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00:00:00
franck ferrand on europe 1 at the heart of
00:00:04
history and franck ferrand takes us
00:00:06
to the heart of ancient Egypt this
00:00:08
afternoon hello france hello
00:00:09
ombeline hello everyone we are
00:00:11
indeed going to discuss the incredible reign of a
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pharaoh who alone believed I could
00:00:16
overthrow centuries of millennia of
00:00:19
tradition to talk to us about Akhenaten
00:00:22
I invited the most modern and
00:00:24
kindest of our pharaohs Gilbert Sinoué
00:00:27
in person was then at the end of
00:00:28
the show to answer the question
00:00:30
in two brands who would like to
00:00:31
know the origins of the
00:00:32
typewriter but I am willing to respond to
00:00:34
Marthe but I am not even sure
00:00:35
that our youngest listeners
00:00:37
still buying what an
00:00:38
ace typewriter was does not rejuvenate us, what do you want
00:00:40
trifles that all this on the scale
00:00:42
of a history like that of Egypt
00:00:55
at the heart of history
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[Music]
00:01:02
[Music]
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what is most famous about
00:01:14
Akhenaten is his wife Nefertiti
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whose very admirable were
00:01:19
immortalized by a famous bust from the
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Berlin Museum problem if we are to
00:01:24
believe Henri Stierlin who is an
00:01:26
art historian from Alexandria if we are to
00:01:29
believe this bust would be a fake it would have
00:01:32
been made not in the 14th century before
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our era but well into the 20th century
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after in 1912 imagine yourself under the
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leadership of a German archaeologist
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Borchardt
00:01:43
the archaeologist apparently wanted to make
00:01:45
a portrait of the queen of whom we have around
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ten portraits also one
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on various bas relief or in relief
00:01:52
moreover he wanted to represent her
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wearing the famous 112 had the
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crown of the two kingdoms which we
00:01:58
knew was adorned he also wanted
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with old pigments
00:02:01
discovered during excavations to carry out
00:02:03
polychromy tests
00:02:06
it turns out that during a
00:02:08
princely visit there are Saxon sovereigns
00:02:10
who come to visit the
00:02:12
excavation site who falls in admiration
00:02:14
before this bust on December 6, 1912
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he believes that the bust is authentic
00:02:20
everyone applauds admires etc and
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the archaeologist n 'would not have had the courage
00:02:24
to ridicule his hosts according to
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the historian sir this shot one
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tells us that the bust does not have a left-handed eye
00:02:32
was never prepared to receive it
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it is an insult for an Egyptian ancient
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according to whom the statue the person
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itself shoulders moreover are
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cut vertically as we have done
00:02:41
since the middle of the 19th century while
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the Egyptians cut the shoulders horizontally
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we accentuated the features
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in a way which recalls the style of
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art nouveau new deal
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art historian according to whom we cannot
00:02:54
scientifically date the piece because it
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is made of stone covered with stucco the
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pigments which can be dated are
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truly old that no one
00:03:02
ever has doubted,
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we do not put questionable works in our windows
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for the approximately
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seven hundred thousand visitors that we
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receive each year reacted the
00:03:11
director of the Egyptian Museum of Berlin
00:03:13
Dietrich Wild Doug who obviously
00:03:15
completely refutes the conclusions of this shot
00:03:19
so while waiting for those to come back
00:03:21
with Gilbert Sinoé on this affair of the
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bust of Nefertiti
00:03:26
let me introduce you to her husband one
00:03:28
of the most fascinating characters in
00:03:30
the history of Egypt who nevertheless is
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not miserly in great
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figure the king brings to the t4 that the Greeks
00:03:38
called amenhotep iv and who will soon
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give himself the name
00:03:43
of akhenaton
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akhenaton the worshiper of aton or if we
00:03:47
want a very literal translation
00:03:48
the effective spirit of aton this pharaoh n
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continues to fuel the debate,
00:03:54
we know that the Catholic writer Daniel
00:03:56
Rops saw in him the first
00:03:57
instigator of monotheism
00:03:59
even if today this is no longer the
00:04:01
general opinion of archaeologists but it is the
00:04:03
big question. What is
00:04:04
most fascinating of course is that
00:04:06
this man invented the word nautical and
00:04:08
even is he in some way
00:04:09
a sort of prophet who would have been
00:04:11
linked to the divinity you will admit that
00:04:14
the question is quite extraordinary
00:04:17
akhenaton is in any case the best known
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of the pharaohs of a flagship dynasty the 18th
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so you should know that before
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the installation of this dynasty of
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foreigners the hyksos had
00:04:31
gradually infiltrated the workings of
00:04:33
the Egyptian administration for
00:04:34
several generations and finally they
00:04:36
installed their own royalty around
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1710 BC this is how
00:04:41
the strange 15th dynasty was created so who
00:04:44
are these foreigners who came to gradually take
00:04:46
possession of the delta we
00:04:48
generally consider them to come from
00:04:50
Bedouin tribes originally from a region
00:04:51
that the Egyptians call redd here,
00:04:53
that is to say roughly Syria Palestine,
00:04:55
he also worships a certain number of
00:04:58
gods from the Egyptian pantheon, starting
00:05:00
with god 7,
00:05:01
he seizes their own sons in 16 150
00:05:04
only from this date so
00:05:06
middle of the 17th century BC
00:05:08
further south a new dynasty of
00:05:10
pharaoh emerges from the mists of
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history the 17th you will say between
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the 15th and
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17th or and the 16th we will talk about it the
00:05:18
16th is a small dynasty which reigns
00:05:19
only over a very small part of
00:05:21
Egyptian territory
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the 17th therefore composed of local Egyptians
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will enter into struggle against the Hyksos
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the new center of this royalty is
00:05:31
still only a small city ​​but then
00:05:33
called an extraordinary destiny
00:05:35
the city of thebes iii sovereign are
00:05:38
associated with this fight against the north
00:05:41
it is ken rées who engage the fight in the
00:05:44
military sense of the term against the
00:05:45
sovereign hyksos his successor kamoze
00:05:48
etc and the last sovereign of the 17th
00:05:49
dynasty continues the fight started by
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his canes between he succeeds in
00:05:54
approaching the capital of the hyksos but
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without seizing it and it is his brother
00:05:57
amosis who will inaugurate the 18th
00:06:00
dynasty from the 11th year of his reign
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he resumes the fight against the hyksos
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one of his first gestures is to
00:06:07
restore the temple of the same son he will
00:06:10
restore order in
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the administration we will simply say
00:06:12
that he is in the process of
00:06:14
restoring royalty
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over all of the borders of the double
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country he creates the bases of a new
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empire
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and then there is the whole succession
00:06:23
of the great sovereigns of the 18th
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dynasty the best known perhaps with
00:06:27
the oars and sid
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of course all mosys first
00:06:30
conquering king all moses buzz who is a
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somewhat dim king but whose wife
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Hatshepsut will become the only
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full-fledged female pharaoh in
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the entire history of Egypt an
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extraordinary character she will for a very
00:06:42
long time prevent her nephew from becoming
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the lighthouse in May when all but siiii
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hole all mosys 3 should I say takes
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power it's for good we
00:06:51
nickname him the pharaohs of Egypt the bar
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including the napoleon of Egypt it is he
00:06:55
who wins the victory of cadets ch in
00:06:58
year 42 of his reign he died eleven years
00:07:01
later, he was succeeded by 3 pharaohs, the
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third of whom brought to t3 is considered
00:07:06
as the one who will have the most
00:07:08
flourishing reign perhaps of the dynasty
00:07:10
that's for sure but perhaps even of
00:07:12
the entire history of Egypt
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according to reign of 38 years will mark
00:07:17
the apogee in some way of this
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extraordinary pharaonic civilization
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it is with his wife one of his wives
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queen tiyi calm is rated 3 has therefore a
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son brings to t4 it is him who
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interests us saw I did all this long
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development to explain to you who
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is the one who will soon be called
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Tutankhamun and who will blow up everything
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by making a new sun rise an
00:07:41
extract from the opera Romeo Juliet by
00:07:43
Gounod Roberto Alagna on Europe 1 with
00:07:45
rise sun we will be back
00:07:47
in a moment in the heart of
00:07:48
ancient egypt with you franck ferrand to
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continue talking brings to t4 future
00:07:52
king akhenaton the story on europe 1
00:07:57
it's with franck ferrand
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franck ferrand 2 p.m. 3 p.m. on europe 1 the
00:08:04
famous pharaoh of the 18th dynasty
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akhenaton is at the heart of the story and
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we come back with you providing you with the
00:08:09
beginning of the reign of the one who is
00:08:11
still called brings the goal it is still a
00:08:13
story which is old of 34 centuries
00:08:15
you imagined it still fascinating
00:08:18
we understand that we cannot
00:08:20
always have very great precision
00:08:21
on the dates for example think
00:08:23
in particular that it is during the fourth
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or the fifth year of the lady's reign
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is noted 4 that
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a certain number of in-
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depth changes begin to appear in society at court
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in the very administration of the empire the
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pharaoh seems to have given entirely to the
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cult of Amon at first the
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protector beyond the dynasty and the
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king will substitute for this cult that
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of aton this divinity of the solar disk
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clearly manifest twenty
00:08:58
commanders very visible of course
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since it is from him that everything
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proceeds hamon is the hidden god and on
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well it is the solar god the break will
00:09:08
be great
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with religious tradition will be
00:09:11
great with the upstream clergy who at
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the time was very powerful
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we will come back to this later
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obviously with Gilbert Sinoué because
00:09:19
this rise is at the very heart of all
00:09:21
this affair it is the moment when we are going to
00:09:23
install a new capital which will
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become the capital of aten akhenaton we
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draw a line under thebes on carnac on
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the gigantic temple dedicated to the
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hidden god the pharaoh therefore prefers to found
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this new cited on the current site
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of Amarna el Amarna this is why we
00:09:44
talk about the
00:09:46
Amarna revolution this is why to visit
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today the remains the vestiges of
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this extraordinary city that came out of nothing
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it we must go to tell el amarna then
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philippe bailet explains to us that at ton was
00:10:00
still not a new god
00:10:02
in Egyptian religion and from the
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reign of thoutmosis the first for example
00:10:07
we observe a whole cult of atton which is
00:10:11
understood as a subtle cosmic energy
00:10:13
a creative power which is
00:10:17
not reduced to the external form of the
00:10:18
sun although this solar disk as it
00:10:21
shows itself at the time of sunset I
00:10:23
am going this magnificent sure in these
00:10:24
eastern countries a this this great care and
00:10:26
red or almost pink which descends like
00:10:29
that on the horizon even if we have
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the impression of being able to touch it
00:10:32
nevertheless of course in all its
00:10:35
glory in all of this its purity
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it is the manifestation of a god who
00:10:40
replaces a certain way all the
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others and this is where the
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question arises of the personal role played by
00:10:47
Akhenaten in this affair we are
00:10:51
in the presence of a mystical pharaoh who presents himself
00:10:54
as the son of eternity
00:10:55
emerging from the sun and who says in
00:10:58
personal relationship in direct relationship
00:11:01
with with the new god as
00:11:04
François Damages writes on the site
00:11:05
the god was legally and
00:11:07
metaphysically the heir the
00:11:09
lieutenant of the unique creator
00:11:11
he is even the only one who can
00:11:13
truly worship his god because this one
00:11:15
informed himself alone of his designs and his
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power undoubtedly during
00:11:20
the initial experience which fixed the fate
00:11:22
of the reign there is therefore indeed in this
00:11:24
affair if we are to believe in any case a
00:11:25
certain number of exegetes of the texts
00:11:28
ancients there is indeed what must be
00:11:29
called a revelation
00:11:31
with the awareness by this
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pharaoh of the primacy of a god who
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comes literally ball
00:11:37
have the traditional pantheon Egyptian pantheon
00:11:41
there is a prayer of Akhenaten odious
00:11:45
at on that we have preserved 1 thanks to
00:11:49
all its assets its bas-reliefs to all
00:11:51
and hieroglyphs of one on the on the site
00:11:53
of tell el amarna which tells us you are
00:11:55
in my heart is no other
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knows you except your son Akhenaten in
00:12:00
your drawings you gave him wisdom
00:12:03
and by your power the beings are in
00:12:05
your hand you realize nevertheless it
00:12:07
makes you think a lot of other texts
00:12:09
infinitely more recent to texts of
00:12:13
monotheistic religions which of course
00:12:14
it is by you too continues the prayer
00:12:17
of akhenaten that beauty what we feel is
00:12:19
contemplated until you
00:12:22
disappear in the west and everything that
00:12:24
is on earth it is you who made it
00:12:27
rise for your child the one who was born
00:12:30
from tea members the king living in the
00:12:33
truth you understand why a
00:12:35
certain number of thinkers and in particular
00:12:37
it is true of the Christian exegetes of the
00:12:39
end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century
00:12:41
wanted to see in texts like this one
00:12:43
a form of the advent of a
00:12:46
monotheism which surprises us of
00:12:48
course 34 centuries ago you
00:12:51
imagine that then we imagine how much the
00:12:54
decisions of Akhenaten upset the
00:12:57
Egyptian society without religion and we
00:13:00
are a god for whom we do not draw
00:13:03
up status the symbol it represents
00:13:04
is formed of a long ray of light which
00:13:07
ends in hands and above all
00:13:09
you will have understood it the only one who serves
00:13:12
as intermediaries with the benefits of
00:13:14
such a god the only one who can be the
00:13:16
receptacle of prayers in a way
00:13:19
7 Akhenaten himself who therefore introduces
00:13:22
a very great revolution in the
00:13:24
minds but also in the
00:13:26
usual forms of religious practice
00:13:27
since in doing so he puts aside the
00:13:31
traditional clergy attached in
00:13:34
ancient Egypt to all the gods of the
00:13:36
pantheon and in particular the most powerful
00:13:38
of these clergy,
00:13:40
the one who was considered the
00:13:41
concentration of the wealth of the
00:13:43
power of the power of Egypt itself, the
00:13:46
clergy from upstream who, you can
00:13:48
imagine, certainly did not say their last
00:13:49
word,
00:13:52
the pharaoh Akhenaten is at the heart of
00:13:54
the story and at any time you can
00:13:55
react to this show ask your
00:13:57
questions via twitter that of franck
00:13:59
ferrand at the hashtag gave in to ge on the
00:14:01
facebook page of the show or by email
00:14:03
at point.fr we will find you in a
00:14:05
moment franck ferrand for the rest of
00:14:06
your story on the reign of akhenaton
00:14:09
ratin
00:14:11
at the heart of history
00:14:13
franck ferrand 2 p.m. 3 p.m. on europe 1 the
00:14:17
heretic pharaoh according to the clergy of a
00:14:19
month that is nathan is at the heart of
00:14:20
the history and we come back with you
00:14:22
Franck Ferrand on this revolution in
00:14:23
religious practice established by
00:14:25
Canal and yes and another
00:14:27
very very important revolution and which he asks
00:14:29
affects us perhaps even more
00:14:30
it is the artistic revolution
00:14:32
which accompanies this all these big
00:14:34
changes because in the artistic field
00:14:37
we suddenly break in a few months
00:14:40
with this tradition of immutable ira tic art
00:14:43
you know it's good well you
00:14:45
know what the Egyptians look like
00:14:46
on the walls of
00:14:49
full time of course and of course 'one shot
00:14:50
with akhenaton we see the human being
00:14:54
represented with much more than 2
00:14:56
natural realism is what is
00:14:59
quite surprising is that pharaoh his
00:15:01
wife his daughters are represented in
00:15:04
daily scenes it is the very
00:15:06
first time then obviously on the
00:15:08
walls of temples etc. we had already
00:15:10
for five or six dynasty we had
00:15:11
the habit of representing scenes of
00:15:13
daily life but they were
00:15:15
practical scenes if I may say all at
00:15:16
once we put intensity we put
00:15:18
emotion in the scenes it seems
00:15:20
incredible
00:15:21
and then the bodies and faces
00:15:23
are literally distorted see what
00:15:27
akhenaton looks like with his big lips with
00:15:29
his chin 2 2 ap
00:15:30
afflicted with a tism product obvious
00:15:32
with this completely dolly skull caused
00:15:35
fall which made a certain number
00:15:37
of specialists and in particular a
00:15:40
certain number of
00:15:41
American scientists say that he was affected by such and
00:15:43
such and such syndrome
00:15:44
we wanted to adorn the poor akhenaton
00:15:47
with all the diseases of the earth to
00:15:49
try to explain in particular the 5 he has
00:15:51
because he purposely truly like a
00:15:53
woman or his hips which are
00:15:55
feminine angels it seems to me that we are
00:15:57
completely on the wrong track between us
00:15:59
and that is surely not not in the
00:16:01
physiology and in the state of health
00:16:03
of akhenaton that we must look for
00:16:05
the origins of these
00:16:07
morphological transformations we must look for them
00:16:10
in an artistic desire to
00:16:12
paint pharaoh in the guise of a
00:16:15
man woman
00:16:16
there are many an androgynous dimension in
00:16:19
the way he exercises power
00:16:21
and this will manifest itself more and more as we
00:16:23
advance in the reign there
00:16:25
remains a separation a
00:16:27
clear break with nefertiti so here again the
00:16:31
historians have asked a lot of
00:16:32
questions where
00:16:35
this rupture comes from is what we don't know
00:16:40
but some say that Nefertiti
00:16:42
would have become aware of all the
00:16:44
dangers that the Amarna revolution
00:16:46
posed to Egyptian society
00:16:48
that she would therefore have in a way
00:16:50
she herself withdrew from the project she
00:16:53
would have left or on the contrary
00:16:55
that Akhenaten would have finally decided to make a
00:16:57
pact with a certain number
00:17:00
of the powers upstream the
00:17:01
classical powers of Egypt and that Queen
00:17:04
Nefertiti would have tensing on the contrary on
00:17:06
the revolution
00:17:07
it would itself be isolated from the one who
00:17:10
called himself the creator god these
00:17:12
are possibilities
00:17:13
akhenaton in any case gives the order to
00:17:15
destroy the statutes ladies have they
00:17:17
destroyed the stelae which bears the name from
00:17:19
the rival lesigne
00:17:21
yesterday to the glee glee fiq which is used to write
00:17:24
the word finally the term the gods or
00:17:27
plural only hieroglyphs and
00:17:29
literally remove from the
00:17:31
Egyptian alphabet you understand why
00:17:32
some have spoken from there of a
00:17:34
monotheism to totti antonio
00:17:38
by elsewhere after the separation with
00:17:41
nefertiti akhenaton will practice the rite
00:17:45
of korea jans with a young man
00:17:49
called cmn squares and who will become
00:17:51
a sort of two doubles of the pharaoh
00:17:54
to the point even that we could think that there
00:17:56
was a homosexual relationship a
00:17:58
relationship of very strong passion between the
00:18:01
pharaoh akhenaton and even knows himself square
00:18:05
who will also be buried in the same
00:18:07
tomb as the pharaoh is then
00:18:10
there are very surprising formulations
00:18:12
since in some way on certain
00:18:14
texts
00:18:15
akhenaton is presented as the wife
00:18:17
of Semen Carré while he himself is, as
00:18:19
you will have understood, not only a
00:18:20
man but he is the father of
00:18:22
descendants. All this is quite astonishing of
00:18:25
course there is nothing more
00:18:27
fascinating in the history of Egypt
00:18:28
you imagine this female king who
00:18:31
would in some way be the counterpart of
00:18:33
the male king who was Hatshepsut a few
00:18:35
generations earlier it's quite it's
00:18:37
quite astonishing so what did
00:18:40
Akhenaten die of why did he disappeared so quickly
00:18:43
and so young at the age of 30 we know
00:18:45
that moreover the city which had
00:18:47
put her in cayla which had brought her out of the
00:18:49
ground will be literally devastated and wiped
00:18:53
off the map I must tell you that this
00:18:56
city had been built extremely quickly
00:18:58
in a single throw and using
00:19:00
materials infinitely less solid than
00:19:02
those to which we had been accustomed in
00:19:04
Egypt since it is not a question of these
00:19:06
usual large blocks of stone it is
00:19:08
essentially a question of facing of brick
00:19:11
to their circles the temple was
00:19:13
quite extraordinary with a nave 800
00:19:15
meters long you imagine it was
00:19:17
something grandiose
00:19:18
we had dazzling frescoes
00:19:21
accounts which were lost of course
00:19:22
not only at the time of the
00:19:24
destruction of the city itself but
00:19:25
then in the abandonment and in the
00:19:27
dereliction where we left where we
00:19:29
left the centuries
00:19:31
what ultimately remains of this
00:19:33
revolution of the pharaoh god Akhenaten there
00:19:36
remain texts there remains a sort of
00:19:39
primacy monotheists sorry to come back to it
00:19:41
but I intend to ask the
00:19:43
question in a moment to Gilbert
00:19:44
Sinoué there remain some quite
00:19:47
extraordinary poems which still move us
00:19:48
the beautiful prince the chosen one of the sun
00:19:51
king of upper and lower Egypt living
00:19:54
in universal harmony lord of the
00:19:56
double country beautiful child of the living to your
00:19:59
whose name will remain forever
00:20:04
hello gilbert sinoué I hope you do
00:20:07
not blame me for having you just
00:20:09
now after the pharaohs have not summer it's
00:20:12
accepting the brand it's a lot
00:20:13
of honor of great respect as you
00:20:15
can imagine I have a lot of
00:20:16
questions to ask you well
00:20:19
history on europe 1 it's with franck
00:20:23
ferrand [Music]
00:20:25
franck ferrand 2 p.m. 3 p.m. on europe 1
00:20:31
[Music]
00:20:52
[Music]
00:20:55
an extract from the soundtrack of the
00:20:56
animated film the prince of egypt
00:20:58
music by hans zimmer surrenders by
00:21:01
the pharaoh akhenaton is at the heart of
00:21:03
the story you receive franck ferrand
00:21:05
the writer gilbert sinoué height of
00:21:07
akhenaton the god curses collection
00:21:09
folio gallimard
00:21:10
and yes it is indeed it is of
00:21:12
course that he was god by his function as
00:21:14
pharaohs but he was also perhaps
00:21:16
god by the prophetic dimension
00:21:19
which attached to his destiny as quite
00:21:21
extraordinary that gilbert sinoé
00:21:25
could in a certain way akhenaton be considered as
00:21:27
one of the first prophets it is a
00:21:29
question which arises in my humble opinion
00:21:32
it is obvious who invented them or
00:21:35
create monotheism the fate this
00:21:36
contemporary of the term
00:21:38
today the Egyptologists refuse
00:21:39
this idea very far we go very far
00:21:41
but who gave primacy to 1 d one
00:21:45
of the gods I hold it is obvious
00:21:47
and there this primacy with flowers monotheism
00:21:51
indeed we must also know that
00:21:53
they are a man who was of such
00:21:56
humanity of intellectual humanism that
00:21:59
contrary to what one can imagine he
00:22:02
never wanted to impose his god by force
00:22:06
on us the proof being that he
00:22:08
left well if he wanted to impose
00:22:11
absolute nonsense monotheism he would have
00:22:13
fought a pharaoh who left his
00:22:16
capital and created another to
00:22:18
go to all alone worshiped a single god
00:22:20
it's the most difficult story ordinary like
00:22:23
so forgive me the expression they
00:22:25
leave them alone he leaves you want to
00:22:28
continue adored your little gods et
00:22:30
cetera totain unless and the others you
00:22:33
can do it and in fact while
00:22:36
he was in telerman at the Egypt continues
00:22:38
to live its life
00:22:39
it's stupid it's also an example but
00:22:42
it's actually the idea of ​​the
00:22:44
primacy of one god over others is
00:22:47
very close to monotheism you
00:22:48
cited earlier the prayer to atton we
00:22:51
can't help but find
00:22:53
meaning rhymes with some with
00:22:55
our father and of course quite simply
00:22:57
there is indeed I you quite
00:22:58
extraordinary in there so we say
00:23:00
that Moses could have been in some
00:23:01
way the and the
00:23:03
the point of junction with the
00:23:05
religions of the book is a theory we
00:23:09
imagined that well it is obvious that the
00:23:11
end of Akhenaten and surely bloody
00:23:14
you should know that at a given moment it
00:23:18
was not only the priests of Amon
00:23:19
who were mad with rage and if he was mad
00:23:21
with rage it was because we had touched them in
00:23:24
the most sacred plane, that is to say
00:23:26
money, but of course since all the
00:23:28
doubts the offerers collected the taxes
00:23:30
invoking enormous bending of
00:23:32
the fortune priests of Amon were huge
00:23:34
from the moment
00:23:35
he told them no no now it's
00:23:37
yours there is a big anger and the
00:23:40
generals began to be born food rage
00:23:42
among others would like to talk about the
00:23:45
succession if you want moreover we
00:23:46
are going to talk in a moment about of course
00:23:48
golden but hey we are going to talk about these same
00:23:50
because and we are going to talk of course about
00:23:52
nefertiti all these characters the art
00:23:54
enti all these characters from the reign
00:23:56
of akhenaton
00:23:57
but rule have perhaps be if you want
00:23:58
this religious dimension 1 that's
00:24:00
it then for you spoke moses
00:24:02
earlier indeed we think
00:24:03
that after the fall of telagh mannala
00:24:06
marnac entire this city found itself
00:24:08
threatened we felt that it was a party and at the
00:24:10
end it seems that some priests
00:24:12
of the faithful of Aton fled
00:24:16
and among whom there would have been a
00:24:18
certain mosys mozy which
00:24:21
simply means son 2 by mozy it is used for
00:24:24
all mozilla and he would have fled to
00:24:27
East Sinai and there he would have taken with
00:24:29
them the Egyptian traditions, that is to
00:24:31
say among other things circumcision which
00:24:33
date from 3500 years before Jesus Christ and
00:24:36
obviously saw the story of the god who is
00:24:38
not revealed who it has no name and we
00:24:41
don't appear and it's very close
00:24:42
to Judaism indeed but it remains
00:24:44
a theory I wouldn't want to suddenly
00:24:46
the publishers start attacking us
00:24:48
for days yes of course it always has to be
00:24:50
done but you know we have
00:24:51
listeners 1:10 p.m. princes and saints
00:24:53
characterize this program we
00:24:55
talk about events that
00:24:57
took place 34 or almost 35 centuries ago
00:24:59
so obviously all of this is always
00:25:01
subject to doubt we have very little information
00:25:03
on the beginnings and the end of the reign
00:25:05
of akhenaton it must be said about the
00:25:07
beginnings we think that he co-reigned with
00:25:10
his father brings to t3 during
00:25:13
sandy your enough that then we do not know
00:25:14
in fact there could have been a chore
00:25:16
jans already with his own father it's a
00:25:18
possibility but we haven't then
00:25:20
really it's a sarong which only asks
00:25:22
questions has no answers we have it
00:25:24
we are in the dark we know that he hasn't
00:25:26
denied it for a long time seen 12 years old then he
00:25:28
reigns in all 18 years and the revolution
00:25:30
lasts 12 13 so it was not
00:25:32
enormous
00:25:34
that being not allows months this
00:25:36
parenthesis to evoke according to Nefertiti the
00:25:38
bust saying that finally the
00:25:41
Egyptologist in question which was a
00:25:42
duplicate a little eh you have to invest the street
00:25:44
because he was one-eyed and poor
00:25:47
Nefertiti but in fact there are only two
00:25:49
explanations the first is that the
00:25:53
Djibouti sculptor Metz did not have time to
00:25:56
finish it because it was the fall of the
00:25:57
city it's a theory is the second more
00:26:01
romantic is that he was madly in
00:26:02
love with Nefertiti and that did not respond
00:26:05
to his advances so he left good
00:26:07
old man to take revenge
00:26:08
so there are explanations see
00:26:10
the authenticity of the bust I believe
00:26:11
deeply attentive and musk
00:26:13
but I want to say for them to be
00:26:15
honest that certain art historians
00:26:17
and not the least deeply believe in
00:26:19
100 false characters
00:26:22
we are not going to enter into this debate so I
00:26:25
said that about the beginning of the reign
00:26:26
we do not know much and then
00:26:28
where is the greatest mystery perhaps
00:26:30
it is regarding the end of the
00:26:32
reign how did he die at 30 years old when even this
00:26:35
young pharaoh of what dies -it is an
00:26:37
illness is it murdered is
00:26:39
what we can know about it
00:26:40
you have your seekers the impossibility
00:26:43
of an illness I am not immersed padi
00:26:45
the impossibility is that I am not there I did
00:26:46
n't believe personally I think he was
00:26:48
suffering I believe that his androgynous physique
00:26:51
is an authentic origin in this
00:26:54
thread there is there is a syndrome
00:26:56
called Barack syndrome and that
00:26:58
Simon is heavyset which is very close to
00:27:01
such told me that he had the other
00:27:03
illnesses are completely eliminated will be
00:27:04
made of him a support without water he had
00:27:06
six children
00:27:07
it is very probable that he was struck
00:27:10
by a hormonal syndrome and his
00:27:14
representation is where we see completely joined
00:27:17
he wanted to be presented to them
00:27:19
effectively as he was and women
00:27:22
men and women and did not want to be
00:27:25
presented to them as ramses ii /
00:27:26
chariot in the process of defeating the legacies the
00:27:28
enemies they were for
00:27:30
total opening transparency as we say
00:27:33
nowadays is the proof being known that
00:27:35
it is the first pharand who leaves his
00:27:37
temples without you there is no where there is
00:27:40
no link an opening towards the sky
00:27:42
there also an element important is the
00:27:44
fact of letting oneself be represented with one's
00:27:47
wife and children in
00:27:49
scenes of daily life, it is also
00:27:51
a need for transparency and we
00:27:53
mentioned the work earlier about the
00:27:55
egg-shaped skulls
00:27:56
it is unfortunately possible that he was
00:27:57
hydrocephalus he would have died
00:27:59
immediately there is another quite
00:28:01
interesting theory and which is somewhat similar to
00:28:03
biblical genesis is that at the beginning of the
00:28:06
world at the beginning of creation as in
00:28:08
the Bible it it was water a bubbling nothing
00:28:12
else we called it the number and from
00:28:15
there a sort of chaos olca original
00:28:17
chaos and from the hall the gods
00:28:19
appeared placed on a hill n 9 and
00:28:24
expands to eeklo and there the sun came out
00:28:27
so we really have the symbol of the
00:28:30
beginning of the world
00:28:32
the egg the egg which so perhaps there he
00:28:36
asked the artisans to present to them
00:28:38
debré his wife fertilizes them children
00:28:40
with this skull in the shape of an egg which
00:28:43
symbolizes the beginning of the world and it is a
00:28:46
symbolism which is inscribed in a
00:28:48
very living form
00:28:49
I will never forget the impression
00:28:53
that the great bust of everything made on me in the
00:28:56
case of Tutankhamun say a motor as much
00:28:58
of all time as before but from
00:29:00
akhenaton sorry when we go up
00:29:02
don't know if it's still the case
00:29:03
today to tell you the truth but at the
00:29:05
Louvre museum in the large flight
00:29:07
of stairs which leads to the department
00:29:09
of Egypt you have 7 this gigantic
00:29:12
bust with Akhenaten looking at you
00:29:15
going up the steps his books he has
00:29:17
a presence he has a strength to
00:29:20
which we can hardly compare
00:29:22
anything in form is there so
00:29:23
we see a little of what this pharaoh looks like
00:29:26
his time the revolution which implemented it,
00:29:29
let us perhaps, if you wish, come
00:29:31
to those who surrounded him, starting with
00:29:33
the sublime Nefertiti the story on
00:29:37
Europe 1 it is with Franck Ferrand
00:29:41
Franck Ferrand 2 p.m. 3 p.m. on Europe 1 on
00:29:45
pharaoh akhenaton is at the heart of
00:29:46
the story you receive franck ferrand
00:29:48
the writer gilbert sinoué height of
00:29:49
akhenaton the god curses at
00:29:51
gallimard also author of the book the
00:29:53
five quarters of the moon published
00:29:55
last February by flammarion and you
00:29:57
were telling me just now gilbert sinoué
00:29:58
that it is necessary to insist on the
00:30:01
very location of this city what the
00:30:03
current site of tell el amarna therefore of this
00:30:05
city of akhenaton the city date were
00:30:08
built on the indications on the
00:30:10
d at the request on the orders let's say it
00:30:13
of the pharaoh Akhenaten absolutely the place
00:30:15
is not not chosen by chance
00:30:17
he was looking for a place to build his
00:30:20
new capital in any case this is
00:30:22
his city and so he had undertaken to
00:30:25
go up the desert until until in
00:30:28
upper Egypt and there he had stopped
00:30:31
precisely in this famous place of tell el
00:30:33
amarna and what did he see he
00:30:36
saw it was dawn at the beginning he did not know
00:30:39
the sun rising between two
00:30:41
hills and when we look at the shape
00:30:44
that it takes the two hills and the
00:30:48
sun in the middle it is the symbol of the
00:30:50
letter to keith hackett which is in fact
00:30:53
the sun in a way and he
00:30:57
said to himself this is where I I'm going to build my
00:30:59
hacker taton city and that's how he
00:31:01
chose the place. What's
00:31:03
extraordinary is that the city in
00:31:04
question had more or less the shape of an
00:31:06
amphitheater turning towards the east towards
00:31:08
the 'east which is not common for
00:31:10
a city most cities are
00:31:11
finally to the extent that the land
00:31:14
lends itself to it are rather turned towards the
00:31:16
sunset
00:31:17
there it is turned towards the east to
00:31:19
be able to adore it would seem that 'we
00:31:20
get up very early at
00:31:22
and at your to worship the sunrise
00:31:24
it must have been in September and something
00:31:26
even more extraordinary it sets
00:31:28
limits to its city these cases must not
00:31:31
exceed such distance such area
00:31:34
it is the acid tried incredible because we
00:31:37
want a city to develop
00:31:39
a game in infinite expansion yes
00:31:40
well there is this ultimate wisdom no the
00:31:43
man is still known if I dare to
00:31:45
express myself in this way the sovereign is
00:31:47
still quite fascinating yes so
00:31:49
let's talk about the people around him first of all about
00:31:51
this determining mother perhaps a
00:31:55
little abusive which could explain
00:31:56
certain things the queen ti who
00:31:59
gave birth to her we said she was a girl perm a
00:32:02
absolutely authoritarian woman and who in
00:32:05
a way, I shouldn't say it,
00:32:06
but who was a little castrating and
00:32:08
the separation from her son did not prevent her
00:32:10
from having six children
00:32:11
but she is a very tough and very
00:32:13
powerful and who certainly must have
00:32:14
played a lot
00:32:16
of influence in the life of the cades
00:32:18
akhenaton akhenaton had like all the
00:32:21
pharaohs the concubines of the favorites we
00:32:24
will say but who still had a
00:32:25
more official official status than our
00:32:27
modern favorites the most famous of
00:32:30
all its clients annually whose
00:32:33
grave was found precisely in the
00:32:34
famous kv55 tomb which has caused
00:32:38
a lot of ink to flow, it is
00:32:39
buried there you say the famous tomb
00:32:41
because that is where we also find the body supposed to be in any
00:32:44
case the body of filer did not have then it
00:32:46
had been buried initially on
00:32:47
date and the fed up of course absolutely
00:32:49
and yes but there is especially nefertiti
00:32:52
obviously then just a word door of
00:32:54
kia she is the mother seems- is he of
00:32:56
Tutankhamun we are not sure either
00:32:58
eh not sure we think that Tutankhamun's mother is none
00:33:00
other than one of
00:33:02
Tutankhamun's daughters yes because he
00:33:04
married several of his daughters 2 hir
00:33:06
wife and two of his daughters and it
00:33:08
would be one of the two who would be the mother
00:33:10
of Tutankhamun is not one and fair titi
00:33:14
and in this case not who has a man woman
00:33:16
who marries two of his daughters it is
00:33:18
true that obviously that can only
00:33:20
making us frown in our
00:33:22
time it's all a bit strange so
00:33:24
who is Nefertiti in relation to him
00:33:26
first of all we know nothing about her origins
00:33:27
it's still not nothing
00:33:29
we call her the beautiful one came yes
00:33:32
it makes sense it's far away
00:33:33
here comes the beautiful quaresma a label
00:33:35
came we think that the effect of
00:33:38
Italian origin we don't really know who
00:33:40
this woman is
00:33:41
at a given moment we even thought that she
00:33:45
had always been part of her
00:33:46
entourage
00:33:47
we know nothing about her we only have
00:33:50
theories about her obviously if we
00:33:52
judge by the winged fresco she
00:33:54
seemed to be very beautiful but with a
00:33:56
beauty at her heels what role did she
00:33:59
play then indeed it is said that
00:34:01
it is she who would have brought akhenaton to
00:34:04
monotheism which personally I do
00:34:06
not believe the idea ever had in him and
00:34:08
then he created trt the marne and he knew it
00:34:11
only after having created the manabox
00:34:14
the idea does not come from her that she
00:34:16
opposed him by telling him listen
00:34:19
it is that it will be interesting to see
00:34:21
that this 18th dynasty will have been, so to
00:34:23
speak, the dynasty of women with the
00:34:25
retina where we spoke with of
00:34:27
course Queen Hatshepsut who in
00:34:29
your of whom we would have to say if we wanted to be completely
00:34:30
precise, King
00:34:33
Hatshepsut 1 bis that she had been
00:34:35
crowned king
00:34:36
it is still astonishing the primacy of
00:34:39
all these women under the 18th
00:34:41
dynasty cetaceans his students but
00:34:43
do not forget that in ancient Egypt
00:34:44
the woman was treated equal to
00:34:46
the man there were no feelings
00:34:48
or attitude submission of the man
00:34:50
towards with regard to women, women were
00:34:52
treated exactly like men, so
00:34:54
let's also talk about the one who will be the
00:34:56
companion of the entire end of
00:34:58
Akhenaten's reign,
00:34:59
this young square week who was he,
00:35:02
it's not no, but there you go it's the
00:35:04
transit of bad tongues said
00:35:08
that it was him the beautiful one came we do
00:35:11
n't really know where he came from
00:35:13
it was probably a message is said to
00:35:15
be the bearer of
00:35:18
two letters for for akhenaton
00:35:20
akhenaton would have fallen head over heels
00:35:23
in love with this boy and would even have
00:35:26
reigned at his side
00:35:29
for until the end of his reign.
00:35:38
he had nicknamed it alone to understand at the
00:35:40
same time he had nicknamed week because
00:35:43
and screaming I could not put them in our
00:35:45
heads the same names as nefertiti he
00:35:48
had nicknamed it with the same only
00:35:49
bankruptcies come out of them
00:35:51
here it is he had somehow dubbed
00:35:54
queen of Egypt yeah and besides at the
00:35:57
time of burial
00:35:58
they buried feminine imposture yes
00:36:01
with the left arm folded under the
00:36:03
chest all that is still quite astonishing to
00:36:05
some people so don't we can't we
00:36:07
also ask ourselves this question, would
00:36:09
n't there have been a
00:36:11
little bit of a grain, ché ché akhenaton, would
00:36:13
n't it have been a little bit
00:36:16
bothered to change religion to
00:36:19
change? of capital to change
00:36:21
social organization to take a
00:36:24
lover next to his wife and make her
00:36:28
a sort of queen of Egypt and to
00:36:30
consider himself as a man woman
00:36:32
really that's a lot for
00:36:33
one man no yes I'm not going to take
00:36:35
the whole list but I think that in any
00:36:38
case it will disturb I don't think I think because at
00:36:40
that moment but forgive me for making
00:36:42
connections but Jesus Mohammed -
00:36:47
there are empty people and disturbed people too
00:36:49
so for these are very great
00:36:51
visionaries its shareholders and I
00:36:54
always tell myself the big question that we
00:36:56
could ask ourselves and if he had succeeded in imposing monotheism
00:36:59
I mean if we project ourselves and
00:37:03
imagine that monotheism could have existed
00:37:05
in the 15th century century before Jesus Christ the whole
00:37:08
sequence has to be reconstituted
00:37:09
yes it would be it is true that it gives there
00:37:11
it would be a revolution but really
00:37:13
it was but it is a revolution which
00:37:15
aborted
00:37:16
yes we can imagine that this
00:37:17
revolution had been a success and
00:37:21
flourished it would have been very different of
00:37:23
course but
00:37:24
well we were
00:37:25
the gora the general the great
00:37:27
military man of the reign he played a role
00:37:30
in the end of the reign precisely it's
00:37:31
mental because the enemies of Egypt
00:37:34
sell weakness calling its
00:37:38
weakness in any case I would call it
00:37:39
the non-violence of Akhenaten who
00:37:43
wanted us to shed blood at no cost and
00:37:45
that is one of the reasons why he
00:37:47
left Thebes he didn't want any clashes he did
00:37:49
n't want a bloodbath and the
00:37:51
enemies of Egypt took advantage of this to
00:37:53
start to nibble at the country's borders
00:37:56
and obviously the military saw his
00:37:58
very bad look and
00:37:59
they asked him to react. asked him to
00:38:02
raise an army it was perhaps
00:38:03
the fertile cone which played a role
00:38:05
she must have told him listen or not
00:38:06
let Egypt go to waste and he
00:38:08
did not react it is probable that they
00:38:10
had a military coup d'état
00:38:11
second departure the priests of Amon that he
00:38:14
was only waiting for that
00:38:15
I believe that this is how the end
00:38:17
must have happened it is interesting to see
00:38:19
the oratorical precautions to which you
00:38:20
are well obliged to resort as there remains
00:38:22
unresolved a certain number of course
00:38:25
of the major questions of this reign
00:38:27
what is certain is that after a
00:38:29
short interregnum it is Tutankhamun who
00:38:33
will succeed is very young he has what
00:38:35
he at 9.10 before the event then it is
00:38:39
all the time before this reverse swell
00:38:40
but begins by being called all the time
00:38:41
only in your low country obviously since
00:38:43
it is the son in particular and the soul
00:38:46
influence once again of those who
00:38:47
took the relieves
00:38:48
that is to say now becomes upstream again
00:38:50
at we become upstream again and we are going to do the
00:38:53
opposite roux has fractured everything that
00:38:55
relates to at we are in the tomb roux
00:38:58
find it akhenaton indeed we
00:39:01
see the cartridges completely
00:39:04
disfigured shattered we must not more than
00:39:06
figure the god we have nowhere and that
00:39:09
was the end the end of those of this
00:39:12
attempt at monotheism and so all in
00:39:15
all we are going to be called Tutankhamun then
00:39:17
this Tutankhamun there would be almost
00:39:18
nothing to get from it let's be honest,
00:39:20
nothing except that obviously he will become
00:39:24
the most famous pharaoh in
00:39:25
Egyptian history after Ramses II, perhaps
00:39:27
only because we discovered in
00:39:31
1922
00:39:32
that it was rape and when I say we
00:39:34
mean Ward Carter of course
00:39:36
a Narbonne car which will therefore bring to
00:39:39
light this extraordinary tomb with
00:39:42
furniture, funerary furniture
00:39:44
completely suitable for all, almost
00:39:47
intact, it is a major discovery which
00:39:49
will also give new impetus to
00:39:51
an Egyptology which is already powerful in
00:39:53
150 years and I have been very very strong
00:39:57
there it becomes a real windfall
00:40:00
throughout the world thanks to
00:40:01
Tutankhamun
00:40:02
but the poor guy would have been, if I may
00:40:04
say so, very surprised by this
00:40:05
posthumous glory because there is not
00:40:07
much left to to say about his reign is of no use
00:40:08
except that it is lagging
00:40:11
because of or thanks to him and the famous
00:40:12
curse of the pharaohs since all
00:40:15
those who discovered the famous tombs
00:40:16
died in a mysterious and mysterious way
00:40:20
which is quite fascinating it is
00:40:21
ultimately the course of time in this
00:40:24
immutable Egypt has been reconnected and
00:40:28
everything is back in order if I may say so
00:40:29
after this parenthesis which is so
00:40:31
fascinating and which even today
00:40:33
never ceases to amaze us
00:40:34
you take us back with your latest
00:40:36
work would just like to say a word about it if
00:40:38
you wish gilbert sinoué in
00:40:40
the es5 quarter of the moon which appears
00:40:43
at flammarion
00:40:44
you take us back to an
00:40:45
infinitely more recent era we are
00:40:47
almost in the news bury
00:40:49
it was other you do something else with a
00:40:50
leap in time very big leaps its
00:40:53
100 years of history of the Middle East over
00:40:54
three volumes
00:40:55
it is a colossal work cut from almost
00:40:57
1000 pages which tells where cement
00:41:00
would be this family which fit together
00:41:02
if I may say so over a century
00:41:04
of history to try to understand this
00:41:06
Middle East so complicated yeah towards the
00:41:08
Middle East towards the complicated East I
00:41:10
would complicate the part with
00:41:11
simple ideas said General de
00:41:12
Gaulle yours don't are not necessarily
00:41:14
simple but they are bewitching
00:41:17
you have the gift of speaking to us about the
00:41:20
orient with the very substance of those
00:41:23
of this orient but with words and with
00:41:25
concepts which are those of the west
00:41:27
this is what I think makes your your
00:41:29
immense talent gilbert sinoué thank you
00:41:31
very much for coming to talk to us about this2
00:41:33
teasing akhenaton sorry the god
00:41:36
curse is how you nicknamed him
00:41:38
in the
00:41:40
no your biography which is therefore
00:41:42
available in folio number 4295
00:41:46
that is ready if you do
00:41:50
you want to stay in the heart of the city
00:41:53
return to the origins and it's a
00:41:55
question of Marthe who wants to ask
00:41:57
Franck sur ans via the Facebook page of
00:41:58
the show to return to the origins
00:41:59
of the typewriter then the first
00:42:01
known to have and for having filed a
00:42:04
patent for typewriters it was in
00:42:07
1714 when even it was even a certain
00:42:09
Henrie Mille even today it is
00:42:12
impossible to know if his invention was
00:42:14
truly carried out
00:42:15
we don't even know what it
00:42:17
looked like exactly in short we are going to go
00:42:18
to 1780 he is a Frenchman so only a few
00:42:22
years before the revolution
00:42:24
a Frenchman called round page who
00:42:26
developed a machine for the
00:42:29
blind that was initially his
00:42:30
principle he developed a system of
00:42:34
keys connected to a typing bar and
00:42:36
the invention it will be patented much
00:42:38
later in 1833 but the first
00:42:40
typewriter which was really
00:42:43
commercialized is there hansen writing
00:42:46
ball on stage named after its inventor the
00:42:49
Danish reverend rasmus mali grandson
00:42:51
it developed it in 1865 it is
00:42:54
much closer to us and
00:42:55
obviously they marketed it
00:42:58
in 1870 so it turns out that this
00:43:01
gentleman is the director of the
00:43:03
royal institute for the deaf and dumb in
00:43:05
Copenhagen
00:43:06
and there again his initial intention
00:43:08
was to facilitate communication
00:43:10
between these patients and their entourage
00:43:14
all those who did not know
00:43:16
sign language in particular were very
00:43:17
happy that the patient could
00:43:19
write to them like that for me the machine is quite
00:43:21
astonishing it did not at
00:43:22
all resemble the model that we were able to know
00:43:24
it is a sort of dome surmounted
00:43:26
by keys each corresponding to a
00:43:27
letter or a number the sheet of
00:43:29
paper was located under the dome which
00:43:32
made typing, as you can imagine,
00:43:33
quite complicated and the organ had
00:43:35
two mistakes of strikes I imagine you
00:43:37
I let you imagine the difficulties
00:43:40
well ultimately the one we will remember
00:43:42
as being the true father of the
00:43:43
modern typewriter when that was
00:43:45
the question
00:43:46
ultimately that we ask mart he is an
00:43:48
American his name is Christopher the
00:43:50
lady shoals he filed his patent in 1870
00:43:53
so like the danish there his patent will be
00:43:57
bought in 73 by a weapons manufacturer
00:43:59
called remington yes it is the
00:44:02
beginning of the famous remington
00:44:04
lancel machine there we know it of course
00:44:06
c 'is the end of the Civil War
00:44:07
in 1865 we have to find a way to
00:44:11
renew ourselves the brand already makes
00:44:13
sewing machines we say that
00:44:15
typewriters why not so the
00:44:17
Remington model 1 arrives in France in
00:44:20
1883
00:44:21
we can say that' they open a
00:44:23
new era, perhaps simply
00:44:26
the multiplication of paperwork,
00:44:28
sorry to end on this somewhat sad note
00:44:32
[Music]

Description:

Akhenaton est une source de fascination et de spéculation sans fin, et cela masque souvent le fait que nous en savons très peu sur lui. Ce monarque égyptien était l’un des pharaons les plus déconcertants d’Égypte. Il est notamment appelé « le pharaon hérétique » ou « le pharaon rebelle. » Ce pharaon est vraiment très spécial, parce qu’il fut l’un des rares dirigeants de l’Égypte qui croyaient en un dieu unique. Akhenaton a ainsi changé la face de la religion égyptienne durant son règne.

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