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00:00:00
- Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast,00:00:02
where we discuss science
and science-based tools00:00:04
for everyday life.00:00:05
[lively music]00:00:09
I'm Andrew Huberman,00:00:10
and I'm a professor of
neurobiology and ophthalmology00:00:13
at Stanford School of Medicine.00:00:15
Today, my guest is Dr. Erich Jarvis.00:00:17
Dr. Jarvis is a professor at
the Rockefeller University00:00:20
in New York City00:00:21
and his laboratory studies,00:00:23
the neurobiology of
vocal learning, language,00:00:26
speech disorders,00:00:28
and remarkably, the
relationship between language,00:00:30
music and movement, in particular dance.00:00:34
His work spans from genomics,00:00:37
so the very genes that make up our genome00:00:40
and the genomes of other species00:00:42
that speak and have language00:00:44
such as songbirds and parrots00:00:46
all the way up to neural circuits,00:00:48
that is the connections
in the brain and body00:00:50
that govern our ability to learn00:00:52
and generate specific sounds00:00:54
and movements coordinated
with those sounds,00:00:56
including hand movements00:00:58
and all the way up to cognition,00:01:01
that is our ability to
think in specific ways,00:01:04
based on what we are saying00:01:05
and the way that we comprehend00:01:07
what other people are
saying, singing and doing.00:01:10
As you'll soon see,00:01:12
I was immediately transfixed00:01:14
and absolutely enchanted
by Dr. Jarvis's description00:01:18
of his work and the ways that it impacts00:01:20
all the various aspects of our lives.00:01:22
For instance, I learned from
Dr. Jarvis that as we read,00:01:26
we are generating very low-levels00:01:28
of motor activity in our throat.00:01:30
That is, we are speaking the
words that we are reading00:01:34
at a level below the perception of sound00:01:36
or our own perception of those words.00:01:39
But if one were to put an amplifier00:01:40
or to measure the firing of those muscles00:01:43
in our vocal chords,00:01:45
we'd find that as we're
reading information,00:01:47
we are actually speaking that information.00:01:49
And as I learned, and you'll soon learn,00:01:51
there's a direct link
between those species00:01:54
in the world that have song and movement,00:01:57
which many of us would
associate with dance00:01:59
and our ability to learn and
generate complex language.00:02:03
So for people with speech
disorders like stutter,00:02:06
or for people who are interested00:02:07
in multiple language learning,00:02:09
bilingual, trilingual, et cetera,00:02:11
and frankly for anyone who is interested00:02:14
in how we communicate through
words, written or spoken,00:02:18
I'm certain today's episode is going to be00:02:19
an especially interesting
and important one for you.00:02:22
Dr. Jarvis's work is so pioneering00:02:24
that he has been awarded
truly countless awards.00:02:27
I'm not going to take our time to list off00:02:29
all the various important
awards that he's received,00:02:32
but I should point out00:02:33
that in addition to being
a decorated professor00:02:35
at the Rockefeller University,00:02:37
he is also an investigator00:02:38
with the Howard Hughes Medical Institute,00:02:40
the so-called HHMI.00:02:42
And for those of you that don't know,00:02:43
HHMI investigators are selected00:02:46
on an extremely competitive basis00:02:49
that they have to re-up,00:02:50
that is they have to
recompete every five years.00:02:53
They actually receive a
grade every five years00:02:56
that dictates whether or
not they are no longer00:02:58
a Howard Hughes investigator00:02:59
or whether or not they can
advance to another five years00:03:03
of funding for their important research.00:03:05
And indeed, Howard Hughes investigators00:03:06
are selected not just for
the rigor of their work,00:03:09
but for their pioneering spirit00:03:11
and their ability to take on
high-risk, high-benefit work,00:03:15
which is exactly the kind of work00:03:16
that Dr. Jarvis has been
providing for decades now.00:03:20
Again, I think today's episode
is one of the more unique00:03:22
and special episodes that we've had00:03:24
on the Huberman Lab Podcast.00:03:25
I single it out because it really spans00:03:27
from the basic to the applied00:03:29
and Dr. Jarvis's story is
an especially unique one00:03:32
in terms of how he arrived
at becoming a neurobiologist.00:03:35
So for those of you that are interested00:03:36
in personal journey and personal story,00:03:38
Dr. Jarvis's is truly a
special and important one.00:03:42
I'm pleased to announce that
the Huberman Lab Podcast00:03:44
is now partnered with
Momentous supplements.00:03:46
We partnered with Momentous
for several important reasons.00:03:49
First of all, they ship internationally00:03:50
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Third, we've really emphasized supplements00:04:05
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If you'd like to see the supplements00:04:22
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There, you'll see those supplements.00:04:27
And just keep in mind00:04:29
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Before we begin, I'd like to
emphasize that this podcast00:04:39
is separate from my teaching
and research roles at Stanford.00:04:41
It is however, part of
my desire and effort00:04:43
to bring zero cost to consumer
information about science00:04:46
and science-related tools
to the general public.00:04:48
In keeping with that theme,00:04:49
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And now, for my discussion
with Dr. Erich Jarvis.00:08:02
Erich, it's so great to have you here.00:08:04
- Thank you.
- Yeah.00:08:05
Very interested in learning from you00:08:07
about speech and language.00:08:09
And even as I ask the question,00:08:12
I realize that a lot of
people, including myself,00:08:14
probably don't fully
appreciate the distinction00:08:17
between speech and language, right?00:08:19
Speech, I think of as the motor patterns,00:08:21
the production of sound00:08:23
that has meaning, hopefully.00:08:25
And language, of course,
comes in various languages00:08:29
and varieties of ways of communicating.00:08:31
But in terms of the study
of speech and language,00:08:34
and thinking about how the brain00:08:36
organizes speech and language,00:08:38
what are the similarities?00:08:40
What are the differences?00:08:41
How should we think about
speech and language?00:08:43
- Yeah, well, I'm glad you,
you know, inviting me here.00:08:46
And I'm also glad to
get that first question,00:08:50
which I consider a provocative one.00:08:52
The reason why, I've been struggling,00:08:55
what is the difference
with speech and language00:08:57
for many years.00:08:58
And realize, why am I struggling,00:09:00
is because there are behavioral terms,00:09:03
let's call 'em psychologically,00:09:04
psychology developed kind of terms00:09:07
that don't actually align
exactly with brain function.00:09:12
All right.00:09:13
And the question is there a distinction00:09:14
between speech and language?00:09:15
And when I look at the brain00:09:17
of work that other people
have done, work we have done,00:09:20
also compared it with animal models,00:09:21
like those who can imitate sounds00:09:23
like parrots and songbirds.00:09:25
I start to see there really
isn't such a sharp distinction.00:09:30
So, to get at what I think is going on,00:09:32
let me tell you how some
people think of it now.00:09:35
That there's a separate
language module in the brain00:09:39
that has all the
algorithms and computations00:09:42
that influence the speech pathway00:09:44
on how to produce sound00:09:46
and the auditory pathway
on how to perceive00:09:49
and interpret it for speech00:09:51
or for, you know, sound
that we call speech.00:09:55
And it turns out,00:09:58
I don't think there is any good evidence00:10:00
for a separate language module.00:10:02
Instead, there is a
speech production pathway00:10:07
that's controlling our larynx,00:10:08
controlling our jaw muscles00:10:10
that has built within it00:10:12
all the complex algorithms
for spoken language.00:10:16
And there's the auditory pathway00:10:18
that has built within it,00:10:19
all the complex algorithms
for understanding speech,00:10:22
not separate from a language module.00:10:25
And this speech production pathway00:10:27
is specialized to humans00:10:30
and parrots and songbirds,00:10:32
whereas this auditory perception pathway00:10:35
is more ubiquitous amongst
the animal kingdom.00:10:38
And this is why dogs can understand,00:10:39
"sit", "sientese", "come here, boy",00:10:43
"get the ball" and so forth.00:10:44
Dogs can understand several
hundred human speech words.00:10:48
Great apes, you can teach
them for several thousand,00:10:51
but they can't say a word.00:10:53
- Fascinating.00:10:55
Because you've raised a
number of animal species00:10:58
early on here and because I have a,00:11:00
basically an obsession with animals00:11:02
since the time I was very small,00:11:03
I have to ask, which
animals have language?00:11:08
Which animals have modes of communication00:11:11
that are sort of like language.00:11:14
- [Erich] Yeah.00:11:15
- You know, I've heard whale songs.00:11:16
I don't know what they're saying.00:11:17
They sound very beautiful,00:11:18
but they could be insulting
each other for all I know.00:11:21
- [Erich] Yeah. - And they very well may be.00:11:24
Dolphins, birds, I mean,00:11:27
what do we understand about
modes of communication00:11:30
that are like language,00:11:32
but might not be what would
classically be called language?00:11:36
- Yes, right.00:11:37
So, modes of communication00:11:40
that people would define as language,00:11:43
more, very, in a very narrow definition,00:11:46
they would say, production
of sound, so speech.00:11:49
But what about the hands,
the gesturing with the hands?00:11:52
What about a bird who is doing
aerial displays in the air,00:11:56
communicating information
through body language, right.00:12:00
Well, I'm going to go back to the brain.00:12:03
So what I think is going on00:12:06
is for spoken language,00:12:08
we're using the speech pathway00:12:10
and all the complex algorithms there.00:12:13
Next to the brain regions00:12:14
that are controlling spoken language00:12:16
are the brain regions for
gesturing with the hands.00:12:19
And that hand parallel pathway00:12:22
has also complex algorithms
that we can utilize.00:12:25
And some species are more
advanced in these circuits,00:12:28
whether it's sound or gesturing with hands00:12:31
and some are less advanced.00:12:33
Now, we, humans and a few others00:12:35
are the most advanced
for the speech sounds00:12:39
or the spoken language,00:12:41
but a non-human primate
can produce gesturing00:12:45
in a more advanced form than
they could produce sound.00:12:49
I'm not sure I got that across clearly,00:12:51
just to say that humans
are the most advanced00:12:54
at spoken language,00:12:56
but not necessarily as big a
difference at gestural language00:13:01
compared to some of the species.00:13:03
- Very clear and very interesting.00:13:05
And immediately prompts the question,00:13:08
have there been brain imaging00:13:09
or other sorts of studies
evaluating neural activity00:13:14
in the context of, you know,
cultures and languages,00:13:18
at least that I associate
with a lot of hand movement,00:13:20
like Italian.
- Yep.00:13:21
- Versus, I don't know,00:13:23
maybe you could give us
some examples of cultures00:13:25
where language is not associated with00:13:27
as much overt hand movement.00:13:29
- Yes, so as you and I
are talking here today00:13:32
and people who are
listening, but can't see us,00:13:35
we're actually gesturing
with our hands as we talk00:13:39
without knowing it or
doing it unconsciously.00:13:42
And if we were talking on a telephone,00:13:45
I would have one hand here00:13:46
and I'd be gesturing with the other hand.00:13:47
[Andrew laughs]00:13:48
Without even you seeing me, right?00:13:50
And so why is that?00:13:52
Some have argued and I would agree,00:13:54
but based upon what we've seen00:13:56
is that there's an
evolutionary relationship00:13:58
between the brain pathways00:14:00
that control speech
production and gesturing.00:14:04
And the brain regions I mentioned00:14:05
are directly adjacent to each other.00:14:07
And why is that?00:14:08
I think that the brain
pathways that control speech00:14:11
evolved out of the brain pathways
that control body movement.00:14:15
All right.00:14:16
And that00:14:19
when you talk about Italian, French,00:14:22
English, and so forth,00:14:24
each one of those languages00:14:25
come with a learned set of gestures00:14:29
that you can communicate with.00:14:31
Now, how is that related to other animals?00:14:33
Well, Cocoa, a gorilla who is raised00:14:35
with humans for 39 years or more,00:14:39
learned how to do gesture communication,00:14:42
learned how to sign
language, so to speak, right?00:14:45
But Cocoa couldn't produce those sounds.00:14:48
Cocoa could understand them as well00:14:51
by seeing somebody sign00:14:53
or hearing somebody produce speech,00:14:56
but Cocoa couldn't
produce it with her voice.00:14:58
And so, what's going on there is that00:15:02
a number of species, not all of them,00:15:04
a number of species have
motor pathways in the brain00:15:07
where you can do learn gesturing,00:15:09
rudimentary language, if you
wanted, say with your limbs,00:15:12
even if it's not as advanced as humans.00:15:14
But they don't have this extra
brain pathway for the sound.00:15:18
So they can't gesture with their voice00:15:21
in the way that they
gesture with their hands.00:15:23
- I see.00:15:24
One thing that I've wondered
about for a very long time00:15:27
is whether or not00:15:29
primitive emotions and primitive sounds00:15:34
are the early substrate of language.00:15:37
And whether or not there's a bridge00:15:39
that we can draw between those00:15:40
in terms of just the
basic respiration systems00:15:44
associated with different
extreme feelings.00:15:47
Here's the way I'm
imagining this might work.00:15:50
When I smell something delicious,00:15:53
I typically inhale more.
- Hmm hmm.00:15:57
- And I might say, mmm,
or something like that.00:16:00
Whereas if I smell something putrid,00:16:02
I typically turn away, and I wince00:16:04
and I will exhale [exhales],00:16:06
you know or sort of
kind of like turn away,00:16:07
trying to not ingest those molecules00:16:10
or inhale those molecules.00:16:11
I could imagine that these00:16:13
are the basic dark and light contrasts00:16:17
of the language system.00:16:18
And as I say that,00:16:19
I'm saying that from the
orientation of a vision scientist00:16:23
who thinks of all visual images built up00:16:26
in a very basic way of
a hierarchical map model00:16:29
of the ability to see dark and light.00:16:31
So I could imagine this kind of primitive00:16:33
to more sophisticated pyramid00:16:37
of sound to language.00:16:40
Is this a crazy idea?00:16:41
Do we have any evidence
this is the way it works?00:16:45
- No, it's not a crazy idea.00:16:47
And in fact, you hit upon one of the key distinctions00:16:51
in the field of research
that I started out in,00:16:54
which is vocal learning research.00:16:56
So for vocal communication,00:17:00
you have most vertebrate species vocalize,00:17:03
but most of them are
producing innate sounds00:17:06
that they're born with producing,00:17:10
that is babies crying, for example,00:17:13
or dogs barking.00:17:15
And only a few species have
learned vocal communication,00:17:18
the ability to imitate sounds.00:17:20
And that is what makes
spoken language special.00:17:23
When people think of what's
special about language,00:17:26
it's the learned vocalizations.00:17:29
That is what's rare.00:17:31
And so, this distinction
between innateness and learned00:17:36
is more of a bigger dichotomy00:17:38
when it comes to vocalizations00:17:39
than for other behaviors
in the animal kingdom.00:17:42
And when you go in the brain,00:17:45
you see it there as well.00:17:47
And so all the things you talked about,00:17:49
the breathing, the grunting and so forth,00:17:51
a lot of that is handled
by the brain stem circuits,00:17:55
you know, right around the
level of your neck and below.00:17:58
Like a reflex kind of thing.00:18:00
So, or even some emotional
aspects of your behavior00:18:04
in the hypothalamus and so forth.00:18:06
But for a learned behavior,00:18:08
learning how to speak,00:18:10
learning how to play the piano,00:18:12
teaching a dog to learn how to do tricks00:18:15
is using the forebrain circuits.00:18:18
And what has happened is00:18:20
that there's a lot of forebrain circuits00:18:21
that are controlling,00:18:22
learning how to move body
parts in these species,00:18:24
but not for the vocalizations.00:18:26
But in humans and in parrots
and in some other species,00:18:29
somehow, we acquired circuits00:18:32
where the forebrain has
taken over the brain stem00:18:36
and now using that brain stem,00:18:38
not only to produce the innate
behaviors or vocal behaviors,00:18:41
but the learned ones as well.00:18:43
- Do we have any sense00:18:44
of when modern or
sophisticated language evolved?00:18:50
You know, thinking back to the
species that we evolved from,00:18:54
and even within Homo sapiens,00:18:58
has there been an evolution of language?00:18:59
Has there been a devolution
of language? [laughs]00:19:02
- Yeah.00:19:03
Yeah, I would say,00:19:06
and to be able to answer that question,00:19:08
it does come with the caveat00:19:10
that I think we humans overrate ourselves00:19:13
compared to other species.00:19:15
And so it makes even scientists go astray00:19:20
in trying to hypothesize00:19:21
when, you especially
don't find fossil evidence00:19:23
of language that easily00:19:26
out there in terms of
what happened in the past.00:19:33
Amongst the primates,
which we humans belong to,00:19:35
we are the only ones that00:19:36
have this advanced vocal learning ability.00:19:41
Now, it was assumed that
it was only Homo sapiens,00:19:46
then you can go back in time now00:19:48
based upon genomic data,00:19:51
not only of us living humans,00:19:52
but of the fossils that have been found00:19:54
for Homo sapiens, of Neanderthals,
of Denisovan individuals00:20:00
and discover that our
ancestor, our human ancestors,00:20:05
supposedly hybridized with
these other hominid species.00:20:10
And it was assumed that
these other hominid species00:20:13
don't learn how to imitate sounds.00:20:16
I don't know of any species today00:20:18
that's a vocal learner
that can have children00:20:21
with a non-vocal learning species.00:20:23
I don't see it.00:20:24
Doesn't mean it didn't exist.00:20:26
And when we look at the genetic data00:20:28
from these ancestral
hominids, that, you know,00:20:33
where we can look at
genes that are involved00:20:35
in learned vocal communication,00:20:37
they have the same
sequence as we humans do00:20:41
for genes that function
in speech circuits.00:20:43
So I think Neanderthals
had spoken language.00:20:46
I'm not going to say it's as
advanced as what it is in humans.00:20:48
I don't know.00:20:50
But I think it's been there for at least00:20:52
between 500,000 to a million years00:20:55
that our ancestors had this ability00:20:58
and that we've been coming
more and more advanced with it00:21:00
culturally and possibly genetically.00:21:04
But I think it's evolved sometime00:21:06
in the last 500,000 to a million years.00:21:08
- Incredible.00:21:10
Maybe we could talk a little bit more00:21:11
about the overlap between brain circuits00:21:14
that control language and speech00:21:16
in humans and other animals.00:21:20
I was weaned in the neuroscience era00:21:23
where birdsong and the ability of birds00:21:27
to learn their tooter song00:21:29
was and still is a prominent field,00:21:32
subfield of neuroscience.00:21:33
And then of course,00:21:34
neuroimaging of humans speaking
and learning, et cetera,00:21:39
and this notion of a critical period,00:21:41
a time in which language
is learned more easily00:21:44
than it is later in life.00:21:46
And the names of the different brain areas00:21:48
were quite different.00:21:50
If one opens the textbooks,00:21:52
we hear Wernicke's and
Broca's for the humans.00:21:54
And you look at the birds of it,00:21:55
I remember, you know.00:21:57
- HVC.
- Robustus, striatum.00:21:59
Area X.
- That's right.00:22:00
That's right, yes.
- Et cetera.00:22:02
But for most of our listeners,00:22:04
those names won't mean a whole lot,00:22:06
but in terms of homologies00:22:10
between areas in terms of
function, what do we know?00:22:13
And how similar or different
are the brain areas00:22:17
controlling speech and language00:22:18
in say a songbird and a young human child?00:22:22
- Yeah, so, going back to the 1950s00:22:26
or even a little earlier,00:22:27
and Peter Muller and others who
got involved in neurotology,00:22:31
the study of neurobiology of behavior00:22:34
in a natural way, right.00:22:37
You know, they start to
find that behaviorally,00:22:40
there are these species of birds00:22:42
like songbirds and parrots,00:22:43
and now we also know
hummingbirds, just three of them00:22:46
out of the 40-something bird
groups out there on the planet,00:22:48
orders, that they can
imitate sounds like we do.00:22:52
And so that was a similarity.00:22:54
In other words, they had
this kind of behavior00:22:56
that's more similar to us
than chimpanzees have with us00:22:59
or than chickens have with them, right,00:23:01
their closer relatives.00:23:03
And then they discovered
even more similarities,00:23:05
these critical periods
that if you remove a child,00:23:10
you know, this unfortunately
happens where a child is feral00:23:13
and is not raised with human00:23:14
and goes through their
puberty phase of growth,00:23:18
it becomes hard for them to
learn a language as an adult.00:23:21
So there's this critical
period where you learn best.00:23:24
And even later on, when
you're in regular society,00:23:26
it's hard to learn.00:23:27
Well, the birds undergo these same thing.00:23:30
And then it was discovered
that if they become deaf,00:23:33
we humans become deaf,00:23:35
our speech starts to deteriorate00:23:37
without any kind of therapy.00:23:40
If a non-human primate or, you know,00:23:43
or let's say a chicken becomes deaf,00:23:46
their vocalizations don't deteriorate.00:23:48
very little at least.00:23:50
Well, this happens in
the vocal learning birds.00:23:52
So there were all these
behavioral parallels00:23:54
that came along with a package,00:23:56
and then people looked into the brain.00:23:58
Fernando Nottebohm, my former PhD advisor,00:24:01
and began to discover the
Area X you talked about,00:24:05
the robust nucleus of the archipallium.00:24:09
And these brain pathways were not found00:24:12
in the species who couldn't imitate00:24:13
so there was a parallel here.00:24:15
And then jumping many
years later, you know,00:24:18
I started to dig down
into these brain circuits00:24:21
to discover that these brain circuits00:24:23
had parallel functions with
the brain circuits for humans,00:24:26
even though they're by a different name,00:24:28
like Broca's laryngeal motor cortex.00:24:30
And most recently,00:24:32
we discovered not only
the actual circuitry00:24:34
and the connectivity are similar,00:24:36
but the underlying
genes that are expressed00:24:39
in these brain regions
in a specialized way,00:24:41
different from the rest of the brain,00:24:43
are also similar between humans,
and songbirds and parrots.00:24:46
So all the way down to the genes.00:24:48
And now we're finding
the specific mutations00:24:51
are also similar, not always
identical, but similar,00:24:54
which indicates remarkable convergence00:24:57
for a so-called complex behavior00:24:59
in species separated by 300 million years00:25:01
from a common ancestor.00:25:02
And not only that,00:25:04
we are discovering that
mutations in these genes00:25:08
that cause speech deficits
in humans, like in FOXP2,00:25:13
if you put those same mutations00:25:15
or similar type of deficits
in these vocal learning birds,00:25:18
you get similar deficits.00:25:19
So convergence of the behavior00:25:21
is associated with
similar genetic disorders00:25:24
of the behavior.00:25:25
- Incredible.00:25:26
I have to ask, do hummingbird
sing, or do they hum?00:25:31
- Hummingbirds hum with their wings00:25:32
and sing with their syrinx.00:25:34
- In a coordinated way?00:25:36
- In a coordinated way.00:25:37
There's some species of
hummingbirds that actually will,00:25:43
Doug Ashler showed this,00:25:44
that will flap their wings00:25:46
and create a slapping
sound with their wings00:25:49
that's in unison with their song00:25:52
and you would not know it,00:25:54
but it sounds like a particular
syllable in their songs,00:25:58
even though it's their wings00:26:00
and their voice at the same time.00:26:02
- Hummingbirds are clapping to their song?00:26:04
- Clapping with their,00:26:05
they're snapping their wings together00:26:08
in unison with a song to make it like,00:26:10
if I'm going ba, da, da,
da [bangs], but, da [bangs]00:26:14
and I banged on the table00:26:15
except they make it almost
sound like their voice00:26:18
with their wings.00:26:20
- Incredible.
- Yes.00:26:21
- I, I'm...00:26:22
- And they got some of the
smallest brains around.00:26:23
- As the kids would say mind blown, right?00:26:25
- Yes. Yes.00:26:26
- Incredible.
- Yes.00:26:27
- Incredible, I love hummingbirds.00:26:28
And I always feel like
it's such a special thing00:26:31
to get a moment to see one00:26:32
because they move around so fast00:26:33
and they fled away so fast in
these ballistic trajectories.00:26:36
- [Erich] Yep.00:26:37
- That when you get to see
one stationary for a moment,00:26:40
or even just hovering there,00:26:42
you feel like you're extracting so much00:26:44
from their little microcosm of life,00:26:47
but now I realize they're
playing music essentially.00:26:49
- Right, exactly.00:26:50
And what's amazing about hummingbirds00:26:53
and I'm going to say, vocal
learning species in general,00:26:56
is that for whatever reason,00:26:58
they seem to evolve
multiple complex traits.00:27:01
You know, this idea that
the evolving language,00:27:04
spoken language in particular,00:27:06
comes along with a set of specializations.00:27:09
- Incredible.
- Yeah.00:27:11
- When I was coming up in neuroscience,00:27:13
I learned that I think it
was the work of Peter Muller00:27:17
that young birds learn,00:27:20
songbirds learned their tooter
song and learn it quite well,00:27:26
but that they could learn
the song of another tooter.00:27:29
In other words, they
could learn a different,00:27:31
and for the listeners,
I'm doing air quotes here,00:27:32
"a different language",00:27:33
"a different bird song",00:27:35
different than their own species song.00:27:37
But never as well as they could learn00:27:39
their own natural genetically linked song.00:27:44
- Yes.
- Genetically linked,00:27:45
meaning that it would be like00:27:47
me being raised in a different culture,00:27:48
and that I would learn the other language,00:27:52
but not as well as I would
have learned English.00:27:55
This is the idea.
- Yes.00:27:57
- Is that true?
- That is true, yes.00:27:59
And that's what I learned
growing up as well.00:28:01
And talked to Peter Muller
himself about before he passed.00:28:05
Yeah, he used to call it the
innate predisposition to learn.00:28:09
All right.00:28:10
So which would be kind of the equivalent00:28:13
in the linguistic community
of universal grammar.00:28:16
There is something genetically00:28:19
influencing our vocal communication00:28:23
on top of what we learned culturally.00:28:25
And so there's this balance00:28:27
between the genetic control of speech00:28:29
or a song in these birds00:28:31
and the learned cultural control.00:28:34
And so, yes, if you were to take,00:28:38
you know, I mean, in this case,00:28:40
we actually tried this
at Rockefeller later on.00:28:42
Take a zebra finch and
raise it with a canary,00:28:46
it would sing a song00:28:48
that was sort of like a hybrid in between.00:28:49
We call it a can-inch, right?00:28:51
[both laughing]00:28:53
And vice versa for the canary,00:28:55
because there's something different00:28:56
about their vocal musculature00:28:57
or the circuitry in the brain.00:29:00
And with a zebra finch, even
with a closely related species,00:29:03
if you would take a zebra
finch, a young animal,00:29:07
and in one cage next to
it placed its own species,00:29:10
adult male, right.00:29:12
And in the other cage placed
a Bengalese finch next to it,00:29:15
it would preferably learn the song00:29:17
from its own species neighbor.00:29:20
But if you remove its neighbor,00:29:22
it would learn that
Bengalese finch very well.00:29:24
- [Andrew] Fantastic.00:29:26
- It has something to do
with also the social bonding00:29:29
with your own species.00:29:30
- Incredible.00:29:31
That raises a question that I,00:29:33
based on something I also heard,00:29:34
but I don't have any scientific00:29:37
peer-reviewed publication to point to,00:29:38
which is this idea of Pidgin not the bird,00:29:41
but this idea of when multiple cultures00:29:45
and languages converge in
a given geographic area,00:29:47
that the children of all the
different native languages00:29:50
will come up with their own language.00:29:53
I think this was in island culture,00:29:55
maybe in Hawaii, called Pidgin,00:29:56
which is sort of a hybrid
of the various languages00:29:59
that their parents speak at home00:30:01
and that they themselves speak.00:30:03
And that somehow Pidgin
again, not the bird,00:30:06
but a language called Pidgin,00:30:08
for reasons, I don't know,00:30:10
harbors certain basic
elements of all language.00:30:14
Is that true?00:30:15
Is that not true?00:30:17
- I would say, I haven't
studied enough myself00:30:19
in terms of Pidgin, specifically,00:30:21
but in terms of cultural
evolution of language00:30:24
and hybridization between
different cultures and so forth,00:30:27
even amongst birds with different dialects00:30:30
and you bring them together, you know,00:30:33
what is going on here
is cultural evolution00:30:37
remarkably tracks genetic evolution.00:30:41
So if you bring people00:30:43
from two separate populations together00:30:45
that have been in their
separate populations,00:30:47
evolutionarily, at least
for hundreds of generations,00:30:51
so someone's speaking Chinese,00:30:52
someone's speaking English,00:30:54
and that child is then
learning from both of them.00:30:58
Yes, that child's going
to be able to pick up00:31:00
and merge phonemes and words together00:31:06
in a way that an adult
wouldn't, because, why?00:31:09
They're experiencing both
languages at the same time00:31:12
during their critical period years,00:31:16
in a way that adults would
not be able to experience.00:31:19
And so you get a hybrid.00:31:21
And the lowest common denominator00:31:23
is going to be what they share.00:31:25
And so the phonemes
that they've re retained00:31:27
in each of their languages
is what's going to be,00:31:31
I imagine, used the most.00:31:33
- Interesting.00:31:35
So we've got brain circuits
in songbirds and in humans00:31:40
that in many ways are similar,00:31:41
perhaps not in their exact wiring,00:31:43
but in their basic contour of wiring.00:31:45
And genes that are expressed00:31:47
in both sets of neural circuits
in very distinct species00:31:51
that are responsible for these phenomenon00:31:54
we're calling speech and language.00:31:56
What sorts of things are
those genes controlling?00:32:00
I could imagine they were
controlling the wiring00:32:03
of connections between brain areas.00:32:04
You know, essentially a map
of, you know, of a circuit,00:32:08
basically like an engineer00:32:09
would design a circuit
for speech and language,00:32:11
nature designed the circuit
for speech and language,00:32:14
but presumably other things too.00:32:16
Like the ability to connect motor patterns00:32:22
within the throat of
muscles within the throat,00:32:24
or in the control of the tongue.00:32:26
I mean, what are these genes doing?00:32:27
- You're pretty good, yeah.00:32:29
You've made some very good
guesses there that makes sense.00:32:34
So, yes, one of the things that differ00:32:36
in the speech pathways of us00:32:38
and these song pathways of birds00:32:39
is some of the connections
are fundamentally different00:32:42
than the surrounding circuits,00:32:44
like a direct cortical connection00:32:47
from the areas that control
vocalizations in the cortex00:32:50
or the motor neurons
that control the larynx,00:32:52
in humans or the syrinx in birds.00:32:54
And so we actually made a prediction00:32:57
that since some of these
connections differ,00:33:00
we're going to find genes that
control neural connectivity,00:33:03
and that specialize in
that function, that differ.00:33:05
And that's exactly what we found.00:33:09
Genes that control what
we call axon guidance00:33:11
and form neuronal connections,00:33:12
and what was interesting,00:33:14
it was sort of in the opposite
direction that we expected.00:33:17
That is, some of these genes,00:33:20
actually, a number of them00:33:21
that control neural
connectivity were turned off00:33:24
in the speech circuit, all right.00:33:27
And it didn't make sense to us at first00:33:29
until we started to realize the function00:33:31
of these genes are to repel
connections from forming,00:33:34
so repulsive molecules.00:33:36
And so when you turn them off,00:33:38
they allow certain connections to form00:33:40
that normally would have not formed.00:33:42
So by turning it off,00:33:43
you gain a function for speech, right?00:33:47
Other genes that surprised us00:33:49
were genes involved in calcium
buffering neuroprotection,00:33:54
like Parvalbumin or heat-shock proteins,00:33:56
so when your brain gets
hot, these proteins turn on.00:33:59
And we couldn't figure
out for a long time,00:34:01
why is that the case?00:34:03
And then the idea popped
to me one day and said, ah,00:34:06
when I heard the larynx is
the fastest firing muscles00:34:09
in the body, all right.00:34:11
In order to vibrate sound00:34:14
and modulate sound in the way we do,00:34:16
you have to control,00:34:18
you have to move those muscles, you know,00:34:20
three to four to five times faster00:34:23
than just regular walking or running.00:34:25
And so when you stick electrodes00:34:28
in the brain areas that
control learned vocalizations00:34:31
in these birds and I
think in humans as well,00:34:34
those neurons are firing at a higher rate00:34:36
to control these muscles.00:34:38
And so what is that going to do?00:34:40
You're going to have lots of
toxicity in those neurons,00:34:43
unless you upregulate molecules00:34:45
that take out the extra load00:34:48
that is needed to control the larynx.00:34:50
And then finally, a third set of genes00:34:52
that are specialized
in these speech circuit00:34:55
are involved in neuroplasticity.00:34:57
Neuroplasticity, meaning
allowing the brain circuits00:35:01
to be more flexible so
you can learn better.00:35:05
And why is that?00:35:06
I think learning how to produce speech00:35:09
is a more complex learning ability00:35:12
than say learning how to walk00:35:14
or learning how to do tricks00:35:17
and jumps and so forth that dogs do.00:35:19
- Yeah, it's interesting as you say that,00:35:21
because I realize that
many aspects of speech00:35:24
are sort of reflexive.00:35:25
I'm not thinking about
each word I'm going to say,00:35:27
they just sort of roll out of my mouth,00:35:29
hopefully with some forethought.00:35:31
We both know people that
seem to speak, think less,00:35:35
fewer synapses between
their brain and their mouth00:35:37
than others, right.
- Yes.00:35:38
- A lot of examples out there,00:35:39
and some people are very
deliberate in their speech,00:35:41
but nonetheless, that much
of speech has to be precise.00:35:46
And some of it less precise.00:35:49
In terms of plasticity of speech00:35:51
and the ability to learn
multiple languages,00:35:53
but even just one language,00:35:55
what's going on in the critical period,00:35:57
the so-called critical period?
- Yeah.00:35:59
- Why is it that, so my
niece speaks Spanish.00:36:02
She's Guatemalan and speaks Spanish00:36:04
and English incredibly well.00:36:06
She's 14-years-old.00:36:08
I've struggled with Spanish my whole life.00:36:09
My father is bilingual.00:36:10
My mother is not.00:36:11
I've tried to learn Spanish as an adult.00:36:13
It's really challenging.00:36:15
I'm told that had I learned
it when I was eight,00:36:18
I would be better off.
- That's right.00:36:19
- Or it would be installed within me.00:36:22
So the first question is,00:36:24
is it easier to learn multiple languages00:36:26
without an accent early in life?00:36:28
And if so, why?00:36:29
And then the second question is00:36:30
if one can already speak
more than one language00:36:34
as a consequence of childhood learning,00:36:36
is it easier to acquire
new languages later on?00:36:40
- So, the answer to both of
those questions is yes, in that,00:36:44
but to explain this, I
need to let you know,00:36:49
actually the entire brain00:36:51
is undergoing a critical
period development,00:36:54
not just the speech pathways.00:36:56
And so it's easier to
learn how to play a piano.00:36:59
It's easier to learn how to ride a bike00:37:01
for the first time and so forth00:37:03
as a young child than it is later in life.00:37:07
What I mean easier in
terms of when you start00:37:11
from first principles
of learning something.00:37:13
So the very first time,00:37:15
if you're going to
learn Chinese as a child00:37:17
versus the very first time
you learn Chinese as an adult00:37:20
or learning to play piano
as a child versus an adult.00:37:24
But the speech pathways,00:37:26
or let's say speech behavior,00:37:28
I think has a stronger critical period00:37:31
change to it than other circuits.00:37:34
And why, what's going on there in general?00:37:39
Why do you need a critical period00:37:41
to make you more stable,00:37:43
to make you more stubborn, so to speak?00:37:47
The reason I believe is
that the brain is not for,00:37:52
the brain can only hold
so much information.00:37:55
And if you are undergoing
rapid learning to learn,00:38:01
to acquire new knowledge,00:38:02
you also have to, you know, dumb stuff.00:38:05
Put in memory or information in the trash,00:38:08
like in a computer.00:38:10
You only have so many gigabases of memory.00:38:13
And so therefore, plus also for survival,00:38:17
you don't want to keep forgetting things.00:38:19
And so the brain is designed, I believe,00:38:23
to undergo this critical period00:38:25
and solidify the circuits with
what you learned as a child00:38:29
and you use that for
the rest of your life.00:38:31
And we humans stay even more
plastic in our brain functions00:38:36
controlled by a gene called srGAP2.00:38:38
We have an extra copy of it00:38:40
that leads our speech circuit
and other brain regions00:38:42
in a more immature state throughout life00:38:44
compared to other animals.00:38:46
So we're more immature.00:38:47
We're still juvenile like
compared to other animals.00:38:49
- I knew it.00:38:50
- But we still go through
the critical periods00:38:52
like they all do.00:38:54
And now the question you asked about,00:38:57
if you learn more languages as a child,00:39:01
is it easier to learn as an adult?00:39:03
And that's a common finding
out there in the literature.00:39:06
There's some that argue against it.00:39:08
But for those that support
it, the idea there is,00:39:11
you are born with a set of innate sounds00:39:14
you can produce of phonemes.00:39:16
And you narrow that down00:39:18
because not all languages use all of them.00:39:20
And so you narrow down the ones00:39:21
you use to string the phonemes together,00:39:24
in words that you learn00:39:26
and you maintain those
phonemes as an adult.00:39:29
And here comes along another language00:39:31
that's using those phonemes00:39:32
or in different combinations
you're not used to.00:39:36
And therefore, it's like
starting from first principles,00:39:39
but if you already have them00:39:41
in multiple languages that you're using,00:39:43
then it makes it easier to use them00:39:45
in another third or fourth language.00:39:47
- I see, incredible.00:39:49
- So, it's not like your brain00:39:52
has maintained greater plasticity,00:39:54
it's your brain has
maintained greater ability00:39:57
to produce different sounds00:39:59
that then allows you to learn
another language faster.00:40:02
- Got it.00:40:03
Are the hand gestures
associated with sounds00:40:08
or with meanings of words?00:40:10
- I think the hand gestures are associated00:40:11
with both the sounds and the meaning.00:40:14
When I say sound like if
you are really angry, right,00:40:19
and you are making a loud
screaming noise, right,00:40:22
you may make hand gestures00:40:25
that look like you're going
to beat the wall, right?00:40:27
Because you're making loud
sounds and loud gestures, right.00:40:32
But if you want to explain
something like, come over here,00:40:35
what I just do now to you
for those who can't see me,00:40:38
I swung my hand towards you
and swung it here to me.00:40:41
That has a meaning to it, to come here.00:40:44
So just like with the voice,00:40:46
the hand gestures are
producing both, you know,00:40:51
both qualities of sound.00:40:53
- And for people that
speak multiple languages,00:40:55
especially those that learn
those multiple languages00:40:58
early in development,00:40:59
do they switch their
patterns of motor movements00:41:02
according to let's say,00:41:04
going from Italian to Arabic00:41:06
or from Arabic to French00:41:08
in a way that matches
the precision of language00:41:12
that they're speaking?00:41:13
- You know what?00:41:14
You just asked me a question,00:41:15
I don't know the answer to.00:41:17
I would imagine that would
make sense because of switching00:41:23
in terms of sometimes people
might call this code switching,00:41:25
even different dialects
of the same language.00:41:28
Could you do that with your gestures?00:41:30
I imagine so, but I really don't
know if that's true or not.00:41:34
- Okay, well, I certainly don't
know from my own experience00:41:35
because I only speak one language.00:41:37
[both laughing]00:41:39
Before we continue with
today's discussion,00:41:41
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To go a little bit into the
abstract, but not too far,00:42:57
what about modes of speech and language00:42:59
that seem to have a depth
of emotionality and meaning,00:43:03
but for which it departs
from structured language.00:43:06
Here's what I mean, poetry.
- Hmm hmm.00:43:09
- I think of musicians,00:43:11
like there's some Bob
Dylan songs that, to me,00:43:14
I understand the individual words.00:43:17
I like to think there's an
emotion associated with it.00:43:20
at least, I experience
some sort of emotion00:43:21
and I have a guess about
what he was experiencing.00:43:25
But if I were to just read
it linearly without the music00:43:29
and without him singing it, or
somebody singing it like him,00:43:32
it wouldn't hold any meaning.00:43:33
So in other words, words
that seem to have meaning,00:43:37
but not associated with language,00:43:39
but somehow tap into an emotionality.00:43:43
- Yep, absolutely.00:43:45
So, we call this difference
semantic communication,00:43:49
communication with meaning00:43:51
and effective communication,00:43:52
communication that has more00:43:54
of an emotional feeling content to it,00:43:57
you know, but not with,
you know, the semantics.00:44:00
And the two can be mixed up,00:44:02
like with singing words that have meaning,00:44:05
but also have this effect of emotional,00:44:07
you just love the sound of the
singer that you're hearing.00:44:12
And initially, you know,00:44:16
psychologists, scientists, in general,00:44:18
thought that these were
going to be controlled00:44:20
by different brain circuits.00:44:23
And it is the case.00:44:24
There are emotional brain
centers in the hypothalamus,00:44:27
in the cingulate cortex and so forth,00:44:29
that do give tone to the sounds.00:44:33
But I believe, you know,
based upon imaging work00:44:37
and work we see in birds,00:44:39
when birds are communicating
semantic information00:44:42
in their sounds, which is not
too often, but it happens,00:44:45
versus effective communication,00:44:48
sing because I'm trying
to attract the mate,00:44:50
my courtship song or defend my territory,00:44:53
it's the same brain circuits.00:44:54
It's the same speech-like or song,00:44:56
circuits are being used in different ways.00:45:00
- A friend of mine, who's
also a therapist, said to me,00:45:03
you know, it's possible to say,00:45:05
I love you with intense hatred00:45:07
than to say, I hate you with intense love.00:45:10
- [Eric] Right.00:45:11
- And reminding me that
it's possible to hear00:45:12
both of those statements in either way.00:45:15
So I guess it's not just
limited to song or poetry.00:45:19
It also, there's something
about the intention00:45:23
and the emotional context
in which something spoken00:45:27
that it can heavily shape the way00:45:29
that we interpret what we hear.00:45:31
- That's right.00:45:32
And I consider all of
that actually, meaning,00:45:35
even though I defined it as,00:45:37
people commonly do semantic
and effective communication.00:45:41
Effective communication
to say, I hate you,00:45:43
but meant love, right,00:45:47
does have emotional
meaning to it, you know?00:45:51
And so, you know, one's more
like an object kind of meaning00:45:53
or an abstract kind of meaning.00:45:55
There's several other points here00:45:56
I think it's important for those
listening out there to hear00:46:00
is that when I say also00:46:02
this effective and semantic communication00:46:07
being used by similar brain circuits,00:46:08
it also matters, the side of the brain.00:46:11
In birds and in humans,00:46:14
there's left-right dominance00:46:17
for learned communication,
learned sound communication.00:46:21
So the left in us humans is
more dominant for speech,00:46:25
but the right has a
more balance for singing00:46:29
or processing musical sounds00:46:31
as opposed to processing speech.00:46:32
Both get used for both reasons.00:46:34
And so when people say your right brain00:46:37
is your artistic brain00:46:39
and your left brain is
your thinking brain,00:46:41
this is what they're referring to.00:46:43
And so that's another distinction.00:46:46
A second thing that's useful to know00:46:49
is that all vocal learning species00:46:51
use their learned sounds
for this emotional00:46:55
effective kind of communication,00:46:58
but only a few of them like humans00:47:00
and some parrots and dolphins00:47:02
use it for the semantic
kind of communication,00:47:05
we're calling speech.00:47:07
And that has led a number
of people to hypothesize00:47:11
that the evolution of
spoken language, of speech,00:47:14
evolved first for singing,00:47:17
for this more like emotional00:47:19
kind of mate attraction
like the Jennifer Lopez,00:47:22
the Ricky Martin kind
of songs and so forth.00:47:25
And then later on,00:47:27
it became used for abstract communication00:47:29
like we're doing now.00:47:31
- Oh, interesting.00:47:32
Well, that's a perfect segue for me00:47:34
to be able to ask you
about your background00:47:38
and motor control, not only
of the hands but of the body.00:47:42
So you have a number of important
distinctions to your name,00:47:46
but one of them is that you were a member00:47:49
of the Alvin Ailey Dance School,00:47:52
School of Dance.
- That's right. That's right, hmm hmm.00:47:54
- So you're an accomplished00:47:55
and quite able dancer, right?00:47:58
Tell us a little bit about your background00:48:00
in the world of dance00:48:03
and how it informs your
interest in neuroscience,00:48:07
[clears throat], excuse me,00:48:08
and perhaps even how it relates00:48:09
specifically to your work
on speech and language.00:48:12
- Yes, well, it's interesting.00:48:14
And then this kind of history
even goes before my time.00:48:17
So in my family, my
mother and father's side,00:48:19
they both went to the High
School of Music and Art00:48:21
here in New York City.00:48:23
And particularly, in my mother's family,00:48:25
going back multiple
generations, they were singers.00:48:28
And I even did my family genealogy00:48:30
and found out not only, you know,00:48:32
we have some relationships
to some well-known singers,00:48:35
distant relationships
like Thelonious Monk,00:48:37
but going back to the plantations00:48:40
in North Carolina and so forth,00:48:42
my ancestors were singers in the church00:48:45
for the, you know, the towns and so forth.00:48:47
And this somehow got passed on00:48:49
multiple generations to my family.00:48:51
And I thought I was going to grow up00:48:53
and be a famous singer, right.00:48:55
And me and my brothers and sister00:48:57
formed a band when we
were kids and so forth.00:49:01
But it turned out that I didn't inherit00:49:04
the singing talents of some
of my other family members,00:49:07
even though, you know,
I was, you know, okay.00:49:10
You know, but not like my brother,00:49:11
or not like my mother or my
aunts and my cousin Pura Fe',00:49:16
who's now a talented
Native American singer.00:49:18
And so,00:49:23
that then influenced
me to do other things.00:49:27
And I started, you know,
competing in dance contests,00:49:32
you know, actually this is around the time00:49:33
of Saturday Night Fever
and I was as a teenager.00:49:36
And I started winning dance contests.00:49:38
And I thought, oh, I can dance.00:49:40
And I auditioned for the High
School of Performing Arts.00:49:42
And I got in, here in New York City,00:49:45
and got into ballet
dance and got in, right.00:49:48
And thought, if I learned ballet,00:49:49
I can learn everything else.00:49:50
It I that idea, if you
learn something classical,00:49:53
it can teach for everything else.00:49:55
And I was, yeah, at
Alvin Ailey Dance School,00:49:58
Joffrey Ballet Dance School.00:50:00
And at the end of my senior concert,00:50:04
I had this opportunity to audition00:50:06
for the Alvin Ailey Dance Company.00:50:08
And I had an opportunity to go to college.00:50:11
And I also fell in love
with another passion00:50:13
that my father had, which was science.00:50:15
And so I liked science in high school.00:50:18
And I found an overlap also
between the arts and sciences,00:50:22
you know, both required
creativity, hard work, discipline,00:50:26
you know, new discovery,
both weren't boring to me.00:50:29
And the one decision I made
at that senior dance concert00:50:33
was, you know, when talking
to the Alvin Ailey recruiter00:50:36
and thinking about it,00:50:37
I have to make a decision.00:50:39
And I thought something
my mother taught me00:50:42
because she was growing up in
the 1960s cultural revolution,00:50:45
"Do something that has a
positive impact on society."00:50:49
And I thought that I could do that better00:50:51
as a dancer than a scientist.00:50:53
So now jump, I get into
college, undergraduate school,00:50:57
I major in molecular
biology and mathematics.00:51:00
I decide I want to be a biologist,00:51:02
got into graduate school,00:51:03
wanted to study the brain at, you know,00:51:04
at the Rockefeller University.00:51:06
So I went from Hunter College
to Rockefeller University.00:51:09
And so now I got to the brain00:51:11
and why did I choose the brain00:51:14
is because it controls dancing. [laughs]00:51:17
But there wasn't anybody studying dancing.00:51:19
And I wanted study the brain,00:51:21
something that it does00:51:22
that's really interesting and complex.00:51:24
And I thought, ah,
language is what it does.00:51:27
You couldn't study that in mice.00:51:28
You couldn't study in non-human primates.00:51:30
But these birds do this wonderful thing00:51:32
that Fernando Nottebohm was
studying at Rockefeller.00:51:34
And so that's what got me into the birds.00:51:40
And then jumping now, 15 years later,00:51:43
you know, yeah, that's right.00:51:44
Even after I'm into now having my own lab,00:51:48
studying vocal learning in these birds00:51:50
as a model for language and humans,00:51:52
it turns out that, you know,00:51:55
Ani Patel and, you know, others,00:51:58
have discovered that only
vocal learning species00:52:02
can learn how to dance.00:52:04
- Is that right?
- That's right, yes.00:52:07
- So I've seen these just scrolling00:52:09
through the files here in my mind.00:52:12
I think about, every once
in a while someone will,00:52:13
I love parrots.
- Yes.00:52:16
- So every once in a while, someone will send me one
of these little Instagram00:52:19
or Twitter videos of a parrot00:52:20
doing what looks to me like dance,00:52:22
typically it's a cockatoo.
- That's right.00:52:24
- Right.
- That's right. - Even foot stomping to the sound and-00:52:27
- Famous one called Snowball out there,00:52:28
but there are many Snowballs
out there. [laughs]00:52:31
- All the dancing birds
are named Snowball?00:52:33
That's an interesting tactic.00:52:36
So only animals with language dance?00:52:40
- Yeah, vocal learning in particular,00:52:41
the ability to imitate sounds, yes.00:52:44
- Incredible.
- Yes.00:52:45
And this now is bringing
my life full circle, right.00:52:50
And so when that was discovered in 2009,00:52:55
at that same time in my lab at Duke,00:52:57
we had discovered that vocal
learning brain pathways00:53:02
in songbirds, as well as in humans00:53:04
and in parrots, right, like Snowball,00:53:08
are embedded within circuits00:53:09
that control learning how to move.00:53:12
And that led us to a theory
called the Brain Pathway00:53:15
or Motor Theory of Vocal Learning Origin00:53:18
where the brain pathways for
vocal learning and speech00:53:21
evolved by a whole duplication00:53:23
of the surrounding motor circuits00:53:24
involving learning how to move.00:53:27
Now, how does that explain dance, right?00:53:30
Well, when Snowball, the
cockatoos, are dancing,00:53:35
they're using the brain regions00:53:36
around their speech-like circuits00:53:38
to do this dancing behavior.00:53:40
And so what's going on there?00:53:42
What we hypothesize and now like to test00:53:46
is that when this,00:53:49
when speech evolved in humans00:53:51
and the equivalent behavior
and parrots and songbirds,00:53:55
it required a very tight integration00:53:58
in the brain regions that can hear sound00:54:01
with the brain regions
that control your muscles00:54:04
from moving your larynx
and tongue and so forth00:54:07
for producing sound.00:54:09
And that tight auditory motor integration,00:54:11
we argue, then contaminated
the surrounding brain regions.00:54:15
And that contamination of
the surrounding brain regions00:54:18
now allows us humans, in
particular, and parrots.00:54:22
to coordinate our muscle
movements of the rest of the body00:54:26
with sound in the same way
we do for speech sounds.00:54:30
- [Andrew] Well.00:54:31
- So we're speaking with
our bodies when we dance.00:54:33
- Incredible.00:54:34
And I have to say that00:54:36
as poor as I am at speaking
multiple languages,00:54:38
I'm even worse at dancing, so.00:54:41
- But I guarantee you're
better than a monkey.00:54:44
- But not Snowball, the cockatoo?00:54:45
- No, maybe not Snowball.00:54:47
On YouTube, we have a video00:54:48
where there's some scientists
dancing with Snowball00:54:51
and you'll see Snowballs doing better00:54:52
than some of the scientists.00:54:54
- Okay, well, as long as I'm not the worst00:54:55
of all scientists dancing.
- I don't think so.00:54:58
- There's always a neuroplasticity.00:55:00
May it save me someday.00:55:03
You said something incredible00:55:04
that I completely believe
even though I have minimum to,00:55:10
let's just say minimum dancing ability.00:55:12
Okay, I can get by at a party or wedding00:55:14
without complete embarrassment,00:55:16
but I don't have any structured training.00:55:20
So the body clearly can
communicate with movement.00:55:26
As a trained dancer and
knowing other trained dancers,00:55:30
I always think of dance
and bodily movement00:55:34
and communication through bodily movement00:55:36
as a form of wordlessness,00:55:38
like a state of wordlessness.00:55:40
In fact, the few times when I think00:55:42
that maybe I'm actually
dancing modestly well00:55:45
for the context that I'm in,00:55:47
or I see other people dancing00:55:48
and they seem to just be
very much in the movement,00:55:51
it's almost like a state of non-language,00:55:54
non-spoken language.
- Hmm hmm.00:55:57
- And yet what you're telling me is00:55:59
that there's a direct bridge at some level00:56:02
between the movement of
the body and language.00:56:05
So is there a language of the body00:56:08
that is distinct from
the language of speech?00:56:12
And if so, or if not, how do
those map onto one another?00:56:15
What does that Venn diagram look like?00:56:17
- Yeah, yeah.00:56:19
So, let me define first
dance in this context00:56:22
of vocal learning species.00:56:24
This is the kind of dancing00:56:26
that we are specialized in doing00:56:28
and the vocal learning species
are specialized in doing00:56:31
is synchronizing body movements of muscles00:56:34
to the rhythmic beats of music.00:56:37
And for some reason, we like doing that.00:56:39
We like synchronizing to sound00:56:42
and doing it together
as a group of people.00:56:45
And that kind of communication
amongst ourselves00:56:49
is more like the effective
kind of communication00:56:51
I mentioned earlier,00:56:53
unlike the semantic kind.00:56:54
So we, humans, are using our voices more00:56:58
for the semantic, abstract communication,00:57:02
but we're using learned dance00:57:04
for the effective emotional
bonding kind of communication.00:57:09
It doesn't mean we can't
communicate semantic information00:57:12
in dance, and we do it,00:57:14
but it's not as popular.00:57:16
You know, like a ballet that,
you know, in the Nutcracker,00:57:19
it is popular, you know,00:57:21
where they are communicating,00:57:23
you know, the Arabian guy comes out,00:57:25
which I was the Arabian guy
in the ballet Nutcracker.00:57:28
That's how I remember.
- Oh, yeah?00:57:29
- Yeah, for the
Westchester Ballet Company,00:57:30
when I was a teenager.00:57:33
You know, we're trying
to communicate meaning00:57:35
and our ballet dancing, it can go on00:57:37
with a whole story and so forth.00:57:39
But people don't interpret
that as clearly as speech.00:57:42
You know, they're seeing the ballet00:57:44
with semantic communication,00:57:46
with a lot of emotional content,00:57:48
whereas you go out to a club, you know,00:57:51
yeah, you're not communicating,00:57:53
okay, how you're feeling today?00:57:55
Tell me about your day and so forth.00:57:57
You're trying to synchronize
with other people00:57:59
in an effective way.00:58:01
And I think that's because,00:58:04
the dance brain circuit00:58:06
inherited the more ancient
part of the speech circuit,00:58:10
which was for singing.00:58:12
- I always had the feeling00:58:13
that with certain forms of
music, in particular opera,00:58:17
but any kind of music where
there's some long notes sung00:58:23
that at some level,00:58:25
there was a literal resonance created00:58:29
between the singer and the listener.00:58:33
Or I think of like the
deep voice of a Johnny Cash00:58:35
or where at some level,00:58:37
you can almost feel the
voice in your own body.00:58:40
And in theory, that could
be the vibration of the00:58:45
or the firing of the phrenic nerve00:58:46
controlling the diaphragm for all I know.00:58:49
Is there any evidence that
there's a coordination00:58:51
between performer and audience00:58:53
at the level of mind and body?00:59:00
- I'm going to say, possibly, yes.00:59:04
And the reason why is00:59:05
because I just came back from a conference00:59:07
on the neurobiology of dance-00:59:10
- Clearly, I'm going
to the wrong meetings.00:59:12
- Yeah, a colleague invited me.00:59:13
- You know, vision science
sounds be so boring.00:59:14
- Yes, well, one of my colleagues,00:59:16
Tecumseh Fitch and Jonathan Fritz,00:59:18
they organized, well, a particular section00:59:21
on this conference in Virginia.00:59:23
And this is the first
time I was in the room00:59:25
with so many neuroscientists00:59:28
studying the neurobiology of dance.00:59:29
It's a new field now,
in the last five years.00:59:32
And there was one lab00:59:36
where they were putting EEG
electrodes on the dancers,00:59:41
on two different dancers
partnering with each other,00:59:44
as well as the audience,
you know, seeing the dance00:59:49
and some, you know, argued,00:59:50
okay, if you're listening
to the music as well,00:59:52
how are you responding00:59:53
'cause you're asking
a question about music00:59:55
and I'm giving you an answer about dance.00:59:58
And what they found is
that, you know, the dancers,01:00:02
when they resonated with
each other during the dance,01:00:04
or the audience listening to
the dancers and the music,01:00:07
there's some resonance going on there01:00:09
that they've score as higher resonance.01:00:13
Their brain activity with
these wireless EEG signals01:00:16
are showing something different.01:00:18
And so that's why I say possibly, yes.01:00:20
It needs more rigorous study01:00:23
and you know, this is
some stuff they publish,01:00:25
but it's not prime time yet,01:00:27
but they're trying to figure this out.01:00:29
- Love it.01:00:30
So at least if I can't dance well,01:00:32
maybe I can hear and feel01:00:34
what it is to dance in a certain way.01:00:36
- Yes, that's right.01:00:37
And this will be, some
people will think that they,01:00:41
even songs that they hear01:00:43
and they can almost sing to
themselves in their own head01:00:46
and they know what they
want it to sound like.01:00:49
And you know when it really sounds good,01:00:51
what it sounds like,01:00:52
but they can't get their voice to do it.01:00:55
- I'm raising, for those listening,01:00:56
I'm raising my hand.01:00:58
No musical ability.01:01:00
Others in my household have
tremendous musical ability01:01:03
with instruments and
with voice, but not me.01:01:06
- Yeah, well, and so this
is one of my selfish goals01:01:11
of trying to find the genetics01:01:13
of why can some people who
sing really well and some not.01:01:17
Is there some genetic
predisposition to that?01:01:20
And then can I modify my own muscles01:01:22
of brain circuits to sing better?01:01:24
- You're still after the sing.01:01:26
I guess this is what happens01:01:27
when siblings vary in proficiency01:01:30
is that competitiveness amongst brothers01:01:33
and sisters never goes away.01:01:34
- I've been trying to be
as good as my brother,01:01:36
Mark and Victor, you
know, for my entire life.01:01:40
- Well, watch out, Mark and Victor,01:01:41
he's coming for you with
neuroscience to back him.01:01:45
Earlier, you said that you
discovered that you could dance.01:01:49
That caught my ear.01:01:51
It sounds like you
didn't actually have to,01:01:52
I'm not suggesting you
didn't work hard at it.01:01:55
But at the moment where you discovered it,01:01:57
it just sort of was a skill that you had,01:02:00
that up until that point,01:02:01
you didn't target a life
in the world of dance,01:02:06
but the fact that you quote, unquote,01:02:08
"discovered that you
could dance really well"01:02:10
and then went to this
incredible school of dance01:02:11
and did well,01:02:13
tells me that perhaps there is an ability01:02:16
that was built up in childhood01:02:18
and or that perhaps we do all have01:02:21
different genetic leanings
for different motor functions.01:02:24
- Yeah, well, for me, there could be,01:02:27
both explanations could be possible.01:02:29
For the first, yeah,
I grew up in a family,01:02:32
listening to Motown songs,01:02:34
you know, dancing, you know,
at parties and so forth,01:02:37
family parties and, you know,01:02:39
an African American family, basically.01:02:41
And so I grew up dancing
from a young child,01:02:48
but this discovery, you know,
maybe dancing even moreso,01:02:54
in terms of a talent,01:02:57
it could, the genetic component,01:02:58
if it really exists, I don't know.01:03:00
You know, with my 23andMe
results, you know,01:03:03
it says I have the genetic substitutions01:03:07
that are associated with, you know,01:03:10
high intensity athletes
and fast twitch muscles.01:03:13
And who knows.01:03:14
Maybe that could have something to do with01:03:16
me being able to synchronize my body01:03:20
to rhythmic sounds, maybe,01:03:23
maybe, better than some others.01:03:26
It turns out that my genetics also show01:03:28
that I have a genetic substitute01:03:31
that makes it hard for
me to sing on pitch.01:03:34
And so that does correlate
with my, you know,01:03:37
even though I can sing on this pitch,01:03:38
especially if I hear a piano or, you know,01:03:40
kind of playing it, but,01:03:42
you know, maybe that's
why my siblings, you know,01:03:44
who didn't have that
genetic predisposition01:03:47
in his 23andMe results, you know,01:03:49
it could go along with the
genetic component, as well.01:03:52
- I'm imagining family
gatherings with 23andMe data01:03:56
and intense arguments about it,01:03:58
innate and learned ability.
- Yes.01:03:59
- Fun.01:04:01
Love to be an attendant.01:04:02
I'm not inviting myself to
your Thanksgiving dinner01:04:04
by the way, but I suppose I am.01:04:07
- You're welcome to.
- Thank you.01:04:09
I'll bring my 23andMe data.01:04:11
I'd love to chat a moment
about facial expression01:04:14
because that's a form
of motor pattern that,01:04:17
you know, I think for
most people out there01:04:20
just think about smiling and frowning,01:04:22
but there are, of course,
you know, thousands,01:04:24
if not millions of micro expressions01:04:27
and things of that sort,01:04:28
many of which are subconscious.01:04:30
And we are all familiar with the fact that01:04:34
when what somebody says01:04:36
doesn't match some specific feature01:04:38
of their facial expression01:04:40
that it can call, you know,01:04:42
that mismatch can cue our attention,01:04:45
especially among people that
know each other very well.01:04:47
Like somebody will say,
well, you said that,01:04:50
but your right eye
twitched to the, you know,01:04:53
a little bit in a way that tells me01:04:55
that you didn't really mean that,01:04:56
these kinds of things.01:04:57
Or when, in the opposite example,01:05:01
when the emotionality and
the content of our speech01:05:05
is matched to a facial expression,01:05:07
there's something that's
just so wonderful about that,01:05:11
because it seems like
everything's aligned.01:05:12
- [Erich] Yeah.01:05:13
- So how does the motor circuitry01:05:16
that controls facial expression01:05:18
map onto the brain circuits
that control language,01:05:21
speech, and even bodily
and hand movements?01:05:23
- Yeah, and you ask a great question01:05:26
because we both know some colleagues01:05:28
like Winrich Freiwald at
Rockefeller University01:05:30
who study facial expression
and the neurology behind it.01:05:33
And now we both share some
students that we're co-mentoring.01:05:37
And talk about this same
question that you brought up.01:05:41
And what I'm learning a lot01:05:43
is that non-human primates
have a lot of diversity01:05:46
in their facial expression
like we humans do.01:05:49
And what we know about the neurobiology01:05:52
of brain regions controlling
those muscles of the face01:05:55
is that these non-human primates01:05:57
and some other species that don't learn01:05:58
how to imitate vocalizations,01:06:00
they have strong connections
from the cortical regions01:06:05
to the motor neurons that
control facial expressions,01:06:09
but absent connections or weak connections01:06:12
to the motor neurons
that control the voice.01:06:14
So I think our diverse facial expression,01:06:18
even though it's more diverse
in these non-human primates,01:06:21
there was already a preexisting
diversity of communication,01:06:25
whether it's intentional or unconscious01:06:28
through facial expression
in our ancestors.01:06:31
And on top of that, we
humans now add the voice01:06:35
along with those facial expressions.01:06:38
- I see.01:06:39
And in terms of language
learning when we're kids,01:06:42
I mean, children, fortunately are not told01:06:45
to fake their expressions01:06:46
or to smile when they say I'm happy.01:06:49
So at some point, everybody
learns, for better or for worse,01:06:52
how to untangle these different
components of hand movement,01:06:58
body posture, speech,
and facial expression.01:07:01
- [Erich] Yes.01:07:02
- But in their best form, I would say,01:07:05
assuming that the best form is always,01:07:07
I guess there are
instances where, you know,01:07:09
for safety reasons, one might need01:07:10
to fain some of these aspects of language.01:07:13
But in most cases, when those are aligned,01:07:16
it seems like that could reflect that01:07:19
all the different circuitries
are operating in parallel,01:07:22
but that the ability to misalign these01:07:25
is also a powerful
aspect to our maturation.01:07:29
I can think of theater, for instance,01:07:31
where deliberate disentangling
of these areas is important.01:07:36
But also we know when an actor,01:07:39
when it feels real.
- Yep.01:07:41
- And when it looks like,01:07:42
when bad acting is oftentimes01:07:44
when the facial expression or body posture01:07:46
just doesn't quite match
what we're hearing.01:07:48
- [Erich] Yeah. - So are these skills that people,01:07:52
that learn and acquire according01:07:53
to adaptability and profession?01:07:55
Or do you think that all
children and all adults01:07:58
eventually learn how to couple01:08:00
and uncouple these circuits a little bit?01:08:02
- Yeah, I think it's this similar argument01:08:05
I mentioned earlier about
the innate and learned01:08:08
for the vocalizations.01:08:09
And by the way, when I say,01:08:10
we humans have facial expressions01:08:12
associated with our vocalizations01:08:14
in a different way than
primates, non-human primates,01:08:17
it's the learned vocalizations
I'm talking about.01:08:19
So there is a common view out there01:08:23
that facial expressions
in non-human species01:08:26
like nonhuman primates,01:08:28
or you can have them in birds, too,01:08:30
are innate, all right.01:08:33
And so they're reflexive and controlled.01:08:36
I don't believe that.01:08:37
I think there's some
learned component to it.01:08:38
And I think we have more
learning component to it as well,01:08:41
but we also have an innate component.01:08:44
And so if you try to put
your hands behind your back01:08:48
and hold your fist, or even just not,01:08:49
and try to speak and try to communicate,01:08:52
it's actually harder to do.01:08:53
You have to force yourself
or put it by your side.01:08:57
This comes naturally.01:08:58
Facial expressions comes naturally01:08:59
because there's an innate component.01:09:02
And yes, you have to learn
how to dissociate the two,01:09:06
communicate something
angry with your hands01:09:08
or with your face,01:09:09
but, you know, politely with your voice.01:09:13
It's very hard to separate those two,01:09:16
because there is that innate component01:09:18
that brings them together.01:09:21
So it's like an email, too.01:09:22
You're emailing and someone
says something by email,01:09:25
someone can interpret
that angrily or gently,01:09:30
and it becomes ambiguous.01:09:32
The facial expressions
get rid of that ambiguity.01:09:36
- So glad you brought that up01:09:37
because my next question was,01:09:38
and is about written language.01:09:41
The first question I'll
ask is when you write,01:09:44
either type or write things out by hand,01:09:46
do you hear the content
of what you want to write01:09:51
in your head?01:09:52
Just, you personally.01:09:54
- Yes, I do.01:09:55
Yeah, and I know that I do,01:09:59
because I was trying to figure
out a debate about this issue01:10:03
and trying to resolve the debate01:10:06
with my own self experimentation on me.01:10:09
- I asked that because,01:10:11
a quite well-known colleague of ours,01:10:12
Karl Deisseroth at Stanford,01:10:14
who's been on this podcast, you know,01:10:16
his optogenetics fame and
psychiatry fame, et cetera.01:10:18
- Yeah, I know him.
- Yeah, he sends his regards.01:10:21
- Okay. [laughs]01:10:22
- Told me that his practice for writing01:10:27
and for thinking involves
a quite painful process01:10:32
of forcing himself to sit completely still01:10:36
and think in complete sentences,01:10:38
to force thinking in complete sentences.01:10:40
And when he told me that,01:10:41
I decided to try this exercise
and it's quite difficult.01:10:43
First of all, it's difficult01:10:44
for the reason that you mentioned,01:10:46
which is that with many thoughts,01:10:48
I want to look around01:10:49
and I start to gesticulate
with my hands, right?01:10:52
So there it is, again,01:10:53
the connection between
language and hand movement,01:10:55
even if one isn't speaking.01:10:58
And the other part that's challenging is01:11:01
I realize that while we
write in complete sentences,01:11:05
most of the time, we'll talk
about how that's changing now.01:11:08
- Right.
- In texting, et cetera.01:11:10
That we don't often think
in complete sentences,01:11:14
and specifically in simple
declarative sentences,01:11:18
that a lot of our thoughts would be,01:11:20
if they were written out onto a page01:11:23
would look pretty much
like passive language01:11:27
that a good copy editor or
a good editor would say,01:11:30
ugh, like we need to cross this out,01:11:31
make this simple and declarative.01:11:33
So what I'm getting at here is01:11:35
what is the process of going
from a thought to language,01:11:40
to written word?01:11:42
And I also wanted to touch
on handwritten versus typed,01:11:46
but thought to language, to written word.01:11:49
What's going on there?01:11:50
What do we know about
the neural circuitry?01:11:53
And I was going to ask, why is it so hard?01:11:55
But now I want to ask why
is this even possible?01:11:58
It seems like a very challenging01:12:00
neural computational problem.01:12:02
- Yeah, yeah.01:12:03
And coming from the linguistic world,01:12:07
and even just the regular
neurobiology world,01:12:10
going back to something I said before01:12:11
about a separate language
module in the brain.01:12:14
You know, there was this
thought or hypothesis01:12:16
that this language module01:12:18
has all these complex algorithms to them.01:12:21
And they're signaling
to the speech circuit,01:12:24
how to produce the sounds,01:12:26
the hand circuit, how to
write them or gesture,01:12:30
the visual pathway on how to
interpret them from reading01:12:34
and the auditory pathway for listening.01:12:37
I don't think that's the case, all right.01:12:39
And you know, that this thinking where01:12:41
there's this internal speech going on.01:12:43
What I think is going on is01:12:46
to explain what you're asking is about,01:12:48
that I'm going to take
it from the perspective,01:12:50
reading something.01:12:51
You read something on a paper.01:12:53
The signal from the paper
goes through your eyes.01:12:56
It goes to the back of your brain,01:12:58
to your visual cortical
regions eventually.01:13:01
And then you now got to
interpret that signal01:13:04
in your visual pathway
of what you're reading.01:13:07
How are you going to do
that in terms of speech?01:13:09
That visual signal then
goes to your speech pathway01:13:12
in the motor cortex in
front here, in Broca's area.01:13:15
And you silently speak what you read01:13:18
in your brain without moving your muscles.01:13:21
And sometimes actually, if
you put electrodes, EEG,01:13:25
EMG electrodes on your laryngeal muscles,01:13:28
even on birds, you can do this,01:13:30
you'll see activity there while reading01:13:33
or trying to speak silently,01:13:36
even though no sound's coming out.01:13:38
And so your speech pathway01:13:42
is now speaking what you're reading.01:13:45
Now to finish it off,01:13:47
that signal is sent to
your auditory pathways01:13:49
so you can hear what you're
speaking in your own head.01:13:53
- That's incredible.01:13:54
- And this is why it's complicated01:13:56
because you're using like
three different pathways,01:13:59
the visual, the speaking motor one,01:14:01
and the auditory to read.01:14:04
Oh, and then you got to write, right?01:14:06
Okay, here comes the fourth one.01:14:08
Now the hand areas next
to your speech pathway01:14:11
has got to take that auditory signal01:14:13
or even the adjacent
motor signals for speaking01:14:16
and translate it into a
visual signal on paper.01:14:19
So, you're using at least
four brain circuits,01:14:23
which includes the speech production01:14:25
and the speech perception
pathways to write.01:14:28
- Incredible.01:14:29
And finally, explain to me why,01:14:33
so I was weaned teaching undergraduates,01:14:35
graduate students and medical students01:14:37
and I've observed that when I'm teaching,01:14:40
I have to stop speaking01:14:41
if I'm going to write
something on the board.01:14:44
I just have to stop all
speaking completely.01:14:46
- [Erich] Right.01:14:47
- It turns out this is
an advantage to catch01:14:49
because it allows me to catch my voice.01:14:51
It allows me to slow down a bit, you know,01:14:53
breathe and inhale some oxygen and so on01:14:56
because I tend to speak quickly01:14:57
if I'm not writing something out.01:14:59
So there's a break in
the circuitry for me,01:15:02
or at least they are distinct enough01:15:03
that I have to stop and
then write something out.01:15:06
- Yes, that does imply
competing brain circuits01:15:10
for your conscious attention.01:15:13
- We have colleagues up at Columbia Med01:15:16
who are known, at least in our circles,01:15:19
for voice dictating their
papers, not writing them out,01:15:23
but just speaking into a voice recorder.01:15:26
I've written papers that way.01:15:27
It doesn't feel quite as natural for me01:15:31
as writing things out.
- Yeah.01:15:32
- But not because I can
go quickly from thought01:15:35
to language to typing.01:15:36
I type reasonably fast.01:15:38
I can touch type now.01:15:39
I don't think I ever taught my,01:15:40
I think I taught myself.01:15:41
I never took a touch typing course.01:15:43
But it just sort of happened.01:15:44
Now, I think, my motor system01:15:45
seems to know where the keys are01:15:47
with enough accuracy, that it works.01:15:53
This is remarkable to me
that any of us can do this.01:15:56
But when it comes to writing,01:15:59
what I've found is that
if my rate of thought01:16:02
and my rate of writing are
aligned nicely, things go well.01:16:07
However, if I'm thinking
much faster than I can write,01:16:11
that's a problem.01:16:12
And certainly, if I'm thinking more slowly01:16:15
than I want to write,
that's also a problem.01:16:17
And the solution for me01:16:19
has been to write with a pen.01:16:21
I'm in love with these.01:16:22
And I have no relationship to the company,01:16:24
at least not now, although
if they want to come,01:16:26
you know, if they want to work with us,01:16:27
I love these Pilot V5, V7's01:16:29
because not necessarily because of the ink01:16:32
or the feel, although I like that as well.01:16:34
But because of the rate
that it allows me to write,01:16:37
they write very well slowly,01:16:38
and they write very well quickly.01:16:40
And so I have this theory,01:16:43
supported only by my own anecdata,01:16:46
no peer reviewed study,01:16:48
that writing by hand is
fundamentally different01:16:53
than typing out information.01:16:55
Is there any evidence that
this motor pathway for writing01:17:00
is better or somehow different01:17:04
than the motor pathway for typing?01:17:06
- Yeah, that's interesting.01:17:09
And I don't know of any studies.01:17:11
I have my own personal experience as well,01:17:13
but trying to put this into the context,01:17:16
if I had to, you know,01:17:18
design an experiment to test
the hypothesis here that,01:17:21
you know, to explain
your experience and mine,01:17:23
is that writing by hand,01:17:26
I would argue, requires a
different set of less skills01:17:32
with the fingers than typing.01:17:35
So you have to coordinate
your fingers more01:17:38
in opposite directions
and so forth with typing,01:17:42
but also writing by hand
requires more arm movement.01:17:46
And so therefore, I would argue that01:17:52
the difficulty there could be01:17:55
in the types of muscles
and the fine motor control01:17:58
you need of those muscles01:18:00
along with speaking in your
brain at the same time.01:18:02
- So basically, I'm a course, I'm a brute.01:18:04
So it makes sense that I would have,01:18:06
a more primitive writing
device would work.01:18:07
- That's right, yes.01:18:09
But, let me answer this in terms01:18:13
of my own personal experience, right.01:18:14
What I find is I can write
something faster by hand01:18:22
for a short period of
time, compared to typing.01:18:25
And that is because I think01:18:26
I run out of the energy
in my arm movements01:18:30
faster than I run out of muscle energy01:18:32
in my finger movements.01:18:35
And I think it takes longer time01:18:38
for us to write words with our fingers,01:18:41
because, and in terms of the speech.01:18:43
So I think your writing,01:18:46
whether it's by hand or
typing and your speech,01:18:49
they only will align very well01:18:51
if you can type as fast as you can speak01:18:54
or write as fast as you
can speak in your head.01:18:56
- I love it.01:18:57
So what you've done, if
I understand correctly,01:18:59
is created a bridge between
thought and writing,01:19:02
and that bridge is speech.01:19:04
- That bridge is speech, that's right.01:19:07
That's right. When you're writing something out,01:19:09
you're speaking it to yourself.01:19:11
And if you're speaking
faster than you can type,01:19:13
you've got a problem.01:19:15
- Interesting.01:19:16
I do a number of podcast episodes
that are not with guests,01:19:19
but solo episodes.01:19:20
And as listeners know,01:19:21
these are very long episodes,
often two or more hours.01:19:24
And we joke around the podcast studio01:19:27
that I will get locked
into a mode of speech01:19:30
where some of it is more
collaborative and anecdotal01:19:34
and then I'll punch out
simple declarative sentences.01:19:38
I find it very hard to switch
from one module to the next.01:19:42
The thing that I have done01:19:43
in order to make that
transition more fluid01:19:47
and prep for those podcast episodes01:19:49
is actually to read the lyrics of songs01:19:53
and to sing them in my head01:19:55
as a way of warming up my vocal chords.01:19:57
But luckily for those
around me, when I do that,01:20:01
I'm not actually singing out loud.01:20:03
And so this, what you're telling me01:20:06
supports this idea that even
when we are imagining singing01:20:12
or writing in our mind,01:20:14
we are exercising our vocal chords.01:20:16
- You're actually getting
little low potentials01:20:19
of electrical currents
reaching your muscles there,01:20:22
which also means you're exercising01:20:24
your speech brain circuits too,
without actually, you know,01:20:27
going with the full-blown
activity in the muscles.01:20:29
- Incredible.
- Yeah.01:20:30
And this idea of singing
helps you as well.01:20:36
Even with Parkinson's
patients and so forth,01:20:38
when they want to say something,01:20:39
singing or listening to
music helps them move better.01:20:41
And the idea there is that the
brain circuits for singing,01:20:45
or let's say the function of
the brain circuits for speech01:20:47
being used for singing first
is the more ancestral trait.01:20:51
And that's why it's easier
to do things with singing01:20:54
sometimes than it is with speaking.01:20:56
- I love it.01:20:58
Stutter is a particularly interesting case01:21:02
and one that every once in a while,01:21:04
I'll get questions about
this from our audience.01:21:08
Stutter is complicated
in a number of ways,01:21:11
but culturally, and my
understanding from these emails01:21:14
that I receive is that01:21:15
stutter can often cause
people to hide and speak less01:21:20
because it can be embarrassing.01:21:21
And we are often not patient with stutter.01:21:25
We also have the assumption
that if somebody's stuttering,01:21:27
that they're thinking is slow,01:21:28
but it turns out there are many examples,01:21:30
historically of people
who could not speak well,01:21:33
but who were brilliant thinkers.01:21:36
I don't know how well they could write,01:21:37
but they found other
modes of communication.01:21:41
I realize that you're not a
speech pathologist or therapist,01:21:45
but what is the current neurobiological01:21:48
understanding of stutter01:21:49
and, or what's being developed01:21:51
in terms of treatments for stutter?01:21:53
- Yeah, so we actually accidentally01:21:57
came across stuttering in songbirds.01:22:00
And we've published several papers on this01:22:03
to try to figure out the
neurobiological basis.01:22:04
The first study we had was a brain area01:22:08
called the basal ganglio,01:22:09
or the striatum part of the basal ganglia01:22:12
involved in coordinating movements,01:22:14
learning how to make movements,01:22:16
when it was damaged in a
speech-like pathway in these birds,01:22:22
what we found is that
they started to stutter01:22:25
as the brain region recovered.01:22:28
And unlike humans,01:22:30
they actually recovered
after three or four months.01:22:33
And why is that the case?01:22:34
Because bird brains
undergoes new neurogenesis01:22:38
in a way that human or
mammal brains don't.01:22:41
And it was the new neurons
that were coming in01:22:45
into the circuit, but not quite, you know,01:22:47
with the right proper activity01:22:50
was resulting in this
stuttering, in these birds.01:22:54
And after it was repaired,01:22:55
not exactly the old song
came back after the repair,01:22:59
but still it recovered a lot better.01:23:02
And it's now known,01:23:04
they call this neurogenic
stuttering in humans,01:23:09
damage to the basal ganglia01:23:10
or some type of disruption01:23:12
to the basal ganglia at a young age,01:23:14
also causes stuttering in humans.01:23:16
And even those who are
born with stuttering,01:23:21
it's often the basal
ganglia that's disrupted01:23:24
than some other brain circuit01:23:26
and we think the speech
part of the basal ganglia.01:23:29
- Can adults who maintain
a stutter from childhood01:23:33
repair that stutter?01:23:34
- They can repair it with therapy,01:23:36
with learning how to speak slower,01:23:39
learning how to tap out a rhythm.01:23:42
And yeah, I'm not a speech pathologist,01:23:43
but I started reading this literature01:23:45
and talking to others, that you know,01:23:48
colleagues who actually study stuttering.01:23:50
So yes, there are ways to
overcome the stuttering01:23:54
through, you know, behavioral therapy.01:23:59
And I think all of the tools out there01:24:04
have something to do with
sensory motor integration,01:24:07
controlling what you
hear with what you output01:24:11
in a thoughtful controlled way
helps reduce the stuttering.01:24:15
- There are a couple
examples from real life01:24:17
that I want to touch on,01:24:18
and one is somewhat facetious,01:24:21
but now I realize, is a
serious neurobiological issue,01:24:26
serious meaning I think interesting.01:24:28
Which is that every once in a while,01:24:31
I will have a conversation with somebody01:24:33
who says the last word of
the sentence along with me.01:24:37
And it seems annoying in some instances,01:24:40
but I'm guessing this
is just a breakthrough01:24:42
of the motor pattern01:24:43
that they're hearing what
I'm saying very well.01:24:46
So I'm going to interpret this kindly01:24:47
and think they're hearing what I'm saying.01:24:50
They're literally hearing it in their mind01:24:53
and they're getting that
low-level electrical activity01:24:56
to their throat.01:24:57
And they're just joining me01:25:00
in the enunciation of what I'm saying,01:25:02
probably without realizing it.01:25:04
Can we assume that that might be the case?01:25:06
- Well, I wouldn't be
surprised so that, you know,01:25:08
the motor theory of speech perception01:25:10
where this idea originally came,01:25:12
what you hear is going
through your speech circuit01:25:15
and then also activating
those muscles slightly.01:25:19
So yes, so one might argue,01:25:23
okay, is that speech
circuit now interpreting01:25:26
what that person is speaking?01:25:27
Now, you're listening to me01:25:29
and is going to finish it off01:25:30
because it's already
going through their brain01:25:33
and they can predict it?01:25:34
That would be one theory.01:25:36
And I don't think the
verdict out there is known,01:25:38
but that's one.01:25:39
The other is synchronizing
turn-taking in the conversation01:25:47
where you're acknowledging
that we understand each other01:25:52
by finishing off what I say.01:25:55
And it's almost like a
social bonding kind of thing.01:25:58
The other could be,01:25:59
I want the person to shut up01:26:00
so I can speak as well and take that turn.01:26:03
And each pair of people have a
rhythm to their conversation.01:26:08
And if you have somebody
who's over talkative01:26:10
versus under talkative of vice versa,01:26:12
that rhythm can be lost
in them finishing ideas01:26:15
and going back and forth.01:26:16
But I think having something
to do with turn-taking,01:26:20
as well, makes a lot of sense.01:26:22
- I have a colleague at Stanford who says01:26:24
that interruption is a sign of interest.01:26:27
[Erich laughs]01:26:28
I'm not sure that everyone agrees.01:26:29
I think it's highly contextual.01:26:30
- [Erich] Yes.01:26:31
- But there is this form of a verbal nod01:26:34
of saying, hmm hmm or things of that sort.01:26:36
And they're many of these.01:26:38
And I'm often told by
my audience, you know,01:26:40
that I interrupt my guests
and things of that sort.01:26:43
Oftentimes, I'll just get
caught in the natural flow01:26:45
of the conversation, but.
- Right.01:26:46
Well, I think we've had
pretty good turn-taking here,01:26:49
I hope.01:26:50
- So far so good.
- I feel that way.01:26:51
- I'm glad you feel that way,01:26:53
because especially in the
context of a discussion01:26:54
about language.
- Yes.01:26:56
- It seems important.01:26:59
Texting is a very, very
interesting evolution of language01:27:05
because what you've told us
is that we have a thought,01:27:09
it's translated into language.01:27:11
It might not be complete sentences,01:27:13
but texting, I have to
imagine this is the first time01:27:15
in human evolution where
we've written with our thumbs.01:27:18
So I don't know,01:27:20
it seems more primitive to
me than typing with fingers01:27:22
or writing with hands, but hey,01:27:23
who am I to judge the
evolution of our species01:27:25
in one direction or the other?01:27:27
But the shorthand grammatically,01:27:31
often grammatically deficient
incomplete sentence form01:27:34
of texting is an incredible thing to see.01:27:38
Early in relationships,
romantic relationships,01:27:41
people will often evaluate the others text01:27:44
and their ability to use proper grammar01:27:47
and spelling, et cetera.01:27:48
This often quickly degrades.01:27:50
And there's an acceptance01:27:51
that we're just trying to
communicate through shorthand,01:27:54
almost military like shorthand,01:27:57
but with internally
consistent between people,01:28:00
but there's no general
consensus of what things mean,01:28:02
but, you know, WTFs and like,01:28:05
and OMGs and all sorts of things.01:28:07
- [Erich] Right.01:28:09
- I wonder sometimes whether or not01:28:11
we are getting less proficient at speech01:28:14
because we are not
required to write and think01:28:19
in complete sentences.
- Hmm hmm.01:28:21
- I'm not being judgemental here.01:28:22
I see this in my colleagues.01:28:24
I see this in myself.01:28:25
This is not a judgment of
the younger generation.01:28:29
I also know that slang
has existed for decades,01:28:34
if not hundreds of years.01:28:36
But I also know that I
don't speak the same way01:28:38
that I did when I was a teenager,01:28:40
because I've suppressed
a lot of that slang,01:28:42
not because it's
inappropriate or offensive,01:28:45
although some of it was, frankly,01:28:48
but because it's out of context.01:28:50
So what do you think's
happening to language?01:28:53
Are we getting better at
speaking, worse at speaking?01:28:56
And what do you think the role of things01:28:58
like texting and tweeting01:28:59
and shorthand communication, hashtagging,01:29:02
what's that doing to the
way that our brains work?01:29:05
- Yeah, I think that,01:29:08
well, one, in terms of, you know,01:29:11
measuring your level of
sophistication and intelligence01:29:14
when you say OMG, right.01:29:16
I think that also could
be a cultural thing01:29:19
that, ah, you belong
to the next generation.01:29:21
If you're an, you know,01:29:22
or you're being cool,01:29:23
if you're an older person, you know,01:29:25
using OMG and other
things that the, you know,01:29:29
younger generation would use.01:29:31
But if I really think about it clearly,01:29:36
texting actually has allowed01:29:39
for more rapid communication
amongst people.01:29:44
I think, without the invention
of the phone before then,01:29:47
or, you know, texting back and forth,01:29:50
you had to wait days
for a letter to show up.01:29:53
You couldn't call somebody on the phone01:29:54
and talk as well, you know?01:29:55
And so this rapid communication01:29:57
in terms of the rapid communication
of writing in this case.01:30:01
So I think actually,01:30:04
it's more like a use it or lose it01:30:06
kind of a thing with the brain.01:30:10
The more you use a particular
brain region or circuit,01:30:13
the more enhanced.01:30:14
It's like a muscle.01:30:16
The more you exercise it,
the more healthier it is,01:30:19
the bigger it becomes and
the more space it takes01:30:21
and the more you lose something else.01:30:23
So I think texting is not decreasing01:30:30
the speech prowess,01:30:32
or the intellectual prowess of speech.01:30:34
It's converting it and using
it a lot in a different way,01:30:38
in a way that may not be
as rich in regular writing,01:30:43
because you can only
communicate so much nuance01:30:47
in short-term writing,01:30:49
but whatever is being done,01:30:53
you got people texting hours and hours01:30:55
and hours on the phone.01:30:56
So whatever, your thumb circuit
is going to get pretty big,01:31:00
actually. [laughs]01:31:02
- I do wonder whether, you know,01:31:04
many people have lost
their jobs based on tweets.01:31:07
- [Erich] Hmm hmm.01:31:08
- The short latency
between thought and action01:31:11
and distribution of one's thoughts01:31:13
is incredible.
- Yes.01:31:15
- And I'm not just talking about people01:31:20
who apparently would have poor
prefrontal top-down control.01:31:23
This is geek speak by the way,01:31:25
for people that lack impulse control.01:31:27
But high-level academics,01:31:28
I'm not going to point fingers at anyone.01:31:30
But examples of where you
see these tweets and you go,01:31:33
what were they thinking?
- Yep.01:31:35
- So presumably, there's
an optimal strategy01:31:39
between the thought speech motor pathway,01:31:44
especially when the motor
pathway engages communication01:31:47
with hundreds of thousands of people01:31:49
and retweets in particular01:31:50
and the cut and paste function01:31:51
and the screenshot function01:31:53
are often the reason
why speech propagates.01:31:55
- [Erich] Yep.01:31:56
- So to me, it's a little eerie that,01:32:00
just that the neural circuitry can do this01:32:04
and that we are catching
up a little bit more slowly01:32:08
to the technology,01:32:10
and you've got these
casualties of that mismatch.01:32:13
- I think that's a good
adjective used, the casualties,01:32:19
you know, of what's going on,01:32:20
because yes, it is the case with texting,01:32:23
what you're really losing there01:32:25
is less so the ability to write,01:32:28
but more the ability to
interpret what is being written.01:32:32
And you can over or under interpret01:32:33
something that somebody means.01:32:37
On the flip side of that, you know,01:32:40
if somebody's writing
something very quick,01:32:43
they could be writing instinctually,01:32:46
more instinctually, their true meaning,01:32:49
and they don't have time to modify01:32:51
and color code what they're trying to say.01:32:55
And that's what they really feel01:32:57
and as opposed to saying
it in a more nuanced way.01:33:00
So I think both sides of
that casualty are present.01:33:05
And that's a downturn, you know,01:33:07
unintended negative
consequence of short-term,01:33:12
I mean, short-word communications.01:33:14
- Yeah, I agree that this whole phenomenon01:33:17
could be netting people that normally01:33:20
would only say these things out loud01:33:22
once inside the door of their own home.01:33:24
- Right.
- Or not at all.01:33:25
- [Erich] Right.01:33:26
- It's an interesting time that we're in.01:33:28
These are these speech and
language and motor patterns.01:33:31
- So part of the human
evolution for language,01:33:32
I think this is all part of our evolution.01:33:35
- That's right.
- Yeah.01:33:36
- So for those of you
thinking terrible thoughts,01:33:38
please put them in the
world and be a casualty.01:33:40
And for those of you that are not,01:33:41
please be very careful with how proficient01:33:44
your thought to language
to motor action goes.01:33:47
- [Erich] Yes. [laughs] - Maybe the technology companies01:33:49
should install some buffers,
some AI-based buffers.01:33:52
- Right, that's taking some EEG signals01:33:54
from your brain while
you're texting to say,01:33:56
okay, this is not a
great thought, slow down.01:34:00
- Right, or this doesn't
reflect your best state.01:34:04
That brings me to01:34:06
what was going to be the
next question anyway,01:34:08
which is we are quickly
moving toward a time01:34:10
where there will be an
even faster transition01:34:15
from thought to speech, to motor output,01:34:18
and maybe won't require motor output.01:34:20
What I'm referring to here01:34:21
is some of the incredible
work of our colleagues,01:34:24
Eddie Chang at UCSF and others01:34:26
who are taking paralyzed human beings01:34:29
and learning to translate
the electrical signals01:34:32
of neurons in various areas,01:34:33
including speech and language areas,01:34:35
to computer screens that type out01:34:37
what these people are thinking.01:34:38
In other words,01:34:39
paralyzed people can put
their thoughts into writing.01:34:42
That's a pretty extreme
and wonderful example01:34:45
of recovery of function.
- Hmm hmm.01:34:47
- That is sure to continue to evolve.01:34:50
But I think we are headed toward a time,01:34:52
not too long from now01:34:54
where my thoughts can be
translated into words on a page01:34:58
if I allow that to happen.01:35:00
- Yeah so, and Eddie Chang's work,01:35:03
which I admire quite a
bit and cite in my papers,01:35:07
I think he's really one of
those at the leading edge01:35:10
of trying to understand within humans,01:35:13
the neurobiology of speech.01:35:15
And he may not say it
directly, but you know,01:35:17
I talked to him about this.01:35:18
It supports this idea
that the speech circuit01:35:21
and the separate language module,01:35:23
I don't really think that
there's a separation there.01:35:26
So with that knowledge,01:35:28
yes, and putting
electrodes into human brain01:35:31
and then translating
those electrical signals01:35:33
to speech currents.01:35:34
Yeah, we can start to tell
what is that person thinking?01:35:38
Why, because we often
think in terms of speech.01:35:42
And without saying words.01:35:44
And that's a scary thought.01:35:46
And now imagine if you can now translate01:35:49
those into a signal that
transmits something wirelessly01:35:52
and someone from some
distant part of the planet01:35:55
is hearing your speech
from a wireless signal01:35:58
without you speaking.01:36:00
So probably that won't be
done in an ethical way,01:36:04
who knows, you know?01:36:06
But I mean, the ethics
of doing that probably,01:36:08
you know, might not happen, but who knows?01:36:11
We have these songbirds, you know.01:36:13
If we apply the same technique to them,01:36:15
we can start to hear what they're singing01:36:16
in their dreams or whatever,01:36:18
even though they don't produce sound01:36:19
so we can find out by testing on them.01:36:22
- It's coming.
- Yes.01:36:23
- One way or another, it's coming.01:36:26
For those listening who are interested01:36:28
in getting better at speaking
and understanding languages,01:36:32
are there any tools that you recommend?01:36:34
And here again,01:36:36
I realize you're not a speech therapist,01:36:37
but here I'm not thinking about01:36:39
ameliorating any kind
of speech deficiency.01:36:42
I'm thinking, for instance,01:36:44
do you recommend that people read01:36:46
different types of writing?01:36:49
Would you recommend that
people learn how to dance01:36:51
in order to become better at
expressing themselves verbally?01:36:55
You know, and feel free to
have some degrees of freedom01:37:00
in this answer.01:37:01
These are obviously not
peer-reviewed studies01:37:04
that we're referring to,
although there may be,01:37:07
but I'm struck by the number of things01:37:10
that you do exceedingly well,01:37:11
and I can't help but ask,01:37:13
well, the singing, which I realize it may,01:37:17
your brother didn't pay me to say this,01:37:18
may not be quite as good
as your brothers yet,01:37:21
but is getting, you'll surpass him,01:37:23
I'm guessing at some point.01:37:24
♪ Getting there ♪01:37:25
- Getting there.01:37:26
[both laughing] Exactly, there you go.01:37:29
You know, should kids learn how to dance01:37:32
and read hard books and simple books?01:37:35
What do you recommend?01:37:36
Should adults learn how to do that?01:37:38
Everyone wants to know how to keep their brain working
better, so to speak.01:37:41
But also I think people want
to be able to speak well01:37:44
and people want to be
able to understand well.01:37:46
- Yeah, so what I've
discovered personally, right,01:37:50
is that, so when I switched01:37:52
from pursuing a career in
science from a career in dance,01:37:59
I thought one day I would stop dancing,01:38:02
but I haven't because I
find it fulfilling for me,01:38:06
you know, just as a life experience.01:38:09
So ever since I started college,01:38:11
you know, my late teens
and early twenties,01:38:15
I kept dancing even till this day.01:38:18
And there've been periods of time,01:38:19
like during the pandemic01:38:21
where I slowed down on
dancing and so forth.01:38:24
And when you do that, you realize, okay,01:38:26
there are parts of your body01:38:27
where your muscle tone decreases
a little bit and somewhat,01:38:30
or you could start to gain weight.01:38:32
I somehow don't gain weight that easily.01:38:34
And I think it's related to my dance,01:38:35
if that's meaningful to your audience.01:38:38
But what I found is, you know,01:38:42
in science, we like to
think of a separation01:38:44
between movement and action and cognition.01:38:48
And there is a separation for you01:38:49
between perception and production,01:38:51
cognition being perception,01:38:53
production being moving, right.01:38:55
But if the speech pathways01:38:57
is next to the movement pathways,01:38:59
what I discover is by dancing,01:39:02
it is helping me think.01:39:04
It is helping keeping my brain fresh.01:39:07
It's not just moving my muscles,01:39:09
I'm moving or using the
circuitry in my brain01:39:13
to control a whole big body.01:39:16
You need a lot of brain tissue to do that.01:39:18
And so I argue,01:39:19
if you want to stay cognitively
intact into your old age,01:39:25
you better be moving01:39:26
and you better be doing it consistently,01:39:28
whether it's dancing, walking, running,01:39:31
and also practicing speech,01:39:34
oratory speech and so forth or singing,01:39:36
is controlling the brain circuits01:39:38
that are moving your facial musculature.01:39:40
And it's going to keep your
cognitive circuits also in tune.01:39:44
And I'm convinced of that from
my own personal experience.01:39:47
- Yeah, for me, long, slow runs01:39:50
are a wonderful way to
kind of loosen the joints01:39:54
for long podcasts,
especially the solo podcast,01:39:58
which can take many hours to record.01:40:00
And without those long slow runs,01:40:03
at least the day before,
or even the morning of,01:40:05
I don't think I could do
it, at least not as well.01:40:08
- All right, well, you're
experiencing something similar.01:40:10
So that's an N of two.01:40:11
- Yeah, N of two.01:40:13
I'm tempted to learn how to dance01:40:15
because there are a lot of
reasons to learn how to dance.01:40:18
- [Erich] Yes.01:40:19
- And people can use their imagination.01:40:21
I definitely want to get the opportunity01:40:23
to talk about some of the newer work01:40:25
that you're into right now
about genomes of animals.01:40:30
As you perhaps can tell01:40:32
from my quite authentic
facial expressions,01:40:35
I adore the animal kingdom.01:40:37
I just find it amazing.01:40:39
And it's the reason I went
into neurobiology, in part.01:40:42
So many animals, so many
different patterns of movement,01:40:45
so many body plans, so
many specializations,01:40:49
what is the value of learning the genomes01:40:51
of all these animals?01:40:53
You know, I can think of
conservation-based, you know,01:40:58
schemes of trying to preserve
these precious critters,01:41:02
but what are you doing with
the genomes of these animals?01:41:04
What do you want to understand
about their brain circuits?01:41:06
And how does this relate
to some of the discussion01:41:08
we've have been having up until now?01:41:09
- Yeah, I've gotten very
heavily involved in genomes,01:41:14
you know, not just to
get at an individual gene01:41:16
involved in the trade of
interest, like spoken language,01:41:21
but I realize that, you know,01:41:24
nature has done natural experiments for us01:41:28
with all these species out
there with these various traits01:41:31
and the one that I'm
studying, like vocal learning,01:41:33
has evolved multiple times
among the animal kingdom,01:41:36
even if it's rare, it's multiple times.01:41:39
And the similar genetic changes
occurred in those species.01:41:45
But to find out what those genetic changes01:41:48
that are associated with
the trait of interests01:41:50
and not some other trait
like flying in birds,01:41:53
as opposed to singing,01:41:56
you have to do what's
called comparative genomics,01:41:58
even in the context of studying the brain.01:42:01
And you need their genomes
to compare the genomes01:42:04
and do like a GWA, a
genome-wide association study,01:42:07
not just within a species like
humans, but across species.01:42:10
And so you need good genomes to do that.01:42:13
Plus, I've discovered I'm also interested01:42:16
in evolution and origins.01:42:17
How did these species
come about a similar trait01:42:22
in last, you know, 300 million
years or 60 million years,01:42:25
depending who you're talking about.01:42:27
And you need a good
phylogenetic tree to do that,01:42:30
and to get a good phylogenetic tree,01:42:32
you also need their genomes.01:42:34
And so, because of this,01:42:35
I got involved in large scale consortiums01:42:38
to produce genomes of
many different species,01:42:41
including my vocal learners01:42:43
and their closest
relatives that I'm fans of.01:42:47
But I couldn't convince
the funding agencies01:42:49
to gimme the money to do
that just for my own project.01:42:52
But when you get a whole
bunch of people together01:42:55
who want to study various traits,01:42:57
you know, heart disease,01:42:59
or loss and gain in flight and so forth,01:43:03
suddenly we all need lots
of genomes to do this.01:43:06
And so now that got me into a project01:43:09
to lead something called the
Vertebrate Genomes Project01:43:12
to eventually sequence all
70,000 species on the planet.01:43:16
And Earth BioGenome Project,01:43:18
all eukaryotic species,
all two million of them.01:43:23
And to no longer be in a situation01:43:26
where I wish I had this genome.01:43:28
Now we have the genetic code
of all life on the planet,01:43:32
create a database of all their traits01:43:34
and find the genetic association01:43:36
with everything out there01:43:38
that makes a difference
from one species to another.01:43:42
One more piece of the
equation to add to this story01:43:47
is what I didn't realize
as a neuroscientist01:43:50
were that these genomes
are not only incomplete,01:43:55
but have lots of errors in them,01:43:58
false gene duplications,01:44:00
where mother and father chromosomes01:44:01
were so different from each other,01:44:03
that the genome algorithm,01:44:05
assembly algorithms treated
them as two different genes01:44:08
in this part of the chromosome.01:44:10
So there are a lot of these
false duplicated genes01:44:12
that people thought
were real, but were not01:44:16
or missing parts of the genome01:44:18
because the enzymes
used to sequence the DNA01:44:21
couldn't get through
this regulatory region01:44:23
that folded up on itself01:44:26
and made it hard to sequence.01:44:28
And so I ended up in these consortiums01:44:32
pulling in the genome
sequencing companies,01:44:35
developing the technology to work with us01:44:38
to improve it further01:44:40
and the computer science guys01:44:42
who then take that data
and that technology,01:44:44
and try to make the complete genomes01:44:46
and make the algorithms better01:44:48
to produce what we now just did recently01:44:51
led by an effort by Adam Phillippy01:44:53
is the first human
Telomere-to-Telomere Genome01:44:56
with no errors, all complete,
no missing sequence.01:45:00
And now we're trying to do the
same thing with vertebrates01:45:04
and other species. Actually, we improved
that before we got to the,01:45:07
what we call telomere-to-telomere,01:45:09
from one end of the chromosome to another.01:45:11
And what we're discovering01:45:13
is in this dark matter of the genome01:45:15
that was missing before,01:45:17
turns out to be some regulatory regions01:45:20
that are specialized in
vocal learning species01:45:23
and we think are involved in
developing speech circuits.01:45:26
- Incredible.01:45:27
Well, so much to learn.01:45:29
And we're going to learn
from this information.01:45:32
Early on in these genome
projects and connectome projects,01:45:35
I confess I was a little bit cynical.01:45:37
This would be about 10, 15 years ago.01:45:39
I thought, okay, necessary,01:45:40
but not sufficient for anything.01:45:42
We need it, but it's not
clear what's going to happen,01:45:44
but you just gave a very clear example01:45:46
of what we stand to learn
from this kind of information.01:45:49
And I know from the conservation side,01:45:52
there's a huge interest in this01:45:53
because even though we would prefer01:45:55
to keep all these species
alive rather than clone them,01:45:58
these sorts of projects
do offer the possibility01:46:01
of potentially recreating
species that were lost.01:46:04
- [Erich] Right.01:46:05
- Due to our own ignorance or
missteps, or what have you.01:46:09
- Yes, and along those lines,01:46:13
because, you know, we
got involved in genomics,01:46:16
some of the first species
that we start working on01:46:19
are critically endangered species.01:46:21
And I'm doing that not only for, you know,01:46:25
perspectives to understand their brains01:46:27
and the genes involved
in their brain function,01:46:29
but I feel like it's a moral duty.01:46:31
So the fact that now
I become more involved01:46:34
in genome biology01:46:36
and have helped develop these tools01:46:37
for more complete genomes,01:46:39
let's capture their genetic
code now, before they're gone.01:46:43
And could we use that information01:46:46
to resurrect the species
at some future time,01:46:49
if not in my lifetime,01:46:50
in some time in the future
and generations ahead of us.01:46:54
And so, in anticipation of that,01:46:59
we create a database,
we call the GenomeArk01:47:03
and no pun intended like Noah's Ark,01:47:05
meant to store the genetic code01:47:08
as complete genome assemblies as possible01:47:10
for all species on the planet01:47:13
to be used for basic science,01:47:14
but also some point in the future.01:47:17
And because of that,01:47:19
funding agencies or private foundations01:47:21
that are interested in conservation01:47:23
have been reaching out to
me now, a neuroscientist,01:47:26
to help them out in producing
high quality genome data01:47:30
of endangered species that they can use,01:47:32
like Revive & Restore,01:47:34
who want to resurrect the passenger pigeon01:47:36
or Colossal, who wants to
resurrect the wooly mammoth.01:47:39
And so we're producing
high quality genomes01:47:41
for these groups, for the
conservation projects.01:47:44
- What a terrific and
important initiative.01:47:47
And I think for those listening today,01:47:49
they now certainly understand the value01:47:53
of deeply understanding
the brain structures01:47:56
and genomes of different species.01:47:58
Because I confess,01:48:00
even though I knew a bit
of the songbird literature,01:48:02
and I certainly understand01:48:03
that humans have speech and language,01:48:05
I had no idea that there
was so much convergence01:48:08
of function, structure and genomes.01:48:10
And to me, you know,
I feel a lot more like01:48:13
an ape than I do a songbird.
- Right.01:48:16
- And yet here we are
with the understanding01:48:18
that there's a lot more similarity01:48:20
between songbirds and humans01:48:22
than I certainly ever thought before.01:48:24
- Yeah, something very
close to home for us humans,01:48:27
I can give you an example of
is evolution of skin color.01:48:32
And skin color, we use it unfortunately,01:48:35
for racism and so forth.01:48:37
We use it also for good
things to let in more light01:48:39
or let out less light depending
on the part of the planet,01:48:42
you know, our population evolved in.01:48:45
And most people think dark-skinned people01:48:47
all evolved from the
same dark-skinned person01:48:49
and light-skinned people all evolved01:48:51
from the same light-skinned person,01:48:52
but that's not the case.01:48:54
Dark skin and light skin amongst humans01:48:57
has evolved independently multiple times,01:49:00
like in, you know, the
Pacific islands versus Africa.01:49:03
And it's just depending on the angle01:49:06
of light hitting the Earth01:49:08
as to whether you need more
protection from the sun01:49:10
or less protection,01:49:12
that's also associated with
Vitamin D synthesis in the skin.01:49:16
And so, and each time,01:49:22
where darker or lighter
skin evolved independently,01:49:26
it hit the same gene, you know,01:49:28
the mela [finger snaps].01:49:30
- Melanin.
- Melanin receptors.01:49:32
That's right, yes, yeah.01:49:33
Genes that are involved
in melanin in formation.01:49:37
And so those genes evolve
some of the same mutations,01:49:41
even in different species.01:49:42
It's not just humans.01:49:44
In equatorial regions, they
are darker-skinned animals01:49:48
than going away from the equator.01:49:50
- Oh, right, I think of Arctic foxes01:49:52
and things of that sort.
- Yep, that's right.01:49:53
That's right, polar bears, you know,01:49:56
and so some of the same genes are used01:50:00
in evolutionary perspective
to evolve in a similar way01:50:03
within and across species.01:50:05
- Incredible.
- Yeah.01:50:06
And that's same thing
happening in the brain too.01:50:08
Language is no exception.01:50:09
- Well, I have to say,01:50:10
as somebody who is a, you
know, career neuroscientist,01:50:14
but as I mentioned several times now,01:50:15
who also adores the animal kingdom,01:50:18
but is also obsessed
with speech and language,01:50:23
at a distance not as a
practitioner of music and dance,01:50:28
this has been an incredible conversation01:50:31
and opportunity for me to learn.01:50:32
And I know I speak for a
tremendous number of people01:50:35
and I just really want to say,01:50:36
thank you for joining us today.01:50:38
You are incredibly busy.01:50:39
It's clear from your
description of your science01:50:42
and your knowledge base,01:50:43
that you are involved in
a huge number of things,01:50:46
very busy, so thank
you for taking the time01:50:48
to speak to all of us.01:50:50
Thank you for the work that you're doing,01:50:52
both on speech and language,01:50:53
but also this important work on genomes01:50:55
and conservation of endangered
species and far more.01:51:00
And I have to say,01:51:02
if you would agree to come back01:51:03
and speak to us again sometime,01:51:04
I'm certain that if we were
to sit down even six months01:51:07
or a year from now, there's
going to be a lot more to come.01:51:08
- Yeah, we have some things cooking01:51:10
and thank you for inviting me here01:51:13
to get the word out to the community01:51:16
of what's going on in the science world.01:51:18
- Well, we're honored and
very grateful to you, Erich.01:51:20
Thank you.01:51:21
- You're welcome.01:51:22
- Thank you for joining
me today for my discussion01:51:24
with Dr. Erich Jarvis.01:51:25
If you'd like to learn more
about his laboratory's work,01:51:28
you can go to Jarvis Lab,
spelled J-A-R-V-I-S lab,01:51:32
all one word, jarvislab.net.01:51:35
And there you can learn
about all the various studies01:51:37
taking place in his laboratory,01:51:38
as well as some of the
larger overarching themes01:51:41
that are driving those studies,01:51:42
including studies on human
genomics and animal genomics01:51:45
that surely are going to lead01:51:47
to the next stage discoveries01:51:49
of how we learn and think about,01:51:52
and indeed use language.01:51:53
If you're learning from and
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[lively music]Description:
My guest this episode is Dr. Erich Jarvis, PhD—Professor and the Head of the Laboratory of Neurogenetics of Language at Rockefeller University and Investigator with the Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI). Dr. Jarvis' research spans the molecular and genetic mechanisms of vocal communication, comparative genomics of speech and language across species and the relationship between speech, language and movement. We discuss the unique ability of humans (and certain animal species) to learn and communicate using complex language, including verbal speech production and the ability to interpret both written and spoken language. We also discuss the connections between language, singing and dance and why song may have evolved before language. Dr. Jarvis also explains some of the underlying biological and genetic components of stutter/speech disorders, non-verbal communication, why it's easiest to learn a language as a child and how individuals can learn multiple languages at any age. This episode ought to be of interest to everyone interested in the origins of human speech, language, music and culture and how newer technology, such as social media and texting, change our brains. Thank you to our sponsors AG1 (Athletic Greens): https://athleticgreens.com/huberman InsideTracker: https://info.insidetracker.com/huberman ROKA: https://roka.com/huberman LMNT: https://partners.drinklmnt.com/free-gift-with-purchase?rfsn=6327528.ecaabe8&rfsn_cn=EXCLUSIVE+GIFT+FOR+THE+HUBERMAN+LAB+COMMUNITY Supplements from Momentous https://www.livemomentous.com/huberman Social & Website Instagram: https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser Twitter: https://twitter.com/hubermanlab Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@hubermanlab LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-hu... Website: https://www.hubermanlab.com/ Newsletter: https://www.hubermanlab.com/newsletter Dr. Erich Jarvis Dr. Erick Jarvis' Lab: https://www.jarvislab.net/ Rockefeller University: https://www.rockefeller.edu/our-scientists/heads-of-laboratories/1159-erich-d-jarvis/ Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=cI-fi9MAAAAJ Twitter: https://twitter.com/erichjarvis Instagram: https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erich-jarvis-ba73624 Other Resources: Earth Biogenome Project: https://www.earthbiogenome.org/ GenomeArk: https://vgp.github.io/genomeark/ Timestamps 00:00:00 Dr. Erich Jarvis & Vocal Communication 00:03:43 Momentous Supplements 00:04:36 InsideTracker, ROKA, LMNT 00:08:01 Speech vs. Language, Is There a Difference? 00:10:55 Animal Communication, Hand Gestures & Language 00:15:25 Vocalization & Innate Language, Evolution of Modern Language 00:21:10 Humans & Songbirds, Critical Periods, Genetics, Speech Disorders 00:27:11 Innate Predisposition to Learn Language, Cultural Hybridization 00:31:34 Genes for Speech & Language 00:35:49 Learning New or Multiple Languages, Critical Periods, Phonemes 00:41:39 AG1 (Athletic Greens) 00:42:52 Semantic vs. Effective Communication, Emotion, Singing 00:47:32 Singing, Link Between Dancing & Vocal Learning 00:52:55 Motor Theory of Vocal Learning, Dance 00:55:03 Music & Dance, Emotional Bonding, Genetic Predispositions 01:04:11 Facial Expressions & Language, Innate Expressions 01:09:35 Reading & Writing 01:15:13 Writing by Hand vs. Typing, Thoughts & Writing 01:20:58 Stutter, Neurogenetics, Overcome Stutter, Conversations 01:26:58 Modern Language Evolution: Texting, Social Media & the Future 01:36:26 Movement: The Link to Cognitive Growth 01:40:21 Comparative Genomics, Earth Biogenome Project, Genome Ark, Conservation 01:48:24 Evolution of Skin & Fur Color 01:51:22 Dr. Erich Jarvis, Zero-Cost Support, YouTube Feedback, Spotify & Apple Reviews, Momentous Supplements, AG1 (Athletic Greens), Instagram, Twitter, Neural Network Newsletter, Huberman Lab Clips The Huberman Lab Podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical advice, and no doctor/patient relationship is formed. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from this podcast is at the user's own risk. The content of this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Users should not disregard or delay in obtaining medical advice for any medical condition they may have and should seek the assistance of their health care professionals for any such conditions. Title Card Photo Credit: Mike Blabac - https://www.blabacphoto.com/
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