spend that long01:04:49
on their dynamic work.01:04:50
But like he said, he just
didn't feel right and ready01:04:54
to go unless he did a lot of that.01:04:56
And I mean his dynamic stretching routine01:05:00
would be a workout for most everybody.01:05:02
And it's crazy how much he did.01:05:04
- These pro athletes are amazing.01:05:06
And you've had the great
fortune of working with01:05:08
and improving their abilities.01:05:12
But I can only imagine01:05:13
'cause I also imagine he is
pretty strong in the gym also.01:05:16
- I mean, it always amazes me01:05:19
the guys that make it to that level01:05:20
no matter what sport they do.01:05:22
They're so gifted in everything.01:05:24
Like David Wright used to
make me laugh all the time01:05:27
with the Mets because no matter what I,01:05:31
Ping pong, like anything01:05:33
because of his hand-eye coordination.01:05:34
Like anything great at.01:05:37
Jump rope. I remember he hadn't
done a lot of jump rope01:05:39
and I think jump rope's
one of the best things01:05:43
you could do from a
conditioning standpoint.01:05:44
It's actually fairly
interesting, it's not just,01:05:47
it's not too harsh on the joints01:05:51
even though it's a ballistic
move and he wasn't-01:05:54
I have to admit, if he listens to this,01:05:56
he's going to want to kill me,01:05:57
but I was better at him at jump roping.01:05:59
One of the only things I could do.01:06:00
And then I gave him about five days01:06:02
and he completely blew me out of the water01:06:04
to the point where I could
never keep up with him anymore.01:06:06
He made it look effortless.01:06:08
It's like that's where the
athlete in someone comes out.01:06:11
No matter what they pick
up, they're good at it.01:06:13
And I think that when you
see guys like this in the gym01:06:15
like their strength levels
tend to be pretty damn good01:06:17
and their abilities, their
coordination, their everything01:06:21
just tends to sort of
be good at that level.01:06:22
And it sort of amazes me.01:06:24
Why those guys can go pick up
a golf club and go shoot 7201:06:28
and having never really played.01:06:30
They're just naturally
good at whatever they do.01:06:33
- Yeah, I have a couple,01:06:34
I'm smiling 'cause I have a
couple really close friends01:06:37
who did a number of years01:06:38
some several decades in the SEAL teams.01:06:40
And I don't know that their
skill level at everything01:06:43
is so high as you're
describing for athletes01:06:45
but their level of
competitiveness is beyond.01:06:48
I ocean swam with one,01:06:49
there's no chance that I'm
going to right out swim Pat01:06:52
ever, ever.01:06:53
He actually goes back and forth sometimes01:06:55
just to check up on
me, which I appreciate.01:06:57
Thank you Pat.01:06:58
I haven't drowned yet.01:07:00
But in addition to that,
we could play horseshoes01:07:03
and it's like this switch
that just flips on,01:07:05
like he's going to murder me.01:07:07
Of course he's a very nice guy, right?01:07:08
In general, they tend to be very nice.01:07:09
But the level of competitiveness
is kind of unreal.01:07:12
They're selected for it.01:07:13
- They're trying to beat themselves01:07:14
they're not even trying to beat you.01:07:15
- That's right, I'm not
even in the competition.01:07:16
- You're not even there.
- Yeah, exactly.01:07:18
Thank you.01:07:20
Now I won't feel so bad or worse.01:07:24
It's true, it's a remarkable thing.01:07:25
I'm glad you mentioned jump roping.01:07:26
I used to skip rope for warmup for boxing,01:07:29
like three minute rounds
or something like that.01:07:33
But I'm glad you brought it up because01:07:36
skipping rope is something that01:07:38
obviously has a cardiovascular component,01:07:40
there's the conditioning
component, there's timing01:07:42
and it is kind of interesting, right?01:07:44
It's frustrating when you don't get it01:07:45
especially when it whips you on the air01:07:47
if you're using a proper rope.01:07:48
I'm just curious if you
could just give us a quick01:07:50
skipping rope 101.01:07:51
Do you like to see people
jumping with both feet and toes?01:07:54
We'll link to a video if
there was one and I missed it.01:07:57
Do you like to see
people doing high knees?01:07:59
Do you like people
basically like shuffling?01:08:01
You want to see people doing double Dutch?01:08:03
What do you want to see
people doing over time?01:08:05
- All of the above maybe
not the double Dutch,01:08:07
but all of the above.01:08:08
I mean, I think that's the
cool thing about it, right?01:08:10
Like once we sort of master
the skill 'cause for all of us,01:08:13
that first jump with the
two feet going together01:08:16
is a challenge.01:08:17
'Cause you just got to time that rope,01:08:18
you got to time your jump01:08:19
and then we get bored as
we often do as humans,01:08:22
we get bored with what we can do01:08:23
and we want to take on new challenges01:08:24
so then it becomes one leg at a time01:08:26
or then it becomes side
to side hops, right?01:08:29
All of those things are
beneficial I believe01:08:32
neurologically to enhancing the ability01:08:34
to do the skill as a whole
but also just because01:08:38
I'm such a believer in
training in all three planes.01:08:41
So like just doing straight up and down01:08:43
versus now I can do frontal
plane side to side motion01:08:46
and then I can even do small little twists01:08:48
or core screws you call them.01:08:50
It requires a different,01:08:51
you would know more better than I do01:08:53
that it requires different
neurological patterns01:08:56
to be able to coordinate
that because you're changing01:08:59
the orientation of your body in space.01:09:00
So it's not just them
changing the exercise01:09:03
but I'm changing how my body
interprets that exercise01:09:06
because what's happening
to my body in space.01:09:07
So I love whatever people wind up doing,01:09:12
but I am amazed there are people,01:09:15
I just started following
this young woman on Instagram01:09:17
who is like, I'll give her a plug out,01:09:21
I think it's like @anna.skips or something01:09:22
and she is ridiculous.01:09:24
Like I watch her and I'm like mesmerized01:09:27
at what she can do with the rope.01:09:28
It's like is an extremely
athletic endeavor01:09:31
believe when it gets to be at that level01:09:33
and the speed and the precision and the-01:09:37
I think one of the goals that
you want to be able to have is01:09:39
to where you're feeling
as if you're almost01:09:42
effortlessly dancing without a rope.01:09:45
Like where you're just
bouncing off of the ball01:09:47
of your foot.01:09:48
And it's an important skill to learn too01:09:51
whether you go back to run
or even even jog, right?01:09:55
Just like more casual running,01:09:57
learning how to land is so important.01:10:00
One of the drills that
people should try is like,01:10:03
try to jump on your heels.01:10:05
So just stand up, pull your
toes off the ground, right?01:10:07
And just jump from your
heels and land on your heels.01:10:10
You'll feel it in your jaw.01:10:12
You'll literally feel your jaw rattle01:10:13
when you land on your heels.01:10:14
There is no shock absorption capabilities01:10:16
through your heels.01:10:17
Meantime, a lot of people
land on their heels a lot01:10:21
when they run and you're just,01:10:23
your body's not built to absorb the forces01:10:25
like the ball of your foot could.01:10:27
It's really built as a spring.01:10:29
And the foot is a, to me
as a physical therapist,01:10:31
the foot has always been
one of the most amazing,01:10:33
you talk about having
bad feet I have flat feet01:10:36
it looks like I got flippers
if I took my shoes off.01:10:39
Like I'm wearing scuba fins.01:10:41
There is no-01:10:43
There is no adaptability of
that foot to the surface.01:10:47
When it's completely caved
and flattened like that,01:10:50
the job of the foot is to be a adaptable.01:10:53
Well, maybe there is some adaptability01:10:55
because it's so floppy, but
at the same time at some point01:10:58
that critical junction when
you're going to then step through01:11:00
and you need to be able to push off01:11:02
the foot has to actually
changes in the midfoot itself01:11:05
to become a rigid lever
is what they call it.01:11:08
You're going from a mobile
adapter to a rigid lever.01:11:11
That rigid lever literally
locks up the metatarsal joint01:11:14
to become solid01:11:16
so that you can push
off of it with leverage.01:11:18
If you lack that capability,01:11:21
all those stresses that are
supposed to be born by the foot,01:11:23
go up into the ankle, into
the knee, into the hip,01:11:25
into the low back.01:11:27
So learning how to land and
start to train your body01:11:32
to experience ground
reaction forces the right way01:11:36
is so critical to all other function01:11:40
and all other disability
of the kinetic chain01:11:43
and jumping rope is like
one of the best ways01:11:45
to learn how to do that.01:11:46
- Great.01:11:47
I own a jump rope I love
doing it in the morning01:11:50
while I get sunlight in my eyes.01:11:51
It's actually a protocol I
picked up from Tim Ferris01:11:55
who mentioned 'cause
listeners in my podcast know01:11:58
I'm like a broken record with
get sunlight in your eyes01:12:01
even through cloud cover it's
just sets your sleep rhythms01:12:03
and your waking rhythms
of yada yada on and on.01:12:06
But sometimes it'd be
kind of boring for people01:12:09
and I want to get them off their phone.01:12:10
So jumping rope is also
just a great way to wake up.01:12:12
So jumping rope can be the cardio workout,01:12:17
the 15, 30 minutes.
- Definitely.01:12:20
And there's sort of that hybrid01:12:21
that we were talking about before of like,01:12:23
you're not necessarily
dropping down to the ground01:12:25
and doing burpees,01:12:26
but I just look at it as
a more athletic endeavor01:12:29
because of the coordination involved01:12:30
than just simply walking or jogging.01:12:33
- Yeah, and it's not much
of equipment requirement.01:12:36
Very minimal cost.01:12:38
You could even use a rope
or something if you...01:12:41
- We even instruct people
they could use no rope01:12:43
and just pretend and just
move the arms, right?01:12:46
- Truly zero cost.01:12:48
- You're never going to
hit the rope which is good01:12:49
but at the same time,01:12:50
So you're never going to know
if you're doing it wrong,01:12:51
but at least you can move through that01:12:53
and get the same benefits
through the feet.01:12:55
- I love it, I love it.01:12:56
I told myself before
sitting down with you today01:13:00
that I wasn't going to
focus on specific exercises01:13:02
because there's such a
wealth of incredible content01:13:05
that you put out there01:13:06
that people could just put
into YouTube or elsewhere01:13:08
and arrive at the proper
way to do a chin or a dip,01:13:12
for whatever purpose.01:13:13
But there's one exercise
and one particular motion01:13:16
that I'd like to discuss for a moment01:13:19
because I believe that01:13:21
learning about this
cautionary note from you01:13:24
is one of the reasons01:13:26
that I've maintained steady
training for 30 years01:13:29
with no major injury knock on wood01:13:33
and that's the upright row.01:13:35
One thing that whether
you weight train or not.01:13:38
- Do we censor this podcast?01:13:40
I mean censoring, do we
beep this out or not?01:13:41
- I do.01:13:43
Do you get beef about this?
- No.01:13:46
You know what, we always get beef01:13:48
in any social media platform
where we're put out.01:13:50
But like, no, I guess
some, I get some from it,01:13:52
but I'm fully prepared to defend myself.01:13:56
- But here's the reason
for asking about this.01:13:58
I never really cared much for upright rows01:14:00
it's not an exercise I tend to do.01:14:02
But one thing that's apparent
in all my colleagues,01:14:05
in every child I see, in
every adult I see is that01:14:08
almost everybody is in
inward rotation now.01:14:11
So folks think if you stay,01:14:12
I think I learned this from you also,01:14:14
if you stand up straight01:14:15
and then you just point your thumbs out,01:14:16
like a thumbs up but your hands are down01:14:19
you're pointing your thumbs straight out,01:14:21
ideally they would go straight out.01:14:23
Most people the thumbs01:14:24
are going to be pointing
toward one another01:14:25
because most people are starting
to look somewhere between01:14:29
a non human primate and a melted candle.01:14:35
Bent at the hips, et cetera,
from too much sitting,01:14:38
we're all sitting, we're
in an inward rotation,01:14:40
but I learned from you
that the upright row01:14:43
compromises some important
aspects of our shoulder mechanics01:14:48
and could be actually sort
of a dangerous movement01:14:50
in some ways.01:14:51
I'm sure there's a safe
way for people to do it.01:14:53
But so I've always made it a point now01:14:55
on the basis of this advice
to A, not do upright rows,01:14:59
but I wasn't doing them before01:15:00
but to really strive for external rotation01:15:04
on things like bench dips, on
a number of different things.01:15:07
Whenever I can I try and
go into external rotation01:15:09
provided that without looking
like an idiot walking around01:15:12
with my palms facing outward.01:15:13
Please tell us about
internal external rotation.01:15:17
The upright row is one aspect of that,01:15:20
but why this is so important
not just for weight training,01:15:23
but as in terms of posture and mechanics01:15:26
and not looking like a melted candle01:15:29
or partially melted candle.01:15:31
- I actually love it.01:15:32
I'm happy to talk about it
cause I love the shoulder01:15:36
as a joint.01:15:37
I think PTs tend to fall
in love with certain areas01:15:39
and the shoulder is one
of the cool areas for me,01:15:41
it's like the foot is but like,01:15:43
the shoulder has the most
mobility in the body of any joint,01:15:47
but it's also got the
least stability, right?01:15:49
There's always that trade off
of mobility and stability.01:15:52
So your stability comes
from certain muscle groups01:15:57
and 101 is that the only muscle group01:15:59
that actually externally
rotates the shoulder01:16:02
is going to be the rotator cuff, okay.01:16:03
And unless you are devoted to training01:16:06
through external rotation
and exercises that01:16:08
are going to externally
rotate the shoulder,01:16:11
you're not training that function.01:16:13
And it's so easy for us in everyday life01:16:17
especially those that aren't training01:16:18
to not ever really undergo
any of those stresses01:16:21
that could be beneficial to counteracting01:16:23
what happens freely and naturally,01:16:25
which is internal rotation.01:16:27
So when you think about
the imbalance created01:16:29
just by nature and how we live our lives,01:16:31
internal rotation far, far, far
outweighs external rotation.01:16:35
So you need to address it.01:16:37
And the reason why you need
to address it is because01:16:39
you need to normalize those
biomechanics to the shoulder01:16:42
if you want their long term health.01:16:43
And one of the functions of the shoulder01:16:45
is to raise our arm up over our head.01:16:47
And if we do that from an
internally rotated position,01:16:50
we're going to have a higher likelihood01:16:53
of creating stress inside that joint.01:16:55
Funny thing is I talked
about before my PT brethren01:16:58
who can be somewhat angry these days,01:17:01
I don't know what
happened, but fairly angry.01:17:03
They want to discredit the
existence of something like01:17:07
shoulder impingement,
which I don't know how,01:17:11
I mean, certain studies,
look, we both all read studies01:17:14
and studies will say one thing one day01:17:17
and potentially conflict entirely
in a different direction.01:17:19
Some studies will point
to the non-existence01:17:21
of a shoulder impingement.01:17:24
Meanwhile, we have thankfully
digital motion x-rays01:17:28
that will literally show the
impingement occur in real time,01:17:32
in real function.01:17:33
And that's one of the limitations
I'm off on a tangent here,01:17:35
but like those types of x-rays01:17:37
or that type of fluoroscopy
that we have nowadays,01:17:39
like gives us such insight
that we never had before01:17:41
'cause we're taking static x-rays01:17:43
of someone laying down on a table.01:17:45
Well, I want to see what happens01:17:46
when you actually raise my arm
up over my head in function01:17:48
and the tools now exist to do that.01:17:51
We see the problems occurring because01:17:54
in order to get normal mechanics01:17:56
and free up the joint maximally inside01:17:59
you need to externally rotate
as you raise the arm up.01:18:02
So if your muscles aren't firing01:18:04
and they're not necessarily as strong01:18:07
as the internal rotation
bias that pulls them in,01:18:10
you're asking for trouble
every time you do that.01:18:12
Well, this exercise is literally
putting you in elevation01:18:17
and internal rotation.01:18:18
And if you were to walk into
a PT office and someone said,01:18:21
"I think he's got impingement,
will you diagnose him?"01:18:23
There's a test called
a Hawkins Kennedy Test.01:18:25
And I would put you in the position01:18:27
I know we're not visible at
this point through the podcast,01:18:29
but I'll put you in this position here01:18:31
where I have your arm elevated01:18:33
and your hand pretty much under your chin01:18:35
pushing downward on that01:18:37
to create that internal shoulder rotation.01:18:39
Pretty much the exact
position that we're in01:18:40
when we're holding a
bar in an upright row.01:18:43
Some will say, well, just don't go so high01:18:45
going up to the level of the chest,01:18:46
but you're still in this
internally rotated position.01:18:49
The thing that I think
frustrates me the most01:18:51
about the exercise is
that I have an alternative01:18:55
and the alternative does the same thing01:18:56
in terms of helping the muscles grow01:18:58
by simply fixing the
biomechanics of the exercise01:19:01
by just allowing the hands
to go higher than the elbows.01:19:03
So instead of the elbows
being higher than the hand01:19:06
which drives you into internal rotation,01:19:08
if the elbow is lower than the hand,01:19:10
the hand being higher here,
I'm in external rotation.01:19:13
And I could do something
called a high pull01:19:15
and still get the same
abduction of the arm01:19:18
and still get the same
benefits of the shoulders,01:19:20
the delts and the traps01:19:21
without having to undergo
any of the stresses01:19:23
that would come from01:19:24
the somewhat awkward
movement of an upright row.01:19:27
- And for those listening,01:19:29
we'll put a link to a short
clip of what this looks like.01:19:31
But basically what Jeff is doing01:19:33
and tell me if I'm describing
this incorrectly or correctly.01:19:35
Jeff is taking your two thumbs
and pointing behind you,01:19:39
so elbows up kind of near the chin01:19:41
and pointing behind you
like, oh, headed that way.01:19:43
Like somebody directing the
airplane, like come back,01:19:45
come back and back.01:19:46
I forget what they call that.01:19:47
I think it's called semaphorin,01:19:49
is the action of like where
they direct the planes01:19:52
or something the flags or whatever.01:19:53
Someone will, of course tell
me I'm wrong about that too,01:19:55
which is why I say these things01:19:57
because I like being told
what the correct answer is.01:20:00
In any case, so this
replaces the upright row01:20:04
and probably does a number01:20:05
of other important things as well.01:20:07
- Well, again, listen, without
naming names or programs01:20:11
or anything like that. When I got involved in, when
I got involved in Athlean-X,01:20:15
when I first my online presence,01:20:19
there was a very, very,
very popular program01:20:23
that was out there that I just
for fun I wanted a as a PT,01:20:26
is the nerdy things we do,01:20:28
but I wanted to evaluate
the workout structure.01:20:32
And I went and I looked at every rep01:20:34
over the course of a week.01:20:36
And there was something
like 890 repetitions01:20:39
or something done01:20:41
and zero of them were
dedicated external rotation01:20:44
in the shoulder.01:20:45
So if you think about it, I mean,01:20:46
again, it was a very popular program01:20:47
that was done by a lot of people.01:20:49
There was no focus at all,01:20:51
no dedicated focus towards creating01:20:54
a balance to an action
that is so predominant.01:20:57
And remember, it's not just
because we sit with bad posture,01:21:00
but the fact that our chest
can internally rotate,01:21:05
our latch can internally rotate,01:21:06
there's like muscle, other
big muscles that participate01:21:09
in things that we do every day01:21:10
that will further internally
rotate the shoulder.01:21:13
The only weapons we have
for external rotation01:21:16
are those little rotator cuff muscles01:21:18
and three of them actually
three of the four.01:21:21
And the job is to sort of01:21:23
actively and consciously train them01:21:25
through really the
boring exercises, right?01:21:27
Like you've seen them with the band,01:21:28
you anchor a band to a pole,01:21:30
you stand with the band
in the opposite hand.01:21:33
So if it's anchored to
the pole on my left side01:21:35
I've got the band on my right side01:21:36
and you see people where they
kind of rotate their hand01:21:38
towards the back.01:21:39
Again, kind of what you were saying01:21:40
but at a lower elevation
taking the back of my hand01:21:43
and trying to point it
to somebody behind me.01:21:46
Well, that is one of the
ways to train the muscle.01:21:51
It's just a one function of the shoulder,01:21:53
external rotation of the
shoulder and you need to do it.01:21:56
And again, it's not that01:21:58
if somebody was doing more
external rotation work01:22:01
could they absorb the upright row better?01:22:04
Probably, because as
they elevated the arm,01:22:06
they probably have a little
bit more of a contribution01:22:10
from the rotator cuff to
what one of the functions is01:22:13
to centralize the head
of the humorous inside01:22:16
of the glenoid, the capsule.01:22:18
So as it rises up, it stays central01:22:22
as opposed to migrating up01:22:23
because the deltoid likes to pull up.01:22:26
So if the rotator cuff has
some ability to counteract01:22:30
the upward pull of a del01:22:32
then it can maintain a
more healthy relationship01:22:34
with overhead movement.01:22:35
So just realizing that that function01:22:37
is only gained through
doing these exercises,01:22:39
we would probably
dedicate more time there,01:22:43
the upright row might be
better absorbed by that person01:22:46
'cause they have a
little bit more strength.01:22:48
But again, why?01:22:50
Because if you have an exercise
that does the same thing01:22:52
for what you're trying to do muscularly,01:22:54
to build the muscles that it affects,01:22:56
why wouldn't you just do
it where you can still see01:22:58
actually pick up more
repetitions of external rotation?01:23:02
So you're getting none of
the harm all of the benefits.01:23:05
I see zero reason to
ever do the upright row01:23:08
and people will argue, this
is the way they argue that,01:23:11
I've done this for 30 years
and I've never hurt myself.01:23:13
And I always say yet, yet.01:23:16
Like, listen, the goal is
to not hurt yourself ever.01:23:21
So even if you, it's sort of
like the championship game.01:23:25
You might play the game of your life,01:23:27
but if you lose you lost.01:23:28
And when you get into the
end of the record books,01:23:30
you still lost.01:23:31
So even if you had the
game in your life you lost,01:23:33
I don't care if you do
it for 30 years, no pain,01:23:35
you're still doing it and there's no pain01:23:37
I'm giving you an option01:23:39
that's going to give you the same results01:23:41
in the exercise that you're seeking.01:23:42
That's why you're doing the exercise01:23:44
without the possibility of
having the the bad outcome01:23:47
come from it.01:23:48
So I get a little bit
defensive of the move,01:23:52
but I feel like it's like,
why would you do that?01:23:54
- No, it makes me say,01:23:55
being able to train for a long
period of time and feel good.01:23:59
I'm proud to say and I don't have01:24:02
the kind of genetics where
like we don't have a lot of01:24:04
impressive athletes in our
family tree or anything.01:24:06
It's some fit individuals
some less fit individuals,01:24:09
but I really believe it's about putting in the
work consistently over time.01:24:12
And the more often you can
wake up not in pain the better.01:24:16
And so I think that being
in external rotation01:24:21
as often as possible is good.01:24:22
This is actually a good friend
who's a yoga teacher told me01:24:25
this is also a problem with the yogis,01:24:27
all the downward dog stuff.01:24:28
For those listening,01:24:29
you can think of inward
rotation as like thumbs down.01:24:32
Just think thumbs down
and rotation isn't bad01:24:35
but less thumbs down more
thumbs up is external rotation.01:24:38
So for those just listening,
maybe that gives a visual.01:24:41
The more exercise you can
do in external rotation01:24:43
the better it seems on average.01:24:47
I'd love to chat with you
just a little bit more about01:24:50
biomechanics, and this is a
personal thing that again,01:24:56
your content really helped solve for me.01:24:59
One is I thought I had lower back pain,01:25:01
that I had sciatica so
badly that on a few trips01:25:05
Work trips years ago01:25:07
when I was doing a lot
more international travel.01:25:09
I mean, it was hard to stand up sometimes.01:25:11
I mean like excruciating pain.01:25:13
I didn't want to take medication,01:25:14
I didn't want to do back surgery.01:25:15
In the end, turns out it
wasn't a back injury at all.01:25:19
And one of the things that
helped fix it was this01:25:23
just learning about this
thing called the medial glute.01:25:26
And you had a video that
said fixed back pain01:25:29
and then you quite accurately say that01:25:31
some back pain isn't really
about the back at all.01:25:34
And had me do an exercise or
allowed me to try an exercise01:25:39
where I lay on my side and
essentially pointing my toe down01:25:43
the top toe down, almost
like pointing a toe down01:25:46
and then would slowly lift the leg up01:25:49
while pointing the toe down.01:25:50
Maybe I got it...
- No, you got it good.01:25:52
- And then holding that,01:25:53
and there's a muscle that sort of sits01:25:55
at the top of the glute01:25:56
it kind of peaks out
every once in a while.01:25:57
You can feel it there with your thumb,01:25:59
which is I think you had push back on it.01:26:01
A bit creating that mind muscle link again01:26:04
and there with proprioception,01:26:06
the actual feeling of a
muscle literally with a limb,01:26:10
we know based on the neural
circuits for movement,01:26:14
that that enhances the
contractibility of a muscle.01:26:17
So like if you touch your bicep,01:26:18
you literally can contract
it more more strongly.01:26:21
And this makes total sense based on01:26:23
neuromuscular physiology.01:26:26
So had me do that repeatedly.01:26:28
And I started doing that in my hotel room01:26:30
and the pain started to disappear.01:26:32
And then it came back again the afternoon01:26:33
so I did it again in the afternoon.01:26:35
So this is something I
did for three or four days01:26:37
and lo and behold a back pain's gone.01:26:39
I handed this off to my father01:26:42
because he like me has a
slightly lower right shoulder.01:26:44
I think that our gate is
probably thrown off by this.01:26:47
It's probably a genetic thing, who knows.01:26:49
He handed off to somebody.01:26:51
It turns out that we don't
suffer from back pain01:26:54
and in fact, now I don't
suffer from any pain01:26:56
because I was doing this exercise01:26:58
which I think is helping my medial glute.01:27:00
Two reasons why I raised this.01:27:02
One, I know a lot of guys who
have this right side sciatica01:27:05
'cause people keep the
wallet there is one idea01:27:08
or left side sciatica.01:27:09
There are a lot of people male and female01:27:12
who think they have back pain01:27:13
when they don't actually have back pain.01:27:14
And the other thing is that01:27:15
is a general question about biomechanics01:27:18
or statement about biomechanics.01:27:19
I had of a feeling01:27:21
that a lot of what people
think is back pain or knee pain01:27:24
or neck pain or headache or shoulder pain01:27:26
is actually the consequence
of something that's happening01:27:31
above or below that site of pain.01:27:33
And this is a whole landscape
of stuff related to PT01:27:38
and recovery and pain management.01:27:40
But maybe if you could just
educate us a bit on this01:27:43
and why this works, what
is the medial glute?01:27:46
Why did it make my so-called
back pain disappear?01:27:48
And how should people think about pain?01:27:51
And I'd like to use this as a segue01:27:52
to get into a little bit deeper discussion01:27:54
about pain and recovery.01:27:55
- Sure. So this is definitely like a
big cornucopia PT stuff here,01:28:00
but like and this is what I love.01:28:02
So first of all, that video,01:28:04
it's my proudest video that I have.01:28:07
And the reason being is that
it's helped so many people.01:28:10
Like we get comments on
that video every day.01:28:14
I don't even know how
many views it's got now,01:28:15
30 some what million.01:28:17
- We will link to it.
- There's a lot of views.01:28:19
And quite honestly,01:28:22
it was a little bit of
an afterthought video01:28:24
in terms of it's origin.01:28:27
I think that that day maybe
Jesse was having some problems01:28:31
or something like that, a
little bit of low back pain01:28:32
and I showed him and it helped
right away and he was like,01:28:35
well, we can make a video on it01:28:36
'cause this will help people.01:28:38
Not everybody, if you
have a real disc problem,01:28:40
it's not going to help01:28:42
because you're not changing
the structural problem01:28:44
that's there.01:28:45
But as you said, a lot of people don't01:28:48
and even disc issues a lot
of them are non-operative.01:28:51
So you'd want to try these things first.01:28:55
As far as what you're sort of experienced01:28:57
sometimes as that glute
medias really tightens down01:28:59
and that's again, from poor biomechanics01:29:02
up and down the kinetic chain,01:29:03
it can actually press on the sciatic nerve01:29:06
and give you what they
call a pseudo sciatica.01:29:09
Where it's not like you're making it up,01:29:12
it's not like you're not feeling that pain01:29:14
over that same sciatic distribution,01:29:16
but it's not caused from a disc,01:29:18
it's not caused from
something mechanical there,01:29:20
it's caused by the fact that this gluteus01:29:23
has posturely become a
problem for you or weak01:29:27
because you don't train it
and you need to address it.01:29:30
So, unlike any other muscle in the body,01:29:34
there are common trigger
points in common areas where01:29:37
the muscle will become
tightened or painful or spasmed01:29:41
and you can basically apply
pressure to these areas01:29:46
and then sort of thread that
muscle through the pressure01:29:50
by pushing down through there and then01:29:52
contracting the muscle which is why01:29:54
you go through that action of,01:29:56
I think we call it toast stabber,01:29:58
but like stabbing down and lifting up01:30:00
and stabbing down and lifting up.01:30:01
Taking that glute medias
through its function.01:30:04
So it's basically kind of working01:30:06
underneath the downward
pressure of the finger01:30:08
and that tends to help
you to almost need out01:30:13
what might be that trigger point.01:30:15
And that's why people can
see immediate relief there01:30:18
because once the trigger
point lets go, it feels like,01:30:22
and that's what the
comments are in that video.01:30:23
Like my God, I literally, I couldn't walk,01:30:25
I've been on my hotel floor,
I did this and I'm fixed.01:30:29
And meanwhile then it could come back01:30:31
because your body is like,01:30:32
well, I like being more like this.01:30:34
This is how I've been ingrained to be.01:30:37
So it might come back01:30:38
but then when you do another round of it01:30:40
and another round of it and
then finally it starts to say,01:30:42
all right, I'm not going
to do that anymore.01:30:43
It kind of eases up and
you can relieve yourself01:30:45
of those trigger points.01:30:46
You could do that up and down the back.01:30:49
There's other people that get that01:30:50
and that sort of inside
their shoulder blade,01:30:53
that same type of
cramping in another area.01:30:56
But once that takes place,01:31:00
well, then the job that
I think people have01:31:02
is like become educated that01:31:04
the glute medias is different
than the glute maximus.01:31:06
Like their functions are different.01:31:08
You have to work on not
just extending the hip01:31:12
but also abduction of the hip.01:31:14
External rotation of the hip,
same thing as in the shoulder.01:31:17
And this actually segues nicely into what,01:31:19
into the whole concept
you were talking about.01:31:20
Like the body is like a mirror image.01:31:22
The hip is like the shoulder, right?01:31:24
The ankle is the wrist.01:31:26
The foot is the hand.01:31:27
The knee is the elbow,
they're two hinge joints,01:31:30
they function that way.01:31:31
Well, with the shoulder, you've got that01:31:33
mobility that comes from having
all that freedom of motion01:31:37
but the stability is lacking.01:31:38
Well, the same thing with the
hip, like you've got mobility,01:31:41
but if you don't fully stabilize it01:31:43
by training all the muscles of the hip01:31:45
and if you don't strengthen
the external rotation01:31:48
of the hip, then you're
going to have issues.01:31:52
Like it's not biomechanically
going to work the same way.01:31:55
If you think of the body
as a series of bands01:31:58
pulling in different directions01:32:00
at different levels of tension,01:32:02
you're being pulled into
one direction or the other01:32:05
just by the balance of tension01:32:07
from one weak area to one
dominantly tight area.01:32:11
And you need to make sure that01:32:12
you can sort of balance this out01:32:14
in order to eliminate
some of the adaptations01:32:16
and compensations that happen.01:32:18
So what I say, when we look at
sort of the body as a whole,01:32:25
most often wherever
you're feeling the pain01:32:28
is absolutely not to blame.01:32:30
There's not to blame.01:32:31
It is somewhere above or
below as you hint to that.01:32:34
You're talking about, the knee
is my favorite example of it.01:32:38
Whenever you have knee
pain, patella tendonitis01:32:41
which I have forever.01:32:43
I've had bad, bad cases
of tendonitis where01:32:45
squatting is very difficult for me.01:32:47
It's not the knee, the knee is
literally a hinge joint that01:32:52
there's minor rotation
capabilities in the knee01:32:54
but it's a hinge joint.01:32:56
And it's being impacted
by the hip and the ankle01:33:00
and the foot, as I said before,
how critical the foot is.01:33:03
If you thought of the knee being01:33:06
like the middle of a train track,01:33:08
where the femur down your thigh01:33:10
and your shin down below your
knee, where the train track,01:33:13
well, what would happen if the
foot collapses at the bottom?01:33:16
All of a sudden that
train track on the bottom01:33:19
gets torqued just a little bit.01:33:21
Well, who's going to feel that the most,01:33:23
the area where it's torquing,
which is at the knee.01:33:25
So the stresses are going to be felt there01:33:27
meanwhile the problem is the foot01:33:28
or the problem is the ankle.01:33:30
People that are chronic ankle sprainers01:33:32
are almost always going to
wind up having back pain01:33:35
because the ankle sprain causes weakness01:33:38
in mal adaptations in the ankle01:33:39
that then gets connected
through the chain.01:33:41
Because now once I distort
the ankle and the shin,01:33:44
now the knee is trying to maintain01:33:47
its ability to hinge smoothly.01:33:49
So it toques on the femur to do that.01:33:52
Well, the femur is now
inside the hip joint01:33:53
pulling on the pelvis and
the pelvis is out of whack.01:33:56
It's really is fascinating.01:33:58
Like it's one of my favorite things about01:34:00
how the body works is like
how interconnected it is01:34:04
and how one little thing somewhere01:34:06
causes repercussion somewhere else.01:34:08
And the easiest way to find
out what your problem is,01:34:12
is to say, okay, I know
where my symptom is,01:34:14
but I got to find someone who can help me01:34:16
find the source somewhere else,01:34:17
because it is going to be
usually either above or below.01:34:20
Mostly, usually below01:34:21
'cause it usually translates
up the kinetic chain.01:34:23
But usually it's going to be
below where the real source is.01:34:26
So people with low back
pain usually have hip issues01:34:30
weaknesses, tightnesses,
flexibility issues,01:34:32
it's almost always below.01:34:35
When you get into really high
performance athletics though,01:34:38
it almost works the other way.01:34:40
Like where we have pitchers, who can't,01:34:43
I'm always fascinated by guys
that have Tommy John issues01:34:47
in their elbow, right?01:34:48
Pitchers.01:34:49
Like if you can't externally
rotate the shoulder01:34:53
that we talked about, again,01:34:54
the ability to get your shoulder back01:34:55
into external rotation.01:34:57
Well, your arm has to
get to a certain position01:35:01
for release of the baseball.01:35:02
And if it can't get there,01:35:04
if you can't externally rotate
the shoulder to get there01:35:06
then the elbow has to sort of torque more01:35:09
in order to allow the
arm to get back further.01:35:12
And it will try to take
some of that motion01:35:15
from a joint that's not really,01:35:16
again, it is the hinge joint,
really capable of doing that.01:35:19
So it starts to stress
that media level ligament01:35:22
to get a little bit further back01:35:23
because the shoulder's not working01:35:25
and that just ultimately
places strain on the elbow.01:35:27
So when you see a guy that has pain01:35:31
that floats around, a pitcher
that floats around their arm,01:35:34
all that is is sort of this
balance of compensation.01:35:36
Once his elbow starts hurting,01:35:38
then he can't get the
range from the elbow,01:35:41
so he tries to dig a
little bit further back01:35:44
into external rotation01:35:45
and then the rotator cuff gets inflamed01:35:46
and then he feels that's inflamed,01:35:48
and by the way, during that time period,01:35:49
it takes some of the strain off the elbow01:35:51
so the elbow feels better.01:35:52
Then he decides, okay, now
I got the extra rotation,01:35:55
but I'm getting too much of that01:35:56
so now he starts straining the elbow again01:35:58
and then keeps going through this cycle.01:35:59
So your body is very smart01:36:03
and it's going to compensate
every single time.01:36:05
It's going to find the compensation01:36:07
but there's no guarantee
that that compensation01:36:08
doesn't leave you with a
whole host of other issues.01:36:11
- Yeah, it's fascinating.01:36:12
In another lifetime, I
would've gone and been a PT01:36:15
although it sounds like the
community among PTs online...01:36:18
- I don't know what they,01:36:19
listen, we're good people but it's like...01:36:21
- Yeah, scientists and neuroscientists01:36:22
can get into pretty intense battles.01:36:24
Coming from the academic community,01:36:26
the etiquette is so different
online because I would say,01:36:29
I think in person01:36:30
people would probably
behave a bit differently.01:36:31
- They shake your hand and say, hello.01:36:33
- Yeah, they shake your
hand and say, hello.01:36:34
And there's also, look, I'll
just be very direct about this.01:36:39
There are a lot of people online for whom01:36:41
their only content is pointing
out the misunderstandings01:36:45
or alleged flaws of other people.01:36:47
It's like the bulk of their identity.01:36:49
Which to me is sort of a sad existence01:36:51
but there's always more
to gain by thinking about01:36:54
what's possible, and
what's new and what's good.01:36:56
But teach their own demise or win.01:37:00
- I mean questioning what's
out there is healthy,01:37:03
it's normal, is great, it
actually sparks conversation.01:37:05
But as you said, some people's existence01:37:08
is solely to find things to nag about01:37:11
and not actually with the goal
being to advance anything,01:37:14
but rather just to.01:37:16
- Yeah, in the world of science01:37:18
being skeptical but not
cynical is encouraged.01:37:22
But I always say that01:37:23
the longer that somebody's
in a career path01:37:26
that's certainly in science or medicine01:37:27
and they realize how hard
it is to do various studies.01:37:31
Once they publish a few studies,01:37:33
generally they sort of get
a better understanding of01:37:36
how the various things are done.01:37:38
In any case, along the lines
of pain and pain relief01:37:44
and misunderstandings about the
origins of pain in the body,01:37:47
one of the great tools that
I picked up from your content01:37:50
which is benefit I know a
huge number of people is01:37:54
I think I used to hold weights01:37:55
sometimes in the tips of my fingers01:37:57
as opposed to in the meat
or the palm of my hands.01:38:00
And I had elbow pain.01:38:01
And I always thought that,01:38:02
I felt it most on tricep
exercises and pushing exercise01:38:05
and I thought I was doing
those exercises wrong.01:38:07
Turns out toward the end of
my pull ups or my bicep work,01:38:11
I was letting the weight or the bar01:38:12
drift into my fingertips.01:38:14
And the mere shift01:38:16
to making sure that my
knuckles were well over the bar01:38:19
or that the weight was really
in the meat of my palms01:38:22
has completely ameliorated that01:38:24
for reasons that you point out01:38:26
and maybe you could just
share with us why that is01:38:27
you have this kind of
finger pull exercise.01:38:30
Usually when someone says, pull my finger,01:38:32
it's like a bad middle school
or elementary school joke...01:38:34
- Yeah, we would say push your finger.01:38:36
- [Andrew] Right, right.01:38:37
- You know this is fascinating.01:38:38
This is because it just shows again01:38:40
how intricate the body is01:38:42
and how responsive or
over responsive it can be01:38:44
to something so little.01:38:45
And what you're talking about
is that when you grip a bar01:38:50
whether it be through a curl
or whether it be through-01:38:52
And this is mostly
pulling exercises because01:38:55
the tendency for the bar is going to be to01:38:57
fall out of your hand not
like with a pushing exercise01:38:59
where it's kind of you're
pushing your hand into the bar.01:39:01
So on a bench press say.01:39:04
That bar can drift just
by gravity doing its thing01:39:08
or fatigue of the hand grip strength.01:39:12
Can start to drift further
away towards the distal digits.01:39:16
Through those last couple knuckles01:39:18
that we have on our hands.01:39:20
And though our hand can
still hold it there,01:39:24
the muscles are not equipped
to handle those types of loads.01:39:28
And that can start at a very,
I'm not going to say light,01:39:31
but like it could start
at dumbbell weight.01:39:35
40 pounds, 30 pounds, even
25 pounds or something01:39:38
depending upon their
overall strength levels.01:39:40
But then when you start to
apply it to something like01:39:43
your body weight with a chin up, right?01:39:46
'Cause that's natural for
the bar to somewhat kind of01:39:49
float down towards your fingertips.01:39:50
And it actually is a little bit easier01:39:53
to perform the exercise with
that sort of like false script01:39:56
little hook grip at the end01:39:58
because you're not going
to engage the forearms01:40:00
into the exercise, you're not
going to start pulling down.01:40:03
But at the same time while it
could help you to perform them01:40:07
better by getting the back more activated,01:40:10
if you have weakness in these muscles.01:40:12
'Cause it's not a thing
that happens to every,01:40:13
it's not one of those
upright road type things01:40:15
where I think this is
happening to everybody.01:40:18
This is happening to people01:40:19
that have these inherent
weaknesses in these muscles.01:40:23
You or haven't done enough of the gripping01:40:25
in the meat of the hand for long enough01:40:29
but it starts to put that
stress on these muscles01:40:33
that are ill-equipped to
do this and to handle this01:40:35
and it starts to it's particularly
on that fourth finger,01:40:38
which is part of the
muscle we call the FDS,01:40:41
a flexor digitorum that is
just too much for it to handle.01:40:45
And that comes all the way down01:40:46
and meets right at the media level.01:40:48
Right on that spot that you can say01:40:50
feels like someone's knifing
you right in the middle01:40:51
in that medial level.01:40:53
And medial epicondylitis or
they call it golfers elbow01:40:56
is something that a lot of
us deal with in the gym.01:40:59
It's one of the most common
inflammatory conditions01:41:02
people get from the gym01:41:03
and it all comes from this
positioning of the dumbbell01:41:07
or barbell or hand on a
pull-up bar over time.01:41:10
So the easiest thing to
do is just grip deeper01:41:13
so that what you're doing is you're using01:41:15
more leverage from the
palm to encapsulate the bar01:41:19
or the dumbbell or whatever01:41:20
and you're not putting that
pressure really distally01:41:23
right on that last digit01:41:25
because that's where that
FDS muscle is most strained.01:41:29
So you just almost eliminating
that from the equation.01:41:33
And it's one of those exercises that01:41:36
the load can exceed its
capacity pretty quickly.01:41:39
So that like, maybe it's only
capable of handling 30 pounds01:41:42
and then when you're doing a chin up01:41:44
and it goes and it drifts so far01:41:46
that it's now you say
you're a 200 pound guy01:41:49
you've got let's say 100
pounds through one arm01:41:51
and 100 pounds, this is simplified math01:41:54
that obviously is offset by other muscles,01:41:55
but 100 pounds to one arm
100 pounds to the arm,01:41:58
100 pounds off of a
muscle that can handle 3001:42:00
is not going to take many
repetitions to strain it01:42:03
and you're going to feel that maybe01:42:05
by the time that a set's over01:42:06
or certainly by the time that
workout's over or the next day01:42:08
you wake up and you've got
that notable stabbing pain.01:42:11
Whenever someone feels that01:42:12
the best thing would be to determine,01:42:15
okay, what exercises would
I do that were pulling01:42:18
and where the bar could
have drifted deeper01:42:19
or further from the meat
of my palm into my fingers01:42:24
and figure out a way to deepen that grip.01:42:26
When that happens though,
the best thing to do01:42:28
with most of these inflammatory conditions01:42:30
is not do any of that
stuff for a little while.01:42:33
Not ever, just for a little while.01:42:35
There's always things
that you can do around it.01:42:37
I'm not saying ever do I say,
like, don't go to the gym01:42:40
or don't find something you can do,01:42:41
but I'm saying that particular exercise01:42:44
that you feel the pain
on while you're doing it,01:42:47
never a smart idea to do that
exercise when it's inflamed.01:42:51
If you are doing exercise and it hurts,01:42:53
you probably shouldn't do the exercise01:42:54
because another reason01:42:57
for the variability of exercise is01:43:00
there's so many other
options that you can do01:43:02
that will train similar
muscles or even the same motion01:43:05
and not cause that stress.01:43:07
So, I mean, a cable curl would
be much easier to do that on01:43:11
than let's say a chin up01:43:12
where you don't have the
control over the weight01:43:14
like you do by moving a pin on a stack.01:43:16
So I think that is a common
thing that people find01:43:21
and the best thing to
do is just figure out01:43:23
how deep you gripping in that bar.01:43:25
You're going to find that, oh
my God, I didn't realize that01:43:27
because it was just.01:43:28
Even though you might start
a set in a good position01:43:30
and then it drifts away as you go.01:43:32
- I think that's what was happening to me01:43:34
and I'm very conscious of this now.01:43:35
Again, for me, I haven't
had this elbow pain at all.01:43:40
- [Jeff] That's great.
- Very fortunate.01:43:42
So again, a debt of
gratitude to your never-01:43:45
I thought there was some
wrong in my elbow, basically.01:43:47
And I thought maybe it was tennis elbow01:43:49
I don't even play tennis.01:43:50
There you go.01:43:52
Other aspects of recovery
and variables for recovery.01:43:57
I think you and I both
put out content about01:43:59
the use of cold and I think
we can summarize it by saying,01:44:02
yeah, it does seem like
cold water immersion01:44:04
immediately after hypertrophy
restrains workouts01:44:07
might be a problem,01:44:08
but a cold shower is
probably not a problem.01:44:09
What about heat?01:44:10
Do you personally use
heat and cold saunas,01:44:15
hot baths, hot compresses.01:44:17
And by you, I mean you
personally and athletes01:44:22
that you coach or people that you coach,01:44:25
what are your thoughts on
the use of heat and or cold?01:44:28
- Well, I think it might
just be an inherited practice01:44:32
from the days of trainers
of since babe Ruth.01:44:36
But we in baseball01:44:38
we used a lot of cold
following performance.01:44:40
Just because the idea would be01:44:43
there is some especially pitchers,01:44:45
there is some inflammation
that is abnormal.01:44:48
The arm is not really
designed to do what they do01:44:50
especially at the speed that they move it01:44:53
and everything else. So we would use ice as a
pretty standard practice01:44:56
after that.01:44:58
But not a lot of heat
and use a lot of heat01:45:01
and of course from the
recovery or the healing aspect01:45:04
that actually becomes
rather personal preference01:45:08
they've found now after let's
say the first 12 to 24 hours01:45:13
where you're really trying
to control inflammation01:45:15
of what might be an injury.01:45:17
But then it can kind of
shift the personal preference01:45:19
because the heat can bring
blood to the area also01:45:22
and then the cold has its sort
of antiinflammatory effects.01:45:27
So like there's a balance between01:45:29
which one's working better for you.01:45:30
So there's really no standard anymore01:45:32
for heat or cold in that way.01:45:34
But from a standpoint of like
post-workout healthy status,01:45:39
I haven't used much heat or
cold in terms of what we do.01:45:42
We cover the topic of the cold showers01:45:44
and to try to dispel the myth of the,01:45:47
even people saying that there's
giant testosterone releases01:45:50
and you know all kinds of stuff that.01:45:52
Listen, we hear all kinds of things01:45:53
'cause people want-01:45:55
I think the idea of just
turning the water cold01:45:58
and being in it for 30 seconds01:45:59
and then all of a sudden01:46:00
magically growing three times your size01:46:02
is intriguing for a lot of people01:46:04
and that's why they ask these
questions 'cause they're like,01:46:05
well, that would be a hell of a lot easier01:46:07
than going to the gym and training hard.01:46:09
But like, I'm always
fascinated by some of the stuff01:46:12
that you talked about.01:46:13
In fact, we started to talk
about some of the stuff01:46:15
in terms of cooling and what
it can do on performance01:46:18
and that was like there's
some untapped territory there01:46:22
that I think you're finding out about.01:46:24
- Yeah, what would be fun
would be to bring the CoolMitt01:46:27
technology from Stanford.01:46:28
This is Craig Heller, my
colleague Craig Heller's lab01:46:30
at Stanford's done really
important and amazing work01:46:34
in this area but then it
moved on to some other things.01:46:36
He's also working on down syndrome01:46:38
and he works on a number of
other really important topics01:46:40
that scientists often do.01:46:42
But I have access to
this CoolMitt technology,01:46:44
no relationship to the
company, by the way,01:46:46
would love to come out to your facility01:46:47
and we can do the blind type studies.01:46:52
- Like the blue blocker test.01:46:53
- Yeah, exactly, exactly.01:46:54
And see how that goes in with somebody01:46:59
as advanced trained as you01:47:00
that's probably the best thing to do.01:47:02
So content for the future.01:47:04
Yeah, I think heat and cold01:47:06
are kind of staples in the PT world01:47:08
and it does seem like people
use them slightly differently01:47:11
but they are kind of the macro
nutrients of recovery there01:47:15
along with sleep.01:47:17
I do have a question about
precision of record keeping.01:47:23
Do you keep a training journal?01:47:25
Do you recommend people
keep training journals?01:47:27
Are you neurotically fixed
to cadence of movement01:47:31
and are you looking at the,01:47:32
do you have a buzzer going off01:47:34
when it's 90 seconds rest.01:47:35
Is it 90 seconds rest?01:47:36
I confess I have my slow
workouts and my faster workouts.01:47:40
And they scale with whether
or not I'm training heavier01:47:42
with longer rest.01:47:43
Or whether or not maybe
midway through a workout,01:47:46
I'll shift over to doing
higher repetition, lower rest.01:47:48
This is kind of my crude
way of keeping time.01:47:53
But I'm not-01:47:54
Will be just to kind of watch the clock.01:47:56
But I'm not neurotically
fixed to the buzzer01:47:59
nor am I on social media
during my workouts.01:48:02
Which is actually a way
to really improve workouts01:48:05
is to just not be on social media.01:48:08
- I can't claim that
I'm not guilty of that.01:48:10
Sometimes I am on social media01:48:12
but sometimes I'm trying
to post something.01:48:13
- Well, that's different,
it's your profession.01:48:15
It's your profession.01:48:16
- But I mean, I'm not necessarily chained01:48:24
to some sort of protocol
in terms of how I do.01:48:27
I think by this point I've
been doing this a long time01:48:29
and not only is it something
that I've done for a long time,01:48:31
but it's a passion of mine,
it's something I really enjoy.01:48:33
So I probably inherently have01:48:36
the ability to stick to these guidelines01:48:39
in terms of rest time
to know what I lifted.01:48:44
Even six months ago on
a lift and how it felt01:48:48
without journaling it.01:48:49
But I recognize the value
it has to a lot of people,01:48:52
it goes back to that whole
my muscle connection idea01:48:55
that we talked about in the beginning.01:48:57
Like there's a lack of awareness01:48:58
for all aspects of training.01:49:00
And especially maybe it isn't
like your interest level.01:49:03
We're talking you and I
from a position of interest.01:49:07
Like this is what we do.01:49:08
We enjoy just how our bodies work01:49:10
and understanding how they work.01:49:12
Some people don't care, they
just want the end result.01:49:14
But journaling and keeping track of that01:49:17
raises awareness to where like,01:49:18
oh my God, I have been on Instagram01:49:21
for the last seven minutes01:49:22
and I was supposed to be back
at my next set in 90 seconds.01:49:26
Like there is a training effect of that.01:49:28
Like if you're training
for a metabolic overload,01:49:32
you've blown that opportunity
because you haven't,01:49:34
your rest time very
important to that protocol,01:49:38
working as it should.01:49:40
If you were training for strength,01:49:42
maybe the extra few minutes
doesn't matter so much01:49:44
when you get back under
the bar you might find,01:49:46
you might find that it's a
better response for your body01:49:49
to rest even longer than you've been told01:49:51
three, four minutes, five minutes.01:49:52
And so that way maybe it helps,01:49:54
but I think that anything you can do01:49:57
to increase your awareness
of your performance01:50:00
and also give yourself
some objective goal.01:50:04
Whenever we have an objective goal,01:50:05
it's a lot easier to actually obtain it.01:50:07
When you're just there to get a pump01:50:09
and you're just there to
lift how you feel that day,01:50:13
you have to be incredibly disciplined01:50:15
in all other aspects of your workout01:50:17
in order to make that effective.01:50:18
And I've done that too.01:50:20
I've actually been able
to do that too, but again,01:50:22
the level of repetitions I've accumulated01:50:25
over the course of my
life in the amount that I01:50:27
read about this stuff.01:50:30
I think I'm able to get away with that,01:50:31
but I think more often
than not what I'm doing is01:50:35
not journaling but journaling in my head01:50:38
exactly what I think
people should be doing01:50:40
and that is getting a specific effect01:50:42
from what you're trying to do.01:50:44
It's not so haphazard.01:50:45
You want to get a specific effect01:50:47
just like any other
experiment that you're doing.01:50:49
If you're doing an
experiment on your own body01:50:51
with your own weight, which to me is one of the
most empowering things01:50:54
someone can ever do.01:50:55
When they get bitten by the bug01:50:57
for exercising and in training01:51:00
and I like to use the word
training rather than exercise01:51:02
'cause there's a purpose behind it.01:51:03
But when they get bitten
by that training bug01:51:06
and they start to see
actual changes and results,01:51:08
you know how empowering that
is 'cause we can't change,01:51:10
we can't really control that
many things in our life,01:51:12
unfortunately.01:51:13
And if there's some
things that happen to us01:51:15
that we really wish never happened.01:51:16
And those are not something
that we can do anything about,01:51:19
but this is one thing that
we can do our best to.01:51:22
We can't avoid disease entirely,01:51:24
we can't predict when we're going to die,01:51:25
we can't do those things,01:51:27
but we can certainly decide to
show up into the gym that day01:51:31
and get a workout in or go
for a run or do something01:51:33
and in by doing that, you're
giving yourself I think,01:51:36
a better chance at a
higher quality of life.01:51:38
So anything you could do to
increase your awareness of it01:51:41
and keep you on track with that
is like I'm endorsing fully.01:51:44
- Couldn't agree more,
I could not agree more.01:51:48
There is a topic it's
sort of a dreaded topic,01:51:50
but I think it's an important one01:51:51
and that's the topic of nutrition.01:51:53
And rather they get into
specific meal programs,01:51:56
which would take take
hours and probably wouldn't01:52:00
even manage to scratch the
surface even with hours.01:52:02
We could talk about
principles around nutrition.01:52:06
What are sort of the themes that01:52:09
you think people should keep in mind01:52:10
when thinking about how to
eat generally and pre-training01:52:17
and post-training are two
particularly sensitive times01:52:21
for most, or at times that
people want to know a lot about.01:52:24
What should they eat before training01:52:26
or can they train fasted?01:52:27
What should they eat afterwards?01:52:29
But just in general, what
do you think are some axioms01:52:32
of nutrition that really hold.01:52:35
And I ask this 'cause,01:52:37
not because there's a
lot of debate about this,01:52:40
but because you've been
around this space a long time01:52:43
and you've seen what
works for you obviously01:52:46
but for other people too.01:52:48
What tends to work?01:52:50
What tends not to work?01:52:51
And how should we think about nutrition?01:52:54
- I mean, look, you've
touched on it a bit but like,01:52:58
nutrition can be a touchy
subject for people.01:53:00
And I understand where that comes from.01:53:02
I've talked about before that
there's a dogmatic tendency01:53:07
to nutrition, and there's a reason for it01:53:08
because it's an area
that people struggle with01:53:12
more than anything else.01:53:13
And the reason why people
struggle with nutrition01:53:15
is because the commitment
is extremely high.01:53:19
You could start a workout program01:53:21
and actually get to the gym
three to five times a week.01:53:24
That's five hours01:53:26
based on how you and I
were discussing it before.01:53:28
Well, what about the other 23
hours of each of those days.01:53:31
There's opportunity to eat
incorrectly or unhealthily01:53:36
every one of those hours.01:53:37
People wake up in the middle
of the night to go eat.01:53:39
Like there are things that you can do01:53:42
that can cause amazing amounts of damage01:53:45
to your longevity in the 23 hours01:53:48
not the 1 hour, the 23 hours.01:53:50
So when people finally figure out a way01:53:54
to make that work for them,01:53:56
it's very passionate and I
understand their passion.01:53:59
I do like I've put out, so my
approach, my approach is like,01:54:02
I've always been sort of a
low sugar, lower fat guy.01:54:06
I've made the mistake of
going no fat years ago01:54:09
and I paid for it.01:54:10
I was like in college and back in the day01:54:12
we were the same age.01:54:13
We read all the magazines
and that was what we had.01:54:16
We didn't have an internet then. So we were reading magazines01:54:18
and the recommended
path was to go low fat.01:54:22
It helps you to become
hypo caloric very easily01:54:25
because the density of the
calories in a gram of fat01:54:29
versus a gram of carbohydrates or protein01:54:31
is nine versus four for
the carbs and protein.01:54:34
So if you're cutting out
grams of fat on a daily basis,01:54:37
you're quickly cutting out calories01:54:39
that allows you to get leaner.01:54:40
Well, of course as everything,
I mean, if little is good,01:54:44
then a lot is better.01:54:45
So I would cut all of them
out or almost all of them01:54:48
and at the age of 22, 21,
I'm like standing at a stop01:54:54
up at University of Connecticut01:54:55
waiting for the tram to
come and bring me to campus.01:54:58
And I couldn't even open my eyes01:55:00
because the light was blinding to me.01:55:02
It was normal sunlight.01:55:04
It was blinding to me,
the photosensitivity I had01:55:07
learning later on after a few more courses01:55:09
that I took there in biology01:55:11
how necessary fat was for the
development of healthy cells.01:55:18
I realized what was going on01:55:21
and not to mention other
stuff skin was bad,01:55:23
hair was falling out, all kinds of stuff.01:55:25
So I think that the
approach to decreasing fat01:55:31
so it's not excessive,01:55:33
because again how
calorically dense it could be01:55:34
in having lower sugar.01:55:36
I'm a firm believer in
sugar is really pretty toxic01:55:39
and something that we would
all do better getting rid of01:55:43
a lot of it.01:55:44
That is the best approach
for, I believe, again,01:55:48
in my opinion, personally,
for the overall big picture.01:55:52
Because though the people can
take exclusionary approaches01:55:55
to nutrition and taking carbs out or01:55:58
eating only fats and proteins, or again,01:56:02
I'm not saying it doesn't work for you.01:56:03
And if it's the first thing
that actually allowed you01:56:05
to gain control of your nutrition01:56:06
to the point where you
actually saw results01:56:08
and got to a healthier
weight, then I always say,01:56:10
then do it, then do it.01:56:11
But just make sure it's
something you can do forever01:56:14
and doesn't bring upon
other repercussions.01:56:17
But I think that non
exclusionary approaches to diets01:56:21
are the most sustainable
for the rest of your life.01:56:25
And all I'm interested in
from a nutrition standpoint01:56:28
is something that's sustainable.01:56:29
So when I preach what I preach,01:56:30
I've been doing this since I was 15, 14.01:56:35
People say like, how's he
get so ripped? How's he get?01:56:38
I have been doing this for four-01:56:40
For how many years? 30 years.
- Eating clean low sugar.01:56:44
- Yeah, 30 years.01:56:45
And the beginning it was
a slow shift I had to make01:56:49
where I was like,01:56:50
I went from the worst
diet in the whole world.01:56:53
Even when I was 14 years
old, my breakfast was,01:56:57
I talked about this so
many times, but Entenmann's01:56:59
I would eat Entenmann's donuts and...01:57:01
- Those long rod-
- Yeah, the long [indistinct]01:57:04
- They even took the
hole out of the donut.01:57:07
- [Jeff] Exactly.01:57:08
Why would you delete
the middle of the donut?01:57:11
- The crumb donut there.01:57:14
I would eat donuts...
- I can taste it in my-01:57:16
I don't like sugar very much01:57:17
but over the years I've
lost my appetite for sugar.01:57:20
But as you talk about the entiments01:57:21
I can literally smell
and taste the frosting.01:57:24
And to me now it's disgusting01:57:25
but back then it might
have been appetizing.01:57:27
- You would probably have
like really good information01:57:29
on this, but like my ability
to actually remember,01:57:33
they've said smell is very
evoking of memories, right?01:57:37
- So smell is unlike the other senses01:57:39
because there's a direct line literally01:57:42
from our sense of smell to the
memory centers of the brain.01:57:44
It doesn't have to go through
any intermediate stations.01:57:46
- Okay, so my ability to actually recall01:57:50
exact taste of all the
stuff that I used to love01:57:53
is enough to satisfy me to not
engage in those things now.01:57:59
As crazy as that is.01:58:00
Like I almost get my
feel through remembering01:58:03
'cause of these strong senses of memory01:58:05
of what it was like,01:58:06
'cause oh, that used to taste so good.01:58:07
Okay, that's good, I had it so...01:58:08
- Fantastic.01:58:09
We know the neuromodulator
there, that's dopamine.01:58:13
Your ability to get the dopamine release01:58:15
from the thought of some things.01:58:17
Most people when they get
that dopamine release,01:58:20
it causes a triggering
of the desire for more.01:58:23
- [Jeff] for more. - Right, people think
of dopamine as pleasure.01:58:25
Dopamine, there's a
book, great book called,01:58:27
"The Molecule of More."01:58:28
I didn't write the book
unfortunately, but someone else did01:58:31
and it's a great book
and it's really about01:58:33
how dopamine we think it's about pleasure,01:58:35
but it establishes craving.01:58:36
So you're able to satisfy that01:58:38
and it is a very adaptive
thing for you because01:58:40
you are indeed very lean01:58:42
and that's one of your
kind of hallmark things01:58:45
as a professional who does
this in the public space01:58:48
that's important when people
are out there talking about01:58:50
getting lean and you look
at them and you're like,01:58:52
maybe you need to do the protocols.01:58:55
It's a huge advantage
but yeah, I think that,01:58:58
it sounds like you've cultivated practices01:59:01
around avoiding certain things.01:59:03
- Yes.01:59:04
But not avoiding certain
things that I think01:59:07
are easily avoided if
you realize that there,01:59:12
I think that we have enough
science and literature out there01:59:14
to prove that the altered
path is a better path.01:59:17
You know what I mean?01:59:18
Like I feel like if I was just doing it01:59:21
because I wanted to be lean,01:59:22
I'm not quite sure it
would've held for so long.01:59:25
- Well and we have a
guest that whose episode01:59:28
has been recorded for this podcast01:59:30
who runs an eating disorder clinic01:59:32
at the University of Pennsylvania.01:59:33
Medical school, studies binge
eating disorders, anorexia,01:59:36
OCD and he will go on record in obesity,01:59:39
and he will go on record saying that01:59:41
these very highly palatable
processed high sugar foods01:59:45
of the sort that we're talking
about, donuts and so forth,01:59:48
that they are actually dangerous, right?01:59:52
That there are elements01:59:53
of the way that they
engage neural circuitry.01:59:55
He's a neurosurgeon that reshape the brain01:59:58
in dangerous ways.02:00:00
And those are his words and...02:00:01
- Yeah and it's not just entiments.02:00:03
I mean, I think not just entiments right?02:00:05
Yeah, they're coming after
us, with what, with donuts.02:00:09
- [Jeff] Exactly.02:00:11
- Yeah, they can't catch us.02:00:12
- [Jeff] True, true.02:00:14
- In any case.02:00:16
So in terms of what you do eat,02:00:18
how do you structure that in terms of,02:00:21
when you look down at a
plate you've done this,02:00:23
described this before,02:00:24
but I think it's just a
beautifully simple description02:00:26
'cause I think a lot of
people don't want to do02:00:28
calorie counting and all this and02:00:30
how should people think about what to eat?02:00:34
- So yeah, I have like
what I call a plate method02:00:37
and it's just simple
'cause it works for me.02:00:40
And again, if you're struggling
with real eating issues,02:00:45
these mechanisms become
admittedly less effective02:00:49
because you're having02:00:50
maybe you have emotionally
triggered eating02:00:52
and you can't stop at one plate.02:00:53
I mean that you could get the plate right02:00:55
but if the portions are out of control.02:00:57
- Plate has a dimensionality of height?02:01:00
- Or multiple plates like
second and third plate.02:01:03
- Or fourth.02:01:04
- Like then all these
things can be challenged02:01:07
but what I say is when you have your plate02:01:10
then you just simply look
at it as like a clock.02:01:15
And if you just make a 9:20 on the clock,02:01:19
so one arm goes over to the 902:01:22
and one of the arms goes over to 20.02:01:24
Well, then you're basically...02:01:25
You're going to take the
second largest portion of that02:01:28
'cause you're going to make a
line towards 12 o'clock too.02:01:31
And the largest portion is going to be02:01:33
your fibers carbohydrate.02:01:35
So that's the green vegetables, right?02:01:38
So whether it be broccoli or
Brussels sprouts, or asparagus,02:01:41
or pick your favorites.02:01:45
Like those are the ones02:01:46
that give us a lot of the
micronutrients we need,02:01:48
they're the ones that are generally02:01:50
accepted as more healthy02:01:52
and they're also going
to provide the fiber02:01:54
that's going to be both beneficial02:01:56
in terms of its impact on insulin02:01:58
and also just through
filling you up, right?02:02:01
And then I take the next
largest portion of that02:02:04
and I devote that towards protein.02:02:06
And I think it's really important02:02:07
especially for anybody active,02:02:09
the more active you are02:02:11
the more you embark on
trying to build muscle02:02:13
you're going to need to
have protein in every meal.02:02:15
So I have that. And again, you know, here we're talking02:02:17
cleaner sources of protein.02:02:19
But like, you'll never find
like boiled chicken on my plate.02:02:22
Like I ditched those days
when I was 16 or 15 or 16,02:02:25
like I realized after reading
those body building magazines02:02:28
that maybe the low fat
thing stuck for too long,02:02:31
but the no fat thing stuck for too long,02:02:33
but the boiled chicken
and a steam broccoli thing02:02:38
that ended quickly for me02:02:39
'cause I really I'm not
going to eat this forever.02:02:41
So I'll have some sort of fish or chicken02:02:44
but it'll be cooked in a way that's like02:02:48
it's got maybe some sauce on it02:02:49
or it's got some maybe it's tomato sauce.02:02:52
Anything to just make it a
little bit more palatable02:02:54
and interesting without
blowing the value of the meal.02:02:56
And then that last portion02:02:57
is where I put my starchy carbohydrates.02:03:00
And again, that's the part
that some people will say02:03:01
exclude them entirely
'cause they're not healthy02:03:03
or they don't work for you02:03:04
or they're not beneficial long term.02:03:06
For me it's been a God sent.02:03:08
And I do think I'm like most people02:03:11
my body craves those carbohydrates.02:03:13
I choose things like sweet
potatoes which is my favorite02:03:17
or I'll have rice or I'll have pasta.02:03:21
I'm Italian so I like pasta.02:03:22
And like I will have those
things, I'm not excluding them,02:03:25
but I don't put them in the portions02:03:26
that you would generally find.02:03:28
My wife and I will go out02:03:30
and we'll go to the restaurant sometimes02:03:32
because we travel quite a bit02:03:34
or used to at least with baseball too.02:03:36
There's a cheesecake
factory everywhere you went02:03:38
and I love cheesecake factory,02:03:39
but like the way they structure meals is02:03:42
it's all rice at the bottom,02:03:45
and a little bit of chicken on top.02:03:46
And I mean, it's a plateful of rice02:03:48
that you wouldn't find
me make a plate that way.02:03:50
I'm going to just devote
that portion of the plate02:03:53
to the starchy carbohydrate.02:03:54
And so it gives me a little
bit more responsibility02:03:57
in terms of portion control
'cause those are the foods,02:03:59
again, probably dopamine driven that are02:04:03
most easily over eaten.02:04:05
I always ask the question,02:04:06
what's the last time you ate
10 chicken breasts at a meal?02:04:09
Like you're getting sick of
it after maybe two or three,02:04:12
but you could eat a whole hell
of a lot of carbohydrates,02:04:14
starchy carbohydrates02:04:15
because the they're just so satisfying02:04:18
and I think those triggers,
as you said, to want more,02:04:20
like that's what happens, right?02:04:21
You just keep eating, even
when you're feeling full,02:04:23
you want more.02:04:25
And that's the biggest
danger to carbohydrate.02:04:27
So if you can develop some
sort of discipline around them,02:04:32
then you can still enjoy them.02:04:33
If you can't develop that
discipline for whatever reason,02:04:37
then maybe they do become something02:04:38
that you have to work yourself around02:04:39
or adopt a different eating style.02:04:41
And as I said, I'm
never to the point where02:04:43
I'm not trying to be
dogmatic in my approach.02:04:45
I'm always trying to
say, this is how I do it02:04:48
and I'm a believer in it02:04:49
just like everyone else's
believer in their method,02:04:51
but I'm open to the idea that
something that works for you02:04:55
and gets you to a healthier
weight and a sustainability,02:04:58
like that is good, that's good for me.02:05:01
Provided doesn't introduce other issues.02:05:05
- Something one can do consistently,02:05:06
that's something I picked
up from you over the years.02:05:10
What can you do consistently?02:05:11
And for me, that also meant,
when, and how can I eat?02:05:14
What can I eat consistently02:05:16
that will also allow me
to be alert after lunch02:05:18
so I can actually get some work done.02:05:19
Or eat, I like to train
fasted in the morning02:05:23
but I don't do any long term fasting.02:05:24
It just so happens that I'm
fine doing water and caffeine02:05:28
in the morning and training in the morning02:05:30
and then I eat my first meal afterwards.02:05:32
But I get carbohydrates at night02:05:34
so my glycogen is restored.02:05:35
I think carbohydrates are wonderful.02:05:37
I just don't eat them in excess.02:05:39
So to me, I feel like when02:05:41
what you describe as a very rational02:05:43
literally balanced approach.02:05:45
And obviously there will be variations02:05:46
for people who are dealing
with obesity or diabetes.02:05:51
I've got friends that are
on the pure carnivore thing,02:05:53
I have friends that are vegan02:05:54
and it's always impressive to me02:05:57
when somebody can stick
to anything consistently02:06:01
except when they're sticking
to just poor behavior.02:06:04
'Cause there's nothing
impressive about that.02:06:06
Well, I think that's very helpful02:06:09
because I think there's,-02:06:10
For the typical listener of this podcast,02:06:13
the online content that people see,02:06:16
the battles are very confusing.02:06:18
They're distracting.02:06:20
Because people really think, oh, that there's a right
way and a wrong way02:06:22
and it sounds like the way that one can02:06:24
eat consistently over time that's healthy.02:06:28
Certainly fewer processed
and sugary foods,02:06:30
I think almost everybody agrees there.02:06:32
- Yeah, almost everyone
agrees on that, right?02:06:34
So I think it's calorie manipulation02:06:37
through some other method.02:06:39
So even intermittent
fasting, like you said,02:06:42
like that could be, it's
for people that are grazers.02:06:46
Like if you are a grazer02:06:48
and your real problem is portion control02:06:49
over the course of the day,02:06:51
but you can respond to a rule that says,02:06:53
no, you're eating between here and here,02:06:56
that you can obey that rule.02:06:58
Well, you're not going to be able to graze02:07:00
during the times that you might
be doing additional damage.02:07:02
So sure there's other hormonal benefits02:07:06
that people will talk
about from that approach.02:07:08
But from a longevity standpoint02:07:10
and habit forming standpoint,02:07:12
if it's fixing the habit that
you're breaking too often02:07:16
by eating throughout02:07:17
whenever you feel like you
walk by food, it's good02:07:21
and it works.02:07:22
And again, if people can, will tell you02:07:25
you can probably eat
whatever you want to eat02:07:27
as long as you're eating
within that window.02:07:29
But I think the more responsible people02:07:31
who are practitioners of that will say,02:07:33
no, you still want to
avoid processed sugar02:07:35
and things like that.02:07:37
And that's just a mechanism
of eating not really a diet.02:07:40
But like it's I think that people-02:07:43
I hate to be as like as
basic as it sounds with that02:07:47
but it's for the exact reason that02:07:49
if it it's that 23 hour day
phenomenon that it's like,02:07:53
you said you're impressed,
it is impressive.02:07:55
It's so hard to control
all of our behaviors02:07:58
and food being one of the hardest thing.02:07:59
One of the biggest temptations for people.02:08:02
You got to learn how to
control that for so long02:08:04
and then do it day after day after day,02:08:06
whatever that mechanism is that
works for you is impressive02:08:11
and I'm a believer in it.02:08:15
I think that's how I feel.02:08:17
I just feel like the
people need to be able02:08:19
to be given some reigns02:08:20
to be able to find what works for them.02:08:23
- Well, I love to eat02:08:24
and one of the beauties of weight training02:08:26
is I feel like I can eat plenty for my age02:08:29
and I'm not as lean as you are,02:08:30
but I'm happy with where I'm at.02:08:33
I could always do better.02:08:34
With each year actually I'm getting better02:08:37
probably because I'm eating cleaner.02:08:39
Probably 'cause I also have
someone to cook for me now.02:08:41
And we like...
I have that too.02:08:44
- We like healthy food
and so I'm very fortunate.02:08:46
I don't think we have any
packaged food in our home.02:08:49
We even started making sauerkraut
at home, I don't make it.02:08:52
I mean she makes it.02:08:53
- My wife actually she turned me on02:08:56
to a tip that I actually
shared with the whole channel02:08:59
which was like, you can go to,02:09:03
we have a Stew Leonard's around
our big grocery store chain02:09:06
around us and they have
a catering department.02:09:08
And they're often used
for catering big parties02:09:11
and big tubs of grilled chicken,02:09:13
but like really good grilled chicken.02:09:15
Again, not the boiled chicken02:09:17
and big tubs of sweet potatoes.02:09:19
And we'll get a bunch of those02:09:22
and she'll go over and she'll get them02:09:23
and then she'll sort of
arrange them on plates02:09:26
and put the plates in and like,02:09:28
I'm okay with repetitive eating.02:09:29
I think more people are probably
okay with repetitive eating02:09:32
than they think.02:09:33
I think that when you actually break down02:09:35
how many different breakfast
variations, do you have?02:09:38
Three, two.02:09:40
- Two or three maximum.02:09:41
- So like, I think when the
people do there's more variety02:09:43
for dinner probably but like02:09:45
even there you probably eat
five different types of dinners02:09:48
over the course of a week or a month.02:09:50
Well, if you have that ability to identify02:09:54
the things that you like, and
again, no plan is going to work02:09:56
if you're eating stuff you don't like.02:09:58
It's not going to work
forever, nothing will,02:10:00
you have to really enjoy
what you're eating.02:10:01
As long as these variations of this meal02:10:05
are something that you really enjoy02:10:07
and there are limited versions of them,02:10:10
the reproducibility of that is simple.02:10:13
It will take some time but
if you're fortunate enough02:10:16
in our case to have somebody
who can prepare it for you,02:10:18
now that's even part out of the equation.02:10:20
And it just makes it very simple.02:10:23
But I do think when you tally up02:10:26
all the costs of medical care02:10:28
that are spiked by having poor nutrition02:10:31
and you then offset that
by what it might cost you02:10:36
to invest in a faster strategy
like this catering trick02:10:39
or whatever it might be,02:10:40
you'd be best off figuring out a way02:10:42
to maybe reallocate some of your money02:10:44
to preparing this because
how important it is02:10:47
to your long term health and longevity.02:10:49
If you can figure out
your nutrition issues,02:10:52
if everyone listening to this podcast02:10:53
can figure out their nutrition issues,02:10:55
this whole world will be different.02:10:57
That is like one of the
largest sources of disease,02:11:00
and pain and discomfort02:11:02
because people really
struggle with nutrition.02:11:04
- Yeah, and it's a huge problem.02:11:05
I mean the obesity, it is
an epidemic in this country.02:11:09
It's a very, very serious.02:11:11
Also a lot of highly processed
foods are more expensive02:11:14
than healthier foods when
you really break it down.02:11:17
Even the better sourced high quality foods02:11:21
are right there on par less
than the processed foods02:11:24
for sure.02:11:27
But couple other questions
as it relates to training.02:11:31
Because I think that one
thing that a lot of people02:11:35
wonder about and maybe we could do this02:11:37
in kind of a true false method02:11:40
just to get through some of these...02:11:43
- 50/50 I'll get it right at least.02:11:44
- Exactly.02:11:46
Men and women should train differently.02:11:48
- The science of it will say false.02:11:53
And again, not to generalize,02:11:54
but kind of the point you
touched on earlier today.02:11:57
I do find that casually
interested women in training02:12:02
will migrate more towards
certain types of fitness,02:12:06
like kickboxing, like dancing, like,02:12:09
- Low rest circuit type.02:12:10
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.02:12:11
And I think, again,02:12:12
whatever is that you are
going to engage in regularly02:12:15
is what you should do.02:12:17
Physiologically, no.02:12:18
And I think if we can get more women02:12:20
to feel more comfortable in the gym02:12:23
performing the same
exercises and the same,02:12:26
in receiving the same
strength training benefits02:12:29
and working on progressive
overload and like,02:12:30
we've hit the holy grail.02:12:32
But I think that it's a big bridge02:12:35
that has to be gapped still02:12:37
because there's just some reality to-02:12:41
Listen, there are very, my wife
is a perfect example of this02:12:46
living a very complicated busy life.02:12:48
We have two young boys they're twins02:12:51
and her attention and focus is there.02:12:55
And it's like, she doesn't do
this for a living like I do.02:12:58
And if she can get a decent
workout and she's happy,02:13:02
but she's not necessarily
working on her deadlift PR.02:13:05
And so I think that that
would help her and serve her02:13:09
in the long term to work
on increasing her PRs,02:13:13
and different lifts and building
her strength progressively.02:13:15
But in her life right now is
not necessarily in the cards02:13:19
to have the time to focus on that.02:13:21
So would you then discourage02:13:23
this other thing that she
might find interesting,02:13:25
like some boxing.02:13:27
There was a little, I
don't remember the brand,02:13:31
but like one of those
punchable boxing standup things02:13:34
and she enjoys it.02:13:35
Like anything to get you
moving is going be preferable02:13:40
but I don't think that
necessarily physiologically02:13:43
there's a difference.02:13:44
- You started weight
training pretty young.02:13:46
- Yeah.02:13:47
I messed around with my brother02:13:50
'cause he was older, he
was four years older.02:13:51
So I was kind of messing
around with weights probably02:13:53
12 or 13 with a 5 pound dumbbell.02:13:55
- Yeah, you hear that young
kids shouldn't work out02:13:58
with the weights.02:13:59
I don't know what the going standard is.02:14:00
Now they say, shuts down long
bone growth or growth plates02:14:03
this sort of thing.02:14:05
You've got two young boys
adorable kids by the way.02:14:08
- [Jeff] Thanks.02:14:09
- One of the things that is
very heartwarming is to see02:14:12
you're in great shape, you're
clearly extremely bright,02:14:14
you know your craft, you loved your craft.02:14:16
You work with Jesse, who
we'll talk about as well.02:14:20
- [Jeff] That's great.
- Which is great.02:14:22
There's a camaraderie there,02:14:23
having great teammates
as part of a business02:14:25
or to work out with is
just makes life better.02:14:28
Let's just be honest.02:14:29
I'm grateful to have great
teammates for the podcast02:14:31
and my lab, of course, as well.02:14:34
But to see your boys and your
dogs and the whole picture,02:14:40
I'm sure it has a lot of
contours and complexity02:14:42
that we don't know about
and shouldn't know about,02:14:44
but it's a beautiful picture.02:14:46
And will they weight train?02:14:48
I've seen the videos
of one or both of them02:14:51
hanging from the bar.02:14:52
- These kids are naturals,
I'm telling you that.02:14:54
- I wonder where they get it from.02:14:55
- I don't even encourage it.02:14:58
I'm not going to be the dad
who's sitting there saying,02:15:00
let's go somewhere.02:15:01
We got our two days.02:15:02
I'm not going to do that but
they have a natural interest02:15:07
in the gym.02:15:08
They just sometimes like
to be out with daddy.02:15:09
So they'll come out there.02:15:10
I of the two of us, my wife
and I will be the one who02:15:15
has a little bit more of a longer leash02:15:17
to let them explore things02:15:19
'cause I was a dummy at times too02:15:20
and figured out best
through the mistakes I made.02:15:23
- Through injury, right.02:15:24
In neuroscience we call
that one trial learning.02:15:26
- There you go.02:15:27
These guys are going to be
masters in one trial learning02:15:29
because you know, they'll
go grab the bars of my,02:15:33
the handles of my jamer that's there02:15:34
'cause it's at a lower level to them02:15:36
and they're swinging around02:15:37
they're doing pull-ups
on it naturally uncoached02:15:39
nothing from me.02:15:40
One will walk up to a deadlift
bar stand over it naturally02:15:43
never saw me do it,02:15:44
stands over there and just
goes, he tries to pull it.02:15:47
So there's a definitely an
inclination to liking the gym02:15:51
and I will fully support that.02:15:52
But of course body weight will
be good for quite a while.02:15:55
- Yeah, so what age do
you think is reasonable02:15:57
for kids to start exploring
a non body weight training?02:16:01
- I think around 13.02:16:03
I think around 13. Once puberty, I think
it's okay to start to.02:16:08
'Cause there's so much,02:16:10
I even say for people
that are like later in age02:16:12
who are just starting out,02:16:13
learn with your own body weight first,02:16:14
there's plenty of resistance to be had02:16:16
by learning how to command
your body in space.02:16:18
So if you have never trained before,02:16:21
you're going to get very stimulated02:16:23
by doing lunging and reverse lunging,02:16:25
even learning some of the
appropriate reception around02:16:27
movement through space.02:16:28
Pull-ups, chin ups.02:16:29
Pull-ups and chin ups are challenging02:16:30
for even people that have had
20, 30 years of experience02:16:33
in the gym. So there's a lot of stimulus
to be had by body weight02:16:37
and jumping straight to
dumbbells or barbells02:16:40
is actually doing yourself a disservice.02:16:42
You can learn better command
of your body in space02:16:44
so that when you go back
to the bigger lifts,02:16:47
you're going to have an easier time02:16:49
sort of progressively loading them02:16:51
and building up that
foundation of strength.02:16:52
I'm not saying that you have to become02:16:54
a master calisthenics athlete02:16:56
before you can touch a
barbell, that's not even true.02:16:58
I'm just saying there's so much capacity.02:17:00
Kids are going to be doing this anyway.02:17:01
And really just, if you
look at general play,02:17:03
they are jumping, they are
lunging, they are climbing,02:17:06
they are pulling like,
that's what they do.02:17:09
I don't know where the avoidance
of like structured training02:17:14
is for younger kids.02:17:15
Again, provided they're using body weight02:17:17
and maybe less ballistic
movements or something like that.02:17:21
Things that are, or certainly
overloaded movements.02:17:24
I think we should
encourage kids to do more.02:17:26
There's a lot of obesity
in kids on the rise also02:17:31
and that is incredibly
disconcerting to me.02:17:34
So I think and I hope it doesn't come from02:17:36
the advice of some that say,02:17:38
well, wait until you're older
to start doing something like.02:17:40
That's a way worse trade off02:17:42
than engaging in something smart now.02:17:45
- We used to get kicked out of
the house when we were kids.02:17:47
- [Jeff] Totally.
- My mom would kick us out.02:17:48
I had a huge pack of boys
that lived on my street02:17:52
but we'd get kicked outside.02:17:53
Like literal, you're not
allowed in, no television.02:17:57
But there were video games, of course02:17:59
but we were kicked out the house.02:18:00
We had to go play.02:18:01
For us it was skateboarding, soccer02:18:02
and then we'd find our trouble.02:18:04
But so post training nutrition.02:18:09
We're the same age, years
ago I was sort of neurotic02:18:13
about the idea that I had to ingest02:18:15
a certain amount of
carbohydrates and proteins02:18:17
within two hours then it
was 90 minutes of training.02:18:20
I confess I get, if I train hard,02:18:22
so I'm talking about
the resistance training02:18:23
not the running.02:18:24
But the resistance training,
60 to 90 minutes later,02:18:28
I'm really hungry.02:18:30
But there have been days when I just skip02:18:32
and then the hunger passes
and then later I eat more.02:18:35
I might eat twice as much later02:18:37
that's just the way
sometimes schedules go.02:18:39
But what are your thoughts in terms of02:18:41
the nutrition science, the
training related effects02:18:45
of the post-training meal?02:18:47
Is it something that you try to get?02:18:50
Is it something you think
people should pay attention to?02:18:52
- So that science has
actually probably been02:18:55
the one that's changed the
most in my lifetime, honestly,02:18:58
because, again, we're at the same age02:19:00
and I was falling for the same trap02:19:04
where I would really be focused on like,02:19:08
I'm risking speeding tickets
driving home from the gym02:19:11
to make you sure I got an anabolic window.02:19:14
Like I did all that, I really did.02:19:16
But thankfully that's been
sort of debunked in your body02:19:20
isn't just rushing through
these certain periods of time02:19:23
to utilize the nutrients in our body,02:19:25
but are able to partition
them and use them over a long,02:19:27
much greater duration.02:19:29
Up to now, they're saying,02:19:30
three to four hours after training,02:19:32
five hours after training,02:19:33
you could still see the
benefits of replenishment.02:19:36
A lot of that is just02:19:38
I think there's a
consistency element to it02:19:42
that just utilizing a post workout window02:19:46
or a post workout meal,02:19:48
even if it's within two hours or one hour02:19:51
is just integrating the habit of saying,02:19:53
listen, I just did this activity02:19:55
and now want to replenish
some of what I lost the energy02:19:58
that I used to perform
the exercises that I did.02:20:02
And just getting into
the routine knowing that02:20:05
the engine is ultimately
fed by what we put in it.02:20:09
And the concept of
replenishing the fuel lost02:20:14
is still a concept that I think again,02:20:16
different in mechanism but still important02:20:18
in terms of fueling the
overall performance.02:20:20
So the pre-workout period of time02:20:24
gives us a chance to
actually have a longer window02:20:28
because if those nutrients
are obtained pre-workout,02:20:31
it's not like they're gone in
that hour that you've trained,02:20:34
they're still there and
available for your body to use.02:20:36
So I think it's important
to get one of the two right02:20:40
or at least make sure you're consistently02:20:42
having one or the two02:20:45
or you might risk going
through all these periods02:20:48
of having no nutrition
to support your efforts.02:20:51
Not only will your
workouts potentially suffer02:20:53
in terms of the output,02:20:54
but then you're also
not providing your body02:20:56
any ability to capitalize
on an opportunity to feed it02:21:01
and refuel and recover.02:21:02
So I'm not very dogmatic
about what specifically to eat02:21:09
pre or post workout.02:21:11
But I do think you should have protein02:21:12
surrounding your training,02:21:15
whether that be ahead of time or after.02:21:18
Protein could be a
little bit hard to digest02:21:20
for some people.02:21:21
So if you do that pre-workout02:21:23
and then you're finding
your workout is slogging02:21:25
because you don't feel good02:21:27
then suddenly you put
that after your meal.02:21:29
But this whole concept
of the urgency of time02:21:32
has thankfully been removed02:21:34
and we can just learn to eat
a little bit more responsibly02:21:39
and drive more responsibly so we're not02:21:41
trying to rush home from the gym02:21:43
and risk killing people on the way.02:21:47
But I think it's great
because I think that02:21:49
that was something that it just showcases02:21:50
a belief that people had for so long02:21:53
that has since been proven
to be not that important.02:21:56
And there's a tip of the cap
towards research in a good way02:22:00
where it's like, all right,02:22:01
I think we could all agree
that this isn't necessarily02:22:03
true anymore.02:22:05
And look at yourself and say,02:22:07
oh my God, I did that so often.02:22:10
I bit that one hook line
and sinker but then realize,02:22:14
okay, we could always make a change.02:22:15
And the good thing about nutrition is02:22:17
those changes can happen the
very next time you go to eat02:22:19
and you'll start to see
the benefits of that.02:22:21
So I'm not a big believer
in that strict approach02:22:26
to pre or post-workout.02:22:28
I mean, even as far as
pre-workout supplements,02:22:32
a lot of people don't take them.02:22:34
A lot of people don't like
them, they don't take them,02:22:36
they don't like, they're not
necessarily even being used02:22:39
as the new nutritive
side of the pre-workout.02:22:42
They're just more used
to fuel the workout.02:22:45
- For me it's water and
some form of caffeine.02:22:49
- Yeah.02:22:50
I mean, it is whatever,02:22:51
again, I think it's important.02:22:52
I do think it's important to maintain02:22:53
a high level of output.02:22:55
So if your pre-work attrition requires02:22:58
a stimulant in order to help you do that02:23:00
or if your pre-work nutrition02:23:01
is causing you to have
a harder time to train02:23:05
because you're feeling full or stomachache02:23:07
or something else, then
that that's not achieving02:23:09
what you're trying to do.02:23:10
The ultimate goal is to
still be able to perform02:23:12
at the highest level.02:23:13
So whatever your nutrition is required02:23:15
to allow you to still do that,02:23:17
that is probably the most
important factor of all of it.02:23:19
- Great, I love the very
clear and rational approach.02:23:22
Don't ingest anything
right before your workout02:23:24
or near your workout02:23:26
that's going to make your workout worse.02:23:27
Yeah, and it's so simple02:23:29
and yet you don't hear this02:23:30
because I think people will think,02:23:31
oh, they must have a pre-workout02:23:33
they must have a post-workout.02:23:34
- No, again, even if the
benefits that are to be had02:23:37
from whatever's being suggested02:23:40
is going to be easily
offset by the fact that02:23:41
you can't perform at an output capable02:23:43
of driving any change.02:23:46
So that would pretty
much negate the fact that02:23:49
you're not outweighing those benefits02:23:51
of whatever nutritive approach you took02:23:53
and is struggling through your workout.02:23:55
- For me, the best pre-workout
is a good night's sleep,02:23:58
hydration, caffeine, and music.02:24:00
- Yeah, there you go.02:24:01
I mean, that's a simple formula.02:24:03
- It works.02:24:04
And then post what I do I
do find I get quite hungry02:24:06
and want to eat quite a bit more and...02:24:07
- Well, that's a natural
response the body's going to02:24:10
and most people want to do that
and I think it should be fed.02:24:13
I work out as you know,02:24:15
again, a lot of my postings
on Instagram will happen02:24:17
at 10 o'clock at night,
10:30 at night, 11 at night,02:24:20
'cause I am actually training there02:24:21
and that's where I'm
taking those little breaks02:24:23
in between sets to actually
film or post something.02:24:25
But like, I then go inside and eat dinner.02:24:27
So I'm eating at 11 o'clock at night.02:24:29
It's not necessarily ideal,02:24:31
I'm not recommending that
as a tool for anybody.02:24:33
I think it dispels one thing,02:24:35
I've never been a believer
in Kenny carbs after six.02:24:38
- That makes no sense to me.02:24:40
- [Jeff] Zero sense.
- Based on all the new,02:24:41
all the signs of metabolism
that I've seen makes no sense.02:24:45
I think as long as you
can, sort of like napping.02:24:47
I talked to Matt Walker, one
of the great sleep researchers02:24:49
wrote why we sleep, et cetera,02:24:51
and has his own podcast about
sleep, tremendous researcher,02:24:54
public communicator
about sleep and he said,02:24:56
naps are fine provided
they don't interrupt02:24:58
your ability to sleep well at night.02:25:00
Simple.02:25:01
Some people can sleep
from eight to 9:00 PM02:25:03
and then go to bed at
midnight and not a problem.02:25:04
Other people they take a
30 minute nap after lunch02:25:06
and they can't sleep at night.02:25:08
Same thing with- Caffeine's a little different02:25:09
because Matt would argue
the architecture of sleep02:25:11
can be disrupted, et cetera.02:25:12
But if you can eat dinner late
and eat carbohydrates late,02:25:16
I actually need carbohydrates at night02:25:17
in order to be able to sleep.02:25:19
Whenever I've done a low
carbohydrate type regimen02:25:22
in the evening, I have a
hard time falling asleep.02:25:24
I'm just too alert.02:25:26
And so I eat carbohydrates in the evening02:25:28
to restore glycogen02:25:29
but also in order to make
sure that I can fall asleep.02:25:33
- I actually can,02:25:35
again obviously it's
already late at night,02:25:36
by the time I'm done eating,02:25:38
but like I can fall asleep
within 5, 10 minutes02:25:40
of finishing my meal.02:25:41
Because I do think that they
have that same effect on me,02:25:44
but I'm never,02:25:46
I'm not bothered by the
feeling of fullness.02:25:49
I'm not unable to sleep because
of a feeling of fullness.02:25:52
But I do like the fact that02:25:56
I feel as if I'm at least replenishing02:25:58
what was lost through my hard training.02:26:00
And I do like to back it up with a dinner.02:26:02
I don't need to eat smaller amounts.02:26:04
Some people can't have that much.02:26:05
I will say after a hard leg workout,02:26:07
I don't have the same appetite
that I do after let's say,02:26:10
an upper body workout.02:26:12
It can really disrupt my
whole feeling of wellbeing.02:26:17
- You want to eat less
after you train your legs?02:26:19
- [Jeff] I do, yeah.
- Oh, wow, I'm the opposite.02:26:22
- No, 'cause I could
feel sick to my stomach.02:26:24
- You're clearly training harder.02:26:26
I've seen the way you train,
you do train very intensely.02:26:28
- Yeah.02:26:29
I think it's important.02:26:30
I mean, I think that...02:26:31
Again, it's that trade off between,02:26:33
if you're not going to train
for a long period of time02:26:36
then you're going to want to train harder.02:26:38
And again, I actually
feel like contrary to02:26:41
what people might think as you age,02:26:44
you're better off training harder02:26:45
for a shorter period of time.02:26:47
It's always within the
realm of safe training.02:26:52
I mean, I think that's
what I like to think02:26:53
that's what I bring to the table.02:26:54
Like an approach that's
smarter so I can train harder.02:26:58
Like not doing the dumb
things I did when I was a kid.02:27:00
And with that trade off
being a harder trainer,02:27:05
I think I get the results that I want02:27:08
because I'm able to really
push it and then back off02:27:11
and again, the meal feels like
almost a physiological reward02:27:16
for the hard effort I put in the gym02:27:18
knowing that I'm also replenishing
and setting the stage for02:27:22
the next day to be another
successful day of training02:27:25
or maybe not depending upon
how many times a day a week02:27:27
I train.02:27:28
I think that it's,02:27:32
It's a lot less,02:27:33
I hate to say but it's
a lot less scientific02:27:36
than we want to make it.02:27:38
And as it seems to be
coming back oftentimes02:27:41
like the thing that works for you02:27:43
is really the most important thing02:27:44
because ultimately
getting your ass in there02:27:46
and doing what you do02:27:47
is really the thing that
provides the best benefit.02:27:50
- Absolutely, and there are
many things that I would say02:27:53
are hallmarks of Jeff Cavaliere,02:27:55
but one of them is certainly consistency.02:27:58
You make it happen one way or another.02:28:00
- Huge. I mean, consistency
really is the determinant.02:28:04
And I know that that is
the hardest part for people02:28:06
that are, and why people tend
to look for the shortcut,02:28:10
'cause consistency is
the part that becomes02:28:13
the biggest challenge.02:28:14
But if you could find,
listen, if you could find the,02:28:18
you know through what I've
been trying to encourage here02:28:20
is like if you could find
the nutrition approach,02:28:22
if you could find the training approach,02:28:23
if you could try find the training split,02:28:25
if you could try all those
things that encourage you02:28:27
to want to go to the gym.02:28:28
Like you're locked in at
the point where you said02:28:30
you actually look forward to
going and doing your workout.02:28:33
- I love it.02:28:34
I look forward to, I mean, it's-02:28:35
Actually this morning,02:28:37
one of our teammates for the
podcast and I got to workout02:28:40
and halfway through I just
turned him and I said,02:28:42
I'll never figure out
why that feels so good,02:28:44
but it feels so good.02:28:45
I just, I really enjoy it and it lets,02:28:47
and I love to eat and it lets me eat right02:28:48
and I love the way it
makes me feel afterward.02:28:51
I don't understand this concept
of not enjoying the gym.02:28:53
Cardio's a little different,02:28:54
I always loathe the first
10 or 20 minutes of a jog.02:28:58
I mildly loathe the middle
third and by the end,02:29:02
I think this is the greatest thing ever,02:29:04
why don't want to do it all the time.02:29:05
And then that feeling evaporates02:29:06
before the next time I do it.02:29:07
- Yeah, of course I don't
even remember it either,02:29:09
after we get on, then do it again.02:29:10
- [Andrew] Exactly.02:29:11
- I think if people could,02:29:14
if we had one gift we
could give to everybody02:29:17
it would be the love of fitness.02:29:18
If they could be bestowed
the love of fitness02:29:20
it would change the entire world.02:29:22
But I think when you hear
things like this, that like,02:29:27
hey, that will work and that will work too02:29:28
and that this will work too.02:29:30
Rather than the dogmatic
one way only approach,02:29:34
which could become
discouraging for people.02:29:37
Then I think it becomes a
little bit uplifting like,02:29:39
well, I've never tried that.02:29:40
I've actually never
tried a total body split02:29:42
or I've never tried that style of eating.02:29:44
Like it becomes encouraging
that you might want to explore02:29:48
and then you might finally
get locked in and say,02:29:50
I really like this and then
you're off and running.02:29:52
- Some of what I so
enjoy about your content.02:29:55
We would be remiss if we
didn't briefly discuss Jesse.02:30:00
One of the great pleasures
for me in watching her content02:30:04
and learning from it over the
years is that you took on a,02:30:06
you decided to mentor somebody, Jesse.02:30:09
And there's some poking fun02:30:11
back and forth between the two
of you which is very amusing.02:30:13
But I have to say it
inspired me to do something02:30:16
early on in developing this podcast02:30:18
as I have a young intern who has helped me02:30:22
with some of the research
and he's a buddy,02:30:24
he's interested in science,
he's about to go off to college,02:30:26
but he also got really into fitness. So we would watch the videos of you guys.02:30:28
He was helping me get the
Instagram content out early on.02:30:32
And one thing that was just,02:30:33
it's such a pleasure to be
able to pass along knowledge02:30:36
and of course I'm learning from him.02:30:38
This is always the way it works.02:30:39
We learn from teaching and
we learn from students.02:30:41
But it's been great to see
Jesse's progress, it's amazing.02:30:44
I've gotten to meet him in person just now02:30:48
and he has grown, he's changed physically.02:30:51
And I think that you
mentioned a love of fitness.02:30:53
I think that one of the
best ways to be consistent02:30:56
is to take on the responsibility
of teaching others.02:30:59
Once one has proficiency in something.02:31:01
So maybe you just tell
us a little bit about02:31:04
how that's going.02:31:05
How is Jesse doing and02:31:06
where does he need a little
more work, where is he thriving?02:31:10
I'm impressed by the progress.02:31:12
- Well we have a, I mean, physically, we can
obviously see the changes,02:31:16
the list of things to
work on or is immense02:31:18
it's so long for him
to continue to improve.02:31:20
But no actually, in reality, Jesse,02:31:25
the story of Jesse was that02:31:26
I knew Jesse prior to
starting even Athlean-X.02:31:28
And a matter of fact,
I think the funny thing02:31:30
is the very first video that
was ever posted on my channel02:31:33
was a video that he shot as I don't know,02:31:36
a 13 year old or something.02:31:38
And I said, can you just
film this for a second.02:31:40
I was over there training
members of the family.02:31:42
So he then off went off to
college, went into film,02:31:47
realized he had much greener
pastures at Athlean-X02:31:50
instead of becoming the next
[indistinct] or something02:31:53
and he decided to come work with me.02:31:55
And the expectations in the beginning02:31:58
were just to edit videos02:31:59
or just to help with various aspects of02:32:04
like my day to day that
I don't think I was02:32:06
equipped to really handle and
grow the business anymore.02:32:08
So then look at by virtue of
being in that environment,02:32:14
there's an interest.02:32:15
I think if I worked in a gym,02:32:17
I might become interested in working out.02:32:18
And though that mine
was not a commercial gym02:32:20
it's sitting right
behind my office window,02:32:24
there became an interest02:32:25
in wanting to work out a little bit.02:32:27
And it wasn't even an
intentional experiment02:32:31
to put Jesse there.02:32:33
I just thought that he's
a very likable person.02:32:36
He has a very funny personality02:32:38
and he's also the, every man.02:32:39
In some ways as I'm sure
maybe you experience sometimes02:32:44
like I'm the guy that this
comes naturally for me02:32:47
is what people will say.02:32:48
Like, this is what you do for a living.02:32:50
Like this is what you-02:32:51
Like there's an element of disconnect02:32:52
in terms of the relatability02:32:54
because I do do this for a living.02:32:56
I can't deny that I do work
with professional athletes.02:32:59
So like there's a level
of interest in this02:33:01
above and beyond.02:33:02
But for him, he's just the
kid who wants to train.02:33:04
Maybe if he rolls out
of bed before 11:00 AM02:33:07
and doesn't have a date on Friday night,02:33:11
but that's the guy
everybody could relate to.02:33:13
And watching him transform02:33:15
and I love the fact that
even the interest level02:33:19
was up and down.02:33:20
Like it wasn't consistent
for him because he was like,02:33:24
part interested02:33:25
and then maybe not
interested for three months02:33:26
and then interested or not.02:33:27
And I never pushed it on him.02:33:28
This is again, this was no
orchestrated experiment for me.02:33:31
It was just like, if you want
to do this, then do this.02:33:33
And also from a standpoint
of like lending my help02:33:38
or expertise to him,
like I said, with my son,02:33:40
I'm not going to force it on anybody,02:33:42
I don't want to do that to anybody.02:33:43
I don't think that that's ever
going to spark that desire02:33:46
for long term adoption.02:33:48
So he got more interested,02:33:50
he started to learn more about it,02:33:52
he watched just the
videos that we're filming.02:33:53
He films the videos that we're filming02:33:55
and he's learning through what I'm saying02:33:56
he's becoming more of
a student of the field.02:33:59
And I have to say his knowledge
in the field has grown02:34:03
with the growth of his physique.02:34:05
And he's put into practice
some of the things that I say,02:34:08
he's put in practice some
things he hears other places02:34:10
and he winds up improving as he goes02:34:13
and he winds up starting to love this02:34:16
like he never thought he would.02:34:18
But it's great to see anybody grow02:34:22
and whether that be physically
or that be emotionally02:34:25
or whether that be just in their career,02:34:28
it's great to see somebody grow.02:34:30
And I like to tease him.02:34:32
Funny admission here,02:34:35
there are times when the
jabs that I will throw at him02:34:38
are something that we
might know ahead of time02:34:40
of what I'm going to say to him.02:34:42
People will say you're so mean to him.02:34:45
I can't believe it
you're that's so abusive.02:34:48
Like, dude, honestly, we
laugh after it's over.02:34:51
It's good, we're good.02:34:53
So of course, but like...02:34:55
- He's tougher than he
looks is what you're saying.02:34:56
- [Jeff] He's tougher
than he looks, believe me.02:34:58
- And he looks tough,
he's got the big beard.02:35:00
- He looks more manly than I do.02:35:01
I can't grow a beard, I don't,02:35:03
I mean, believe me, he's totally alpha02:35:05
and I'm like quickly becoming
the second star of this show,02:35:09
but like he's definitely contributed02:35:14
and people enjoy his presence for sure.02:35:16
- Yeah, I certainly do.02:35:17
And I think that as you pointed out,02:35:19
he's a kind of a proxy and
a template for everybody.02:35:23
We can relate to him because02:35:24
even though I've trained for many years,02:35:26
it's been a struggle through
graduate school, post,02:35:29
made it happen one way or another,02:35:31
but with more or less attention02:35:33
and admittedly through waxing
waning levels of motivation02:35:37
although I'm fortunate that I do enjoy it.02:35:39
- What I think is nice
about it too is that02:35:41
it's a realistic expectation that we set.02:35:45
'Cause you're showcasing02:35:47
what the journey actually looks like.02:35:49
And he's been on the journey
for again devotedly for02:35:53
let's say the last year and a half02:35:54
but on the journey for five years.02:35:56
If I could make the gains that he did02:35:59
starting when I started
training at 14, 15,02:36:04
and you're saying, hey, by 20,02:36:05
you're going to have the
strength levels he does,02:36:08
the physique that he does, the
knowledge that you've gained.02:36:11
Like that seems like a blink of an eye02:36:13
now looking back.02:36:14
At 46 years old, I'm like, holy cow.02:36:17
Like I think it took me
20 years, 15, 20 years02:36:21
to just even start to get into a groove.02:36:23
For him to do in a period of five years,02:36:26
it doesn't seem long02:36:27
whereas there's people that
will criticize his journey like,02:36:30
oh, it's just taking so long and so like02:36:33
there's such an instant
gratification that people seek,02:36:36
luckily that's the minority.02:36:38
Most people are like, this is amazing,02:36:39
but I think that it becomes
very uplifting because02:36:43
not only is it relatable
but the journey is real02:36:45
and people can appreciate that.02:36:48
Like, this is what will happen02:36:49
if you actually put in
consistent hard work02:36:50
and you'll watch him transform02:36:52
and go back and watch the
videos like you look at.02:36:53
We like to oftentimes throw
back to videos where he appeared02:36:57
as smaller Jesse but also shy Jesse.02:37:01
Arms crossed, head down,02:37:03
not making eye contact with the camera02:37:05
to where now he's got
his own skits and intros.02:37:08
It's like it's funny
because the confidence02:37:11
with the growth of physique
came confidence too,02:37:13
which is great.02:37:14
- Absolutely.02:37:15
Pretty soon it'll be his world
and we'll all be living in it02:37:17
as they say.02:37:19
Well, on behalf of myself
and all the listeners,02:37:23
I really want to thank you.02:37:25
First of all, for the discussion today,02:37:27
I learned an immense amount02:37:29
even though I thought I
knew your content well,02:37:30
I still learned an immense amount,02:37:32
many things we could deploy
from when to stretch,02:37:34
how to stretch, the skipping rope.02:37:36
We talked about nutrition,
we talked about heat cold02:37:39
training regimens.02:37:40
And what I love about all of this02:37:44
now that you've given us is that02:37:45
there's a backbone of logic02:37:47
and some consistent themes
indeed about consistency.02:37:51
But the logical backbone, I think is what02:37:54
will enable people to
really show up to the table02:37:57
and stay there for training
consistently over time.02:38:00
And as you said, the gift of
fitness is an immense gift.02:38:02
I can't thank you enough.02:38:04
I know you're an incredibly
busy human being with kids02:38:07
and dogs and a marriage and...02:38:09
- It's my pleasure.02:38:10
I'm happy I was able to make it work02:38:12
'cause I really I've been
watching your stuff for a while.02:38:15
And I really love the science of it,02:38:16
I like the way you think.02:38:18
And it's just, I'm just really fortunate02:38:22
that I was able to do it.02:38:23
- Oh well, I feel very
gratified in hearing that02:38:25
and honored to have you here.02:38:26
So thank you so much.02:38:27
- Thank you.02:38:28
- Thank you for joining
me for my discussion02:38:30
with Jeff Cavaliere.02:38:31
I hope you found it as interesting02:38:33
and as actionable as I did.02:38:35
If you're learning from and
are enjoying this podcast,02:38:37
please subscribe to our YouTube channel.02:38:39
That's the best zero
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In addition, please subscribe
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and on Apple, that's also a
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And on both Spotify and Apple,02:38:49
you can leave us up to a five star review.02:38:52
If you have comments and feedback,02:38:53
the best place to leave that
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There if you have suggestions
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In addition, please check
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And for those of you that are interestedDescription:
My guest this episode is Jeff Cavaliere, MSPT CSCS, a world-class physical therapist and Certified Strength & Conditioning Specialist. Jeff has coached athletes ranging from novice to professional and has taught science-based physical training protocols to tens of millions of everyday people via his enormously clear and actionable online programs. Jeff is a true expert on proper resistance and cardiovascular training, injury prevention and rehabilitation and has extensive knowledge on proper form, posture, nutrition and supplementation. We discuss how to best design and optimize a physical training program to achieve your specific goals. We also discuss how to build and leverage mental focus during workouts, when and how to stretch, pain management and enhancing workout recovery and sleep, and how to personalize your training and nutrition program over time. Jeff’s knowledge and science-based approach ought to benefit everyone in reaching their desired fitness, aesthetic and overall health goals. Thank you to our sponsors AG1 (Athletic Greens): https://athleticgreens.com/huberman Eight Sleep: https://www.eightsleep.com/eu/huberman/ ROKA: https://www.roka.com/huberman Supplements from Momentous https://www.livemomentous.com/huberman Social & Website Instagram - https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser Twitter - https://twitter.com/hubermanlab Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@hubermanlab Website - https://www.hubermanlab.com/ Newsletter - https://www.hubermanlab.com/newsletter Subscribe to the Huberman Lab Podcast Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/huberman-lab/id1545953110 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/79CkJF3UJTHFV8Dse3Oy0P Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vaHViZXJtYW5sYWI?sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiausvWkpf4AhW5lo4IHYdRCI8Q9sEGegQIARAD Other platforms: https://www.hubermanlab.com/podcast Jeff Cavaliere Website: https://athleanx.com/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/athleanx Instagram: https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser Twitter: https://twitter.com/trainer2thepros Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser Jeff's Articles on Workout Splits: https://athleanx.com/articles/the-best-way-to-split-up-your-workouts-surprise https://athleanx.com/articles/the-best-way-to-split-up-your-workouts-surprise Hand Grip Dynamometer: https://www.amazon.com/hand-grip-dynamometer/s?k=hand+grip+dynamometer Jeff's Videos: Jump Rope Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpE7TbADcYs High Pull Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SnVJDt7jts Fixing Back Pain Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWmGArQBtFI Timestamps 00:00:00 Jeff Cavaliere, Physical Training 00:03:27 Momentous Supplements, AG1 (Athletic Greens), Eight Sleep, ROKA 00:08:38 Tool: A Fitness Plan for General Health 00:13:27 Tool: Optimizing Body Part Training Splits 00:20:12 Two-a-Day Training 00:22:33 Cardiovascular Conditioning, High-Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) & Skills 00:28:24 Tool: Mind-Muscle Connection, The Cavaliere Cramp Contraction Test 00:35:05 “Muscularity” & Resting Tone 00:41:31 Tool: Muscle Recovery & Soreness, Grip Strength 00:50:39 Sleep & Sleep Position 00:57:24 Active (Dynamic) vs. Passive Stretching, Timing & Healing Muscle 01:07:23 Tool: Jumping Rope 01:12:56 Internal & External Rotation, Upright Row vs. High Pull 01:24:27 Back Pain Relief & Medial Glutes, Body Pain & Origins 01:37:39 Tool: Properly Holding Weights & Deepening Grip 01:43:54 Tool: Physical Recovery, Heat & Cold Exposure 01:47:19 Tool: Record Keeping for Training Performance & Rest Time 01:51:47 Nutrition Principles & Consistency, Processed Foods & Sugar 02:00:15 Tool: “Plate Eating”: Protein, Fibrous & Starchy Carbohydrates 02:11:25 Training in Men vs. Women, Training for Kids & Adolescents 02:18:05 Tool: Pre- and Post-Training Nutrition 02:26:30 Intensity & Training Consistency 02:29:53 AthleanX, Jesse Laico & Fitness Journeys 02:38:27 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube Feedback, Spotify & Apple Reviews, Sponsors, Momentous Supplements, Instagram, Twitter, Neural Network Newsletter The Huberman Lab Podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical advice, and no doctor/patient relationship is formed. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from this podcast is at the user’s own risk. The content of this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Users should not disregard or delay in obtaining medical advice for any medical condition they may have and should seek the assistance of their health care professionals for any such conditions. Title Card Photo Credit: Mike Blabac - https://www.blabacphoto.com/
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