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00:00:00
welcome to the huberman Lab podcast00:00:01
where we discuss science and00:00:03
science-based tools for everyday life00:00:09
I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a professor00:00:10
of neurobiology and Ophthalmology at00:00:13
Stanford school of medicine today we are00:00:15
discussing dopamine dopamine is a topic00:00:18
that I've covered before on this podcast00:00:19
and many people have heard of dopamine00:00:22
most people know that dopamine is00:00:24
involved in pleasure to some extent or00:00:26
another and nowadays people are starting00:00:28
to appreciate that dopamine is also00:00:30
intimately involved with motivation00:00:33
drive and pursuit00:00:35
well today you're going to learn that00:00:37
indeed dopamine is responsible for all00:00:39
of those things but you are also going00:00:41
to learn that dopamine is critical for00:00:43
overcoming procrastination for ensuring00:00:46
ongoing motivation and indeed for00:00:49
ensuring confidence in fact we are going00:00:51
to talk about the relationship between00:00:53
dopamine and motivation and confidence00:00:55
at the level of neurobiological00:00:57
circuitry and we are going to cover00:00:59
tools that will allow you to leverage00:01:00
your dopamine in order to have a maximum00:01:03
motivation to overcome sticking points00:01:05
which include things like00:01:06
procrastination but also by00:01:09
understanding the neural circuits in the00:01:11
brain and body that release and use00:01:13
dopamine but more importantly by00:01:15
understanding what are called dopamine00:01:16
dynamics that is what gives rise to Big00:01:19
peaks in dopamine or troughs in dopamine00:01:22
or what's referred to as our Baseline00:01:25
level of dopamine which turns out to be00:01:26
our Baseline levels of motivation and00:01:29
feelings of well-being by understanding00:01:31
how those things relate to one another I00:01:33
assure you that by the end of today's00:01:35
episode you will be in a far better00:01:37
position to understand why you become a00:01:40
motivated why you procrastinate how to00:01:42
ensure motivation on an ongoing basis00:01:45
and even how to leverage effort and the00:01:48
desire to become motivated as a way to00:01:50
do just that to become more motivated00:01:52
today's discussion is not about00:01:53
psychology although I will center around00:01:56
practical everyday examples and offer00:01:58
many many tools that you can Implement00:02:00
if you choose today's discussion is00:02:02
really about pulling apart these things00:02:04
that we call motivation reward pleasure00:02:06
procrastination and understanding them00:02:09
in terms of their dopamine Dynamics so00:02:11
whether you've heard me or others talk00:02:13
about dopamine before or whether or not00:02:15
today is your first exposure to the00:02:17
topic of dopamine today's episode is00:02:19
really designed to give you the00:02:20
biological and practical knowledge so00:02:22
that you can leverage your dopamine00:02:24
circuitry and your dopamine levels as00:02:25
well as tools to adjust dopamine00:02:27
circuitry and levels in order to00:02:29
optimize mental health physical health00:02:31
and performance before we begin I'd like00:02:34
to emphasize that this podcast is00:02:35
separate from my teaching and research00:02:37
roles at Stanford it is however part of00:02:39
my desire and effort to bring zero cost00:02:41
to Consumer information about science00:02:42
and science related tools to the general00:02:44
public in keeping with that theme I'd00:02:46
like to thank the sponsors of today's00:02:47
podcast our first sponsor is Helix sleep00:02:50
Helix sleep makes mattresses and pillows00:02:52
that are the absolute highest quality00:02:54
I've talked many times before on this00:02:56
and other podcasts about the critical00:02:58
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be awake and alert and have a good00:03:03
elevated mood throughout the day sleep00:03:05
is just fundamental to our mental health00:03:07
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there's no replacing great sleep a key00:03:11
thing we all need in order to get00:03:12
excellent sleep is to have an ideal00:03:14
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library of those supplements is00:06:23
constantly expanding again that's00:06:25
livmomentis.com huberman okay let's talk00:06:28
about dopamine what is dopamine dopamine00:06:31
is what's called a neuromodulator which00:06:33
simply refers to the fact that it's a00:06:35
chemical that modulates or changes the00:06:38
electrical activity of other cells and00:06:41
the cells I'm referring to are neurons00:06:43
neurons are just nerve cells so you have00:06:46
a brain and a spinal cord and the00:06:48
neurons in your brain and spinal cord00:06:49
connect to one another and they connect00:06:52
to different areas of the body including00:06:54
basically every organ of your body and00:06:56
every organ of your body communicates00:06:58
back to your brain and spinal cord00:07:00
through Direct act or indirect Pathways00:07:03
for instance you have neurons in your00:07:05
gut that sense what sorts of nutrients00:07:07
you've eaten or drank and then send00:07:10
neural signals electrical signals up to00:07:12
the brain and indeed that whole process00:07:14
happens to be modulated by dopamine00:07:17
dopamine as a neuromodulator has the00:07:19
basic property of either ramping up00:07:21
increasing or decreasing the activity of00:07:24
other neurons and that's done by00:07:25
adjusting things like electrical00:07:27
potentials and things of that sort that00:07:28
we really won't go into this episode but00:07:31
that I promise to get into in detail in00:07:33
a future episode if you're interested in00:07:34
the biochemistry and biophysics of00:07:36
neurons and things of that sort00:07:38
so we have this neuromodulator dopamine00:07:40
and we know that that neuromodulator can00:07:42
increase or decrease the activity of00:07:44
other neurons00:07:45
so then we have to ask ourselves where00:07:47
is dopamine released in the brain and00:07:49
body and what specific types of neurons00:07:52
is it impacting in other words what00:07:54
specific types of functions does00:07:55
dopamine have so there are basically00:07:57
five circuits within the brain that use00:08:00
dopamine as the primary neuromodulator00:08:02
and those five circuits engage different00:08:04
but related functions so I'm going to go00:08:07
through them one by one relatively00:08:09
quickly giving you a little bit of00:08:11
nomenclature and some sense of what each00:08:13
of those circuits looks like and what it00:08:16
does the first circuit is the so-called00:08:18
Nigro striatal pathway so in the back of00:08:20
the brain there's an area called00:08:21
substantia so named because the00:08:25
neurons that are actually very dark they00:08:27
actually contain pigment you'd be able00:08:28
to see this if I were to slice up a00:08:30
brain you'd see two dark regions in the00:08:31
back that substantia Niagara substantia00:08:33
Niagara contains neurons that are chock00:08:35
a block full of dopamine but they00:08:37
release that dopamine in a brain00:08:38
structure called the striatum the00:08:40
striatum is involved in movement both00:08:42
the initiation of movements and the00:08:44
suppression of movements in so-called go00:08:47
action and no go suppress action00:08:49
pathways topic for a future podcast the00:08:53
second brain circuit that uses and00:08:55
leverages dopamine to a great extent is00:08:57
the so-called mesolimbic pathway now00:08:59
you'll also in a moment hear about the00:09:00
mesocortical pathway so today I'm going00:09:03
to talk about these somewhat00:09:04
interchangeably at times but where it's00:09:07
important for me to differentiate00:09:08
between them I will do that both of00:09:10
these Pathways initiate from a set of00:09:12
neurons in the so-called ventral00:09:14
tegmental area or VTA I will use that00:09:17
acronym VTA the VTA functions in close00:09:21
partnership with a different brain00:09:22
structure called the nucleus accumbens00:09:24
or n a i don't think I'll call it n a00:09:26
today I'll talk about VTA ventral00:09:28
tegmental area and I'll talk about00:09:30
nucleus accumbens for sake of today's00:09:32
discussion you can lump those together00:09:33
if you want00:09:34
neurons in those areas project a bunch00:09:37
of different places but in the00:09:39
mesolimbic pathway those neurons are00:09:41
projecting to areas of the brain like00:09:42
the hypothalamus which sits right above00:09:44
the roof of your mouth and is00:09:45
responsible for a lot of basic functions00:09:48
things like maintaining your body00:09:49
temperature for libido in the pursuit of00:09:53
sex for Hunger for the generation of00:09:57
signals to the pituitary gland that00:09:59
cause the release of00:10:01
hormones and other things into the00:10:03
bloodstream so the connections which I00:10:05
sometimes refer to as projections from00:10:08
the neurons in the VTA and nucleus00:10:10
accumbens to the hypothalamus are00:10:12
basically using dopamine to modulate the00:10:14
output of a lot of different things that00:10:15
happen in this hypothalamus that00:10:18
controls a lot of we could call them00:10:20
primitive functions but they're really00:10:22
basic functions for survival now the00:10:24
other pathway out of the VTA and nucleus00:10:27
accumbens is to the cortex that's why00:10:29
it's called mesocortical pathway so this00:10:31
is a very different pathway out of the00:10:33
VTA and nucleus accumbens than the one I00:10:35
just described a moment ago the pathway00:10:37
I'm talking about now the mesocortical00:10:38
pathway projects to the prefrontal00:10:40
cortex which is a structure that many of00:10:42
you have perhaps heard of but even if00:10:44
you haven't it's important to know this00:10:45
is an area that resides right behind00:10:48
your forehead00:10:49
and that in humans compared to other00:10:51
species is greatly expanded in terms of00:10:54
its size and complexity of function so00:10:56
it's involved in everything from00:10:57
planning and executing of action to00:11:00
making good or bad decisions depending00:11:02
on context in fact one of the primary00:11:04
functions of prefrontal Cortex is to00:11:06
really understand context whether or not00:11:07
for instance you are alone in your room00:11:09
where certain behaviors are appropriate00:11:11
whether or not you are at work where00:11:13
other behaviors are appropriate00:11:15
understanding what the context is and00:11:18
therefore what sorts of actions need to00:11:21
be generated and suppressed in fact a00:11:24
guest on the huberman Lab podcast and00:11:25
this is a guess whose episode hasn't00:11:27
aired yet described this beautifully00:11:29
he's a neurosurgeon and he said the way00:11:31
to think about the prefrontal cortex is00:11:33
it's basically an area of the brain that00:11:35
says00:11:36
or no not now to other brain regions in00:11:40
order to suppress action we know this00:11:42
because people that have damage to the00:11:43
prefrontal cortex00:11:45
often can't suppress their impulses okay00:11:48
so the pathway from VTA and nucleus00:11:51
accumbens to the prefrontal cortex is00:11:53
absolutely critical for today's00:11:54
discussion because we are largely going00:11:56
to be discussing motivation Drive00:11:58
Pursuit procrastination and all sorts of00:12:01
things that have to do with our feelings00:12:03
about context whether or not we want to00:12:06
do something or not whether or not we00:12:07
feel we should or we shouldn't whether00:12:09
or not we feel we failed the last time00:12:10
or there's a high probability of success00:12:12
the next time prefrontal cortex does00:12:14
many many things but when thinking about00:12:16
dopamine's role in the prefrontal cortex00:12:18
that is when thinking about this00:12:20
mesocortical pathway we really want to00:12:22
think about how dopamine is activating00:12:25
or changing our propensity to do certain00:12:28
things and get us into action or prevent00:12:30
us from doing certain things and prevent00:12:32
action so basically you can think about00:12:34
the mesocortical pathway as a circuit00:12:36
that really governs all of the major00:12:38
choices that you're going to make in00:12:39
life about what to do and what not to do00:12:41
toward your goals and away from the00:12:43
things that you want to avoid now the00:12:45
fourth dopamine pathway in the brain is00:12:48
the so-called tubero infundibular00:12:50
pathway and this is not one we're going00:12:52
to focus on too much today this is a00:12:54
pathway that relates to connections00:12:55
between the brain and your pituitary00:12:57
gland your pituitary gland being that00:12:59
gland that's as I mentioned a moment ago00:13:01
is also receiving input from the00:13:02
hypothalamus and is releasing a bunch of00:13:05
hormones into your bloodstream things00:13:06
like luteinizing hormone follicle00:13:08
stimulating hormone things like00:13:10
melanocortin hormone these are hormones00:13:13
that are impacting everything from the00:13:14
function of the ovary and females to the00:13:16
function of the testes and males it's00:13:18
governing things like cortisol release00:13:20
under stress thyroid hormone meaning00:13:23
it's regulating thyroid hormone release00:13:25
and on and on dopamine has a very00:13:28
powerful impact on the output of the00:13:31
pituitary so again that's probably a00:13:33
topic for a future episode but it's00:13:34
important in reviewing the different00:13:36
brain circuits that use dopamine as a00:13:39
neuromodulator that I mentioned that one00:13:41
then there's a fifth one and this fifth00:13:43
one is not often discussed and again00:13:45
won't be the main topic of today's00:13:46
discussion but for thoroughness and for00:13:49
clarity it's important that we mention00:13:51
it this is the circuit within your00:13:53
retina that is the pie crust-like lining00:13:56
of neural tissue on the back of your eye00:13:58
because remember your eye is actually00:14:00
part of your brain that got extruded00:14:01
from your brain during development you00:14:03
know those two eyes that you see in the00:14:05
mirror and that you see in other people00:14:06
are actually two pieces of central00:14:09
nervous system and within the retina00:14:11
which is the neural portion of the eye00:14:14
within the neural retina00:14:16
dopamine is responsible for adapting to00:14:19
different light conditions so that you00:14:21
can see clearly both in the evening and00:14:23
when it gets darker you can still see a00:14:25
bit and in the morning when it's very00:14:26
bright you don't really have to make00:14:28
adjustments to your visual system in00:14:30
order to see clearly your visual system00:14:31
does it for you and one of the ways that00:14:33
it does that is through the00:14:35
neuromodulator dopamine so today we are00:14:38
not going to discuss the retinal00:14:39
dopamine Pathways or the00:14:40
tuberinfrendibular dopamine Pathways and00:14:43
we won't really talk so much about the00:14:44
Nigro striatal pathway I'll say one more00:14:46
thing about it and then I'll leave it00:14:47
alone we are going to talk about the00:14:50
mesocortical pathway and we might touch00:14:51
on the mesolimic pathway a little bit as00:14:53
well so today we're mostly going to talk00:14:55
about mesocortical circuitry and00:14:58
function and dopamine within the00:15:00
mesocortical circuit and the reason that00:15:02
we're doing that is that today's00:15:04
discussion is really about motivation00:15:05
procrastination goal setting and pursuit00:15:09
it's very important to understand that00:15:11
neither dopamine nor the mesocortical00:15:13
circuit cares about any specific goal or00:15:17
Pursuit this is a circuit that uses00:15:20
dopamine in order to pursue anything00:15:23
now of course some people have a greater00:15:25
propensity to pursue things like work or00:15:28
goals and Athletics or relationships or00:15:31
a combination of those other people00:15:33
unfortunately have a greater propensity00:15:34
to pursue things like drugs of abuse00:15:37
what are drugs of abuse drugs of abuse00:15:38
tend to be drugs that increase levels of00:15:41
dopamine to the extent that other types00:15:44
of Pursuits in life that are adaptive00:15:46
for us like work relationship School Etc00:15:48
become Irrelevant in fact the definition00:15:51
of addiction that I use and that I00:15:53
believe really matches the neurobiology00:15:56
very well is that addiction is a00:15:58
progressive narrowing of the things that00:16:00
bring us pleasure healthy functioning of00:16:02
the mesocortical pathway however allows00:16:05
us to toggle or switch back and forth00:16:07
between different types of Pursuits of00:16:10
all the sorts that I've mentioned00:16:11
earlier so if we can understand how that00:16:13
means the cortical pathway works just a00:16:15
little bit in particular when dopamine00:16:18
is released and when it's not released00:16:20
what dopamine does when it's released to00:16:22
our sense of motivation and drive00:16:25
and if we can understand a little bit00:16:27
about how our recent dopamine history00:16:29
that is whether or not there is dopamine00:16:32
in our system already00:16:34
dictates whether or not we are going to00:16:36
feel motivated in the next 5 10 1500:16:38
minutes hours days and weeks that is all00:16:41
very easy to understand I promise I'll00:16:43
explain it to you in a simple way but I00:16:45
want you to get a circuit into your mind00:16:47
I want you to Envision that there are00:16:48
these neurons little nerve cells in the00:16:50
VTA and nucleus accumbens those neurons00:16:52
make dopamine they send their00:16:54
projections that we call axons which are00:16:56
like little wires and they can release00:16:58
dopamine into the prefrontal cortex and00:17:01
now you already know because you learned00:17:03
it a few minutes ago that the prefrontal00:17:04
cortex then can ensure that certain00:17:06
behaviors take place and other behaviors00:17:09
do not take place that or quieting that00:17:12
we talked about earlier00:17:13
with that in mind let's now take a look00:17:16
at how dopamine is released and let's00:17:19
keep two things in mind there are peaks00:17:22
in dopamine that is dopamine is released00:17:24
into the frontal cortex where it has00:17:26
these effects of activating or00:17:27
suppressing action00:17:29
and we can think of those as peaks in00:17:31
dopamine so if I call it a spike that00:17:35
means an increase and then a decrease if00:17:37
I call it a peak it's an increase and00:17:39
then a decrease there can also be00:17:41
troughs in dopamine what do I mean by00:17:43
that well we have Peaks and dopamine and00:17:46
that Peak and dopamine can rise up and00:17:49
then go back to what we call baseline or00:17:52
there can be a trough it can go below00:17:55
Baseline so the two key things to00:17:57
understand about dopamine is that we00:17:59
have dopamine Peaks that are triggered00:18:01
by certain behaviors certain compounds00:18:04
drugs or substances food00:18:07
Etc and that we have a dopamine Baseline00:18:10
our dopamine Baseline is our reservoir00:18:13
of dopamine it's how full or empty our00:18:16
dopamine pool is and that dopamine pool00:18:19
is the pool of dopamine that we use in00:18:21
order to create those dopamine Peaks and00:18:24
when those Peaks come down sometimes00:18:25
they go back to Baseline and sometimes00:18:27
they go to lower the base slime which we00:18:30
call the trough00:18:31
if any of this seems confusing I want00:18:33
you just to imagine a wave pool this is00:18:36
an analogy that was given to me by one00:18:38
of our podcast guests which is Dr Kyle00:18:40
Gillette who's an obesity specialist and00:18:43
works on a number of things related to00:18:44
endocrine hormone function including00:18:46
testosterone estrogen in both men and00:18:48
women you want to check out his episodes00:18:49
on Hormone Health00:18:51
now they're fascinating and actionable00:18:53
he's a tremendous wealth of knowledge00:18:55
and he has this analogy for how dopamine00:18:57
Works in our brain and body and that00:19:00
analogy is this notion of a wave pool if00:19:02
you've ever seen a wave pool it's00:19:03
basically a concrete pool and there are00:19:07
waves within it okay duh those waves can00:19:10
be of different heights so they can be00:19:13
little Ripples and we can think of those00:19:14
as little mini Peaks or they can be big00:19:17
waves they can be really big crashing00:19:19
waves00:19:21
if the height of those waves and the00:19:24
frequency of those waves is very very00:19:27
large so some of that water which here00:19:30
I'm using as an analogy to dopamine can00:19:33
slosh out of the wave pool and the00:19:35
Baseline drops However if those Peaks00:19:38
are small enough00:19:39
or they are seldom enough00:19:42
well then the Baseline that is the water00:19:44
level in that pool stays more or less00:19:46
constant I think this is an excellent00:19:49
analogy for how dopamine works in the00:19:51
mesocortical pathway as it relates to00:19:53
motivation and pursuit and all those00:19:55
sorts of things because we really need00:19:57
to think about how the Peaks and the00:19:58
Baseline relate to one another00:20:00
and this is very important the Peaks on00:20:03
the Baseline are not independent of one00:20:04
another they relate to one another so00:20:06
now you have in your mind a wave pool00:20:08
and just understand that if you get a00:20:10
great big huge wave maybe one of them it00:20:13
will crash out and some of that water00:20:15
will Splash out the Baseline will go00:20:16
down a little bit but if you get big00:20:18
peak after big peak after big peak00:20:19
pretty soon you're going to empty that00:20:21
pool whereas if you have smaller waves00:20:23
or less frequent big waves well then the00:20:26
Baseline will stay relatively constant00:20:28
so let's think about dopamine Peaks and00:20:31
bass lines and let's remember that for00:20:33
every Peak there's a trough what do I00:20:36
mean by that well when you have a wave00:20:38
you also have the bottom of the wave00:20:40
when you have a mountain you have the00:20:43
bottom of the mountain00:20:45
when we think about dopamine Peaks and00:20:48
dopamine baselines we have to include00:20:49
that trough because that trough that is00:20:53
the level of dopamine below Baseline00:20:57
really dictates whether or not you are00:20:59
going to feel motivated to pursue00:21:01
something or not so I'm going to give00:21:03
you a visual in your mind the visual in00:21:05
your mind is an increase in dopamine00:21:07
that's triggered by your desire for00:21:10
something and really could be your00:21:12
desire for anything if you're hungry and00:21:14
you're thinking about I really want a00:21:16
sandwich I really want to let's think00:21:18
what sandwich would I want right now a00:21:19
really nice roast beef sandwich on00:21:21
sourdough with a slice of Swiss Tomatoes00:21:23
slice of pickle here I'm describing the00:21:25
sandwich that I would want so if you're00:21:27
hungry and you're thinking about that00:21:29
dopamine starts Rising this is crucially00:21:33
important to understand dopamine is not00:21:35
just released when we get the reward00:21:37
when we get the thing that we're00:21:38
pursuing dopamine is released in00:21:40
anticipation of what we want00:21:44
that increase in dopamine00:21:46
is by no happenstance no mistake00:21:50
relates also to our propensity and00:21:53
desire to move remember earlier I told00:21:55
you there's a separate Circuit of00:21:56
dopamine that triggers movement and that00:21:59
when it's depleted is causing things00:22:02
like deficits and movement related to00:22:04
Parkinson's or other movement disorders00:22:05
well that's not pure coincidence that's00:22:09
because desire and the need to move in00:22:11
order to pursue and reach goals are one00:22:15
in the same process00:22:16
so if I desire a sandwich or I desire a00:22:19
cup of coffee or I desire some water00:22:21
when I'm thirsty there's an increase in00:22:23
dopamine that we could call a little00:22:24
mini Peak and dopamine00:22:27
but then here's the key thing very soon00:22:29
after I realized my desire for something00:22:33
that Peak that was caused by the desire00:22:36
comes down and drops below Baseline00:22:39
below the level of dopamine that it was00:22:42
prior to even thinking about the00:22:44
sandwich or the coffee or the glass of00:22:46
water00:22:47
and it's that drop below Baseline that00:22:50
triggers my desire to go out and find00:22:53
that sandwich that coffee that water or00:22:56
that blank insert whatever it is that00:22:58
you happen to desire action or substance00:23:00
of any kind or person Etc00:23:03
so that drop below Baseline is00:23:05
fundamental to the whole process and00:23:07
that drop below Baseline was triggered00:23:10
by the preceding Peak so let's say that00:23:12
I desire a sandwich there's an increase00:23:14
in dopamine then very quickly it comes00:23:16
down below Baseline just a little bit00:23:18
now I'm in pursuit of the sandwich I'm00:23:20
looking for where I can get that00:23:21
sandwich I can order it perhaps to be00:23:23
delivered I can go out and find it00:23:26
now is the stage in which I have to00:23:28
think about what are the different00:23:30
stimuli that is the things in my00:23:32
environment that signal whether or not00:23:33
I'm likely to get that sandwich or not00:23:35
okay so for instance if I were to go to00:23:37
my phone and order food on an app or00:23:40
walk down the street and see the sign00:23:42
for a deli that's a cue that I'm likely00:23:46
to relieve that drop in dopamine and get00:23:50
not just back to Baseline but then I'll00:23:51
get a peak in dopamine and indeed that's00:23:53
what happens if I find that Deli I go00:23:57
into the deli they're open they're00:23:58
making the sandwich that I want they00:23:59
make my sandwich and great I get that00:24:02
sandwich and that sandwich will have00:24:03
some degree of inherent reward to it00:24:06
some degree of my liking it or not00:24:09
liking it so let's say I like it it's00:24:10
not the best sandwich I've ever had but00:24:12
all I'm doing is comparing my desire for00:24:15
that sandwich to the sandwich that I00:24:16
actually got and ate and chances are00:24:20
it's going to relieve that craving00:24:22
meaning it will take that dopamine that00:24:24
had fallen below Baseline up up back to00:24:26
Baseline and if I like the sandwich it's00:24:28
going to indeed increase that dopamine00:24:31
again to another Peak00:24:33
now if I love the sandwich like it's the00:24:36
most delicious thing that I've ever00:24:37
tasted in my entire life well then I'll00:24:39
get a big peak in dopamine when I00:24:42
consume that reward however chances are00:24:45
that sandwiches more or less as I expect00:24:46
it to be which is pretty good I'll eat00:24:49
it and I'm fine what do I mean by fine00:24:51
well there's a concept called reward00:24:53
prediction error reward prediction error00:24:55
says that the dopamine that it is00:24:58
experienced that is that's released from00:25:00
the VTA and nucleus accumbens00:25:03
is going to be of a certain value and00:25:05
that value is going to be compared to00:25:07
the desire and expectation of what I00:25:10
thought I was going to get so if you00:25:11
take what you actually got minus what00:25:13
you expected that's reward prediction00:25:16
error so if the sandwich is basically00:25:17
what I expected to get fine dopamine00:25:20
comes down basically to a baseline level00:25:22
that's pretty standard for me and is00:25:24
basically the Baseline level I had00:25:25
before I ever thought about the sandwich00:25:27
at all00:25:28
if the sandwich completely surprises me00:25:30
and is completely amazing just an00:25:32
amazing sandwich well then the level of00:25:35
dopamine that I experience when I00:25:36
consume that sandwich is going to be00:25:38
even greater and it's going to be that00:25:41
minus what I expected so there it's a00:25:44
bigger reward prediction error in the00:25:46
direction of higher Peak by consuming00:25:49
the sandwich00:25:50
and then of course there's the other00:25:51
possibility which is the deli's closed00:25:54
or the sandwich they make me is lousy or00:25:56
doesn't taste good or something happened00:25:59
in the consuming of that sandwich that00:26:01
just makes a bad experience in which00:26:03
case if we take that reward experienced00:26:05
minus reward predicted from the initial00:26:09
craving well then it's going to be less00:26:12
than what I expected and therefore the00:26:14
Baseline drops below where it was prior00:26:18
to even Desiring the sandwich okay so00:26:20
all of this might seem a little bit00:26:21
complicated but it's all very simple00:26:23
desire for things increases dopamine00:26:25
but then our level of dopamine drops00:26:28
below Baseline and it's that drop below00:26:30
Baseline that triggers the motivation to00:26:33
bring that dopamine level back up by00:26:35
going and pursuing the thing that you00:26:38
wanted in the first place now of course00:26:41
as this is happening you're not00:26:42
conscious of your dopamine levels you00:26:44
experience this as context-dependent00:26:47
craving and pursuit because remember the00:26:49
prefrontal cortex is involved in context00:26:51
setting and craving and pursuit because00:26:53
it relates to action and movement which00:26:56
is one of the general features of the00:26:58
dopamine system so you can start to see00:27:00
how this is a beautifully designed00:27:02
system and you can also see how it's a00:27:04
perfect system for desire and pursuit of00:27:07
anything not just sandwiches as I'm00:27:10
giving you in this somewhat trivial but00:27:12
every day and therefore applicable00:27:13
example so just by understanding reward00:27:16
prediction error and especially by00:27:19
understanding that a craving triggers a00:27:21
peak in dopamine that makes you00:27:23
motivated but then drops your level of00:27:25
dopamine below Baseline which makes you00:27:27
even more motivated00:27:28
you are already halfway through the00:27:31
conceptual aspect of today's podcast00:27:32
because if you can understand that you00:27:35
will understand why for instance when00:27:37
you initially want something or you00:27:39
think you want something00:27:40
it puts you into motion but then pretty00:27:44
quickly you're starting to feel the pain00:27:47
of not having that and that is also00:27:49
contributing to your desire to pursue00:27:51
that thing this is a subtle effect but00:27:54
if you watch for it you'll start to see00:27:56
it or experience it within yourself your00:27:58
craving for things is not just about00:28:00
craving for those things per se it's00:28:03
also a desire to relieve the pain of not00:28:06
having those things and if you can00:28:08
internalize that and start to develop an00:28:10
awareness around it you will be in an00:28:12
amazing position to leverage all sorts00:28:15
of aspects of the dopamine system in00:28:17
order to increase your motivation00:28:18
especially when things get really hard00:28:20
or when you have the propensity to00:28:22
procrastinate which is something that00:28:23
we'll get into a little bit later in the00:28:25
podcast I'd like to take a quick break00:28:27
and acknowledge one of our sponsors00:28:29
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take athletic greens once are usually00:28:47
twice a day is that it gets to be the00:28:50
probiotics that I need for gut health00:28:52
our gut is very important it's populated00:28:54
by gut microbiota that communicate with00:28:56
the brain the immune system and00:28:58
basically all the biological systems of00:29:00
our body to strongly impact our00:29:02
immediate and long-term health00:29:03
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and minerals that make sure that all of00:29:14
my foundational nutritional needs are00:29:15
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again that's athleticgreens.com huberman00:29:36
to get the five free travel packs and00:29:37
the year supply of vitamin D3 K2 now I'd00:29:40
like to talk about the Dynamics of00:29:42
dopamine release with a little bit more00:29:44
detail and this is something I've never00:29:46
covered on any social media post or on00:29:49
any podcast either this one or as a00:29:51
guest on other podcasts because on the00:29:54
face of it it might seem a little too00:29:56
detailed like why is he telling me all00:29:57
this isn't it just enough to know that00:29:59
there are Peaks and troughs and bass00:30:00
lines and dopamine well it turns out00:30:02
that if you can understand what that00:30:05
Peak and trough are really about in00:30:08
other words what's really happening when00:30:10
we zoom in on that Peak and trough00:30:11
you'll be in an amazing position to00:30:14
overcome procrastination and essentially00:30:17
pursue any goals in an ongoing basis so00:30:20
I'm very excited to share this00:30:21
information with you because I do think00:30:23
that it has tremendous actionable power00:30:26
what I'm about to describe relates to a00:30:28
number of different findings that have00:30:29
been made mostly over the last five to00:30:31
ten years although to be quite direct00:30:33
mostly within the last five years and it00:30:36
has to do with the fact that the peak00:30:38
and trough and Baseline that I talked00:30:39
about a moment ago that are associated00:30:41
with craving00:30:42
they look like a peak followed by a00:30:44
trough followed by a return to Baseline00:30:46
and maybe another Peak if you get the00:30:48
reward or a drop below Baseline if you00:30:49
don't or you don't like what you got00:30:52
but if we were to zoom in on that Peak00:30:55
and the reward in other words really00:30:56
zoom in on the whole process and start00:30:58
thinking about the circuitry that is the00:31:01
neurons in VTA and nucleus accumbens and00:31:03
how it relates to the frontal cortex in00:31:05
a bit more detail what we discover is00:31:08
nothing short of amazing00:31:10
what we discover is that whenever we're00:31:13
pursuing something we are always looking00:31:15
for cues as to whether or not we are on00:31:17
the right path00:31:19
to achieve that thing and we are also00:31:22
setting a mindset or a context within00:31:24
our brains00:31:26
as to whether or not we are confident or00:31:28
pessimistic as to whether or not we're00:31:29
going to achieve that thing now this is00:31:31
vitally important for anyone out there00:31:32
who finds it hard to get motivated and00:31:35
stay motivated it's also vitally00:31:36
important for anyone who's00:31:38
psychologically minded in any way you00:31:40
don't have to be a psychologist but00:31:41
psychologically minded in any way and00:31:43
wonders why is it that some people are00:31:45
just so motivated and other people have00:31:48
such trouble with motivation why is it00:31:50
that some people require perfect00:31:51
conditions in order to achieve things00:31:53
and other people just seem to manage to00:31:57
pursue things no matter what it also00:31:59
relates to the fact that some of us are00:32:01
very good at achieving our goals in one00:32:03
context and not so much in another so00:32:05
here's what you need to understand00:32:08
I'll stay with the example of the roast00:32:10
beef sandwich just because we already00:32:11
have that in mind but you can replace00:32:12
roast beef sandwich with essentially any00:32:15
goal00:32:17
the cue that we're going to likely00:32:21
get what we want so for instance the00:32:24
sign that there's a deli on the corner00:32:26
or that I open my phone and that there's00:32:28
an app00:32:29
that represents a restaurant that sells00:32:32
the particular sandwich that I like that00:32:34
cue as I mentioned before increases00:32:35
dopamine you see that like oh okay and00:32:38
subconsciously there's already a signal00:32:40
that's initiated by that dopamine that00:32:42
I'm on the right path00:32:45
then as I mentioned dopamine drops below00:32:47
Baseline that's further contributing to00:32:50
my desire to go pursue that sandwich00:32:53
either with my thumbs on my phone00:32:55
through the app or with my feet and00:32:57
walking to the deli standing in line and00:32:58
so forth00:33:00
then as I mentioned before there is a00:33:03
peak in dopamine of varying height00:33:06
depending on how satisfying I find the00:33:09
reward to be00:33:10
when I actually get that sandwich get00:33:13
that goal00:33:14
now keep in mind there is some time00:33:16
delay between the queue00:33:19
the app the deli00:33:21
Etc and when I get my sandwich00:33:24
that Gap is going to be different for00:33:26
different things so in pursuing uh you00:33:28
know four-year degree it's going to be00:33:29
four years if the diploma is your goal00:33:31
if if it's an exam you're studying for00:33:33
it might be a week long00:33:35
and there will be many other signals in00:33:38
between that initial cue that hey the00:33:41
the reward likely lies down this path in00:33:44
this textbook in um on you know this00:33:47
dating app or at that Deli there are00:33:49
many other cues00:33:51
those cues come in subconsciously and00:33:53
involve everything from how long the00:33:55
line is at the deli to you know whether00:33:57
or not you're you know seeing the types00:33:59
of people on a dating app that you'd00:34:00
like to see whether or not they're00:34:01
responding to you whether or not00:34:03
someone's texting you back or not00:34:06
all of those cues are integrated and00:34:08
adjusting your Baseline level of00:34:10
dopamine all the time00:34:11
as you go to pursue that goal00:34:14
so what the dopamine system does is it00:34:16
doesn't just compare the height of the00:34:18
Peak at the beginning right the I desire00:34:20
that to the reward that you got we00:34:22
talked about reward prediction error00:34:23
that's the that's the00:34:24
kind of first grade version of reward00:34:27
prediction error it's also taking into00:34:29
account all the things that happen in00:34:31
between and all of that is serving as a00:34:34
cue for the eventual reward and all of00:34:37
that is funneling into what we call00:34:38
reward prediction error00:34:41
in other words the dopamine system is00:34:43
very good at subconsciously parsing what00:34:46
are the things that happen between00:34:47
wanting and getting00:34:49
and that's part of the learning that00:34:51
dopamine achieves and indeed there are00:34:53
specialized circuits from the VTA and00:34:55
nucleus accumbens that are involved in00:34:59
just the learning of how we achieve or00:35:02
don't achieve specific types of rewards00:35:04
that we desire so this is called reward00:35:06
contingent learning because it's00:35:08
learning the contingencies of what led00:35:10
up to a reward or what didn't lead up to00:35:13
a reward00:35:14
at the same time end in parallel there's00:35:17
an ongoing release of dopamine in the00:35:20
background and that ongoing release of00:35:22
dopamine that has nothing to do with00:35:24
learning is really just sort of a00:35:25
propeller that's driving us in the00:35:28
direction of whatever it is that we're00:35:29
trying to pursue00:35:31
so I realize for some of you this might00:35:33
seem like unnecessary or perhaps even an00:35:35
overwhelming amount of detail00:35:36
but it's actually quite simple00:35:39
your brain is trying to figure out what00:35:42
happened prior to getting or not getting00:35:43
a reward and it's comparing what you00:35:46
wanted compared to what you got00:35:49
at the same time the dopamine system00:35:51
initiates a motivation signal that takes00:35:54
you through that entire round of pursuit00:35:57
and those three things there's the00:36:00
stimulus the desire the I want that00:36:03
that's the first thing that leads to00:36:05
that Peak the peak drops a little bit00:36:06
below Baseline and it triggers00:36:08
motivation the motivation is the second00:36:09
thing00:36:10
the motivation is dopamine release also00:36:13
but from a separate set of neurons00:36:15
within this circuit driving you forward00:36:18
and the entire time that it's driving00:36:19
you forward00:36:21
it's paying attention to what's there00:36:22
along the way even if you don't realize00:36:24
it consciously and then there's the00:36:26
reward itself or the lack of reward00:36:28
itself so those three components00:36:30
the learning contingency which has to do00:36:33
with the stimulus and the reward00:36:35
and everything that happens in between00:36:37
and the propeller nature of dopamine as00:36:40
I'm referring to it those all combine00:36:42
into a total learning so that after you00:36:46
get the sandwich or after you finish the00:36:48
exam or after you go out on a date or00:36:50
after you do anything that you desire to00:36:52
do00:36:53
that system that originates in the VTA00:36:56
and nucleus accumbens and goes up to00:36:57
your cortex it learned it learned many00:37:01
things it learned the contingency00:37:02
between stimulus and desire motivation00:37:05
and whether or not you succeeded or not00:37:07
it's basically a scoreboard for how you00:37:10
did given what just happened00:37:13
so actually it's all very simple in fact00:37:16
if you can understand even just half of00:37:18
what I just said00:37:19
you are now in a far better position to00:37:22
understand everything from addiction to00:37:24
motivation to procrastination and it00:37:27
will make sense of all the tools that00:37:28
I'm going to talk about next which will00:37:30
allow you to overcome procrastination00:37:32
points to overcome deficits in00:37:34
motivation and indeed to reset your00:37:37
motivation in an ongoing way so that you00:37:39
can reach your goals okay so let's take00:37:41
everything that I just told you and set00:37:43
it aside it's still important but let's00:37:45
just say this you don't have to think00:37:46
about any of those details or names or00:37:48
anything00:37:49
let's just think about addiction00:37:51
because in biology and in Psychology00:37:54
frankly it really often pays to think00:37:57
about the extremes first and then work00:37:59
our way towards more typical00:38:01
circumstances and with that said00:38:02
addiction unfortunately is very common00:38:04
nowadays I just heard a statistic in00:38:07
fact that00:38:08
there is an 8080 percent increase in00:38:12
alcohol use disorder among women in the00:38:14
last 30 years I talked a little bit00:38:16
about this in the episode that I did00:38:18
about alcohol and health00:38:20
again I want to be very clear I'm not00:38:21
somebody that is completely against00:38:22
alcohol for adults provided they're not00:38:25
alcoholics00:38:26
turns out two drinks a week probably00:38:28
fine health-wise zero would be better if00:38:31
we're honest zero is better than any00:38:33
alcohol but two drinks a week is00:38:35
probably fine past two drinks you start00:38:37
running into problems and yet many many00:38:39
people out there male and female alike00:38:43
suffer from alcohol use disorder also00:38:46
called alcoholism00:38:47
the same is also true for things like00:38:50
methamphetamine or cocaine or other00:38:53
types of substance addictions00:38:55
and the same is also true for a lot of00:38:57
Behavioral or what are sometimes called00:38:59
process addictions things like sex00:39:01
addiction or video game addiction or any00:39:04
type of behavior that frankly is00:39:07
leveraging the dopamine system but that00:39:10
engages this Progressive narrowing of00:39:13
the things that bring someone pleasure00:39:14
such that nothing else is really Salient00:39:17
nothing else is really pulling them in00:39:19
in the way that they're video games or00:39:21
sex or pornography or alcohol00:39:25
pick your substance or00:39:27
you know behavior that you see out there00:39:29
or hopefully not but that you might00:39:31
suffer from an addiction too so what's00:39:33
happening in addiction00:39:35
well addiction involves dopamine among00:39:38
other things often the opioid system Etc00:39:40
but if we were to think about what's the00:39:43
stimulus in an addiction and what's the00:39:46
peak in dopamine and then what happens00:39:50
after that Peak It all becomes very00:39:52
clear as to why addiction happens and00:39:55
why it's so pernicious00:39:57
so for instance let's take cocaine00:39:59
cocaine causes dramatic increases in00:40:02
dopamine very very fast so if somebody00:40:05
craves cocaine00:40:07
what are they craving they're craving00:40:09
that dopamine Peak they're craving the00:40:11
increased level of alertness they're00:40:13
craving a number of things associated00:40:16
with the feeling of being under the00:40:18
influence of the drug but the stimulus00:40:21
for it simply becomes that line of00:40:23
cocaine or in the case of crack that00:40:25
crack rock that they're going to smoke00:40:27
and God forbid they're mainlining it you00:40:29
know they're shooting into a vein what00:40:31
happens is they snort smoke or inject00:40:35
cocaine and dopamine levels almost00:40:37
immediately00:40:39
go up up up up up up to a very high peak00:40:42
okay so the the time gap between the00:40:45
stimulus and the dopamine is very very00:40:47
short00:40:48
so short in fact that there's really no00:40:51
other contingencies in between that the00:40:54
mesocortical system has to learn in fact00:40:57
what is the system quote unquote learn00:40:59
it learns00:41:01
cocaine equals massive amounts of00:41:03
dopamine equals feeling euphoric and00:41:07
energetic Etc00:41:08
and in doing that00:41:10
it reinforces the whole circuit so that00:41:13
that short we can even say hyper short00:41:16
contingency is really what the system00:41:18
wants00:41:20
so much so that longer contingencies of00:41:23
say putting in the hard work of you know00:41:26
generating a fitness program or a00:41:29
professional program for yourself or a00:41:31
education program which takes not just00:41:34
many days but many weeks and years well00:41:36
none of that is going to lead to peace00:41:38
in dopamine that are as high as the00:41:40
Pekin dopamine associated with cocaine00:41:42
so that tells us something critical00:41:45
it is both the duration between desire00:41:49
end effect and when I say effect I mean00:41:51
the rewarding properties of dopamine00:41:53
that are experienced that's important so00:41:55
very short gaps00:41:57
teach the system to expect and want00:41:59
short gaps00:42:01
makes it very hard to pursue things that00:42:03
take longer00:42:04
so when we say it's the short or in this00:42:08
case hyper short distance or time00:42:11
between the stimulus and the dopamine00:42:13
what we're really talking about if we00:42:14
were to plot this out on a on a board or00:42:17
on a piece of paper is the steepness of00:42:19
the rise of that Peak it's very very00:42:21
steep the peak in dopamine is coming up00:42:23
very fast after the desire00:42:27
and in addition to that and this is very00:42:30
important the higher the peak in00:42:32
dopamine and the faster the rise to that00:42:35
Peak the further below Baseline the00:42:38
dopamine drops after the drug wears off00:42:41
okay so in the case of cocaine it's a00:42:43
very fast and very large rise in00:42:45
dopamine followed by a steep drop00:42:50
and very deep trough in dopamine below00:42:53
Baseline00:42:54
you say okay so there's pleasure then00:42:56
there's lack of pleasure ah but it's00:42:59
worse than that because it's not just00:43:01
lack of pleasure if you recall what we00:43:04
talked about a little bit earlier that00:43:06
drop below Baseline triggers00:43:08
the desire and the pursuit for what for00:43:12
more and so this sets in motion a vicious00:43:15
Loop where people start pursuing peaks00:43:17
in dopamine that can come very fast00:43:19
without much effort00:43:20
and that's one of the ways in which00:43:22
addictions start to take hold00:43:25
there's a simple way to think about this00:43:27
and to remember if you want to avoid00:43:29
this whole thing I mean the first one is00:43:31
obvious don't do cocaine don't try it00:43:33
don't use it certainly don't get00:43:34
addicted to it00:43:35
those are all sort of one in the same00:43:37
frankly I don't know many people that00:43:38
despite00:43:40
opinions to the contrary that use00:43:42
cocaine recreationally that don't at00:43:45
some point run into either a financial00:43:46
psychological physical or some other00:43:49
problem the other thing that's00:43:51
absolutely critical to keep in mind and00:43:53
this was discussed in my colleague Dr00:43:55
Anna lemke's book dopamine nation and on00:43:58
this podcast excellent book by the way I00:44:00
highly recommend it if you haven't read00:44:01
it already it's a fascinating00:44:03
exploration into dopamine as it relates00:44:05
to addiction not just drug addiction but00:44:07
other types of addiction again the name00:44:09
of that book is dopamine Nation we'll00:44:10
provide a link to it in the show note00:44:12
captions00:44:14
the other thing that happens after those00:44:16
big fast increases in dopamine caused by00:44:19
things like cocaine is00:44:22
afterwards when it quickly drops below00:44:24
Baseline00:44:26
it takes a much longer time to get back00:44:29
to the original Baseline than it did00:44:31
prior to using the drug00:44:33
and worse still is that the peaks in00:44:37
dopamine that are created from more00:44:40
consumption of cocaine leads to00:44:42
progressively lower Peaks00:44:45
and deeper troughs below Baseline so the00:44:49
whole system is Shifting away from00:44:50
pleasure and more to pain and the desire00:44:53
for pursuit of the drug00:44:55
now00:44:56
this is a terrible situation and it's a00:44:59
terrible situation that's not just00:45:00
unique to cocaine in fact if we were to00:45:03
look at the averages and again these are00:45:05
averages of the height of the peaks in00:45:08
dopamine that are created by different00:45:09
substances and the rates at which those00:45:11
Peaks take place because remember the00:45:14
time to Peak is just as important as how00:45:16
high that Peak goes00:45:18
we see some pretty interesting numbers00:45:20
so for instance and again these are00:45:21
averages based on neuroimaging combined00:45:24
with00:45:25
um what are called pet scans positron00:45:26
emission tomography combined with blood00:45:28
draws and a number of other data from00:45:30
both animal and human studies00:45:32
you find is that at Baseline just kind00:45:35
of on a background of no drug taking of00:45:39
any kind the neurons in the Venture00:45:41
pigmental nucleus accumbens area are00:45:43
firing at a rate of about three to four00:45:45
per second releasing dopamine so that's00:45:47
your Baseline of dopamine release your00:45:49
your forebrain is always seeing a little00:45:51
bit of dopamine from from that system00:45:53
if you were then to anticipate food and00:45:56
you're relatively hungry00:45:58
that would double okay so this probably00:46:00
happened when you decide to eat lunch00:46:01
today if you were hungry prior to eating00:46:03
lunch00:46:04
it doubles in the anticipation of the00:46:06
food and then depending on how much you00:46:08
enjoyed that food it might triple or00:46:10
quadruple it might be lower than it was00:46:13
during the anticipation as we talked00:46:15
about before00:46:16
so there's an approximate doubling under00:46:19
conditions of Desiring and consuming00:46:23
food00:46:24
let's take nicotine as the next example00:46:27
for people that use nicotine either00:46:30
smoking vaping snuffing or dipping00:46:34
all routes of nicotine Administration00:46:37
that I covered in our episode about00:46:38
nicotine00:46:40
there's about a 150 percent increase in00:46:44
the rate of dopamine neuron firing00:46:46
cocaine is going to increase the rate of00:46:49
dopamine output into the prefrontal00:46:51
cortex by about a thousand percent okay00:46:54
so what you're really talking about here00:46:56
is a tenfold increase00:46:58
in the amount of of dopamine that's00:47:00
released into the prefrontal cortex as00:47:02
measured by the rates of firing of these00:47:04
dopamine neurons00:47:05
methamphetamine is going to be anywhere00:47:07
from a thousand percent anywhere up to00:47:10
ten thousand percent it really varies00:47:12
depending on the potency of the drug and00:47:14
a few other factors and here's where00:47:16
perhaps it gets a little more00:47:17
interesting some of you are probably00:47:18
wondering about caffeine or about sex or00:47:21
about video games now they're the00:47:23
numbers vary tremendously and it's00:47:25
really important to understand that00:47:27
across the board not just for caffeine00:47:30
sex video games but also for nicotine00:47:33
alcohol and other substances and what we00:47:38
call motivated behaviors some of which00:47:40
are part of a healthy life like eating00:47:42
and reproduction you know provided it's00:47:44
you know age-appropriate context00:47:46
appropriate you know species appropriate00:47:48
consensual well then we consider it00:47:51
adaptive if it's not well then00:47:53
considered maladaptive00:47:55
some people will sit down to play a00:47:58
video game they really like video games00:48:00
and as they're sitting down they will00:48:02
experience a five-fold increase in the00:48:06
rate of dopamine output from their00:48:07
nucleus accumbens for other people it's00:48:09
going to be a tenfold increase for other00:48:10
people like me who don't like video00:48:12
games very much I don't have anything00:48:13
against them I don't dislike them but it00:48:15
doesn't do much for me00:48:17
it might not cause any increase00:48:18
whatsoever it might even cause a00:48:20
decrease in dopamine so there's a lot of00:48:22
individual variability for sex it turns00:48:24
out to be a range so the typical range00:48:27
that's cited in the literature is00:48:28
anywhere from a four to five-fold00:48:30
increase in the rate of dopamine neuron00:48:32
firing however there are certain00:48:35
individuals for which that number is00:48:36
doubled caffeine is a little bit of a00:48:38
special circumstance because caffeine00:48:40
has the property of not just causing the00:48:43
release of dopamine but increasing the00:48:44
amount of dopamine receptors over time00:48:46
and there aren't a lot of excellent00:48:49
measurements of the amount of dopamine00:48:51
released as a function of caffeine00:48:53
intake in different populations of00:48:55
humans it's mostly animal studies but00:48:57
what we think based on the Gestalt based00:49:00
on the overall picture of the literature00:49:02
is that it's an approximate doubling of00:49:04
the dopamine signaling that's coming out00:49:07
of the VTA nucleus accumens to00:49:09
prefrontal Cortex when we anticipate and00:49:12
when we drink our coffee00:49:14
again I really want to be clear that for00:49:17
all of these things these are relative00:49:19
levels and they are distribution so if00:49:21
we were to plot them out on paper you00:49:23
would see that these are not bar graphs00:49:25
these are overlapping curves to some00:49:27
extent so some people are going to00:49:28
achieve more dopamine release or less00:49:31
dopamine release from one Behavior or00:49:33
substance however it's very clear that00:49:35
cocaine methamphetamine00:49:37
even heroin for that matter are way out00:49:40
on the right hand side of the curve00:49:42
causing enormous increases in dopamine00:49:45
very quickly and the other things that00:49:47
we described have again a distribution00:49:49
that is more leftward shifted on this00:49:52
imaginary plot that I'm creating00:49:54
it's a lot of individual variability00:49:56
however it's fascinating that dopamine00:49:59
is the single molecule that's causing00:50:02
the craving and pursuit and experience00:50:06
of all of these substances and behaviors00:50:08
and the learning of all of that craving00:50:11
Pursuit and actual experience is what00:50:14
predicts whether or not we will00:50:15
re-engage reuse that substance or not00:50:18
re-engage in a behavior or not and how00:50:21
frequently we will do that so that's00:50:23
addiction but if you understand how the00:50:26
height of those peaks in dopamine and00:50:28
the rate to reach those Peaks and the00:50:30
troughs that result and how long the00:50:32
troughs take to get back to Baseline if00:50:34
you understand or a little or all of00:50:35
that00:50:36
you're really in a terrific position to00:50:38
understand how to Leverage The dopamine00:50:39
system for the pursuit of healthy goals00:50:42
and behaviors I should mention one thing00:50:44
about recovery from addiction which is00:50:46
that the reset of all that dopamine00:50:48
circuitry from unhealthy to healthy00:50:50
often involves depending on the00:50:52
addiction 30 days of complete abstinence00:50:54
that 30 days of complete abstinence00:50:57
inevitably involves a lot of pain and00:50:59
discomfort and craving anxiety insomnia00:51:02
Etc that relates to the big trough in00:51:04
dopamine that inevitably occurs now of00:51:07
course there are some addictions such as00:51:09
severe alcohol addiction and in some00:51:11
cases opiate addiction that immediate00:51:14
and sustained abstinence cannot be used00:51:17
as the tool somebody really needs to00:51:19
work with an addiction specialist and00:51:20
sometimes there needs to be a tapering00:51:22
off of the substance for other00:51:23
addictions it can be quote unquote cold00:51:25
turkey and then of course there are00:51:27
other addictions particularly food and00:51:30
sex but sometimes even things like video00:51:31
games for which the desired outcome is00:51:35
not necessarily to eliminate the00:51:36
behavior completely but to set some00:51:39
constraints around the behavior so that00:51:40
it's not occurring to the exclusion of00:51:43
other pleasureful things in life and00:51:45
adaptive things in life and for that00:51:47
there is the requirement for what are00:51:49
called binding behaviors we'll get back00:51:51
to binding behaviors later but binding00:51:53
behaviors or behaviors in which people00:51:55
bind their behavior00:51:57
around a particular substance use or00:52:01
around a particular behavioral addiction00:52:04
like sex Video Games Etc in space and or00:52:08
time in space meaning they might only00:52:10
engage in those particular behaviors in00:52:13
certain places and certain times when00:52:15
it's context appropriate there are00:52:17
numerous examples of binding behaviors00:52:18
in space and time it all has to do with00:52:21
clamping or directing when the00:52:25
engagement with the dopamine releasing00:52:26
behavior is going to occur so what's00:52:28
happening when people decide to go cold00:52:30
turkey or they use these binding00:52:32
behaviors well what's happening is that00:52:34
people are engaging the specific00:52:36
circuitry within the prefrontal cortex00:52:39
that as I mentioned at the beginning of00:52:40
the episode are important for context00:52:42
setting so in the cases of binding00:52:44
behaviors the prefrontal cortex is00:52:47
essentially getting trained up to00:52:48
understand that okay certain things like00:52:50
food or perhaps sex or perhaps video00:52:53
games00:52:54
they're okay if they are done or00:52:58
consumed in00:52:59
appropriate amounts or in particular00:53:02
context that requires the context00:53:04
setting goal directed behavior that the00:53:07
prefrontal cortex is responsible okay so00:53:09
for the last 10 or 15 minutes we've been00:53:10
talking a lot about addiction and00:53:12
actually this is not an episode about00:53:14
addiction however if you understand a00:53:16
little bit about the dopamine Dynamics00:53:18
in an addiction you can leverage that00:53:20
knowledge towards healthy adaptive goal00:53:23
Pursuit and achieving your goals so00:53:26
let's think about that in the context of00:53:28
what generates dopamine Peaks what00:53:31
generates desire to pursue goals what00:53:35
causes our readout of whether or not we00:53:37
achieved a goal or not in other words00:53:39
what allows us to learn how to pursue00:53:43
goals of different kinds not just get00:53:44
good at achieving one kind of goal but00:53:46
really understand and get really really00:53:48
good at setting goals and pursuing goals00:53:51
of different kinds that are adaptive in00:53:53
different areas of life because we all00:53:55
are going to have to pursue goals in00:53:57
school work relationships Fitness mental00:54:01
health and on and on in order to be our00:54:03
best selves that's clear00:54:05
well all of that is possible using the00:54:08
same basic set of dopamine circuits and00:54:11
the same basic dynamics of dopamine so00:54:14
for instance if we are going to feel00:54:16
motivated at all that is if we are going00:54:18
to wake up in the morning or have any00:54:20
period of time during our day in which00:54:22
we feel like we are capable of pursuing00:54:24
goals00:54:25
we are going to have to have a healthy00:54:28
level of Baseline dopamine in other00:54:30
words we are going to have to have00:54:31
enough dopamine in the wave pool enough00:54:34
water in the wave pool that is00:54:36
before we can generate any waves or00:54:38
peaks in dopamine let alone troughs and00:54:41
the rest so how do we achieve a healthy00:54:43
Baseline level of dopamine well there we00:54:46
can really look to some foundational00:54:48
practices practices that perhaps you've00:54:50
heard about on this podcast before and00:54:52
that to some of you might seem a little00:54:53
mundane although some of them are a bit00:54:55
more sophisticated maybe even esoteric00:54:57
the good news is that we can all control00:54:59
these things and they don't require00:55:01
purchasing anything but they do require00:55:04
some degree of regular upkeep and effort00:55:07
those things include what I call the00:55:10
very Basics now the very Basics put in00:55:13
the context of today's discussion are00:55:15
the things that put water in the wave00:55:17
pool those are going to be getting00:55:19
sufficient amounts of quality sleep each00:55:21
night something that we've done several00:55:23
episodes on and then have online00:55:25
toolkits for us you can see the master00:55:26
your sleep episode the perfect your00:55:28
sleep episode the light and health00:55:29
episode if you want to skip all that and00:55:31
just get right to the tools we have a00:55:33
sleep tool kit or it's actually called00:55:35
the toolkit for sleep that you can00:55:36
access at hubermanlab.com completely00:55:38
zero cost you just go there and download00:55:40
that toolkit getting sufficient sleep00:55:42
each night literally restores your00:55:45
dopamine reserves it allows dopamine to00:55:48
be present and for you to have a level00:55:50
of Baseline dopamine that will allow you00:55:52
to even consider your goals in any kind00:55:54
of meaningful or reasonable way00:55:57
second there are practices that are00:56:00
supported by the scientific literature00:56:01
to increase your Baseline level of00:56:03
dopamine that are independent of sleep00:56:05
but are similar to sleep and I like to00:56:07
refer to these as non-sleep deep rest00:56:09
this is not meditation there's actually00:56:12
very little evidence that meditation of00:56:15
the traditional kind of you know sitting00:56:16
eyes closed third eye sent focusing on00:56:18
your third eye center which is this area00:56:20
behind your forehead there is very00:56:22
little evidence that that increases00:56:24
levels of dopamine there is a place for00:56:26
meditation in the context of today's00:56:27
discussion but I'll repeat00:56:30
meditation itself is a focusing exercise00:56:33
it is not known to increase dopamine00:56:35
however non-sleep deep breaths so-called00:56:37
nsdr very similar although different to00:56:39
what's sometimes called Yoga Nidra which00:56:41
is where you lie there you do a sort of00:56:43
body scan some long exhale breathing and00:56:45
SDR is very similar you can find a link00:56:49
to a zero cost nsdr on YouTube it's a 1000:56:52
minute long one there are also 20 and 3000:56:54
minute ones out there also on YouTube00:56:56
but I'll provide a link to the 10 minute00:56:57
one00:56:59
those have been shown to increase the00:57:01
amount of dopamine in your dopamine00:57:03
Reserves00:57:04
by up to 65 percent which is a00:57:07
remarkable number so quality sleep00:57:09
non-sleep deep breast AKA Yoga Nidra00:57:11
very powerful ways to keep your Baseline00:57:14
level of dopamine at a sufficient level00:57:16
in addition to that nutrition no doubt00:57:20
plays a role in your Baseline level of00:57:22
dopamine because tyrosine the amino acid00:57:24
is the rate limiting enzyme For the00:57:26
synthesis of dopamine00:57:29
tyrosine is present in varying levels in00:57:31
different foods you can look those up00:57:32
online you just simply put in a search00:57:35
for tyrosine levels in different foods00:57:37
everything from particular cheeses like00:57:40
parmesan cheese has high levels of00:57:42
tyrosine certain meat certain nuts00:57:44
certain vegetables without getting into00:57:46
details in specifics you can find those00:57:47
there but you need proper nutrition and00:57:49
therefore nutrients in particular00:57:51
tyrosine in order to have00:57:55
sufficient levels of Baseline dopamine00:57:57
the third thing on the list and again00:57:58
these are things that we come back to00:57:59
almost every episode but I don't think00:58:01
they can be repeated enough because00:58:02
these are really things that we need to00:58:03
focus on every 24 hours you might be00:58:06
able to skip a day here or there if you00:58:07
get sick or you're traveling or you have00:58:09
some major life event but really every00:58:11
24 hours we need to re-up our sleep we00:58:14
need to re-up our nutrients00:58:17
even if you're fasting you're re-upping00:58:18
your nutrients from stored sources00:58:20
within your body00:58:21
the third thing is sunlight morning00:58:23
sunlight in particular I've done00:58:25
extensive episodes about this check out00:58:27
the episode on lighting your health if00:58:29
you want all the details but you want to00:58:31
try and view sunlight as early in the00:58:32
day as possible00:58:34
five to ten minutes on a clear day00:58:36
minimum 10 to 20 minutes on a cloudy day00:58:39
minimum00:58:40
20 or 30 minutes on a very overcast day00:58:43
minimum without sunglasses don't stare00:58:46
at the sun please don't damage your eyes00:58:48
look off slightly off from the Sun but00:58:50
yes you want to face the Eastward00:58:51
towards the Sun and on those cloudy days00:58:53
that's especially important to do why00:58:55
well viewing morning sunlight increases00:58:58
cortisol early in the day which is00:58:59
excellent because you want cortisol00:59:02
elevated early in the day and you want00:59:03
it lower later in the day and because of00:59:06
the relationship between the cells in00:59:08
your eye that sense sunlight00:59:09
specifically morning sunlight believe it00:59:11
or not that happens and signal to your00:59:13
hypothalamus and the relationship00:59:14
between the hypothalamus and the00:59:16
pituitary and other endocrine organs00:59:19
it sets in motion a dopamine-related00:59:22
Cascade in00:59:24
neuromodulators dopamine and hormones00:59:27
that lead to states of well-being00:59:29
elevated mood alertness Etc throughout00:59:32
the day it also helps your sleep at00:59:33
night but today we're talking about00:59:34
dopamine so yes believe it or not that00:59:36
morning sunlight exposure does increase00:59:38
your levels of dopamine not just00:59:40
cortisol00:59:41
and fourth on the list is going to be00:59:43
movement exercise of varying kinds be00:59:46
resistance training could be00:59:47
cardiovascular training that does00:59:49
increase levels of dopamine here we're00:59:51
not talking about achieving peaks in00:59:53
dopamine right that could be00:59:55
accomplished through setting a personal00:59:56
record a PR or through Sprints or heavy00:59:59
lifts or learning some new Dynamic01:00:01
movement what we're really talking about01:00:03
here is getting into a regular exercise01:00:05
program of if not every day at least01:00:08
five days a week a mixture of01:00:10
cardiovascular and resistance exercise01:00:12
that we also know is known to elevate01:00:16
and maintain an elevated level of01:00:18
Baseline dopamine so it's not just about01:00:21
the Euphoria you feel during or after01:00:23
exercise it's also about the Baseline01:00:26
level of dopamine that's achieved01:00:28
through regular movement and engaging in01:00:30
movement and if you're asking how could01:00:32
that be well you already know the answer01:00:33
the circuits in the brain and body that01:00:36
generate movement not just goal seeking01:00:39
but movement itself as I mentioned01:00:40
earlier that Niagara striatal pathway01:00:43
and yes that circuit is separate from01:00:46
the VTA nucleus accumbens to cortical01:00:49
circuit the mesocortical circuit that01:00:51
we've mainly been focusing on today but01:00:53
they interact and so by engaging in01:00:55
regular movement you ensure that you're01:00:57
maintaining elevated levels of Baseline01:00:59
dopamine which is what you want if01:01:01
you're going to be able to engage in any01:01:03
kind of motivated Pursuit behavior of01:01:05
any kind so those are the fundamentals01:01:07
that will set the level of Baseline01:01:10
dopamine in your system01:01:12
a couple of key points yes there is01:01:15
variation based on both genetics and01:01:18
Circumstance in Baseline levels of01:01:19
dopamine if someone's going through a01:01:21
particular hard time or if somebody01:01:23
inherited a gene in the dopamine01:01:25
synthesis pathway that simply affords01:01:27
them higher levels of Baseline dopamine01:01:28
we likely know these people they seem01:01:30
hyper motivated all the time not just01:01:32
based on prior success01:01:34
but they just seem to have a lot of01:01:36
energy and a lot of go drive you know01:01:37
you talk about activation energy some of01:01:39
you may know what that term means others01:01:41
of you won't having low activation01:01:43
energy is great I mean the amount of01:01:44
energy that it takes to get into action01:01:46
to pursue adaptive and meaningful01:01:47
healthy goals some people just seem to01:01:49
have lower activation energy and higher01:01:51
levels of dopamine are probably01:01:53
associated with that some of us have01:01:55
lower levels of Baseline dopamine01:01:57
regardless everyone needs to engage in01:02:00
the foundational things that I just01:02:02
mentioned a few moments ago every 2401:02:05
hours or at least strive to there is no01:02:07
escaping that I'd like to just take a01:02:09
brief moment and thank one of our01:02:11
podcast sponsors which is inside tracker01:02:13
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there are things that can increase one's01:03:27
Baseline level of dopa being further01:03:30
and some of those get us into the realm01:03:33
of supplements and prescription drugs01:03:35
but for now I just want to mention a few01:03:36
of them that are purely behavioral in01:03:38
nature are zero cost and that have been01:03:41
shown in the research literature to01:03:43
increase Baseline levels of dopamine for01:03:45
long periods of time and this is01:03:47
important because if any of you are out01:03:49
there listening to this thing about01:03:50
Peaks and troughs and bass lines you01:03:52
might be asking wait what's the01:03:55
difference between a Baseline and a peak01:03:57
really because if for instance you get a01:04:01
big peak well that's a peak in the01:04:03
Baseline so how do you distinguish01:04:05
between Peak and Baseline and well01:04:07
there's a trough and let's say that01:04:08
trough lasts an hour is that hour-long01:04:11
trough for your baseline or you know01:04:13
where's your set point how do you01:04:14
establish your set point or more01:04:16
importantly how do you raise your set01:04:17
point ah well if you're not already01:04:19
asking that question I just asked it for01:04:21
you I Define an increase in your01:04:23
Baseline level in dopamine to be01:04:25
anything that increases dopamine for01:04:27
more than one hour you know when we01:04:29
think about cocaine and amphetamine01:04:31
pornography sex caffeine things of that01:04:34
sort regardless of how long one engages01:04:36
in about of those behaviors or01:04:39
substances01:04:41
the increases in dopamine are going to01:04:43
be relatively short-lived on the order01:04:44
of minutes to an hour sometimes longer01:04:47
now I didn't say that's how long you're01:04:48
engaging in the behaviors I said that's01:04:50
how long those increases in dopamine are01:04:52
going to occur even if you were to01:04:54
continually engage in those behaviors01:04:55
and remember with continual engagement01:04:57
in a dopamine spiking Behavior01:05:00
a behavior that increases dopamine Peaks01:05:02
the height of those Peaks remember gets01:05:04
lower and lower and lower especially in01:05:05
a short amount of time and then drops01:05:07
below Baseline01:05:08
there are tools and techniques that you01:05:10
can use to elevate your Baseline level01:05:12
of dopamine for long periods of time and01:05:15
here again this is done in addition to01:05:18
the basic tools that I mentioned a few01:05:20
moments ago the simplest one for which01:05:22
there are excellent data and here I'm01:05:24
referring to data published in the01:05:26
European Journal physiology I'll provide01:05:27
a link to this is that01:05:30
exposure of your body up to the neck to01:05:33
cold water and it doesn't have to be01:05:36
super cold by the way to cold water has01:05:38
been shown to increase Baseline levels01:05:40
of dopamine and the other so-called01:05:42
catecholamines which include01:05:43
norepinephrine and epinephrine but01:05:46
for sake of today's discussion dopamine01:05:48
in particular01:05:49
for not just one but at least two and01:05:53
probably as long as four or five hours01:05:55
there have been some additional01:05:56
scientific studies after the paper I01:05:58
just mentioned01:05:59
and it's really remarkable you can01:06:01
accomplish this a number of different01:06:02
ways you could get into a cold shower in01:06:05
the morning and I do recommend doing01:06:06
this in the morning and in that case01:06:07
it's okay to get the water on your head01:06:09
in fact I recommend it uh you could get01:06:12
into an ice bath you could get into a01:06:13
cold Plunge in these circumstances I'm01:06:16
not suggesting this for sake of01:06:17
increasing metabolism or fat loss and01:06:19
the whole discussion around uh01:06:21
deliberate cold and metabolism and fat01:06:23
loss has become a little bit01:06:24
controversial so we won't go there now01:06:26
mostly because we're focused on the01:06:28
clear ability of deliberate cold01:06:30
exposure to increase dopamine for long01:06:32
periods of time AKA your dopamine01:06:34
Baseline01:06:35
the ways to do this vary depending on01:06:37
the temperature so for instance01:06:39
there are data pointing to the fact that01:06:41
if you want to get a long lasting01:06:43
increase in your Baseline dopamine you01:06:45
could take a very cold shower or cold01:06:48
plunge or ice bath01:06:50
for a very brief period of time anywhere01:06:52
from 30 seconds to two minutes maybe01:06:54
three minutes but probably 30 seconds to01:06:56
two minutes now you might ask what is01:06:58
very cold you have to be careful because01:06:59
I don't want to recommend anything01:07:00
that's going to cause anyone to have a01:07:02
heart attack or go into shock or01:07:04
anything of that sort01:07:06
it's going to vary by person depending01:07:09
on your level of cold tolerance what I01:07:11
recommend is if you are going for the01:07:14
short exposure long dopamine release01:07:16
approach that is 30 seconds to two01:07:19
minutes that you start warmer than you01:07:21
think you need to and then you ease into01:07:23
it over a few days01:07:24
but we're really talking about ranges in01:07:27
temperature from anywhere from about 3701:07:29
degrees Fahrenheit to about 55 degrees01:07:32
Fahrenheit again be careful approach it01:07:35
with caution and ease into it I do01:07:37
recommend doing this early in the day01:07:39
and I should mention not after strength01:07:42
or hypertrophy training because within01:07:44
the six hours after strength or01:07:45
hypertrophy training this deliberate01:07:47
cold exposure especially immersion up to01:07:48
the neck can suppress the strength and01:07:50
hypertrophy adaptation that the training01:07:52
is designed to accomplish okay so that's01:07:55
one approach the other approach that's01:07:56
supported by the literature to increase01:07:58
Baseline levels of dopamine for very01:08:00
long periods of time in fact this is the01:08:02
original approach is to get into warmer01:08:05
water so not warm but warmer so 6001:08:07
degree Fahrenheit water01:08:10
up to the neck and to stay there for01:08:12
about 45 to 60 Minutes the reason I01:08:15
don't think most people will do that or01:08:17
that most people would prefer a shorter01:08:18
colder exposure protocol is that most01:08:21
people don't have 45 to 60 minutes each01:08:23
morning to get into water and sit there01:08:25
and in that study they actually had them01:08:26
sitting in lawn chairs basically in the01:08:28
shallow end of a pool up to their neck01:08:30
for a full 60 minutes and then measuring01:08:32
dopamine release and so forth so there01:08:34
are a bunch of different ways to do this01:08:35
I should emphasize I don't think you01:08:36
need to be super precise about the01:08:38
temperature and even the duration what I01:08:41
recommend is01:08:42
find a temperature that's uncomfortably01:08:44
cold to you meaning that you feel01:08:46
agitated you want to get out but that01:08:47
you're confident you can safely stay in01:08:49
and again I can't give a simple01:08:50
prescriptive to everybody but this is01:08:52
known to increase Baseline levels of01:08:54
dopamine significantly in fact double01:08:57
them or more for long periods of time01:08:59
meaning hours up to four maybe even six01:09:01
hours into the day which is one of the01:09:03
reasons I suggest doing this early in01:09:05
the day01:09:06
I happen to get into a cold plunger take01:09:08
a cold shower first thing in the morning01:09:09
I do go outside and get my sunlight01:09:11
first sometimes sometimes I do the cold01:09:13
first it really depends on my01:09:14
circumstances and how I'm feeling that01:09:16
day I don't think it really matters01:09:17
which one you do first but you want to01:09:19
try and get both of those in early in01:09:20
the day because you really want the01:09:22
catecholamines and cortisol elevated01:09:23
early in the day okay so that's01:09:25
deliberate cold exposure we already01:09:26
talked about exercise so if you're doing01:09:29
your exercise early in the day there's01:09:30
no reason why it couldn't be done in01:09:32
concert with this deliberate cold01:09:33
exposure I recommend doing the01:09:35
deliberate cold exposure first for the01:09:36
reasons we talked about a few minutes01:09:38
ago and then of course there are01:09:40
compounds both prescription and01:09:41
over-the-counter compounds that can01:09:43
indeed raise your Baseline levels of01:09:45
dopamine for an hour or more and when I01:09:48
say an hour or more it really depends on01:09:50
individual variation in terms of how01:09:53
quickly you metabolize dopamine and it01:09:57
depends on individual variation in how01:09:59
you manage or tolerate different dosages01:10:01
of drugs and different types of drugs so01:10:03
the typical drugs and here I'm talking01:10:05
about legal01:10:06
prescription drugs for increasing01:10:08
dopamine are things like Ritalin01:10:11
Adderall modafinil and arm modafinil01:10:14
also tap into the system and I did an01:10:16
entire episode about ADHD which is the01:10:18
typical context in which you hear about01:10:19
these prescription drugs but assuming01:10:21
it's prescribed by a doctor for either01:10:23
clinical reasons like ADHD or for other01:10:25
reasons all of those compounds do01:10:28
significantly increase Baseline levels01:10:30
of dopamine for many many hours that's01:10:32
absolutely clear and it's one of the01:10:33
major reasons why those drugs are so01:10:35
effective in increasing motivation and01:10:37
attention then there are compounds that01:10:38
are sold over the counter things like01:10:40
amino acids such as l-tyrosine itself01:10:42
that's a very commonly sold and used01:10:45
amino acid it's present in a lot of01:10:47
so-called pre-workout formulas I as many01:10:50
of you know am a fan of single01:10:52
ingredient supplements for the most part01:10:54
aside from foundational supplements like01:10:56
ag1 which give you many many01:10:58
micronutrients kind of all together01:11:01
because it would be nearly impossible to01:11:02
consume each of those as individual01:11:05
ingredients and get the right amounts01:11:07
Etc but for all other supplements I'm a01:11:10
big believer in parsing what you need01:11:12
and what's most effective for you in01:11:14
single ingredient formulations and the01:11:16
typical ways in which people01:11:18
work to elevate their Baseline levels of01:11:20
dopamine01:11:21
with supplements are using either01:11:23
l-tyrosine which as I mentioned earlier01:11:25
is the rate limiting enzyme for dopamine01:11:27
or by using what's called mucuna purines01:11:30
which is actually very similar to l-dopa01:11:32
which is the treatment for Parkinson's01:11:34
mechuna purines actually comes from the01:11:36
velvety outside coating of a certain01:11:39
bean I know it sounds really esoteric01:11:41
but that's actually where it's found in01:11:42
nature and it's really 99 l-dopa and I01:11:47
confess having tried McCune appearance01:11:49
having examined the scientific01:11:51
literature on the cune appearance there01:11:53
is some evidence that it can increase01:11:54
dopamine especially in that01:11:56
tuberinfrendibular pathway because it01:11:59
can tap into some of the hormone-related01:12:00
functions of the pituitary it does01:12:03
increase alertness and mood it might01:12:05
even increase libido motivation Etc but01:12:08
the effects of mercuna purines tend to01:12:10
be very much of the increasing the peak01:12:13
in dopamine and then very quickly01:12:15
dropping that peak in other words the01:12:17
peak trough phenomenon not for01:12:19
increasing Baseline levels of dopamine01:12:21
now it's likely different for people01:12:24
with Parkinson's who are taking01:12:25
prescription drugs that are similar to01:12:27
mercuna purine so if people have01:12:29
Parkinson's oftentimes they are01:12:30
prescribed things like l-dopa which is01:12:33
in the pathway to dopamine synthesis or01:12:36
they are prescribed things like01:12:38
bromocriptine which will indeed increase01:12:40
dopamine and I do realize that some01:12:43
people use those prescription drugs01:12:45
recreationally which I don't recommend01:12:47
those drugs can be used to increase01:12:50
Baseline levels of dopamine but more01:12:52
typically they cause Peaks and dopamine01:12:53
and troughs and dopamine which is why I01:12:55
do not recommend them they are not going01:12:57
to allow you to accomplish what you want01:12:59
if your goal is more motivation Etc01:13:02
in fact they are likely to do the01:13:04
opposite give you a big peak an01:13:06
alertness and then a crash that can01:13:07
include depressive symptoms and just not01:13:10
feeling very good01:13:11
l-tyrosine however has been examined in01:13:14
the scientific literature and at01:13:16
reasonably low dosages has been shown to01:13:19
increase circulating and available01:13:21
levels of dopamine both in the brain and01:13:23
body and lead to increased cognitive01:13:25
performance and in some cases physical01:13:27
output I'll provide links to a few of01:13:29
these studies but the two that I really01:13:31
parsed most finely for sake of this01:13:33
episode really just focus on taking01:13:35
l-tyrosine under conditions where your01:13:37
Baseline levels of dopamine are reduced01:13:39
due to stress and under conditions where01:13:43
there's no stress and people are trying01:13:44
to increase their Baseline levels of01:13:46
dopamine for sake of improving cognitive01:13:47
function the first paper is entitled01:13:49
effective tyrosine on cognitive function01:13:51
and blood pressure under stress I'll01:13:54
provide a link to this in the show note01:13:55
captions and it's one of many papers01:13:57
really01:13:58
dating back to the early 90s exploring01:14:00
how01:14:01
relatively High frankly relatively High01:14:04
dosages of l-tyrosine Taken under01:14:06
conditions of stress allow people to01:14:09
rescue some of their cognitive function01:14:10
in terms of working memory tasks and01:14:12
other kind of cognitive tasks visual01:14:14
Pursuit tasks and so on01:14:16
the second paper is entitled tyrosine01:14:18
improves working memory in a01:14:20
multitasking environment and the second01:14:22
paper is perhaps more interesting01:14:23
because it involves exploring the use of01:14:25
tyrosine supplementation basically01:14:27
taking tyrosine about an hour before a01:14:29
cognitive task or set of cognitive tasks01:14:31
that involve a lot of multitasking and01:14:33
working memory working memory for those01:14:35
of you that don't know is your ability01:14:37
to maintain small batches of information01:14:39
in your mind for relatively short01:14:41
periods of time so for instance if I01:14:43
tell you my phone number or the phone01:14:44
number where I grew up 493-293101:14:47
if you can remember that chances are01:14:50
you'll remember it for 30 seconds 6001:14:52
seconds but that you won't remember it01:14:54
tomorrow because there's really no01:14:55
reason to a lot of the tasks that we do01:14:57
throughout the day involve working01:14:58
memory and working memory is very01:15:00
subject to interference from other tasks01:15:03
that we happen to be doing like looking01:15:04
at our phone or having a conversation or01:15:06
trying to navigate through a city01:15:08
it involves a lot of attention and this01:15:10
study shows that tyrosine improves01:15:12
working memory especially in the context01:15:14
of multitasking and having a lot of01:15:17
conflicting goals and they did a number01:15:18
of really nice experiments here it's01:15:21
again it's a small study not that many01:15:22
subjects but it's one of several papers01:15:24
in fact this is the paper that kind of01:15:26
set in motion the Domino of other papers01:15:28
exploring the efficacy of l-tyrosine for01:15:30
cognitive performance and they looked at01:15:32
working memory tasks of course but also01:15:35
auditory visual tasks and they involve01:15:37
some interference of visual cues and01:15:39
things of that sort and they saw some01:15:40
really interesting effects basically01:15:43
when we need to attend to multiple01:15:47
things at the same time l-tyrosine can01:15:49
help us do that at least as it relates01:15:52
to memory when I say althyrosine what I01:15:54
really mean is having your Baseline01:15:56
levels of dopamine elevated can really01:15:58
help navigate multitasking environments01:16:02
especially as it relates to working01:16:04
memory and this is true under conditions01:16:05
of stress and under conditions of not01:16:08
stressful okay you might say well isn't01:16:10
multitasking stressful itself yes it can01:16:13
be but when we talk about under01:16:14
conditions of stress we're talking about01:16:15
people who are sleep deprived we're01:16:16
talking about people that are under01:16:17
other kinds of psychological or physical01:16:19
stress l-tyrosine can help in that01:16:21
context as well so as I mentioned before01:16:23
in these studies they use very high01:16:26
dosages of l-tyrosine so high that01:16:28
actually I don't recommend them they did01:16:30
measure stress hormones they did measure01:16:31
blood pressure and things of that sort01:16:33
but I want to caution you I do not01:16:35
recommend I will say it again I do not01:16:37
recommend following the dosages that01:16:40
were used in these two studies01:16:42
because they are exceedingly high they01:16:45
used 100 milligrams per kilogram of body01:16:48
weight of tyrosine one hour prior to01:16:51
these cognitive tasks now I weigh about01:16:54
220 pounds I'm a little bit lighter than01:16:56
that so that's a hundred kilograms01:16:58
approximately01:17:00
translated from this study that would01:17:02
mean that had I participated in the01:17:04
study and I wasn't in the placebo group01:17:07
but I was in the l-tyrosine group I01:17:09
would have been given 10 000 milligrams01:17:11
of l-tyrosine which is 10 grams of01:17:13
l-tyrosine I do not recommend that in01:17:16
fact there are papers showing that as01:17:19
little as 500 milligrams01:17:21
but perhaps up to one gram that is a01:17:24
thousand milligrams or 1500 milligrams a01:17:26
gram and a half of l-tyrosine Taken 3001:17:28
to 60 minutes before a cognitive or01:17:30
physical task can increase Baseline01:17:32
levels of dopamine for extended periods01:17:34
of time and thereby improve performance01:17:36
on those mental or physical tasks01:17:39
so01:17:40
if you are somebody who's interested in01:17:41
trying l-tyrosine please know that the01:17:44
increases in Baseline levels of dopamine01:17:46
can be substantial they are long lasting01:17:50
which qualifies them as Baseline01:17:52
increases as opposed to Peaks and I01:17:54
would say you should also start with the01:17:55
lowest possible dose so for most people01:17:57
250 to 500 milligrams is going to be a01:18:00
reasonable starting dose depending on01:18:02
your body weight smaller people start01:18:03
with 250 larger maybe 500 keep an eye on01:18:07
whether or not you're combining it with01:18:08
caffeine or with any other stimulants01:18:09
and keep in mind that again the bigger01:18:12
the peak in dopamine the bigger the01:18:14
trough in dopamine afterwards so pay01:18:16
attention to whether or not you01:18:17
experience a crash that same day or the01:18:19
next day but chances are if you're using01:18:21
a relatively low level of l-tyrosine so01:18:23
anywhere from 250 maybe 500 milligrams01:18:27
or a thousand milligrams of l-tyrosine01:18:29
prior to cognitive or physical work and01:18:31
taken early in the day by the way01:18:33
because this can act as a bit of a01:18:34
stimulant that you're going to achieve01:18:35
these long lasting increases in Baseline01:18:37
dopamine but please also keep in mind01:18:40
that that I always always suggest that01:18:43
you engage in the proper behaviors and01:18:47
you disengage from the improper01:18:48
behaviors as a first line of offense on01:18:51
any health goal so now you know how to01:18:54
set your Baseline levels of dopamine at01:18:56
the highest possible level01:18:58
you of course want to guard that01:18:59
Baseline level of dopamine very01:19:01
carefully so for instance you want to01:19:03
avoid any kind of behaviors or01:19:05
substances that are going to Peak your01:19:07
Baseline level of dopamine very high or01:19:10
very sharply or if you do engage in01:19:12
those types of behaviors whatever they01:19:14
may be that you are well aware that your01:19:17
Baseline level of dopamine will drop far01:19:20
below what it was after that Peak has01:19:23
fallen you will be essentially in the01:19:25
quote unquote trough01:19:26
if however you find yourself in that01:19:28
trough you now have the knowledge to01:19:31
understand that that trough will resolve01:19:33
if you wait enough time that Baseline01:19:36
level of dopamine that you were at prior01:19:38
to the peak will come back you will feel01:19:40
better however most people don't know01:19:43
that and as a consequence when they feel01:19:45
that low01:19:47
that is they feel kind of a motivated01:19:50
maybe a little bit depressed maybe a lot01:19:52
ammotivated or a lot depressed following01:19:54
some quote unquote Peak experience01:19:57
what they end up doing is thinking about01:19:59
what caused that Peak experience and01:20:01
then go back and try to re-engage in the01:20:04
behavior and try and regenerate that01:20:06
Peak experience but you now know that01:20:08
that is a terrible strategy in fact that01:20:10
strategy will only lead to diminished01:20:13
Peaks from the same experience it will01:20:15
lead to in many cases pursuing more and01:20:18
more intense experiences to try and01:20:21
recapitulate recreate that big peak01:20:23
which won't work or even worse people01:20:26
start stacking and combining different01:20:28
dopamine increasing behaviors in order01:20:31
to try and obtain something like that01:20:33
initial Peak when in fact all they need01:20:36
to do all you need to do is simply wait01:20:39
because the way that the dopamine01:20:40
circuitry is arranged is that it's not01:20:43
just about pleasure as you know it's01:20:45
about motivation desire Pursuit and01:20:47
pleasure and it also has everything to01:20:50
do with pain and discomfort01:20:52
now when people hear the word pain they01:20:55
often think oh pain okay so a physical01:20:57
pain or an intense emotional pain but01:21:00
today we're going to talk about pain a01:21:01
little bit differently we're going to01:21:02
talk about the pain associated with the01:21:04
trough and dopamine that occurs after a01:21:06
big peak in dopamine01:21:08
as a period in which01:21:10
pain and effort go hand in hand and I'll01:21:13
return to this in a moment but I want01:21:15
you to just note that in your mind kind01:21:16
of earmark that in your mind because01:21:18
what we're about to talk about is how to01:21:20
leverage that pain and to use effort as01:21:23
a way to not just get out of the trough01:21:24
more quickly but actually to get back to01:21:27
a higher level of Baseline as you exit01:21:29
that trough meanwhile I really want to01:21:32
harp on this one point that I made a01:21:34
moment ago which is that after some big01:21:37
experience so it could be a vacation or01:21:39
a night out partying or the birth of a01:21:41
new child all of these are well-known01:21:44
phenomena that lead to troughs or01:21:46
deficits in dopamine afterwards which01:21:49
can cause a sort of postpartum01:21:50
depression postpartum depression is a01:21:52
phrase normally used to describe01:21:54
literally postpartum post-birth of a01:21:57
child depression and that has many01:21:59
causes not just related to dopamine01:22:01
baselines although it does involve01:22:02
dopamine baselines but it has hormonal01:22:04
aspects and other aspects as well but01:22:07
postpartum depression is also used to01:22:09
describe any time that our Baseline01:22:11
dopamine has has gone down way way below01:22:14
what it was prior to some recent Peak or01:22:17
exciting exhilarating win or behavior01:22:20
couple of things that one can do in01:22:22
order to get out of that trough more01:22:24
quickly the first one is simply to wait01:22:26
with the understanding that you will get01:22:28
out I know that sounds overly simplistic01:22:30
and maybe a little bit brutal but I01:22:33
think most people don't realize this01:22:34
they don't realize that the dopamine01:22:37
circuitry does take time to replenish01:22:39
and it has everything to do with01:22:40
restoring both the synthesis of dopamine01:22:43
as well as What's called the readily01:22:45
releasable pool of dopamine so dopamine01:22:47
is packaged in these little spherical01:22:49
things that we call vesicles those01:22:50
vesicles are released from the ends of01:22:53
nerves so in this case we're talking01:22:55
about the nerves that originate again01:22:57
and01:22:58
VTA and nucleus accumbens and send their01:23:00
little wires up to the prefrontal cortex01:23:02
and that's where dopamine is released01:23:04
and that readily releasable pool of01:23:06
dopamine takes time to replenish and01:23:08
that can take several days in order to01:23:10
replenish just knowing that can help you01:23:13
through that process and of course then01:23:15
it raises the question is there anything01:23:16
that you can do to accelerate that01:23:18
process and indeed there is and indeed01:23:21
this is what I consider not just01:23:23
something to get you out of a trench of01:23:25
kind of lower mood and motivation but01:23:27
actually what represents the Holy Grail01:23:30
of motivation today I'm going to talk01:23:32
about this pain effort process as a very01:23:35
powerful way to get out of sticking01:23:38
points but more importantly to get into01:23:40
a mode where effort and reward can01:23:43
actually accelerate your progress along01:23:46
any path to any goal and in a way that01:23:48
you can do it repeatedly and this is not01:23:50
simply taking mechanisms from biology01:23:52
and painting names on them rather this01:23:55
is leveraging mechanisms in biology that01:23:57
are well defined in the animal and human01:23:58
in literature that have parallels to the01:24:01
addiction and addiction recovery01:24:02
literature but that have been shown in01:24:05
specific circumstances to really allow01:24:07
people to engage in motivational01:24:09
Pursuits in a variety of context School01:24:12
relationships work etc in an ongoing way01:24:15
and in a way that never depletes their01:24:17
Baseline of dopamine to the point where01:24:18
they have to do a lot of extra work to01:24:20
get it back and in a way that allows01:24:22
them to be really motivated in a variety01:24:25
of contexts in an Adaptive way so what01:24:27
we're really talking about here is01:24:28
regardless of your genetics regardless01:24:30
of who your parents are which obviously01:24:32
you couldn't select01:24:34
being able to leverage your dopamine01:24:37
system in order to be maximally01:24:39
motivated when you want to be and indeed01:24:42
to avoid procrastination I'd like to01:24:44
tell you about a classic experiment that01:24:46
I've described once before on this01:24:48
podcast but frankly this experiment is01:24:50
so crucial I don't think it can be01:24:51
described enough01:24:53
this was an experiment that was done at01:24:55
Stanford many years ago and involved01:24:57
children but it's actually been repeated01:24:59
in adults01:25:01
the experiment involved observing a01:25:03
classroom of young children so these01:25:04
were kids about kindergarten age a01:25:06
little bit older and observing which01:25:09
activities kids like to do in their free01:25:11
time so their structured time where they01:25:13
had to you know these are little kids so01:25:14
they play blocks or they had to01:25:16
um sing or they had to write or or do01:25:19
what they could or I suppose draw01:25:20
they're probably not writing um01:25:22
significant prose at that age but then01:25:24
they had free time where they could do01:25:25
whatever they wanted and what the01:25:26
researchers did was observe the children01:25:29
who selected by their own choice to draw01:25:32
pictures so there were some tables out01:25:34
with crayons and markers and paper Etc01:25:36
and there were some kids that would just01:25:37
naturally go to that activity every day01:25:39
because they liked that activity01:25:41
and they measured how much of the free01:25:43
time these children elected to use their01:25:46
free time drawing doing these different01:25:48
art projects01:25:50
and then what they did was they started01:25:53
introducing rewards to these children01:25:55
they started putting a gold star or in01:25:57
some cases a silver star on their pieces01:26:00
of artwork and telling them what a good01:26:01
job they did and the kids really liked01:26:04
that in fact who wouldn't right they're01:26:06
not only doing an activity that they01:26:08
like but they're also getting a reward01:26:09
for it so you can probably see where01:26:11
this is all going what they were doing01:26:12
was they were increasing the amount of01:26:14
dopamine that these children experience01:26:16
and again in parallel experiments done01:26:19
with adults if you take adults who enjoy01:26:21
a particular activity you let them do01:26:22
activity and then you start rewarding01:26:24
them for that activity especially when01:26:25
you surprise them with a reward for an01:26:28
activity they already like01:26:29
they report that being a much more01:26:31
pleasurable experience than had they01:26:32
just done the activity01:26:34
then what they did with these children01:26:36
and in the experiments with adults done01:26:38
later on was they cease giving them the01:26:41
reward and then they observe what01:26:43
percentage of their free time they spend01:26:45
doing that activity drawing and what01:26:48
they observed was you guessed it a drop01:26:51
in the total amount of time that the01:26:53
children elected to do this activity01:26:55
that initially they were doing quite a01:26:57
lot in other words01:26:59
their total satisfaction or desire or01:27:02
motivation to engage in this activity01:27:03
drop below what it was prior to ever01:27:05
receiving a reward and again this has01:27:07
been repeated in a variety of contexts01:27:09
in different populations different01:27:10
cultures different countries men women01:27:13
boys girls lots of different backgrounds01:27:16
so what this tells us is everything you01:27:19
already know which is that reward01:27:20
prediction error is not just about the01:27:23
desire to do something and you carrying01:27:25
it out and it being pretty good01:27:27
amazing or not good okay I always like01:27:31
to joke that the nervous system sort of01:27:32
codes things into three bins you can01:27:35
think about this in terms of food or any01:27:36
type of experience it can either be yum01:27:38
yes I really like that yuck I really01:27:40
don't like that or meh it's kind of so01:27:43
so01:27:44
what the scenario led to where rewards01:27:46
were received for an activity that01:27:47
people already like to do and then01:27:49
removed was that an activity that at one01:27:52
point was a yum becomes a meh and that01:27:56
all reflects a drop in Baseline dopamine01:27:59
why because the activity that the01:28:02
children or adults liked combined with01:28:04
the gold star or the monetary reward or01:28:08
praise that children and adults seem to01:28:10
like compounded to create a bigger peak01:28:13
in dopamine and therefore a bigger01:28:15
trough in dopamine and if you're already01:28:17
wondering whether or not their desire to01:28:19
engage in that activity eventually came01:28:20
back it did indeed so essentially what I01:28:23
described all matches precisely with01:28:26
dopamine reward prediction error and the01:28:28
fact that peaks in dopamine give rise to01:28:30
subsequent troughs and dopamine that if01:28:32
one Waits long enough01:28:33
allow Baseline levels of dopamine to01:28:35
return to normal01:28:36
and of course the amplitude of that01:28:39
dopamine Peak has been varied by giving01:28:41
more money or less money in different01:28:43
scenarios nearly all the different01:28:44
derivations of the experiments that you01:28:46
could imagine that map onto the Dynamics01:28:48
of dopamine release that we've been01:28:49
talking about during this episode all01:28:52
played out exactly as one would have01:28:53
predicted based on the neural circuitry01:28:55
and the Dynamics of dopamine I recommend01:28:58
that you leverage this knowledge to make01:29:00
sure that any activities that you enjoy01:29:02
to do whether or not you enjoyed a01:29:04
little or a lot but especially if you01:29:06
enjoy it a lot that you guard and01:29:09
Protect by making sure that you don't01:29:12
start layering in or attaching reward or01:29:15
other sources of dopamine releasing01:29:18
behaviors or substances to that specific01:29:21
behavior or if you do that you don't do01:29:24
it terribly often now how often is01:29:27
terribly often we'll get to that in a01:29:28
moment but let me give you an example01:29:30
from my life just as an example but you01:29:33
will likely have and you'll know people01:29:34
that will have different examples01:29:37
I love to exercise I know to some people01:29:40
uh this might seem foreign but I love to01:29:43
exercise I love to do resistance01:29:44
training I love to run I am not one of01:29:47
those people that doesn't like the01:29:49
experience of exercising but likes the01:29:52
feeling afterwards quote unquote I hear01:29:54
that a lot I don't like to exercise but01:29:55
I love the way I feel afterwards I love01:29:57
physical training and I love the way I01:30:00
feel afterwards but I mostly love the01:30:02
feeling during I don't know why I'm01:30:04
wired that way I can't say that I'm01:30:06
somebody who likes to do hard things01:30:09
across the board there are plenty of01:30:10
difficult things in life that I dread or01:30:12
that I'm sort of meh about01:30:14
but for me hard exercise intense01:30:17
exercise of a particular kind resistance01:30:20
training and running in particular01:30:23
both give me a yum yes I love this kind01:30:26
of feeling and yes it persists for me01:30:28
quite a long while afterwards both for01:30:31
sake of the way that it changes my01:30:32
neurochemistry but also my sense of01:30:34
satisfaction but I just simply love it01:30:36
now years ago I discovered that if I01:30:38
drink01:30:39
a cup of black coffee or an Americano or01:30:42
a double espresso or some yerba mate01:30:44
that my workouts can be quite a bit more01:30:46
intense I can run further and then I01:30:49
also discovered that if I were to take a01:30:51
pre-workout energy drink or I took say01:30:55
300 milligrams of alpha GPC and 50001:30:57
milligrams of phenylethylamine and01:31:00
perhaps even 500 milligrams of01:31:02
l-tyrosine and perhaps did that01:31:04
alongside the caffeine in the Yerba mate01:31:06
then yes absolutely I really like those01:31:09
workouts I could be like a laser in01:31:10
terms of focus I could exert even more01:31:12
effort put on some music and I could01:31:15
achieve even better performance and then01:31:18
I also discovered that I could01:31:20
export that protocol of caffeine yerba01:31:23
mate and various supplements to my01:31:25
cognitive work so I was when I was01:31:26
studying or writing papers or writing01:31:28
grants or in the laboratory when I was01:31:30
doing experiments with my hands in those01:31:31
days you know cutting brain tissue and01:31:33
staining it and working really long01:31:34
hours and I discovered that all of those01:31:38
things all of those behaviors compounded01:31:40
with my love of exercise and my love of01:31:42
doing science and gave me these big01:31:45
peaks in what to me felt like even01:31:48
important experiences they felt you know01:31:50
unlike anything else they were just so01:31:53
so peak in their nature01:31:55
which was great and it did indeed01:31:57
enhance my performance however01:32:00
while it did not create a dependency for01:32:03
those different substances caffeine01:32:05
supplements Etc what I noticed was that01:32:09
in the days and sometimes weekends01:32:11
afterwards even though for much of my01:32:13
career I confess I've worked weekends as01:32:14
well but I would notice that I'd01:32:16
experience a real trough in energy I01:32:19
just would not feel that good and then01:32:21
if I kept up those behaviors01:32:23
consistently and I was consistently01:32:26
adding in these other let's just call01:32:27
them what they are dopamine releasing or01:32:30
stimulating behaviors and substances01:32:32
that my enthusiasm for physical training01:32:35
or running01:32:36
or for doing experiments actually01:32:38
started to diminish and this was really01:32:40
discouraging to me at the time because I01:32:41
started to think okay maybe I'm burnt01:32:43
out maybe I have adrenal burnout which01:32:44
by the way doesn't exist folks your01:32:46
adrenals don't burn out there is01:32:47
something called adrenal insufficiency01:32:49
syndrome you can over stimulate your01:32:51
system by way of too much adrenaline01:32:54
epinephrine and norepinephrine but01:32:56
that's a separate thing there's no such01:32:57
thing as adrenal burnout per se01:33:00
but I didn't know that so I thought gosh01:33:02
I'm really burnt out when in fact01:33:04
it's now obvious to me what I was doing01:33:06
I was combining too many dopamine01:33:08
releasing or stimulating behaviors in01:33:10
substances for things that I already01:33:13
enjoyed doing as behaviors namely01:33:15
exercise and doing experiments anything01:33:17
related to science actually01:33:20
so what this means is not to avoid01:33:24
taking things or doing things that01:33:26
amplify your amount of dopamine but to01:33:28
be very cautious about how often one01:33:30
does that and how many different01:33:32
dopamine stimulating behaviors or01:33:34
compounds one stacks01:33:37
especially in terms of taking those01:33:39
things or stacking those things01:33:41
in and around behaviors that you already01:33:44
really enjoy doing I was essentially01:33:46
just creating another version of the01:33:48
kids in nursery school or first grade01:33:50
with the gold star experiment I was01:33:53
basically just doing the exact same01:33:55
thing and when I realized that and I01:33:58
changed my relationship to those01:34:00
compounds I didn't eliminate them all01:34:01
together but I started realizing for01:34:04
instance that I didn't need to double up01:34:08
on yerba mate and coffee every workout01:34:10
sometimes I would do one sometimes I01:34:12
would do the other frankly I always do01:34:14
one or the other it's rare that I ever01:34:16
do any kind of physical training without01:34:18
some caffeine first and I do my physical01:34:19
training typically in the early part of01:34:21
the day so that's fine doesn't interfere01:34:23
with my sleep01:34:24
I might do a hike without caffeine but01:34:26
if I'm in a weight trainer I'm going to01:34:28
run I tend to drink coffee beforehand or01:34:30
have yerba mate01:34:32
or if I occasionally meaning about once01:34:35
every third sometimes every other but01:34:37
usually about every third workout I'll01:34:39
take 300 milligrams of alpha GPC maybe01:34:42
occasionally maybe every third or fourth01:34:46
workout and these are resistance01:34:48
workouts mind you not running I'll take01:34:50
500 milligrams of l-tyrosine or more01:34:52
typically 500 milligrams of phenol01:34:54
ethylamine and very very rarely maybe01:34:57
once every two or three months I might01:34:59
stack all of those things together prior01:35:00
to a workout but of course I'm always01:35:03
mindful to also include workouts or runs01:35:06
or bouts of cognitive work so that could01:35:08
be grant writing prepping for a podcast01:35:10
Etc where I don't do anything prior01:35:13
maybe just my caffeine because I have a01:35:15
baseline level of caffeine that I use01:35:16
each day to function like many people01:35:19
there's a baseline level of caffeine01:35:20
that just allows us to function if we're01:35:22
a Perpetual user of caffeine I talked a01:35:24
lot about this on the episode in01:35:25
caffeine but the key here is be cautious01:35:29
I would say be very cautious about01:35:32
stacking and layering in too many01:35:34
dopamine Peak inducing behaviors all at01:35:38
once on a regular basis the key Point01:35:40
here is if you are somebody that can01:35:42
engage in these intrinsically joyful01:35:44
activities for you these activities that01:35:46
you're really motivated to do whether or01:35:47
not it's skiing or playing music or01:35:49
dancing Etc without the need to layer in01:35:52
additional dopamine releasing mechanisms01:35:55
or compounds or activities well then I01:35:59
highly recommend you do that because01:36:00
then you are essentially making yourself01:36:02
one of those fortunate few that does not01:36:06
require additional stimuli and therefore01:36:09
can hold on to that pleasure can hold on01:36:12
to that intrinsic pleasure and01:36:13
motivation to engage in these behaviors01:36:15
over time which frankly there is no01:36:18
replacement for there is no pill or01:36:20
bottle or potion or motivational speech01:36:22
or podcast or book that can replace01:36:25
intrinsic motivation intrinsic01:36:27
motivation is perhaps the Holy Grail of01:36:31
all human Endeavors and behaviors01:36:33
because it encompasses so much of what01:36:34
brought us to this point in our species01:36:36
Evolution and also what brings each and01:36:39
every one of us closer and closer to our01:36:41
goals and if it's happening with01:36:43
enjoyment without the need to layer in01:36:44
additional tools well then you have01:36:47
really tapped into the source and when I01:36:49
say the source I don't mean it in any01:36:51
kind of mystical way I think it's quite01:36:53
clear by now that when we hear about Chi01:36:56
from Eastern medicine or we talk about01:36:58
motivation drive and pursuit in on01:37:01
Western neurobiological languages that01:37:03
relates to dopamine or we hear about the01:37:05
source maybe in my podcast episode with01:37:07
the one and only Rick Rubin incredibly01:37:10
productive music producer who's as an01:37:13
just an unbelievable track record01:37:15
in terms of creative Endeavors and he01:37:17
talks about the source we're really01:37:18
talking about the same thing which is01:37:21
this set of circuits within us that01:37:23
allow us to identify what we want and01:37:25
then lean into effort and then to do01:37:27
that in a persistent way that allows us01:37:29
to reach our goals and if we can do that01:37:31
with an intrinsic sense of pleasure well01:37:33
that is nothing short of magic but of01:37:36
course it's not magic it's science and01:37:39
of course most people are not concerned01:37:41
about trying to protect the things they01:37:44
already enjoy in order to make sure that01:37:46
they can continue to do those things and01:37:47
enjoy them most people are thinking01:37:50
about how they can engage and pursue01:37:53
things that are less than pleasureful to01:37:55
them or how they can continue to engage01:37:58
in motivated behaviors when the going01:38:00
gets tough or and this is a big one I01:38:03
hear this over and over again as a01:38:05
request to cover on this podcast how01:38:07
people can overcome procrastination what01:38:10
we're going to talk about now is how the01:38:11
Dynamics of dopamine release that you01:38:13
already are aware of plus and additional01:38:16
Dynamic that we haven't quite talked01:38:18
about can allow you to leverage dopamine01:38:21
in a way that really will bring you to01:38:24
the Holy Grail of motivation and drive01:38:27
which is01:38:29
when effort starts to become the reward01:38:32
itself in other words when friction01:38:34
becomes the reward I know that sounds01:38:37
crazy to some of you but when friction01:38:39
becomes the reward you can pass from an01:38:42
idea and a goal no matter how daunting01:38:44
to successful completion of that goal01:38:47
while experiencing what essentially will01:38:49
feel like pleasure the entire time now01:38:52
that doesn't mean it will be Bliss the01:38:54
entire time but what is very possible is01:38:57
to leverage the Dynamics of both01:38:58
dopamine Peaks and dopamine troughs01:39:01
in order to not just maintain your01:39:04
Baseline level of dopamine but to also01:39:06
pull yourself out of any kind of01:39:08
procrastination or other kind of01:39:10
overthinking trenches very quickly and01:39:13
get back into a mode of pursuit so how01:39:15
do we make effort the reward you may01:39:18
have heard about this in the context of01:39:19
so-called growth mindset growth mindset01:39:21
is the incredible Discovery and research01:39:24
papers from my colleague Dr Carol dweck01:39:28
in the psychology department at Stanford01:39:29
and there are others such as David01:39:31
Yeager at the University of Texas Austin01:39:34
who have leveraged the so-called growth01:39:36
mindset as a tool that young people and01:39:39
adults alike can use in order to get01:39:42
better at anything and the basic Contour01:39:44
of growth mindset is to adopt the01:39:47
mindset that if you can't do something01:39:50
or if you can't do it well01:39:52
that you can't do it or can't do it well01:39:55
yet it's that word yet that's really key01:39:57
and there are a number of different01:39:58
tools and techniques that people use to01:39:59
adopt growth mindset but it all starts01:40:02
with that relationship to not being able01:40:04
to do it yet now that all sounds pretty01:40:08
straightforward when you tell yourself01:40:09
but when we are in a performance context01:40:13
when we expect ourselves to be able to01:40:15
motivate or when we expect ourselves to01:40:18
be able to perform and we can't that01:40:20
often sets up a downward spiral of01:40:23
motivation because we are so used to01:40:26
being attached to the relationship01:40:28
between01:40:29
desire motivation and outcomes reward01:40:32
prediction error we want something we01:40:35
want that a in class or we want to learn01:40:37
how to dance or we want to be able to do01:40:39
this uh physical skill of another kind01:40:41
or learn a language or get the mate we01:40:44
desire or make the relationship work or01:40:47
make the business work on and on and01:40:49
then we get the outcome that we don't01:40:50
want and our confidence for lack of a01:40:54
better word drops over time oftentimes01:40:56
that leads to situations where we are01:40:59
not motivated we are a motivated it can01:41:01
even lead to situations where we are01:41:03
downright depressed01:41:05
there's also circumstances where people01:41:08
myself included of course procrastinate01:41:10
we know we should do something but01:41:12
somehow we can't get motivated we know01:41:14
that if we put in the effort we'll get01:41:15
there but we can't do it either because01:41:18
we don't like the activity or we're just01:41:19
not feeling great now we could01:41:22
be quote unquote not feeling great not01:41:23
feeling motivated because our dopamine01:41:25
Baseline is low and so I absolutely01:41:28
encourage everybody to take a look at01:41:31
themselves anytime they're in a01:41:32
motivated State take a look at the01:41:34
landscape of their life not just at that01:41:35
moment but in the preceding days and01:41:37
weeks and ask whether or not you've been01:41:40
tending to those foundational things we01:41:42
talked about earlier whether or not you01:41:43
are engaging any other of the tools that01:41:46
we talked about earlier to see if you01:41:47
can get into a motivated State however01:41:49
if all of those boxes are checked you01:41:51
answer yes I'm doing all those things01:41:52
I'm just not motivator I'm just whatever01:41:54
reason I just procrastinating I don't01:41:57
know I don't want to do it or I'm not01:41:58
feeling motivated01:41:59
well then there's a very potent set of01:42:01
tools that you can leverage to overcome01:42:03
states of lack of motivation overcome01:42:06
procrastination and indeed can help you01:42:09
deal with things like overthinking as it01:42:11
relates to procrastination and lack of01:42:12
motivation as well so the way this works01:42:15
is the following01:42:16
if you recall01:42:18
a peak in dopamine is followed by a01:42:20
trough in dopamine that trough in01:42:22
dopamine is experienced as pain or01:42:27
wanting or craving that pain that I'm01:42:30
referring to is actually a craving or a01:42:32
wanting01:42:34
and it's a craving you're wanting for a01:42:36
specific state that you would like to01:42:38
achieve that is different than the one01:42:40
that you're in you want to get out of01:42:41
that trough and as you recall from01:42:43
earlier in the episode that trough is01:42:46
the stimulus for the ongoing release of01:42:49
dopamine that provides the propeller the01:42:51
motivation to go forward and seek some01:42:54
goal okay so when we are not motivated01:42:57
when we are in a so-called a-motivated01:42:59
state01:43:00
or when we are procrastinating or when01:43:02
we just sort of can't seem to get in01:43:04
gear the key to getting out of that pain01:43:07
trough is one of two things I already01:43:09
told you earlier you can just wait you01:43:10
can wait till your motivation comes back01:43:12
and a lot of people do wait in fact they01:43:14
procrastinate they start doing other01:43:16
things that are less painful than the01:43:19
state that they happen to be in01:43:21
when they are you know trying to get01:43:22
into gear to go work out because I01:43:24
realize not everyone wants to do that or01:43:25
to study or to have a hard conversations01:43:28
whatever it is01:43:29
and what do they do they start engaging01:43:31
in activities that we and indeed they01:43:34
would not consider pleasureful01:43:36
activities they start for instance01:43:38
cleaning the house so seemingly out of01:43:40
nowhere they start engaging in these01:43:41
activities that normally are not01:43:43
intrinsically pleasureful for them01:43:44
they're not highly motivated to do them01:43:46
as a replacement for doing the very01:43:49
thing that they quote unquote need to do01:43:50
or ought to do and that they're01:43:52
procrastinating to do01:43:54
what they're essentially doing here is a01:43:56
mild type of addiction replacement in01:44:00
other words rather than be in the01:44:02
painful State and wait for it to pass01:44:04
they're doing things that give them some01:44:06
sense of accomplishment ostensibly01:44:08
to give them the sense that they're01:44:10
completing things and perhaps and I01:44:13
don't know because I'm not um in the01:44:15
psychology of knowing what other people01:44:16
are thinking01:44:17
perhaps in order to generate the01:44:19
momentum in order to get engaged enough01:44:22
or motivated enough to study or work out01:44:24
or whatever activity it is that they're01:44:25
trying to avoid through procrastination01:44:28
now what's interesting about this01:44:30
Dynamic is first of all it's extremely01:44:32
common01:44:34
and second of all a lot of people will01:44:36
use this as a tactic so that they get01:44:38
very close to the deadline to complete01:44:40
something and then they go into a sort01:44:42
of pseudo panic and then use anxiety as01:44:45
a way to leverage their mental and01:44:47
physical resources to complete that01:44:49
thing how do I know the Contour of this01:44:52
so well how do I understand the inner01:44:54
dynamics of it well part of that relates01:44:55
to my work as a neurobiologist and01:44:57
reading the papers that I'll mention to01:44:59
you in a moment but it also relates to01:45:01
the fact that I'm somebody who Waits01:45:03
quite a while right up until the sort of01:45:06
last minute possible to complete01:45:09
something for activities that I don't01:45:10
want to do something I've been working01:45:12
on my whole life in any case I'm very01:45:14
familiar with the procrastination01:45:15
process01:45:16
so how can we overcome procrastination01:45:19
well it turns out that there are01:45:20
findings from within the addiction01:45:21
literature that turn out to be very01:45:23
powerful towards leveraging our way out01:45:26
of procrastination and it has to do with01:45:28
this01:45:30
you already know because I've told you01:45:31
probably a dozen times now that the01:45:34
depth of the trough after a dopamine01:45:37
Peak is proportional to how high that01:45:39
Peak was and how steep it was how01:45:40
quickly that Peak occurred it turns out01:45:43
that not only is the depth of the trough01:45:45
proportional to that but the rate at01:45:47
which you get out of that trough01:45:50
is proportional to how steep that trough01:45:53
is01:45:54
let me explain this for you in as clear01:45:57
terms as I possibly can imagine you're01:45:59
in an a-motivated State you're just not01:46:01
feeling motivated you're procrastinating01:46:04
you may think okay the thing to do here01:46:06
is something I'll clean the house I'll01:46:09
take care of some bills I'll do01:46:10
something or I'll just wait those01:46:14
approaches as we talked about before01:46:15
generally don't work or at least don't01:46:17
work quickly or they lead you right up01:46:19
to the deadline and that's the deadline01:46:21
that forces you to get something done or01:46:22
you just don't get it done and you don't01:46:24
succeed in your goal that happens a lot01:46:26
as well01:46:27
however if you were to take that state01:46:30
of being unmotivated or procrastinating01:46:33
and actually do something that's harder01:46:36
than being in that a-motivated state01:46:40
in other words doing something that's01:46:41
more effortful even painful01:46:45
you can rebound yourself out of that01:46:47
dopamine trough much more quickly so01:46:50
what do I mean you want to put yourself01:46:51
in a state that's worse than or harder01:46:53
than the state that you're in or do01:46:55
something quote unquote more painful and01:46:56
here I want to be very clear I'll say01:46:58
this three times but I'm going to say it01:46:59
for the first time now when I say more01:47:01
painful I do not mean doing any kind of01:47:04
tissue damaging or psychologically01:47:06
damaging Behavior or anything of that01:47:09
sort that's going to render you injured01:47:11
or not well even in the short term01:47:13
that's not what I'm referring to okay01:47:15
let's just get that one out of the way01:47:16
what I'm referring to01:47:18
is the fact that for instance if you're01:47:20
feeling a motivated but you find01:47:22
yourself cleaning the house as a way to01:47:24
procrastinate you can say well cleaning01:47:26
the house is harder than sitting down01:47:28
and doing nothing but actually in that01:47:31
moment or in those moments that's not01:47:33
the case or else you wouldn't be doing01:47:35
it the reality is that the dopamine01:47:39
system works according to what feels01:47:42
hard or easy in the Moment In other01:47:44
words if you're feeling a motivated you01:47:47
need to do something and put yourself01:47:49
into a state that's harder than the01:47:52
state you're in so for instance if01:47:55
you're sitting around feeling a01:47:56
motivated or you find yourself tending01:47:58
to tasks that are irrelevant to the goal01:48:00
that you really should be focused on01:48:02
you need to put your body and mind into01:48:05
a state of discomfort01:48:07
quickly and the way to do that is to01:48:10
either engage in some tangential01:48:13
activity meaning an activity not related01:48:15
to your goal that puts your body into a01:48:17
very different state so here again I'll01:48:19
default to the obvious one which is01:48:21
something like cold shower or cold01:48:24
immersion which not only increases01:48:25
dopamine long term or over several hours01:48:28
rather but for most people is01:48:30
experienced as pain that pain causes a01:48:33
rebound out of that dopamine trough01:48:35
faster than it would occur if you had01:48:38
just stayed in that a motivated State01:48:39
and waited for it to go away or done01:48:41
something like cleaning up that for01:48:43
whatever reason felt like it required01:48:45
less friction when I say friction I mean01:48:47
limbic friction your limbic system is01:48:49
always in this dialogue with your01:48:51
forebrain and limbic friction goes two01:48:53
ways limbic friction can be you're tired01:48:55
and you don't want to do something01:48:57
and so you have to quote unquote01:48:59
motivate to do it energize yourself to01:49:01
do it or limbic friction can be that01:49:04
you're nervous and scared and anxious to01:49:06
do something and you have to calm01:49:07
yourself in order to lean forward into01:49:09
action in order to do that thing despite01:49:11
the anxiety I realize this can be a01:49:13
little bit confusing as a concept so I01:49:14
want to go into a bit more detail let's01:49:16
imagine that you or somebody else does01:49:19
not like to exercise you don't want01:49:21
exercise and you're trying to get your01:49:22
minimum of five days per week exercise01:49:25
and you're just not motivated to do it01:49:27
there are a couple different techniques01:49:29
to doing this assuming you've taken care01:49:31
of all the Baseline stuff all the01:49:33
foundational stuff we talked about01:49:34
earlier and you're just not getting in01:49:36
gear and you find yourself you know01:49:37
checking your phone or maybe you're01:49:39
tending into some tasks obviously those01:49:41
things are quote unquote easier for you01:49:43
meaning they cause less limbic friction01:49:46
than engaging in exercise01:49:50
the typical advice would be01:49:52
just exercise for one minute okay just01:49:55
get one minute of exercise or five01:49:56
minutes and then use the successful01:49:59
completion of that one or five minutes01:50:01
as a milestone that allows you to then01:50:03
move to the next Milestone and indeed01:50:05
that approach can work and it's exactly01:50:07
what I'm describing here when I say that01:50:09
you're in a state of lack of motivation01:50:11
or procrastination or both and you need01:50:15
to put yourself into a more painful not01:50:18
less painful state so what do you do you01:50:21
push up against that friction and you01:50:24
exercise for a short while and then that01:50:26
pops you out of that trough that's01:50:28
possible but for a lot of people even01:50:31
that won't be possible because they just01:50:32
can't get motivated or they do that one01:50:34
minute or five minutes and they're just01:50:35
like okay I'm still in the trough I'm01:50:37
not actually feeling that great01:50:39
in those circumstances it makes sense to01:50:42
do something that's tangential to the01:50:44
whole path that you're trying to pursue01:50:45
this goal that you're trying to pursue01:50:47
that is Believe It or Not much worse01:50:50
than just being a motivated and when I01:50:52
say worse I don't mean picking some task01:50:55
that normally you don't like to do but01:50:57
now you're willing to do I mean01:50:58
literally thinking about what would be01:51:01
worse than being in this state again01:51:03
without causing yourself tissue or01:51:05
psychological damage what would be worse01:51:07
well cold water would be worse for many01:51:10
people very cold water so the key is to01:51:12
figure out something that for lack of a01:51:15
better way to put it really sucks really01:51:17
sucks and yet is safe and by doing that01:51:20
you steepen01:51:22
the trough you steepen the slope of the01:51:25
trough which we know brings you back to01:51:28
your Baseline level of dopamine more01:51:30
quickly now for some people that will be01:51:32
deliberate cold exposure through cold01:51:34
shower ice bath and I have to tell you01:51:35
that if you're cringing as I say this01:51:37
well then there you go you now have a01:51:39
tool that you know you cringe even when01:51:42
you just think about and therefore01:51:44
represents a great tool for you so if01:51:46
I'm procrastinating to do something I01:51:48
really need to do should I just simply01:51:50
wait for that procrastination to01:51:52
evaporate no will it eventually01:51:54
evaporate maybe will a deadline01:51:56
eventually surface that will trigger me01:51:58
into an anxious or activated state that01:52:02
will allow me to complete what needs to01:52:03
be done maybe01:52:05
hopefully01:52:06
but better would be to get out of that a01:52:09
motivated state that state of01:52:10
procrastination quickly and to do so you01:52:14
need to leverage something that's01:52:15
painful so for instance I heard a01:52:17
beautiful lecture recently done by Dr01:52:19
Anna Lemke at Stanford School of01:52:21
Medicine discussing dopamine and some of01:52:23
the things in her book and some newer01:52:25
findings as well and somebody in the01:52:27
audience asked her the question does01:52:29
meditation increase dopamine now earlier01:52:32
we talked about how non-sleep deep rest01:52:33
In Yoga Nidra has been shown in the01:52:35
scientific literature to increase01:52:37
dopamine but I also mentioned earlier01:52:39
that classic forms of meditation whether01:52:41
eyes open or eyes closed so-called open01:52:43
monitoring or closed monitoring01:52:46
meditation sitting there lying there and01:52:47
focusing does not increase dopamine01:52:50
levels per se however for most people01:52:52
especially people who find it hard to01:52:55
meditate or who don't do that practice01:52:56
very often01:52:59
meditation is effortful getting into01:53:02
meditation and staying in meditation is01:53:04
effortful01:53:05
so if you find yourself in a state of01:53:07
procrastination oftentimes a brief five01:53:10
to ten minute meditation where you01:53:12
absolutely do not allow yourself to do01:53:14
anything besides close your eyes focus01:53:16
on your breath and when your mind drifts01:53:18
get back to your breath is not only01:53:20
extremely difficult and extremely01:53:22
frustrating unless you're a01:53:24
well-practiced meditator but it's often01:53:26
difficult and frustrating not just to do01:53:28
but to get into that practice and not01:53:31
just to get into that practice but to01:53:32
maintain that practice for that mere01:53:34
five to ten minutes because it's just01:53:36
not a natural state for us to be in we01:53:37
have to force ourselves so it is01:53:40
effortful in fact it qualifies as a01:53:42
basically available almost anywhere01:53:45
anytime type of effortful activity that01:53:47
if you dislike it perhaps even as much01:53:50
as some people dislike deliberate cold01:53:52
exposure well then perfect you now have01:53:55
an additional tool in your kit that you01:53:56
can use anytime you are feeling a01:53:59
motivated and procrastinating01:54:01
now there are numerous examples I could01:54:03
give and hopefully there are numerous01:54:04
examples that you're thinking about the01:54:06
key is to have a short list of about01:54:08
five different effortful AKA painful01:54:12
activities that you can employ anytime01:54:14
you're feeling a motivated or in a state01:54:16
of procrastination keeping in mind that01:54:19
the goal is not what you accomplish01:54:21
inside of that activity although it is01:54:23
important that you actually engage in01:54:24
that activity I actually have to make01:54:25
myself meditate in that five to ten01:54:28
minute little bout of effortful or01:54:30
painful activity but it's not about01:54:32
achieving an outcome it's about forcing01:54:34
your body and mind into a deeper state01:54:37
of pain and discomfort in other words01:54:39
taking yourself from that trough that01:54:41
you're already in and steepening and01:54:44
deepening that trough because in01:54:46
steepening and deepening that trough we01:54:48
know that the return from that trough to01:54:52
normal and even elevated levels of01:54:54
Baseline dopamine is going to be faster01:54:57
and more robust and in doing that you01:55:00
will quick quickly find yourself back01:55:02
into a motivated State because not only01:55:05
does it teach you that doing hard things01:55:06
is possible that's sort of more of a01:55:09
subjective cognitive learning but it01:55:11
actually Taps into the very01:55:13
neurochemical system that allows you to01:55:15
then feel motivated and capable to01:55:17
pursue the larger goal which is the01:55:19
thing you're really concerned about01:55:20
after all so as is often the case01:55:23
perhaps always the case on this podcast01:55:25
we covered a lot of material we cover01:55:28
dopamine and what it is we talked about01:55:30
the circuitry and the different kinds of01:55:32
circuitry focusing mainly on this01:55:34
mesocortical pathway that is so vitally01:55:37
important to motivation for any goals01:55:40
talked about the relationship between01:55:42
Peaks and troughs and bass lines and the01:55:44
foundational tools that allow us to set01:55:46
and maintain a healthy Baseline level of01:55:48
dopamine as well as ways to protect that01:55:50
Baseline level of dopamine and we talked01:55:53
about how to get ourselves out of states01:55:54
of procrastination01:55:56
and a Motivation by not just waiting out01:56:00
those troughs in dopamine but actually01:56:02
making those troughs and dopamine01:56:04
steeper by engaging in things that are01:56:06
effortful and things that we really01:56:08
don't want to do in those moments01:56:10
provided that those things are safe we01:56:13
can get out of those dopamine troughs01:56:15
more quickly and back to our dopamine01:56:17
baseline or even above Baseline and we01:56:20
talked about what I really view as the01:56:21
Holy Grail of motivation which is to be01:56:24
able to learn to attach reward to the01:56:26
effort process itself and to do so by01:56:29
not just understanding but also learning01:56:31
to subjectively recognize and01:56:33
somatically experience release of these01:56:35
different stressful chemicals within our01:56:37
body I realized this was a lot of01:56:39
information and yet throughout I've01:56:41
tried to highlight tools that you can01:56:43
use that range from behavioral to01:56:45
nutritional supplementation tools01:56:46
cognitive tools and keep in mind that01:56:48
all of these different segments of the01:56:50
podcast is always are time stamps so if01:56:52
you feel the need to go back and listen01:56:53
to any of these in order to get clearer01:56:55
understanding we've made that easy to do01:56:57
so so simply look for the time stamps in01:57:00
the show note captions if you're01:57:01
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interest in science01:58:46
[Music]Description:
In this episode, I explain how dopamine dynamics — meaning changes and interactions between our baseline and peak levels of dopamine drive our cravings and sense of motivation. I also explain how to leverage dopamine dynamics to overcome procrastination. I cover behavioral, cognitive, nutrition-based and supplementation-based tools to optimize baseline and peak dopamine levels to ensure a persistently motivated state. I also discuss how to boost motivation when you are in a rut, why you might not want to stack behaviors/substances that spike dopamine and how to build and maintain a “growth mindset” for pursuing goals of any kind. Dopamine is an incredibly powerful neuromodulator involved in basic functions (e.g., hunger, romantic attraction, etc.) and feats of cognitive and physical performance; by understanding the dynamics of dopamine, listeners ought to be better positioned to overcome procrastination, maintain motivation, and improve confidence. Thank you to our sponsors AG1 (Athletic Greens): https://athleticgreens.com/huberman Helix Sleep: https://go.helixsleep.com/audio-partner/ WHOOP: https://join.whoop.com/huberman ROKA: https://roka.com/huberman InsideTracker: https://info.insidetracker.com/huberman Supplements from Momentous https://www.livemomentous.com/huberman Social & Website Instagram: https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser Twitter: https://twitter.com/hubermanlab Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-huberman Website: https://www.hubermanlab.com/ Newsletter: https://www.hubermanlab.com/newsletter Articles Pain modulates dopamine neurons via a spinal–parabrachial–mesencephalic circuit: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-021-00903-8?error=cookies_not_supported&code=0e31ffc0-5550-4d68-bf74-1ee247e2e3b7 Dopamine, Updated: Reward Prediction Error and Beyond: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0959438820301501?via%3Dihub Human physiological responses to immersion into water of different temperatures: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s004210050065?noAccess=true&error=cookies_not_supported&code=30e6225d-8103-4ec9-b52a-c883fba667eb Effect of tyrosine on cognitive function and blood pressure under stress: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0361923094902003?via%3Dihub Tyrosine Improves Working Memory in a Multitasking Environment: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0091305799000945?via%3Dihub Books Dopamine Nation: Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence: https://www.amazon.com/Dopamine-Nation-Finding-Balance-Indulgence/dp/152474672X?_encoding=UTF8 Other Resources Non-Sleep Deep Rest (NSDR): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPNW_gerXa4P6-7EC4twzLBjR22rQYk3u Timestamps 00:00:00 Dopamine 00:02:32 Sponsors: Helix Sleep, WHOOP, ROKA, Momentous 00:06:27 Dopamine Brain Circuits 00:14:53 Goals & Addiction 00:17:13 Dopamine Dynamics, “Wave Pool” analogy 00:20:28 Craving, Motivation, Pursuit & Reward Prediction Error 00:28:26 Sponsor: AG1 (Athletic Greens) 00:29:40 Feedback Cues & Reward Contingent Learning, “Scoreboard” 00:37:40 Addiction; Pleasure & Pain Imbalance 00:44:55 Dopamine Release & Addictive Substances/Behaviors 00:50:43 Addiction Recovery, Binding Behaviors 00:53:25 Tools: Maintain Baseline Dopamine Levels 01:02:08 Sponsor: InsideTracker 01:03:26 Tool: Deliberate Cold Exposure & Dopamine 01:09:38 Prescriptions & Supplementation: L-Tyrosine, Mucuna Pruriens 01:18:58 Dopamine Trough Recovery, Postpartum Depression 01:23:31 Dopamine Dynamics, “Dopamine Stacking”; Intrinsic Motivation 01:38:10 Making Effort the Reward, Growth Mindset 01:41:49 Tool: Overcome Procrastination 01:52:16 Tool: Meditation & Procrastination 01:57:01 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube Feedback, Spotify & Apple Reviews, Sponsors, Momentous, Neural Network Newsletter, Social Media Title Card Photo Credit: Mike Blabac - https://www.blabacphoto.com/ The Huberman Lab podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical advice, and no doctor/patient relationship is formed. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from this podcast is at the user’s own risk. The content of this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Users should not disregard or delay in obtaining medical advice for any medical condition they may have and should seek the assistance of their health care professionals for any such conditions.
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