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Russian
00:00:05
hello everyone i'm rania kalak and this00:00:07
is dispatches today i'm joined by daniel00:00:09
dumbrell a political commentator on00:00:11
china related issues who's based in00:00:13
shenzhen china we're going to be00:00:15
speaking about his experiences in china00:00:17
everything from hong kong to xinjiang00:00:19
and how it relates to america's new cold00:00:22
war00:00:23
daniel welcome00:00:25
hi thanks for having me00:00:27
so i'm really excited to speak to you00:00:28
and i guess the best way for us to start00:00:30
out here is you know can you give our00:00:32
listeners and viewers00:00:34
an idea of who you are tell us what you00:00:37
do and how you ended up with china and00:00:39
we are how you ended up in china and we00:00:42
can go from there00:00:43
yeah sure no problem first of all00:00:45
upfront i gotta say i'm a fan of your00:00:47
work i've been following you on twitter00:00:48
since 201900:00:51
and i really appreciate what you do and00:00:53
hopefully later in the conversation i00:00:54
can explain exactly why that is but as00:00:56
for myself i've been in in china since00:00:59
2008. um i came here to do business um00:01:03
you know doing this youtube thing this00:01:05
little political commentation thing is00:01:07
not something i ever thought i would do00:01:09
um00:01:10
and it kind of takes away from my main00:01:12
work that i do but i got into it and the00:01:14
reason i started was um around the hong00:01:16
kong protest time period uh when things00:01:18
were kind of unraveling there i was just00:01:20
i was just blown away by how different00:01:24
the uh truth on the ground was versus00:01:26
the narrative that was being broadcasted00:01:28
overseas i had a lot of friends in hong00:01:31
kong um they were kind of you could call00:01:33
them they were superficially called00:01:35
pro-establishment they didn't side with00:01:37
these protesters but they wouldn't dare00:01:39
speak up that because it was dangerous00:01:41
for them if they spoke up their00:01:42
businesses would be attacked and all00:01:44
this kind of stuff and it was really00:01:45
ironic i had i had other hong kong00:01:47
friends um who when they came over to00:01:49
shenzhen the mainland side00:01:51
they would uh all of a sudden say ah00:01:54
finally i'm free i can say whatever i00:01:56
want which is totally ironic because00:01:58
people thought you you can't do that in00:01:59
china yeah so it was it was just so00:02:02
backwards for me00:02:03
and it was just like these are people00:02:05
that are supposedly fighting for00:02:07
democracy but they're burning down the00:02:08
political offices of their opponent they00:02:11
stabbed a a pro-establishment politician00:02:14
they set a man on fire and these people00:02:16
were like there were there were actually00:02:18
people who were lifting up the00:02:19
protesters to say that they deserved a00:02:20
nobel peace prize and i said you know00:02:23
what i gotta i gotta say something and i00:02:25
felt like it was00:02:26
seeing a lot of uh because i mean the00:02:28
u.s admitted that they had ned and all00:02:30
these different kinds of programs that00:02:32
were running in in hong kong uh you um00:02:35
usagm had some different programs they00:02:37
were running there as well00:02:38
and00:02:39
one thing that was unfolding was that00:02:41
there was a huge um divide happening00:02:43
between local hong kong people and00:02:45
mainland chinese residents who either00:02:47
immigrated to hong kong before or they00:02:49
were mandarin speakers and there was a00:02:51
guy jimmy ly who was publishing things00:02:53
that were really that was really stoking00:02:55
that fire00:02:56
you know previous publications were00:02:57
calling mainlanders mainland chinese00:02:59
people locusts and all this kind of00:03:00
stuff and i felt like i was seeing00:03:03
something that i had always wondered00:03:04
about in the past for example my00:03:06
mother's country of guyana in south00:03:07
america they had a similar thing after00:03:09
chetty jagen was elected he was a little00:03:11
bit too kind of socialist leaning and00:03:13
all of a sudden um this is declassified00:03:15
documents the mi5 and the cia went in00:03:18
and they created they stoked racial00:03:20
violence between the um the people of00:03:22
african descent and the people of indian00:03:24
descent and just you know launched the00:03:26
country into chaos eventually a chatty00:03:28
jagan was replaced with somebody else so00:03:30
i felt like that's what's happening now00:03:32
and i gotta say something and so that's00:03:34
um that's how i kind of got started00:03:36
and then obviously xinjiang became a lot00:03:39
more of a target00:03:40
so i really started digging into that a00:03:42
little bit more i know people from00:03:43
xinjiang and everything like that and i00:03:45
went to visit which we can get into a00:03:46
bit later but00:03:47
that was kind of00:03:49
um the evolution of what um what got me00:03:53
into it there's a few other reasons but00:03:54
that's kind of the00:03:55
the general version00:03:57
well it's it's always interesting i mean00:03:59
you were in china and you're there to00:04:01
see how the u.s media is portraying00:04:04
everything versus the reality from00:04:06
people who actually live in these places00:04:08
so let's start with hong kong um you you00:04:10
kind of gave a little brief00:04:12
view of what the protests in hong kong00:04:14
were like but you know in the u.s hong00:04:16
kong is portrayed as you know as you00:04:17
know very black and white it's this00:04:19
place that china is00:04:21
imposing itself on right um so what is00:04:25
the reality there like what happened in00:04:28
hong kong00:04:30
how did it start because that's another00:04:31
thing that's so fascinating about hong00:04:32
kong is the way that the security law00:04:36
came about that everybody started00:04:37
protesting about so like what was the00:04:40
inception of what triggered protests in00:04:42
hong kong which were obviously receiving00:04:44
support and funding as well from various00:04:47
u.s regime change organizations00:04:49
but yeah can you give our viewers00:04:51
there's like a brief overview of the00:04:52
hong kong issue how did it start00:04:54
so i mean one of the main catalysts were00:04:57
um was the kind of extradition bill you00:04:59
know there was a hong kong man who00:05:01
murdered his girlfriend in taiwan00:05:03
um cut her up put her in a suitcase and00:05:05
dumped her somewhere and came back to00:05:06
hong kong and there was no extradition00:05:09
bill to send him over to taiwan so they00:05:12
said we need to fix this because there's00:05:13
a murderer on the loose in hong kong00:05:15
well initially he wasn't on the loose he00:05:17
they managed to get him on something00:05:19
superficial regarding00:05:20
[Music]00:05:22
money laundering or something along the00:05:23
lines of that because when he came back00:05:24
he was using his girlfriend uh his00:05:27
girlfriend's uh bank card so he was in00:05:29
prison for a very short period of time00:05:31
but he was going to be released soon and00:05:32
they're like we need to find a way to00:05:34
get this guy back so they're going to00:05:35
put this extradition bill in place but00:05:37
the problem is they couldn't launch it00:05:38
for only taiwan um you know they00:05:40
couldn't say that you know recognize00:05:42
taiwan as an individual place they say00:05:43
okay let's do this across the board so00:05:46
you know00:05:47
mainland china is going to have the00:05:48
ability to extradite people from hong00:05:50
kong as well the rules behind it were00:05:52
really strict it was never ever00:05:53
represented accurately i interacted with00:05:56
some of the people from bbc who are in00:05:57
charge of reporting on this and i said00:05:59
hold on a second here you have actual00:06:01
fabrications in your report and i just00:06:03
got blocked by them they're like we did00:06:05
they didn't want to engage yeah the00:06:07
stephen mcdonald he said he was the main00:06:08
guy for the extradition bill and he said00:06:11
point to me the inaccuracies and i said00:06:13
okay send me a report send me your you00:06:16
know00:06:17
reporting or bbc's reporting on the00:06:19
extradition bill so he waited a few days00:06:21
and then he sent me an article that was00:06:23
changed it was modified like a few00:06:25
minutes before he sent it to me so i00:06:27
think he would they're trying to cross00:06:28
all their t's dot all their eyes and00:06:29
they sent it to me and they were still00:06:31
inaccurate season and i said well here00:06:33
we go one two three four this is where00:06:35
it's inaccurate so people didn't realize00:06:37
that it was a really uh robust thing00:06:39
where it had to be a crime both in00:06:41
mainland china and in hong kong it had00:06:43
to go through the whole judicial system00:06:45
the final approval was in the um00:06:48
the chief executive's hands she could00:06:50
make the final approval for an00:06:52
extradition to china but she couldn't um00:06:55
force it like for example the court said00:06:56
no no this person's not going to be00:06:58
extradited the chief executive couldn't00:07:00
override that and say no you're being00:07:02
sent to hong kong so there was a lot of00:07:03
misrepresentation around the um00:07:06
extradition bill which was something00:07:07
that was really really needed um00:07:10
taiwan um00:07:12
i think you know the forces that were00:07:14
involved in taiwan really took advantage00:07:15
of this also and they were pretending00:07:18
that no no we're not going to accept00:07:19
this guy under an extradition bill like00:07:21
this anyways um00:07:23
you know you know00:07:24
his girlfriend like that's so easy to00:07:26
get chopped up oh it gets worse00:07:29
it gets worse so while he was in prison00:07:32
um there was a um there was somebody a00:07:35
counselor who went in and convinced him00:07:37
that when he was going to be released00:07:39
from prison he would turn himself in he00:07:42
would fly to taiwan00:07:44
and turn himself in and he agreed he00:07:46
said okay we're going to do it. and00:07:48
after that was announced taiwan said no00:07:49
we're not going to allow him to fly back00:07:51
so it's like okay hold on a second what00:07:53
is this really about00:07:55
and then they made up this new kind of a00:07:57
thing saying you have to allow taiwan00:07:59
police officers to fly to hong kong and00:08:01
make the arrest in hong kong so they00:08:03
basically designed a system that would a00:08:06
situation that would never actually00:08:08
happen like you know china is not going00:08:11
to give taiwanese police officers00:08:13
authority in hong kong to make arrests00:08:15
it was deliberately designed around that00:08:17
so that was the the catalyst but after00:08:20
they canceled the extradition bill it00:08:21
kept going forward it kept becoming00:08:23
about these other demands giving amnesty00:08:25
to all of these rioters and all of these00:08:27
things so it was constantly moving the00:08:29
goal post to keep this going that was00:08:31
the whole00:08:32
thing that they wanted to do00:08:34
um so it just kind of descended into00:08:36
chaos and i think that was the main goal00:08:38
one thing i do want to say though is00:08:39
underneath at all there are issues in00:08:41
hong kong there are issues with housing00:08:43
affordability with the way that the uh00:08:46
the system works there um in terms of00:08:48
the economics and things like that you00:08:50
know the apartments are really small so00:08:52
a lot of the times when these things00:08:53
happen00:08:54
there are other underlying societal00:08:56
issues but they use another excuse to00:08:58
bring it out and obviously outside00:09:00
forces capitalized on that as well00:09:02
um but that's kind of how it it it00:09:06
it spiraled out of control initially00:09:08
anyways00:09:09
it's such a typical story i mean00:09:10
everywhere you look of course countries00:09:12
and territories i guess in the case of00:09:14
hong kong they have lots of issues00:09:16
locally like any place i mean the u.s00:09:18
has lots of issues00:09:20
and what these organizations like you00:09:22
know national endowment for democracy00:09:24
and usaid do so well and i've seen them00:09:26
do it in the middle east i'm you know00:09:27
you've seen them do it in china um is00:09:30
they latch on to genuine grievances00:09:33
um and push you know and then also they00:09:36
encourage00:09:37
like destructive rioting i mean that's00:09:39
one thing i think americans don't00:09:41
understand is the level of00:09:44
destructive rioting that our u.s00:09:47
organizations end up supporting whether00:09:49
it's like you know in the case of a00:09:50
place like syria which has way bigger00:09:52
problems than a place like hong kong in00:09:55
terms of you know economics and freedom00:09:58
and all kinds of repression um and they00:10:01
have a lot more to protest there but the00:10:03
backing ends up going to people who are00:10:05
like burning down police stations and00:10:08
who are like lynching people in the00:10:10
street and who are right-wing and00:10:12
xenophobic and sec and sectarian in the00:10:15
case of syria and racist00:10:17
and that's like what people don't seem00:10:19
to understand is these are really like00:10:21
the proud boys00:10:22
or right some other yeah00:10:25
it's interesting you should make that00:10:26
comparison as well because the one thing00:10:28
i constantly say as well is while these00:10:30
riots were going on you had people like00:10:33
josh hawley and some other senators ted00:10:35
cruz flying over to hong kong cheer on00:10:38
these protesters all you have to do is00:10:40
you have to imagine if during the00:10:42
capitol hill riots if there were00:10:44
chinese communist party officials flying00:10:46
over from beijing to cheer them on00:10:48
what what do you think would happen that00:10:50
would be absolutely unacceptable and in00:10:53
terms of saying that syria or all these00:10:54
other places have more problems that's00:10:56
also a good point according to00:10:58
measurable tangible freedoms by the cato00:11:00
institute hong kong was ranked the third00:11:02
freest place on earth this is by freedom00:11:05
of movement taxation size of government00:11:07
uh00:11:09
freedom of religion freedom of press all00:11:11
of these things wrapped up together hong00:11:12
kong was number three the third freest00:11:14
place on earth00:11:16
the u.s was i think it was the 17th or00:11:18
something like that so the 17th place is00:11:20
coming to bring freedom to hong kong the00:11:22
third free place00:11:24
according to measurable freedoms and the00:11:26
cato institute is not a pro-china report00:11:27
they put all these00:11:28
you know00:11:30
these you know fine print underneath00:11:32
saying but you know the chinese00:11:33
government's really evil and all this00:11:34
stuff but at the end of the day when00:11:35
you're using math and you're you you've00:11:38
got to actually put your data out there00:11:40
hong kong was a very considered a very00:11:42
very free place even according to00:11:44
western standards so china china ranks00:11:47
low on the list but if you want to use00:11:48
because that's what they're using00:11:50
they're using a western lens on hong00:11:51
kong using their own set of standards00:11:54
hong kong was a very free place and this00:11:56
is what they were doing to it00:11:58
yeah and you know now it seems as though00:12:00
china00:12:01
actually won00:12:03
when it comes to what happened in hong00:12:04
kong like the u.s failed in its attempt00:12:06
to00:12:07
you know it succeeded and of course00:12:09
causing a lot of destruction to the00:12:10
economy um because those those riots00:12:13
persisted for several months i think00:12:14
maybe even more than a year that was00:12:16
ongoing oh it was over here00:12:18
and it devastated the economy and00:12:20
tourism um but ultimately the u.s failed00:12:23
and now it i don't know is is this still00:12:25
an ongoing issue in hong kong or is it00:12:27
kind of like00:12:28
firmly been decided00:12:30
not really i mean you know there's all00:12:32
kinds of new laws that were put in place00:12:34
the national security law was something00:12:35
that was supposed to be launched anyways00:12:38
but that basically um00:12:41
what unraveled help pushed this forward00:12:43
sooner i mean you had people like the00:12:46
national front leader baguio liang he00:12:48
was on00:12:50
live streams with um00:12:53
with uh gua wang wae who was also with00:12:55
uh steve bannon and golong way was00:12:57
promising him saying we will give you00:12:59
all the support you need you have steve00:13:01
bannon's full support you have the u.s00:13:02
government's full support don't worry00:13:04
and then like i think it was a month or00:13:06
two months after that he was arrested in00:13:08
connection with one of the largest00:13:09
explosive halls in hong kong's history00:13:12
for some reason he managed to get bail i00:13:14
don't know how how that happened um one00:13:16
of my friends in hong kong said there's00:13:17
a lot of corrupt dru00:13:19
not trump sorry uh judges from the00:13:21
colonial colonial era um who probably00:13:24
said okay you can have now he's in the00:13:25
u.s and he went to that recent summit um00:13:28
in washington dc that had anthony00:13:29
blinken um all these different people00:13:32
kind of in this china bashing session00:13:34
and he was there at one of the breakout00:13:36
sessions explaining how you know00:13:38
terrible hong kong was and everything00:13:39
like that so when you have that kind of00:13:41
situation and you have senators from the00:13:43
u.s who can fly over and do all this00:13:45
kind of stuff there needs to be some00:13:46
controls in place every other society00:13:49
has the national security law um of00:13:50
course there's always a risk that a00:13:52
society or government will overuse those00:13:55
laws or that they will you know you use00:13:57
them to00:13:58
oppress people with their there's always00:14:00
that risk but unfortunately it's like00:14:02
what do you do here and it even got in a00:14:04
situation where ordinary00:14:05
people in hong kong who were really not00:14:07
interested in politics at all suddenly00:14:10
started cheering for the national00:14:11
security bill like i have friends in00:14:13
hong kong who were opening up bottles of00:14:15
champagne when it passed you know these00:14:17
are stories you're not gonna see in the00:14:19
west now of course there are other00:14:20
people who completely hate it and they00:14:22
were part of the protest they're part of00:14:23
the protesters they were kind of00:14:25
brainwashed into believing that this is00:14:26
what they need to do um but the other00:14:29
side of the story which is still a very00:14:31
significant uh a number of people00:14:33
involved in it that story didn't get00:14:35
told by the west and so i felt i felt00:14:37
frustrated by it and that goes back into00:14:38
why i was like okay people need to hear00:14:40
the other side of the story00:14:41
people might not believe me but i'm00:14:43
gonna i'm gonna put it out there and i00:14:44
had people because i lived in hong kong00:14:46
for two years as well um in the middle00:14:48
kind of00:14:49
of the uh of my time over here and um00:14:52
some of my00:14:54
son's classmates friends from the school00:14:55
he used to go to when they saw some of00:14:57
my videos they hadn't contacted me in00:14:59
years they sent me messages thanking me00:15:00
for putting these out saying thank you00:15:02
for telling this side of the story00:15:03
because we can't do it if we did it our00:15:05
businesses would be attacked it would00:15:06
just be too dangerous for us we have our00:15:08
families here00:15:09
i mean i think it was pretty revealing00:15:11
when you saw images of protesters like00:15:14
storming into i think it was like the00:15:15
parliament putting up the british flag00:15:17
hong kong used to be like occupied by00:15:19
the british and controlled by the00:15:20
british yeah the legislative policy00:15:22
and uh of course you know waving trump00:15:24
flags and and all of these things and i00:15:27
thought it was so interesting recently00:15:29
there was this uh freak out in the00:15:31
western mainstream press about00:15:34
a guy who had been sentenced under this00:15:36
new security law00:15:37
to like nine years in prison and they00:15:40
made it sound like this guy was just a00:15:41
protester but when you actually read the00:15:43
article about why he was sentenced to00:15:45
nine years in prison in hong kong00:15:47
it was because he intentionally ran his00:15:50
motorcycle into a group of police00:15:52
officers trying to kill them i mean00:15:55
like it's just in the u.s you know if00:15:58
somebody were to run a vehicle into00:16:01
police officers i don't even think00:16:02
they'd make it out alive00:16:04
right00:16:06
exactly i remember seeing that video00:16:08
like when that happened i remember00:16:09
seeing that video like i was watching00:16:11
all of this stuff that was as it was00:16:12
happening and people don't know this00:16:14
when you get ordinary people who have00:16:15
been propagandized into the us's view of00:16:18
the the situation in hong kong they00:16:20
don't know that protesters lit a man on00:16:22
fire and he went into you know a00:16:24
critical uh he went into critical care00:16:27
for many many months he has permanent00:16:29
nerve damage all over his body00:16:31
people don't know this they don't know00:16:33
that side of the story so it's really00:16:34
remarkable how people control00:16:36
uh the narrative and then so obviously00:16:38
the next target was um00:16:40
uh what is xinjiang more so now they00:16:42
know they failed in hong kong um they've00:16:44
left hong kong for all of those00:16:46
protesters who were standing with trump00:16:48
flags u.s flags they're left in a00:16:50
situation worse off than they were00:16:52
before because now they have these00:16:53
national security laws that they don't00:16:54
really like and things like that and00:16:55
there probably would have been a chance00:16:57
for it to be pushed out much further um00:17:00
had this not happened and the u.s00:17:02
doesn't really care anymore i mean they00:17:03
might make some superficial efforts and00:17:05
bring some people over especially if00:17:06
they're willing to tell a a good story00:17:09
which is happening in xinjiang and i'll00:17:10
mention one of those stories in a bit00:17:12
but for the most part they're they're00:17:14
done they've been used next you know00:17:18
it's um and i want to get to xinjiang00:17:20
but first i think that that's a really00:17:21
good segue into the issue of america00:17:23
really just like abandons abandons its00:17:26
its tools its puppets its allies its00:17:29
friends as we just saw in afghanistan00:17:30
right the u.s spent right 20 years00:17:33
propping up this government in00:17:34
afghanistan only to then hand the00:17:36
country over to the taliban and allow00:17:39
that government to fall it kind of like00:17:40
almost allowed a coup against the00:17:42
government it back00:17:44
and the reason i mentioned afghanistan00:17:46
is you know before we get into the issue00:17:47
in xinjiang this is tangentially related00:17:50
is you know um00:17:52
a lot of attention like i was actually00:17:54
first curious is there a lot of00:17:56
attention in china being given to events00:17:58
in afghanistan and what does the afghan00:18:01
defeat uh00:18:02
for the afghan government look like from00:18:05
there especially given that afghanistan00:18:07
is close to china like geographically00:18:10
close to china uh is there a00:18:12
conversation in china about how this00:18:14
might impact the country's national00:18:15
security i saw that the chinese00:18:17
government00:18:18
is of course concerned about the taliban00:18:21
potentially giving a safe haven to the00:18:23
turkistan islamic party which is the00:18:25
weaker00:18:26
jihadist separatist group thousands of00:18:28
whom uh actually went and fought in00:18:30
syria and still live in in idlib till00:18:33
this day00:18:34
right right exactly so i mean people are00:18:37
talking about on the ground a little bit00:18:38
it's not really huge uh huge news here00:18:40
from what i see i don't really consume00:18:42
too much media here um to be honest i'm00:18:44
not really a big fan of uh of chinese00:18:47
state media they don't really know first00:18:48
of all they don't know how to tell their00:18:49
stories well but also they just kind of00:18:51
say it like it is like actually chinese00:18:53
state media is pretty reliable when it00:18:55
comes to international00:18:56
news but the whole reason i got into00:18:58
really analyzing news is because it00:18:59
fascinates me when people put things out00:19:01
that are just so far from the truth but00:19:03
yeah i mean you can see things going on00:19:05
like um china willing to engage with the00:19:07
taliban and things like that and uh00:19:10
it'll be interesting to see how it plays00:19:11
out i think there's you know everybody00:19:13
everybody seems to be an expert on00:19:14
afghanistan at the moment but00:19:16
i just you know00:19:18
i don't think we know how it's going to00:19:19
play out i mean i have mixed feelings00:19:21
about what china's how china engages the00:19:24
world in this situation the taliban are00:19:26
in control of afghanistan right now00:19:27
china's philosophy on foreign policy is00:19:30
they don't interfere in foreign00:19:31
governments like they do with the like00:19:33
the u.s does if the us doesn't like a00:19:34
government or they're not playing ball00:19:36
with their corporate interests they00:19:37
overthrow them or they you know sponsor00:19:39
a military coup china won't do that00:19:40
they'll just say okay well the taliban00:19:42
are in charge now so this is who we deal00:19:43
with this is who we negotiate with so on00:19:45
one on one hand you say well what does00:19:47
that mean does that mean china's00:19:48
actually legitimizing these guys but on00:19:50
the other hand this is the thing that we00:19:51
like about china is that they just you00:19:53
know they they don't interfere in the00:19:54
politics of other people's countries00:19:56
so um that that's i don't think that00:19:59
conversation is happening in the media00:20:00
but that's just how i'm processing all00:20:02
of this as it's happening so it'll be00:20:03
interesting to see how it plays out i00:20:05
think they definitely want to make sure00:20:06
that they're no longer aligned with etim00:20:09
or tip00:20:10
as they've been you know many of them00:20:12
have rebranded them to00:20:14
but you know they they've already they00:20:16
already have an alliance with the00:20:18
taliban whether the taliban kind of00:20:19
breaks off with them or not um is is is00:20:22
yet to be seen but i think i think00:20:24
definitely probably whether that's in00:20:26
the conversation of the media here or00:20:27
not i'm sure that's a major concern for00:20:30
the chinese government00:20:32
so i guess it's a good time to turn to00:20:34
the issue that everybody honestly wants00:20:36
to hear about learn about understand00:20:38
more about because there's so much00:20:39
propaganda around it which is the issue00:20:40
of xinjiang but first i i have to ask00:20:43
you because of all the criticism that00:20:44
this issue comes with um and i know that00:20:47
you get relentlessly attacked00:20:50
a lot for for just you know being honest00:20:52
from how you see it on this issue but00:20:55
everyone talks about china as being this00:20:57
very uh repressive place00:21:00
to speak openly about anything so i'm00:21:02
curious before we go into xinjiang have00:21:04
you ever been harassed or had trouble00:21:08
with security authorities in china00:21:11
never never once in my life00:21:13
all right that's interesting yeah maybe00:21:16
there was a parking lot or something00:21:18
like that where you know they wanted to00:21:20
rip me off or something and the security00:21:21
guard was trying to get like two parking00:21:23
space fees for me or something like that00:21:25
but in terms of government actual00:21:27
security forces no i've never ever had00:21:30
an issue if anything they're really00:21:31
friendly when you when you run into um00:21:34
kind of police or things like that in00:21:35
different parts of china they're very00:21:36
very friendly with foreigners yeah okay00:21:39
maybe they know one or two words in00:21:40
english and they'll say to you like00:21:41
hello in a very emphasizing kind of00:21:44
trying to do like an english accent when00:21:45
they say hello um but00:21:48
very very friendly you know00:21:50
i was when i was in xinjiang and i was00:21:52
going around00:21:53
i kept that in mind because you know you00:21:55
see these journalists going there and00:21:56
they do all these dramatic things like00:21:58
they're saying oh there's security i'm00:21:59
going to duck down and they duck down on00:22:00
their cars and they make it really00:22:02
dramatic and they have a scary music00:22:04
yeah00:22:05
yeah exactly they do scary music and00:22:08
when i went to some of these like places00:22:10
like i i visited some of the coordinates00:22:12
that people were talking about and stuff00:22:14
like that and some places you can't go00:22:16
in like there were there was one place00:22:17
that was under construction and there00:22:18
was a female uyghur she must have been00:22:20
in her 40s or 50s or something like that00:22:22
she says no no you can't go in here and00:22:24
i was thinking as i was doing all this i00:22:26
said how would i make this into an issue00:22:27
if i was from the bbc you know i would00:22:29
say okay well first of all maybe i would00:22:31
find a different entrance with maybe00:22:32
some male security guards because she00:22:34
doesn't look very intimidating and i00:22:35
would try to push my way into this00:22:37
private property and create a00:22:39
confrontation i was kind of looking at00:22:41
that because i i mean i wasn't00:22:42
experiencing any of that anywhere in00:22:44
china and it's remarkable to me that00:22:46
these journalists can continually over00:22:48
and over again find these conflicts00:22:51
um but but you know me personally no i i00:22:54
haven't uh experienced anything like00:22:56
that00:22:57
and so you of course you recently00:22:59
visited xinjiang and i guess a good00:23:01
place to start before we talk about some00:23:04
of what you witnessed00:23:05
is can you like situate this is part of00:23:07
a broader first of all people need to00:23:09
understand this is part of a broader00:23:10
uh attack on china by sort of using00:23:12
these different geographical regions00:23:14
that have00:23:15
uh distinct minority groups and you know00:23:18
cultural groups ethnicities uh00:23:20
territories whether it's hong kong or00:23:22
xinjiang or tibet or taiwan00:23:24
uh and this is what we've heard00:23:26
the state department and cia openly00:23:29
admit is they want to ferment unrest in00:23:31
these different areas00:23:33
uh that where they can cultivate it in00:23:36
an effort to vulcanize china and break00:23:37
it up and essentially make it weaker00:23:39
because china has this massive economy00:23:41
that's supposed to overtake uh the u.s00:23:43
economy00:23:44
by like 20 25 or something i don't know00:23:47
some year that they've decided that they00:23:48
need to like hurry up and you know00:23:50
destroy china before that happens but so00:23:52
you recently00:23:54
visited xinjiang where we hear there's00:23:55
this massive genocide taking place this00:23:58
massive00:23:59
uh you know some people use really i think00:24:01
sensationalist language like they call00:24:03
it a holocaust they they say that00:24:05
millions of weakers are being rounded up00:24:08
and put into camps00:24:10
so00:24:11
i guess00:24:12
i want to address that but let's talk00:24:14
about00:24:15
before we talk about that i guess how00:24:16
did you get there was it difficult to go00:24:18
there did you need permission and is00:24:20
there a lot of security there because00:24:21
like you were talking about in a lot of00:24:22
these videos that you see whether it's00:24:24
from vice or cnn00:24:25
like they make it sound like they have00:24:26
to sneak in or there's just security00:24:29
guards everywhere and they're constantly00:24:31
having to hide they're constantly being00:24:32
followed there's constantly scary music00:24:34
so what was your experience in that00:24:35
respect00:24:36
so yeah i guess before we get into the00:24:38
whole kind of what is actually going on00:24:40
in terms of visiting00:24:42
so to tibet is a place where there's00:24:44
more restrictions in place you need to00:24:45
apply for special permits and things00:24:46
like that i've been to tibet twice00:24:49
um but xinjiang not at all you can just00:24:51
go there whenever you want there might00:24:53
be some restrictions sometimes because00:24:54
of the kovid situation but you just go00:24:56
there i i you know i booked my own00:24:58
flight i was in shanghai for a00:25:00
conference and i flew from shanghai00:25:02
directly through from urumchi to00:25:06
kashgar00:25:07
kashgar is a city that has a little bit00:25:09
more local kind of culture so that's00:25:10
where i wanted to go to experience00:25:12
things and i went by myself now halfway00:25:14
through the trip i really wanted to00:25:16
visit some of these places that people00:25:17
were talking about like these different00:25:19
coordinates and talk to somebody so i00:25:20
did reach out to some contacts to find00:25:22
out if i could get extra permission to00:25:24
go places so the first half of my trip00:25:25
was just me exploring by myself i was00:25:28
going into markets i was talking to00:25:29
ordinary people i was asking them about00:25:31
the situation um you know they had all00:25:33
kinds of restrictions in place when the00:25:34
terrorism was going on and some of them00:25:36
might seem strange to people you know00:25:38
for example in the in the in the00:25:40
restaurants and the butcher shops there00:25:42
the ch the knives were chained down to00:25:44
their table so nobody could grab a knife00:25:46
and kind of attack somebody with a knife00:25:48
and so i noticed when i was there um00:25:51
that the guy you know at the barbecue00:25:53
shop i was at he had the knife it was00:25:54
attached to a chain but the chain wasn't00:25:56
attached to the table so i was asking00:25:58
about that i was saying you know is that00:25:59
was that because of the you know00:26:00
terrorism issue he said yeah i said but00:26:02
it seems like it's like loosened up a00:26:04
lot now he says yeah it's not it's not00:26:05
as bad anymore um00:26:07
you can go there you can talk to people00:26:09
by yourself um and it's it's no problem00:26:12
very easy now if you're specifically a00:26:14
journalist and you're you're going to do00:26:16
journalism i'm not sure the process is00:26:18
any different but for regular even for00:26:21
vloggers i know a lot of other people00:26:22
who went there and filmed they didn't00:26:24
get any permission they didn't tell00:26:25
anybody and they went and they filmed00:26:27
for a week or two weeks and they came00:26:28
back anybody can do it um so it really00:26:31
it really is uh00:26:32
quite easy yeah00:26:34
okay so now that we've gotten past that00:26:36
part00:26:37
uh can you tell can you describe what00:26:39
you saw on xinjiang and00:26:41
how did it00:26:42
uh compare to the kinds of00:26:45
accusations that we're hearing in the00:26:47
u.s press00:26:49
so i mean everything00:26:51
you know00:26:52
kids in the street uh who are playing00:26:54
they were speaking their local language00:26:56
that was something i was paying00:26:57
attention to because obviously you hear00:26:58
about00:26:59
their language being eradicated um i00:27:02
visited the mosque00:27:04
you know people were attending the00:27:05
mosque at night00:27:06
i think they were if i remember00:27:08
correctly there were more people on00:27:09
friday mostly old people i had the00:27:11
chance to speak to one of the imams at00:27:12
idkar mosque00:27:14
his father was actually one of the00:27:16
people who was killed by these00:27:17
terrorists and a lot of people don't00:27:18
realize that there were a lot of uyghurs00:27:20
who were targeted by these terrorists00:27:21
because this wasn't really necessarily00:27:23
about these um00:27:25
salafist jihadists against china it was00:27:28
salafist jihadists against infidels00:27:30
people who wouldn't follow this extreme00:27:32
interpretation of islam so in many ways00:27:35
uyghurs were an even bigger target for00:27:37
them so i got to meet this guy and i00:27:39
asked him about it i asked him about the00:27:40
volumes of people to the mosque and he00:27:42
said it is down a lot and i was asking00:27:44
him as i said is that are there any00:27:45
programs in place to try to00:27:47
discourage people from going he said no00:27:49
he says this is just a natural00:27:50
phenomenon all around the world he said00:27:52
when your society improves and people00:27:54
get better jobs and stuff like that they00:27:55
come less often he said but during the00:27:57
holidays a lot of people come so what i00:27:59
witnessed was mostly old people a lot of00:28:02
old people going to the mosque uh in the00:28:04
evenings00:28:05
um00:28:06
police presence for sure there's a very00:28:08
very big police presence they seem to be00:28:10
very integrated in society they're00:28:12
they're very friendly with everybody00:28:15
when they see you know i saw a police00:28:16
officer pushing somebody in a wheelchair00:28:18
across the road when i was speaking to00:28:20
one of my uyghur friends there she was00:28:21
saying the police are so integrated in00:28:23
society that people call them for00:28:24
everything she says like somebody in her00:28:26
building had a water pipe break and they00:28:28
called the police and the police came in00:28:30
they're like okay and they helped like00:28:31
fix the pipe and stuff like that and she00:28:33
said because she's not really a very00:28:35
religious a lot of users are kind of00:28:37
moderate muslims or they've adopted a00:28:39
lot of the um00:28:42
islamic practices as a matter of culture00:28:44
more than it is a strict kind of00:28:46
religious following00:28:47
and so00:28:49
she there were a lot of the restaurants00:28:50
that i went to um00:28:52
because it was during their kind of00:28:54
religious holiday there weren't people00:28:55
eating in the day they were fasting but00:28:56
she was somebody who does who doesn't00:28:58
follow that and she eats and she said00:28:59
before when these forces were loose in00:29:02
xinjiang she would be afraid to go out00:29:05
and kind of you know eat during these00:29:07
time periods or uyghurs who drink they00:29:09
would be afraid to be seen drinking in00:29:10
public even though uh the culture of00:29:12
winemaking and uyghur culture predates00:29:15
even that of islam in the uyghur00:29:16
community but these were things that00:29:19
were would put them at great risk from00:29:20
these kinds of terrorists and it's00:29:22
really interesting so these terrorists00:29:23
wanted to erase these parts of uyghur00:29:25
culture they wanted um women to wear00:29:30
niqabs and all of these things that00:29:31
aren't part of uyghur culture that's00:29:33
when the real cultural genocide was00:29:35
going on that was the actual cultural00:29:37
genocide and nobody cared about it then00:29:39
and so when china came in and said okay00:29:41
we've got to do something about this um00:29:43
they put all these different things in00:29:44
place and sometimes it was clumsy00:29:46
sometimes it was clumsy like they had00:29:47
these different rules that when you look00:29:49
at it on paper00:29:50
it's like why would you why would you do00:29:52
this what is this law about so for00:29:54
example they say that you know00:29:56
really clumsily worded i don't know00:29:58
exactly how they worded it but something00:29:59
along the lines of you can't stop00:30:01
consuming media which people translate00:30:04
to state media because most media and00:30:06
china estate media but they don't00:30:08
explain that00:30:11
the specific thing they were trying to00:30:12
counter is that the way these groups00:30:14
were trying to radicalize these people00:30:16
were withdrawing them from society they00:30:18
were telling women that women can't go00:30:20
out that you have to stop listening to00:30:22
everybody else you have to00:30:24
listen to these uh salafist jihadist00:30:26
idol ideologies so that was their way of00:30:28
trying to counter it which is a very00:30:30
clumsy way of doing it so there were00:30:32
missteps along the way but they really00:30:34
created a pretty effective program but00:30:37
it's interesting to see how everybody's00:30:38
processing this because now everybody's00:30:40
talking about for example00:30:42
oh wow this um00:30:43
extreme version of islam is going to00:30:45
take over afghanistan now that the00:30:47
taliban are in place so all of a sudden00:30:48
people have an appreciation00:30:50
for what that specific interpretation of00:30:53
of islam00:30:54
might do to especially women and00:30:56
children in that society but they didn't00:30:58
care that that's exactly what was00:31:00
happening in in xinjiang all of a sudden00:31:02
they care about women and children00:31:04
living under sharia law all of a sudden00:31:07
they care on an additional they care00:31:09
about women and children in afghanistan00:31:10
that u.s soldiers were killing and00:31:12
bombing and drone striking now they're00:31:13
going to say how are the taliban going00:31:15
to treat women and children00:31:17
hopefully better than you did but you00:31:19
know obviously there's a there's an00:31:20
issue going on here and these things00:31:22
don't happen in a bubble also if you00:31:23
look at kyrgyzstan in the south of00:31:25
mostly uzbek00:31:27
ethnic minorities they were the group00:31:29
that was targeted for00:31:31
radicalization so it has the same kind00:31:32
of a thing they they want to establish a00:31:34
caliphate and rule over their region00:31:36
with a sharia law these things are real00:31:39
but i think the problem we have is that00:31:40
the word uh war on terror has been so00:31:43
tainted by the u.s00:31:45
um that people have a hard time looking00:31:48
at it as a legitimate thing like when00:31:50
the u.s talks about a war on terror00:31:52
they're fighting terrorists that they00:31:53
create it you know they're talking about00:31:56
war and terror they're00:31:57
killing some terrorists and aligning00:31:59
with others who have an overlapping of a00:32:01
common enemy until they're you know00:32:04
finished using them so it creates this00:32:06
situation where it's really hard for us00:32:07
in the west to imagine00:32:09
a war on terror as a legitimate thing so00:32:13
i think i've been going on i went a00:32:14
little bit off topic00:32:16
no not at all because so much of what00:32:17
you're saying actually is so similar to00:32:21
the situation in the middle east i mean00:32:22
when you talk about the way that salafi00:32:25
jihadism is the cultural genocide i mean00:32:28
i i've seen it in lebanon i've seen it00:32:30
in syria i've seen it in iraq um and00:32:33
those are just the parts of the region00:32:35
that i'm familiar with and spend time in00:32:37
where the situation and even certain00:32:39
cities00:32:40
changed over the course of a few years00:32:43
because of investment in salafi-jihadi00:32:45
mosques or in salafi mosques that00:32:48
ultimately do erase00:32:50
the local traditional00:32:52
culture and really drastically change00:32:55
society in an extremely regressive00:32:57
uh negative way00:32:59
and the other thing i wanted to comment00:33:01
on too is you know you mentioned00:33:04
uh how the war on terror with the us00:33:06
versus some people might have legitimate00:33:08
issues00:33:09
that00:33:10
can be considered like a real war on00:33:12
terror what's what's so ironic is and00:33:16
hypocritical is that the us and00:33:18
americans in general have been00:33:20
inculcated to00:33:21
feel that it's their right to fight this00:33:23
war on terror on the other side of the00:33:26
world when there's people that they call00:33:28
terrorists who exists nowhere near them00:33:30
i mean no like the us is is pretty uh00:33:33
you know safe uh and has like these00:33:36
natural you know borders of the ocean00:33:39
that protect it from the areas of the00:33:41
world where these groups exist whereas00:33:44
with countries like syria with lebanon00:33:47
with china it's it's inside their00:33:50
country like there actually is a threat00:33:51
a legitimate00:33:53
very real00:33:54
very violent threat and they're trying00:33:57
to find a way to deal with it that00:33:58
doesn't mean the way they're dealing00:33:59
with it is perfect but i i think that00:34:01
because of the last 20 years of00:34:04
disastrous u.s war on terror00:34:06
a lot of american progressives and00:34:08
leftists00:34:09
you know they've learned to understand00:34:11
the bush war on terror rhetoric as very00:34:14
wrong right we don't support this so00:34:17
they end up projecting that onto other00:34:19
countries00:34:20
where it's it doesn't necessarily fall00:34:22
under the same paradigm and so i'm just00:34:24
i'm just adding to what you were saying00:34:25
i guess there but00:34:27
i i wanted to ask you um00:34:29
you know how did you communicate with00:34:31
people do you speak any local languages00:34:34
i speak mandarin chinese so i can i00:34:36
usually speak to people there mandarin00:34:37
chinese a lot some of the older weakers00:34:39
there they don't really speak mandarin00:34:40
that well um they only speak um in their00:34:42
local dialect but yeah i i speak in00:34:45
chinese i want to pick up on a few of00:34:46
the things that you said as well you00:34:48
know um that that's a really important00:34:50
people for for for people to understand00:34:52
as well is these are countries that are00:34:54
dealing with the terrorism issue in00:34:55
their own countries they're not going00:34:57
into some other country and saying we're00:34:58
going to fix this this is something that00:35:00
they're doing that's within their rights00:35:01
of their own borders and then what00:35:04
they're doing also is they're not drone00:35:06
striking weddings they're not carpet00:35:09
bombing towns they're not picking up00:35:10
people and putting them in guantanamo00:35:12
bay and waterboarding them they're not00:35:14
humiliating them in places like abu00:35:16
ghraib they put training centers in00:35:18
place vocational training centers they00:35:19
had de-radicalization programs skills00:35:22
training they built infrastructure they00:35:23
did all of this stuff the real hardened00:35:25
kind of criminals they just went to00:35:26
prison directly obviously there are00:35:28
people who just were beyond00:35:30
any repair but there were different uh00:35:32
circumstances that would get people put00:35:34
into these vocational training centers00:35:36
if they were caught plotting an attack00:35:38
um or it was some sort of a minor attack00:35:40
not on people on a building if there00:35:42
were people who were serving a prison00:35:44
sentence for some sort of uh00:35:46
terrorism issue and they were coming00:35:47
towards the end of their uh their00:35:49
sentence they would be put through these00:35:50
programs to be reintroduced into society00:35:53
or if they were caught with extremist00:35:54
material uh terrorist material on their00:35:56
phones and stuff like that and if you00:35:58
look at for example in england i think00:36:00
it was last month or two months ago00:36:01
there was an ex-police officer who was00:36:03
caught with nazi abandoned nazi group00:36:05
material on his phone he went to prison00:36:06
there's no de-radicalization program but00:36:08
here they said okay you're caught with00:36:10
this stuff you've got to go through00:36:11
these programs they go home on the00:36:12
weekends they can take leave whenever00:36:14
they want i spoke with somebody who went00:36:16
through one of these programs as well00:36:17
and00:36:18
that is a pretty humanistic way of00:36:20
dealing with things even with that said00:36:22
i think there probably were some program00:36:24
problems with the programs i i would00:36:26
imagine personally i don't have any00:36:27
evidence for this but i would imagine00:36:29
now the numbers there's nothing to00:36:30
support the numbers of the millions that00:36:32
they were talking about if i was taking00:36:33
to take a guess i would say tens of00:36:34
thousands 100 000 at most if you00:36:36
consider that there's 10 00000:36:38
radicalized uyghurs in idlib fighting00:36:40
with you know isis and al qaeda a00:36:42
hundred thousand people who needed to go00:36:44
through uh uh um uh training in in00:36:47
china seems like a reasonable number00:36:49
which is also i wanna note because these00:36:51
radicalized people were going to syria00:36:53
and fighting a common enemy assad people00:36:55
like to turn a blind eye to it if these00:36:58
terrorists were leaving china and they00:37:00
were attacking the west they were00:37:01
killing your people's family in the west00:37:04
they were attacking uh00:37:06
the u.s allies all of a sudden00:37:09
they wouldn't be underplaying china's00:37:10
terrorism issue all of a sudden even if00:37:13
all the accusations about china's00:37:15
concentration camps you know so-called00:37:16
concentration camps were true it00:37:18
wouldn't matter that would be now00:37:20
downplayed and china would be painted as00:37:22
a country that's an exporter of00:37:23
terrorism that's you know wreaking havoc00:37:25
on the world all of a sudden it would00:37:26
change because the u.s has covered up00:37:28
much bigger atrocities than that you can00:37:30
look at east timor how much do they care00:37:32
about the people in east timor and all00:37:33
these places so um that was kind of the00:37:36
program that happened00:37:38
um and this was i mean the people there00:37:41
there there are people in xinjiang00:37:42
uyghurs uh mongols the uh kazakhs all00:37:45
these people they are really grateful00:37:48
that this was controlled at this point00:37:50
you know at that point um00:37:52
and00:37:53
when i put my video out i put a video00:37:55
out where i kind of semi-criticized00:37:56
china i was talking i was saying these00:37:58
are the things that make me00:37:59
uncomfortable about their program where00:38:01
i think i guess that probably some00:38:03
people were caught up and sent to these00:38:05
pro training programs who probably00:38:07
didn't deserve to be there i had a lot00:38:09
of muslim followers who reached out to00:38:11
me after that from egypt from pakistan00:38:14
from all these places and they actually00:38:16
criticized me they said i'm when i do00:38:18
that00:38:19
yeah they said when i do that00:38:22
my viewpoint is coming from a privileged00:38:24
society i grew up in canada they said00:38:26
you don't understand how this salafist00:38:28
jihadism spreads you don't understand00:38:29
the true danger of it you don't00:38:31
understand that we wish we had programs00:38:32
like this in iraq for example when00:38:34
terrorism was ripping through our00:38:35
country um and and so that was a really00:38:38
interesting perspective kind of uh uh00:38:41
changer for me also but yeah i mean you00:38:42
gotta gotta take a a step back and and00:38:44
pay attention to the entire situation00:38:47
yeah and uh just real quick i don't00:38:49
think we really uh covered it can you00:38:51
just give a very brief background on00:38:53
what the terrorism problem in xinjiang00:38:55
was that they were dealing with there00:38:56
was uh years there was like there was00:38:59
the several years of actual00:39:01
terrorist attacks carried out by uh the00:39:04
group whose name i'm now blanking on but00:39:05
go ahead yeah etim china still calls it00:39:08
by etim00:39:09
you know they've rebranded or a lot of00:39:11
people say no it's tip but whatever00:39:13
there's no discernible difference00:39:14
between the two really00:39:15
and um so they were carrying out00:39:17
terrorist attacks in china they wanted00:39:19
to separate out xinjiang if you actually00:39:21
speak to some of these terrorists and i00:39:23
have spoken to some of them00:39:25
and it's pretty scary what they want to00:39:26
do they want to take over xinjiang and00:39:28
they want to they want to ethnically00:39:30
cleanse xinjiang they'd say that all00:39:32
non-turkic ethnic minorities so00:39:35
non-kazakhs kurzick's uyghurs they would00:39:37
be expelled from xinjiang and even if00:39:40
they needed to be expelled by force so00:39:41
you're talking about mongols as well and00:39:43
i i specifically asked that i said00:39:44
mongols as well they said yeah well00:39:46
it'll be up to the uyghur authority00:39:48
mongols have been living in shinjan00:39:50
especially north of the tianjin00:39:51
mountains for longer than even the00:39:52
uyghurs have you know shinjang has been00:39:54
a multi-ethnic society for you know over00:39:57
a century uh and what these people want00:39:59
to do is they want to create a an ethno00:40:01
kind of a state00:40:03
ruled by a rule by sharia law so there00:40:06
were over a thousand terrorist attacks00:40:07
there were about 800 people who were00:40:08
killed um and eventually china said no00:40:11
we've really got to do something about00:40:12
this um00:40:14
so that's what they came in with all00:40:16
these programs00:40:17
for sure mass surveillance huge police00:40:19
presence and all that stuff i mean it's00:40:20
not you can't get rid of this stuff in a00:40:22
in a pretty way but still uh what i00:40:24
would consider a far more humanistic00:40:26
approach one thing to keep in mind too00:40:27
is that some people some of them they00:40:29
only have the goal to00:40:32
leave china and you know carry out a00:40:34
jihad somewhere else with other groups00:40:36
and that's where you see them going to00:40:37
syria they they go down they escape00:40:40
through00:40:41
to southeast asia they go to malaysia00:40:43
they go to the turkish embassy they get00:40:44
fake turkish passports they fly over to00:40:46
turkey and they're shuttled over to um00:40:48
they're shuttled over to syria and when00:40:51
i was talking to people there's one00:40:52
there's one journalist called allison00:40:53
killing she just won a pulitzer prize00:40:55
because she re reversed engineered uh a00:40:58
an article and a program to say that00:41:00
china could hold a million people if00:41:02
they wanted to like it was kind of00:41:04
reverse engineering this to say okay00:41:05
this is a possible scenario and that's00:41:08
what you know one of my friends says00:41:09
like the whole the whole narrative on00:41:11
xinjiang is this a sharpshooter fallacy00:41:14
where you know you have the bullet hole00:41:15
and then you paint the you paint the uh00:41:17
uh the target around it and you make it00:41:19
seem like yes that's exactly what's00:41:21
going on here that was really deliberate00:41:23
but00:41:24
yeah so00:41:25
when i asked her i said because she said00:41:26
etim00:41:28
there's not little evidence that etim00:41:30
exists so when i showed her videos of00:41:32
etim children training in camps that00:41:35
were built by isis when i showed her u.s00:41:38
generals admitting to doing airstrikes00:41:40
on etim in 2018 when i showed her all00:41:43
this i said well what what do you think00:41:44
is going on here and how do you explain00:41:46
all the uyghurs fighting in syria00:41:48
and she said well you know they only00:41:50
went to syria00:41:52
because they weren't able to stay in00:41:53
turkey00:41:54
and that's not even a little bit true00:41:58
not it's not like these they're00:41:59
apologists they're whitewashing it but00:42:01
obviously it creates an obvious question00:42:04
if everybody's so sure that the uyghurs00:42:06
are being persecuted like this and you00:42:07
have uyghurs who are stuck in turkey who00:42:09
only have two choices one is to go back00:42:11
to china and00:42:13
face apparent uh persecution00:42:15
or go to syria and have their children00:42:17
trained by terrorists and go around00:42:18
beheading people in the streets with00:42:20
al-qaeda and isis00:42:21
why aren't you opening up00:42:23
your countries to them why aren't you00:42:25
taking them as refugees00:42:27
try it try asking your politicians to00:42:29
take them00:42:30
absolutely no they know what china is00:42:32
saying is true if they're that far if00:42:33
they're there they know that these are00:42:35
radicalized people they know that00:42:36
they're going to go over to syria and00:42:37
cause chaos there and fight against a00:42:39
common enemy so like i said it's like00:42:41
have added once in a while they'll do00:42:42
some airstrikes and some superficial00:42:44
kind of attacks against them but more or00:42:46
less these are people00:42:47
that are00:42:49
helping them and may eventually go back00:42:50
to attack china afterwards or bare00:42:52
minimum belt and road initiative00:42:54
projects all around00:42:56
the world and when you saw the u.s00:42:58
suddenly de-list etim as a terrorist00:43:00
organization off of the terrorist list00:43:02
um was it earlier this year or or late00:43:04
last year00:43:05
that was a clear sign that they were00:43:07
giving this group their blessing when00:43:09
they were removed from the terrorist00:43:11
list all of a sudden people can donate00:43:12
money to them they can raise funds in00:43:14
u.s dollars they can try to say this00:43:16
isn't really a problem00:43:17
when it's really a huge problem for00:43:19
china you've seen it in the last cold00:43:21
war you know they were they they00:43:23
obviously work with the mujahideen00:43:24
against the soviet union this is a00:43:26
playbook they continually reuse over and00:43:28
over again and they don't want they00:43:30
don't want those uyghurs who got that00:43:32
far to turkey to be their problem they00:43:34
know what happened last time when they00:43:36
used western passport holding salafist00:43:38
jihadis to fight in libya against00:43:40
gaddafi they came home and they did the00:43:42
manchester bombing they did all of these00:43:44
things they don't want they don't they00:43:45
don't want to be their problem they know00:43:47
that okay these are these are allies00:43:49
that we're going to keep at arm's length00:43:51
so the people in power they know what's00:43:53
going on they know this is a legitimate00:43:55
threat if you don't believe me go and00:43:56
lobby your government to pick up those00:43:58
uyghurs from turkey and see what happens00:44:00
because the people in real power know00:44:02
that that's not going to happen once in00:44:03
a while you'll get somebody like cersei00:44:05
ziowadem who was a um a uyghur who was00:44:08
in turkey who had a story in the00:44:10
beginning her story wasn't that00:44:11
interesting she said she didn't really00:44:13
experience any abuse it was more00:44:15
psychological but it was pretty good she00:44:16
had her cell phone they had meals in the00:44:18
canteen00:44:20
and nobody really paid attention to her00:44:22
that was her buzzfeed interview in the00:44:23
beginning of 2020. then later on she00:44:25
upgraded her story to say that she was00:44:27
raped and tortured and she saw people00:44:29
killed and all this kind of stuff then00:44:30
she got front page coverage on cnn on00:44:32
bbc and she got ferried over to the u.s00:44:35
where she's now doing the niera circuit00:44:37
going on all these different you know00:44:38
government uh sponsored panels to talk00:44:41
about the horrors that she saw00:44:43
and her story just falls apart when you00:44:45
actually look at it her passport was00:44:46
renewed during the time that she said00:44:49
she was under arrest it's impossible you00:44:50
have to go in person to renew your00:44:52
passport is this i'm sorry00:44:54
did this person write a piece or was00:44:56
interviewed for a piece of the new00:44:57
yorker i saw something that something00:44:58
that sounds vaguely familiar or i read00:45:01
something vaguely familiar with a woman00:45:03
whose story didn't seem that like it00:45:05
didn't seem that crazy like she was00:45:08
under arrest and it was like it was like00:45:09
a mis it was a misunderstanding and00:45:12
ultimately she got out of it00:45:14
um but they tried to make it scarier00:45:16
than it was no no that was a different00:45:18
one that one was one uh from i think00:45:20
somebody who was in canada and a lot of00:45:22
what she wrote about seemed yeah a lot00:45:24
more realistic um00:45:27
and very unpleasant and like extremely00:45:29
inconvenient but it wasn't like rape and00:45:31
torture and okay so00:45:34
that was that was a story i looked at00:45:35
and i said that that might be possible00:45:37
that might have actually happened and00:45:39
it's a terrible situation and it00:45:41
shouldn't happen but it it still00:45:43
wouldn't be enough to start sanctioning00:45:46
xinjiang and to really attack china with00:45:48
you need stories like teresnay ziwad and00:45:49
this other person's but what i was00:45:51
saying was when you realized there was a00:45:53
big hole in her story that her passport00:45:55
was renewed while she was in these00:45:56
concentration camps apparently00:45:58
um00:46:00
bbc ran it and you could see the issues00:46:02
with the story and then cnn when it got00:46:03
to cnn who aired it afterwards they00:46:05
blurred out her passport renewal date00:46:07
which means which i'm assuming i00:46:09
remember okay i remember this yeah yeah00:46:11
they know that it's a massive hole in00:46:13
their story but they still want to push00:46:14
out they don't want to address this the00:46:16
bbc reached out to me because they00:46:18
wanted to do a hit piece on me and i00:46:19
said i'll engage with you i'll engage00:46:20
with all of your questions but can you00:46:22
tell me why you publish publish this00:46:24
story uncritically when there's all00:46:25
these holes in it you you answer me that00:46:27
question i'll answer all of your00:46:28
questions they refused to answer it00:46:31
there was a there was a a00:46:33
a survey or not a survey a petition on00:46:35
change.org with 4 000 signatures people00:46:38
asking the same question of the bbc why00:46:39
are you doing this because people saw00:46:41
that this was pro-wharf completely fake00:46:42
propaganda they refused to answer it and00:46:45
in the end the bbc dropped me from their00:46:46
article they didn't even want to engage00:46:47
with me anymore00:46:49
this guy's dangerous00:46:50
[Laughter]00:46:54
so so um you know going back to your00:46:57
time in xinjiang a lot of what we often00:47:00
hear and you explain the side of it of00:47:02
like okay these the salafi jihadist00:47:03
weaker group which by the way i should00:47:05
let people know i mean00:47:06
i actually have talked to their victims00:47:08
in syria i've talked they actually00:47:11
played a massive role the the turkistan00:47:13
islamic party that is the weaker00:47:15
separatist group that the usd listed00:47:18
they played a major role in acting as00:47:20
shock troops for al qaeda when they took00:47:22
over idlib and they actually took over00:47:25
the entire town uh in idlib called jizar00:47:29
and i met people who are from there and00:47:30
they're really angry because they not00:47:32
only can they no longer return to their00:47:34
homes uh their homes are now occupied by00:47:37
uyghurs from china i mean all right it's00:47:40
like if you want to talk about people00:47:41
wiping out local culture i mean there00:47:43
you have it um00:47:44
anyways so the you know00:47:47
the narrative we also hear is that of00:47:49
course xinjiang isn't all weaker as you00:47:50
mentioned mongols are there and other i00:47:52
think there's some other groups there's00:47:53
also a significant number of han chinese00:47:56
who are there00:47:57
and in u.s media and00:47:59
from people like adrian zens who we can00:48:01
talk about as well00:48:02
uh the narrative is that the han chinese00:48:05
are supremacists and they're very racist00:48:07
towards the uyghur uyghurs and they're00:48:09
being moved in to like replace them in00:48:11
xinjiang so my question for you is is00:48:14
there diversity00:48:15
in xinjiang00:48:17
um is did you notice any sort of attempt00:48:20
to impose one culture on people and00:48:22
actually i would i would extend that00:48:23
question to all of china because we hear00:48:26
that across china diversity is like very00:48:29
frowned upon and everybody needs to just00:48:31
you know absorb han chinese culture so00:48:34
what expressions of also you know muslim00:48:37
or other minority cultures are visible00:48:39
even beyond xinjiang in china00:48:42
yeah i mean you've got the hue muslims00:48:43
in china and before china really became00:48:45
a geopolitical target you could see00:48:46
really honest pieces being written about00:48:48
china where um i can't remember the00:48:52
uh the outlet but they were writing00:48:53
about how progressive islam is in china00:48:55
that they have these all-women mosques00:48:57
with female imams they have a history00:49:00
with this that goes beyond any other00:49:02
even like full-on muslim country00:49:04
um you know it's really celebrated here00:49:06
there was a so in terms of mixing and00:49:09
stuff like that a lot of the han chinese00:49:10
were moving into northern areas of um of00:49:13
xinjiang like areas that weren't really00:49:15
heavily populated populated by uyghurs00:49:18
and i spoke to some of them actually uh00:49:20
two months ago or something i had a taxi00:49:21
driver who was from xinjiang he was a00:49:23
han chinese he was born in00:49:26
xinjiang um i can't remember the the the00:49:29
town name but it's because his parents00:49:31
were moved there by the government they00:49:32
were workers who went to do this really00:49:34
really hard labor and xinjiang build it00:49:36
up but00:49:37
the interesting thing was they weren't00:49:38
given any land they weren't given any00:49:40
kind of agricultural land or things like00:49:42
that where the uyghurs this is their00:49:44
local land they have their own land in00:49:46
the south especially they're growing a00:49:48
lot of their own cotton which is a00:49:49
really important thing to note as well00:49:51
so many uyghurs in the south own their00:49:53
own plot of land where they grow cotton00:49:55
they rely on it for their source of00:49:57
income so when the u.s starts00:49:58
sanctioning cotton00:50:00
without any real evidence of this forced00:50:01
labor thing when you look through the00:50:03
forced labor reports and you you00:50:04
actually examine it they're ridiculous00:50:07
they know exactly what they're doing00:50:08
sanctions as you know with how they work00:50:10
they're designed to push people into00:50:13
poverty push people into situations00:50:15
where they're discontent and they rise00:50:16
up against their own government there's00:50:18
an additional element in xinjiang where00:50:21
uh it's been proven over and over over00:50:23
with uh different studies the world bank00:50:24
did a study on this as well00:50:27
in an environment of poverty and00:50:29
unemployment it's a breeding ground for00:50:32
extremism it's a very conducive to um00:50:35
to kind of breed extremists00:50:37
so you can you you add that together00:50:40
with the fact that the us delisted etim00:50:42
as a terrorist organization gave them00:50:43
their blessings then they try to do all00:50:45
of these sanctions on xinjiang because00:50:46
they know that one of the biggest00:50:48
successes in xinjiang to eliminating00:50:50
this extremism was opportunities00:50:52
infrastructure jobs skills trainings all00:50:55
this kind of stuff so how do you take00:50:56
that away okay let's sanction them let's00:50:58
sanction their their cotton okay now00:51:00
let's sanction their high-tech industry00:51:02
the uh um the solar panels oh let's say00:51:05
we received uh what was it 30 tons of00:51:08
human hair something like that there was00:51:10
a shipment that went into the u.s there00:51:11
was no follow-up because they were it00:51:13
was it was apparently synthetic here but00:51:14
they said no it might be real here there00:51:16
was no follow-up on whether they tested00:51:18
it but when you really looked at the00:51:19
claims by radio free asia and stuff like00:51:21
that and you looked at how many tons of00:51:23
hair was being shipped or and how much00:51:25
money was being generated by hair from00:51:28
uighur women it doesn't even add up when00:51:30
you look at the uyghur population unless00:51:32
when you go to xinjiang there's going to00:51:33
be bald uyghur women everywhere and i00:51:35
didn't see a single bald eager woman you00:51:38
know it's just these ridiculous stories00:51:39
but the um the whole premise is to00:51:43
sanction um xinjiang take these00:51:45
opportunities away and bring this00:51:47
extremism back but the local culture is00:51:50
really being to answer the other part of00:51:51
your question is really being practiced00:51:52
there and one thing you just have to00:51:54
look at is with all of these narratives00:51:56
about inner mongolia the mongolian00:51:58
culture being taken away or all these00:51:59
different places in china these00:52:02
sub-communities often times00:52:05
more often than not their local culture00:52:07
is preserved even better than it is back00:52:10
in their home country in mongolia00:52:12
in inner mongolia they're still using00:52:14
the original mongolian script they're00:52:16
not even using that in mongolia anymore00:52:18
if you talk about uh kirk kyrgic's00:52:20
people when they go to kyrgyzstan the00:52:22
people in kyrgyzstan all the young00:52:24
people there they don't even know how to00:52:25
speak their own language anymore they00:52:26
only speak russian but in china they're00:52:28
still speaking their local language you00:52:30
have all these pockets of people who00:52:33
their culture has been preserved in00:52:34
china even more than it has in their00:52:37
original ancestral homes and that by00:52:39
itself should really tell people00:52:41
something00:52:42
i'm curious if when you were in xinjiang00:52:44
did you see any00:52:47
evidence of the impact of sanctions00:52:50
or is china it seems like china has so00:52:53
far managed to00:52:55
not be so affected by them because of00:52:57
local consumption um but i don't know i00:53:00
also see stories about some uyghur00:53:02
saying you know they've lost their jobs00:53:04
because you know00:53:06
their factory can't afford them anymore00:53:07
because they lost international buyers00:53:09
for their cotton00:53:11
i'm not you know i'm hearing mixed00:53:13
things um you know i think that a lot of00:53:15
exports are still happening to europe um00:53:17
i i think it's still doing pretty well00:53:19
some companies you know if they had00:53:21
specific business or their primary00:53:23
businesses the with the us i would00:53:24
imagine that those companies would00:53:26
suffer more than others but there's00:53:27
another trickle-on effect a lot of00:53:30
uyghurs who work in the rest of china in00:53:33
western companies also you know00:53:35
contractors to apple and all these00:53:36
people00:53:37
a lot of these companies have come out00:53:39
with a new policy where they're not00:53:40
going to hire weaker workers anymore00:53:42
and the reason is yeah yeah and the00:53:44
reason is is because they can't afford00:53:46
the possible accusations they're going00:53:48
to have when somebody takes a video in00:53:49
their factory and they see there's a00:53:50
weaker worker there because without any00:53:53
threshold for evidence without any proof00:53:56
they're going to say that oh look they00:53:58
have a forced laborer here who was00:53:59
probably transferred from xinjiang so00:54:01
they're losing their job opportunities00:54:02
and a lot of these western companies00:54:04
it's doing exactly what the u.s wants00:54:06
they want to they don't want to help the00:54:07
uyghurs they want to take away00:54:08
opportunities from them and they want to00:54:10
create an environment where there'll be00:54:12
unrest in china you know we look at the00:54:14
bigger picture that we i guess we've got00:54:16
to zoom out and you know why does the us00:54:17
want to do this like you said they're00:54:19
going to overtake the us economically00:54:21
countries in the global south all of a00:54:22
sudden don't have a single monopolistic00:54:24
partner to deal with who's very brutal00:54:26
with the way that they deal with them00:54:27
they have another choice now a country00:54:29
that doesn't interfere with their local00:54:30
politics you know you um you have the00:54:33
digital rem b coming because the u.s has00:54:36
weaponized the us dollar for so long00:54:37
that they've created an incentive for an00:54:39
alternative and china might be filling00:54:41
that alternative you don't mess around00:54:43
with us dollar hegemony if you want to00:54:45
you know to use the famous phrase google00:54:47
uighurs if you want to see what happens00:54:49
when you challenge the us dollar google00:54:50
gaddafi you know00:54:53
yeah um yeah and so i want to go to the issue00:54:56
of so so basically what what you're00:54:57
saying is00:54:58
what we're hearing in the u.s is00:55:00
genocide and mass sterilization and mass00:55:02
rape and this attempt to00:55:05
destroy uighur culture is actually a00:55:07
de-radicalization program which00:55:09
certainly might have his missteps but00:55:10
it's being totally00:55:12
blown out of proportion and00:55:15
sensationalized and lied about00:55:17
and who like who's behind these claims00:55:19
like you know there's one figure i a lot00:55:21
of listeners and viewers have probably00:55:22
heard of adrian's ends he's the german00:55:24
far-right00:55:25
sort of christian fanatic who works with00:55:27
the victims of communism fund victims of00:55:29
communism which by the way now considers00:55:31
every coveted death in the world a00:55:33
victim of communism00:55:36
nazi deaths at the hands of the soviets00:55:38
are also victims of uh00:55:40
exactly nazi deaths are victims of00:55:42
communism um so that tells you as much00:55:44
as you need to know about that00:55:45
organization so we know about adrian's00:55:47
ends there's also seems to be this00:55:49
network of00:55:50
of us mostly u.s funded although00:55:52
australian as well uighur organizations00:55:55
um of sort of like uighur exiles which00:55:58
are pushing these claims and lobbying00:56:00
governments and receiving funding from00:56:01
the state department00:56:03
uh and things like this00:56:05
why are they doing this like what00:56:06
ultimately we know but i'd love to hear00:56:08
you break it down because you've00:56:10
explained i've heard you explain it00:56:11
really well why why are we hearing these00:56:13
outrageous claims when they're not true00:56:15
what what so there's so many different00:56:17
layers here so with the u.s00:56:19
state-sponsored kind of narrative00:56:20
they're pumping millions of dollars into00:56:22
this narrative which by the way00:56:25
any time we know already everybody knows00:56:28
the u.s lies for geopolitical reasons00:56:31
they create false flag attacks they00:56:32
deploy fake wit fake witness testimonies00:56:35
they lie about uh atrocities while00:56:37
covering up their own atrocities they00:56:39
lie about weapons of mass destruction00:56:41
they00:56:42
and not not by mistake they literally00:56:44
tell you the opposite of what00:56:46
intelligence reports are saying we know00:56:47
this over and over again so the moment00:56:50
that something is funded there's a00:56:51
narrative that's funded by the u.s00:56:53
government even if it's only one dollar00:56:54
even if it's only one dollar you should00:56:56
immediately be skeptical you don't have00:56:58
to completely disregard it but at least00:57:00
have your guard up and look into the00:57:01
claims so the us's interest is obviously00:57:04
to discredit um china to prevent them00:57:07
from being able to grow their00:57:08
partnerships in a meaningful way you saw00:57:10
when pompeo was flying around the world00:57:11
asking people not to use huawei systems00:57:13
because maybe they'll use it to spy on00:57:16
them just like the us uses their00:57:17
equipment to spy on angela merkel and00:57:19
all this stuff they're saying that maybe00:57:21
china will do the stuff that we do to00:57:22
you um you know so it's about00:57:24
discrediting china derailing their00:57:26
progress trying to slow them down um00:57:30
and uh so that would be that part now uh00:57:32
the think tanks in australia like uh00:57:34
aspie for example they're funded yes by00:57:36
the u.s state department but they're00:57:37
also funded by weapons manufacturers00:57:39
like boeing and lockheed martin raytheon00:57:41
all these people and so what they do is00:57:43
they create china threat stories they00:57:45
also say wow chinese missiles can reach00:57:47
australia now which they can and all00:57:49
this different kind of stuff00:57:51
and then what they end up doing is they00:57:52
then sell weapons to the australian00:57:55
government china threat prevention00:57:56
weapons on the backs of the china threat00:57:58
stories that they just finished00:58:00
manufacturing so there's a lot of money00:58:01
being passed around with this i mean00:58:02
look look look in iraq you know um00:58:05
when uh00:58:06
you know who what was that 100 billion00:58:09
dollars were passed around to security00:58:11
contractors um you know one of the00:58:13
biggest winners halliburton which was00:58:15
dick cheney's you know x company that he00:58:17
was the ceo of there's a lot of money00:58:19
that00:58:20
gets passed around00:58:21
there was a winner in afghanistan it was00:58:23
also the weapons manufacturers look at00:58:25
what happened to their stock prices00:58:26
since 2001. so there's that incentive as00:58:29
well but then the other piece is that a00:58:31
lot of this propaganda like the four00:58:34
sterilizations the labor camps and all00:58:36
this stuff it's recycled jihadist00:58:39
propaganda this is actually one of the00:58:41
reasons so many muslim countries side00:58:43
with china you always hear about 20 some00:58:46
odd countries in the u.n who condemned00:58:48
china's treatment of muslims in xinjiang00:58:50
but you never hear about the media00:58:52
talking about the 54 other countries00:58:54
that said no they actually approve of00:58:55
what they're doing they think they're00:58:56
doing a good job this is something that00:58:58
you know they're they're00:59:00
adhering to human rights and everything00:59:02
like that when they do this and many of00:59:04
them were muslim countries00:59:06
and again those muslims who reach out to00:59:07
me i talk to them and i try to00:59:08
understand why is it they support this00:59:10
so one is what i already explained to00:59:12
you they understand the threat of this00:59:14
kind of uh salafist jihadism ideology00:59:17
but the other thing too is they've seen00:59:18
this propaganda before used over and00:59:21
over again they used it in egypt as well00:59:22
they were saying that the christians00:59:23
were sterilizing the muslims and to this00:59:25
day in universities christians can't it00:59:27
was either teach or or learn uh00:59:30
obstetrics in universities00:59:32
i didn't even know that because00:59:33
because of those rumors have persisted00:59:35
and it was a group that wanted to00:59:37
separate a piece of land off of off from00:59:39
egypt also they were talking about the00:59:41
destruction of mosques everything was00:59:43
identical and so when they see this00:59:45
propaganda against china they're like we00:59:46
we've seen this before the only00:59:48
difference this time is western media is00:59:49
helping these jihadists prop this up00:59:52
which is also a rallying call which is00:59:54
also used for their um for getting other00:59:57
people on board for recruitment um01:00:00
to join this cause so there's a there's01:00:02
a whole bunch of different angles at01:00:04
play here as to what are the possible uh01:00:07
motives behind pushing this propaganda01:00:09
and then there is also the belt and road01:00:12
initiative which is another layer right01:00:13
um and if i'm not if i'm not mistaken01:00:16
xinjiang is a01:00:18
important part of this uh belt and rose01:00:20
initiative in terms of infrastructure no01:00:23
oh yeah it's a key doorway of course01:00:24
yeah i mean that that leads through to a01:00:26
lot of the countries that these01:00:27
infrastructure projects are going01:00:28
through it's extremely important for the01:00:29
belt and road initiative which again01:00:31
ties into their partnerships with the01:00:33
global south which and when we're01:00:36
talking about countries that for over a01:00:37
century01:00:38
have been remarkably remarkably been01:00:40
able to supply01:00:42
the west with the most precious01:00:44
materials on our earth while having the01:00:45
poorest people on our planet you know01:00:47
something isn't right it's imperialism01:00:49
yeah yeah so now all of a sudden you01:00:51
have a partner that comes in they're01:00:53
willing to come with a bit more of a01:00:54
win-win situation now that's being01:00:56
propagandized also one of the biggest01:00:57
myths is the sri lanka port and i won't01:00:59
get into that into detail but you can01:01:01
look up how all of these things are01:01:02
myths about not creating local drop nut01:01:05
jobs not actually benefiting the local01:01:07
economy no it's actually having benefit01:01:09
that's why the propaganda is going to01:01:11
overdrive and that's why you all of a01:01:12
sudden saw a mad rush from european01:01:14
countries to suddenly apologize for01:01:17
their colonial-era crimes01:01:19
like they're01:01:20
you know it's all honestly looks like01:01:21
they're an ex-abusive partner saying no01:01:23
please don't leave just give me one more01:01:25
chance you know01:01:26
that's it's true germany recently01:01:28
apologized to like namibia but then they01:01:30
were like people giving reparations01:01:34
yeah we're just really sorry can you01:01:36
please yeah we're sorry sorry guys sorry01:01:39
um after like01:01:42
yeah so this is i mean01:01:44
there are so many01:01:46
corporations western corporations that01:01:48
benefit from a monop from having01:01:50
monopolistic power over these countries01:01:53
and they're going to be losing that soon01:01:54
they're going to be losing that um and01:01:56
and that's uh01:01:57
and the u.s military has been deployed01:02:00
over and over again to protect corporate01:02:02
interests whether it be you know british01:02:04
petroleum and iran whether it be all the01:02:06
way from the beginning of america's01:02:08
history when they were going out and01:02:09
scraping guano off of the islands in the01:02:12
south pacific for fertilizer for their01:02:14
country you know america was built on01:02:15
this and their military was protecting01:02:18
these corporations so i think that's01:02:19
what you see there's a lot of corporate01:02:21
there's a lot of corporate interests at01:02:22
risk here um so01:02:25
belton road is an important part of that01:02:27
network that's going to help uh china01:02:29
cooperate with these countries that were01:02:31
exploited so long by the uh by the west01:02:33
and also i just i i should note the u.s01:02:36
uh01:02:37
budget office i might be wrong i think01:02:39
it's like the budget office actually01:02:41
like declared a crazy amount of money01:02:44
like hundreds of millions of dollars01:02:45
literally just to propagandize against01:02:47
the belt and road initiative of course01:02:49
they put it in a different language than01:02:50
that go ahead yeah it was 200 or 30001:02:52
million dollars per year for a period of01:02:54
seven years in propaganda01:02:57
against china i mean imagine if they put01:02:59
that into like infrastructure or01:03:00
actually yeah heating instead you know01:03:03
when china goes into these countries01:03:05
they go go into these african countries01:03:07
there's a few things that people need to01:03:08
keep in mind01:03:10
if china's options are so brutal and so01:03:13
exploitative and01:03:15
debt trap diplomacy and all this kind of01:03:17
stuff how much worse do your options01:03:19
need to be that they're choosing china01:03:21
over you01:03:22
and instead of investing in propaganda01:03:25
why don't you just come to the table01:03:27
with better options you know when when01:03:30
china goes into the global south and i01:03:32
see all these countries that have been01:03:33
exploited for so long i don't i don't01:03:35
hope that china takes over the world or01:03:36
becomes the number one superpower you01:03:38
know whether that happens or not that's01:03:39
not what i was hoping would happen is it01:03:41
would create an environment of01:03:43
accountability01:03:44
where there's a there's first of all a01:03:46
chance to improve and then second01:03:49
there's a chance for two different01:03:50
powers or multiple powers to compete for01:03:52
business in the global south on more01:03:55
fair terms and you're seeing that01:03:56
already in in central america as well01:03:59
where you know central american01:04:00
countries are01:04:01
going to china even some of them you01:04:03
know even some of the people in the01:04:04
government who think it is01:04:06
diplomacy they're saying you know at the01:04:08
end of the day we need this01:04:09
infrastructure we we don't we don't have01:04:10
the expertise to build it ourselves and01:04:12
we know that china is not going to come01:04:14
in and assassinate our leaders they're01:04:15
not going to come in and overthrow our01:04:17
government they don't you know because01:04:19
china i mean the big difference that i01:04:20
often hear from people around the world01:04:23
in the in in third world countries is01:04:25
that you know china will literally work01:04:27
with any country regardless of how its01:04:29
system functions01:04:30
it's not in whereas the u.s is like no01:04:32
you have to meet these conditions you01:04:34
have to be in neoliberal economy and if01:04:36
you're not you have to neo-liberalize01:04:38
you have to privatize everything and01:04:39
then maybe we'll consider doing business01:04:41
with you but even then they don't build01:04:42
anything and then on top of not building01:04:45
anything in other countries and putting01:04:46
all this money into anti-china01:04:47
propaganda01:04:49
they actually bully governments01:04:51
uh to to force them like not to go into01:04:54
business with china for example like01:04:56
lebanon where i live and where i am01:04:58
right now is in desperate need01:05:00
of investment in its infrastructure and01:05:02
it has a collapsing economy it can't do01:05:04
anything on its own right now i mean the01:05:05
government the country is in complete01:05:06
free fall it's a disaster uh and i told01:05:09
you we talked a little bit about it01:05:10
before because i told you i have01:05:11
electricity cuts that i had to schedule01:05:13
this interview around and china actually01:05:15
months ago when trump was still in01:05:17
office01:05:18
uh had offered to01:05:20
work on some infrastructure potential01:05:22
investment in infrastructure and the us01:05:24
have prevented it the u.s got the but01:05:26
they're also not doing anything as an01:05:28
alternative so they just bully these01:05:30
weak governments and i think the other01:05:32
thing about china that is01:05:34
uh a threat on um01:05:37
on more of an in more of an abstract way01:05:39
is the fact that china was for so long01:05:42
this very poor country01:05:44
that has alleviated so much poverty or01:05:47
all extreme poverty if i'm not mistaken01:05:50
and it and it did it without being any01:05:53
without the neoliberal capitalist model01:05:56
um01:05:57
and01:05:58
just as an example is a threat because01:06:00
that's what other countries look at01:06:02
other countries in africa and the middle01:06:03
east they see that as something really01:06:06
positive that they want to emulate and01:06:08
of course that's a huge challenge to the01:06:10
hegemony of u.s monopoly capital but01:06:13
um or u.s finance capital but i wanted01:06:16
to ask you01:06:17
about the criticisms you've received01:06:19
because um you know people mostly from01:06:22
these anti-china organizations some of01:06:23
which you mentioned01:06:25
have actually like written about you01:06:27
it's kind of amazing you should feel01:06:29
flattered the amount of01:06:35
yeah01:06:36
so you should feel flattered because01:06:37
what that means is that you're you're an01:06:39
effective per your what your narrative01:06:41
and what you're saying is effective and01:06:43
it's actually informing people01:06:45
uh against you know this this01:06:48
all this propaganda but i've seen a lot01:06:50
of this stuff written about you and of01:06:52
course the some of the01:06:53
things they'll say is you know they'll01:06:54
say oh you have this big social media01:06:56
following on platforms that are banned01:06:59
in china01:07:00
and the only way you could do that is if01:07:02
the ccp like was was allowing you to01:07:05
because they're funding you01:07:07
um and that you're just a stooge so i01:07:09
wanted to give you an opportunity01:07:10
because i'm sure at least one person01:07:11
will comment on this video and be like01:07:13
oh he's a stooge of the ccp01:07:17
how do you respond to those criticisms01:07:20
you know what01:07:21
you01:07:22
so i usually have i usually don't01:07:24
address them01:07:26
but what i find is and i'll go into a01:07:28
more uh detailed answer but what i want01:07:30
to say to those people is01:07:32
assume all those things are true fine01:07:35
assume that's true if you think that01:07:37
that's why i'm doing this if you think01:07:38
that i'm i'm really funded by the the01:07:40
chinese government and i'm doing this as01:07:42
some sort of a gift it should be so much01:07:44
easier to address my arguments my01:07:46
arguments would be superficial so why01:07:48
can't you actually engage with them like01:07:50
tell me where you think i'm lying01:07:53
come up with a rebuttal i said the same01:07:55
thing to some of these other journalists01:07:57
that reached out to me because when01:07:58
these journalists when they reach out to01:07:59
anti-china people01:08:01
they ask them meaningful questions about01:08:03
well how did you come to this conclusion01:08:04
what's your thought process behind this01:08:06
then they contact pro-china people01:08:08
they're like how does it feel to be a01:08:09
you know a a tool of the chinese01:08:12
communist party it's like really like01:08:14
you've gotten01:08:15
mainstream media has gotten the01:08:17
narrative wrong on geopolitics so many01:08:19
times you a lot of people are losing01:08:21
trust in these outlets don't you think01:08:22
it's a bit it's about time you start01:08:24
engaging both sides of an argument in an01:08:26
equally honest way but no i mean i'm not01:08:28
i i do this all on my own this actually01:08:30
takes away from my business my my main01:08:33
business so i i have a brew pub here i i01:08:36
brew beer and i also do some trading and01:08:38
investing and stuff like that and a lot01:08:40
of people say that oh that's that's why01:08:42
i do it like i have a local brew pub do01:08:44
you think i'm gonna sell my beer01:08:45
internationally from my own fame or01:08:47
something like that01:08:49
you've gotta you've gotta come to01:08:51
shenzhen in the location and drink my01:08:53
beer you really think i'm going to be01:08:54
benefiting from this or do you think i01:08:56
can only operate a bar here with with a01:08:59
chinese communist party permission also01:09:00
and everybody every foreigner who owns a01:09:02
bar in china and many there are are some01:09:04
sort of ccp shill as well i mean the01:09:07
argument doesn't make sense um it was01:09:10
annoying at first because actually i put01:09:11
a lot of money my own money into this i01:09:14
don't i don't make anything from this01:09:16
most of my videos recently i even turned01:09:19
the uh uh i even monetization off01:09:21
i turned the monetization off in part01:09:23
because i'm like that's not my main01:09:25
source of income to begin with i'm doing01:09:27
this be passionate about speaking up and01:09:29
also because the u.s started charging01:09:30
taxes on01:09:32
on overseas content creators if your ads01:09:34
are played to americans and i don't i01:09:36
don't want to thank01:09:37
the us government so i'm like oh okay01:09:40
i don't i don't have a i don't have a01:09:42
patreon wait even you're not even01:09:44
american they charge everybody like you youtube01:09:47
youtube came out with a new thing where01:09:49
any of your ads that are played to u.s01:09:51
viewers are going to be taxed uh uh01:09:54
they're going to be taxed because yeah01:09:56
yeah we can't we can't tax billionaires01:09:58
of an america but we'll tax content01:10:00
creators01:10:05
yeah but but i don't i would i would01:10:08
like to to make this bigger and i'm01:10:10
really cautious about it like if i ever01:10:12
did a patreon or something like that it01:10:13
would be solely to build a team around01:10:15
this this is me one person i don't have01:10:17
any help whatsoever that's impressive01:10:19
too it's quite you're quite good at it01:10:21
like i know you know the video the the01:10:24
effort that goes into editing a video01:10:26
and actually like01:10:27
inserting clips and writing scripts and01:10:30
doing segments is a lot01:10:32
it's a lot it's a lot of work and it01:10:34
takes away from my time that i could be01:10:36
spending on something else so this is i01:10:38
spend money on this i'm putting money01:10:40
and time into this um because at the end01:10:42
of the day i'm just i'm i'm really angry01:10:45
at how this global narrative works uh01:10:48
you know the like i said the us01:10:50
destroyed my mother's country back then01:10:51
as well and they keep destroying country01:10:53
over count after country after country01:10:55
and i think people should speak up01:10:57
and the unfortunate thing is there's so01:10:59
many mechanisms in place to shut people01:11:01
up as well and this is where i want to01:11:03
get into where i said i i appreciate01:11:05
what you do because01:11:06
it the the mechanisms in place create an01:11:08
interesting situation so i speak up01:11:10
about xinjiang and what i'm called is01:11:12
i'm called a genocide denier because i'm01:11:14
just giving you know giving out facts01:11:16
i'm telling people what i see on the01:11:17
ground01:11:18
now01:11:19
when i see other lies being perpetuated01:11:22
elsewhere when i see things that i'm01:11:23
suspicious about for example in syria01:11:26
if i start saying well hold on a second01:11:28
and i start like asking questions about01:11:30
the syrian native now i'll be called um01:11:33
an assad apologist i think that's what01:11:34
that people go with you know and it's01:11:36
like i've already got this stigma to01:11:38
shake people are calling me that's the01:11:40
last thing i need to deal with you know01:11:43
so so it creates it creates these01:11:44
bubbles where you stay in your lane01:11:47
so you solve sensor you end up01:11:48
self-censoring yeah i live in china this01:11:51
is what i'm going to talk about but then01:11:53
when you see this other stuff i think01:11:55
you got to break out and not be afraid01:11:57
of that criticism when i see what's01:11:58
happening in syria when i see and01:12:00
there's a crossover too because there's01:12:01
uyghurs there as well and when you see01:12:03
these moderate rebels who are driving01:12:05
around in pickup trucks with cages on01:12:08
the back with nuns in them and they were01:12:10
driving around with them to01:12:12
disincent01:12:14
assad from doing an airstrike on them01:12:16
it's like well hold on a second i01:12:17
thought i thought assad just airstrikes01:12:19
everyone and he doesn't care he's this01:12:20
brutal person so these terrorists know01:12:22
that that's an incentive to not01:12:25
air strike them or when in germany they01:12:27
block people from going to vote in the01:12:29
election it's like well hold on a second01:12:30
what's going on here and then you have01:12:32
to go to like a russian station to see01:12:34
that oh there were actually people01:12:35
protesting outside of the01:12:37
syrian consulate in germany who are01:12:39
pro-assad i thought they were escaping01:12:41
assad oh turns out they left idlib and01:12:44
they were running away from america's01:12:46
moderate rebels and all these things01:12:48
where01:12:49
um i think people need to cross over a01:12:51
little bit and say there's so many01:12:53
things that you're lied about01:12:54
that they're lying about all the time so01:12:55
that's why what i appreciate about you01:12:57
you cover syria you cover all of these01:12:59
areas but you're willing to go across01:13:01
and say you know what something smells01:13:03
fishy about this xinjiang narrative and01:13:05
i'm going to talk about it i know i'm01:13:06
going to be called a genocide denier and01:13:07
now i'm just going to be an all-round01:13:09
like you know daniel you know but i'll01:13:12
be honest with you like i totally know01:13:14
exactly what you're talking about as01:13:15
well because you know i was obviously01:13:17
very outspoken on syria and i got called01:13:19
everything i think i even lost jobs over01:13:21
it and syria is something that impacted01:13:23
me very personally i have family in01:13:24
syria um01:13:26
and they were not they were not thrilled01:13:28
about america's moderate rebels01:13:31
um but the point is is you know i01:13:33
actually will admit like for a little01:13:35
while i stayed away the xinjiang01:13:38
narrative because i'm like i already01:13:39
have to be called an assadist every day01:13:41
of my life like i just don't want to01:13:43
have to be called this too but yeah it's01:13:46
you know even01:13:47
it actually does have an impact this01:13:49
name calling and this sort of01:13:50
reputational01:13:52
character assassination uh has an01:13:54
absolute impact and i think you know i'm01:13:56
i've been a big fan of yours as well01:13:58
it's very the feeling is mutual and i01:13:59
think you're in a really cool position01:14:01
because you don't have to worry about01:14:03
that so much like01:14:04
it's like you're not in the world of01:14:06
like having to depend on01:14:08
u.s media outlets to to you know for01:14:10
your livelihood so you know and that's01:14:12
another thing that's probably really01:14:14
aggravating for those who attack you is01:14:15
they don't have an employer they can01:14:18
call to be like01:14:20
to be like we don't want this guy to be01:14:21
employed anymore he's a genocide denier01:14:24
oh yeah that would happen if i was in01:14:26
the west i would not be speaking up if i01:14:28
needed to have a regular job in the west01:14:30
i would not speak up and it's really01:14:32
ironic people say that oh i can only be01:14:34
pro-china because i'm in china i can't01:14:36
say bad things about the government i01:14:37
have criticized the government before01:14:39
actually even it was published in01:14:40
chinese state media as well01:14:42
but they say well overall you need to01:14:44
have a positive position because you're01:14:45
in china well no those people who are01:14:48
criticizing me they need to be01:14:49
criticizing me they need to be on that01:14:51
side of the narrative if they want to01:14:52
stay employable in the west so they're01:14:54
it's the exact same problem for them as01:14:56
soon as01:14:57
if if if bbc did that hit piece on me or01:14:59
al jazeera did that hit piece on me um01:15:01
and i did a response video on it and i'm01:15:03
working a regular corporate job in the01:15:05
west and my boss comes to me says daniel01:15:07
why why is al jazeera calling you a01:15:09
shill for the chinese communist party01:15:11
you know i don't01:15:12
i don't think this is gonna work out01:15:13
anymore you know01:15:15
i would be i would not i would not speak01:15:17
up and i know so many people and this is01:15:19
where a lot of people01:15:21
regularly chat with me they give me01:15:23
their ideas they send me things that01:15:25
they've noticed01:15:27
and they would really like to speak up01:15:28
also but they live in the west they live01:15:30
in australia they live in america they01:15:31
live in canada they can't speak up they01:15:33
can't fight back against this narrative01:15:35
without consequences for themselves and01:15:36
that's ironic and they're they're saying01:15:38
that i'm the one who's living in this01:15:40
society where i don't have free speech01:15:41
or i'm only saying this because i have01:15:43
to say it like that01:15:44
have some reflection people you know01:15:46
yeah a lot of it ends up being just this01:15:48
like projection a hundred percent um you01:15:51
know i wanted to very briefly because i01:15:53
know like i've had you for a very long01:15:54
time and you probably have a lot of01:15:56
other things you need to go get to but01:15:58
since i do have you on and you do live01:15:59
in china i was curious to ask you about01:16:02
the issue of poverty alleviation um and01:16:07
like you know you've lived in i don't01:16:08
know how much time you've spent in the01:16:10
us because canada doesn't really have01:16:11
the same level of01:16:13
sort of in-your-face uh homelessness and01:16:15
poverty that even nice gorgeous u.s01:16:18
cities have um but01:16:20
like in china do you see the sort of01:16:22
poverty that you see in the west do you01:16:24
see because we do hear that china's01:16:26
eliminated extreme poverty and i think01:16:27
that's really amazing01:16:28
and rather than demonizing china i feel01:16:30
like we should be asking how did they do01:16:32
that and what can we do to emulate some01:16:34
of those you know clearly successful01:16:36
programs but is homelessness a problem01:16:39
because every time i go back to the us i01:16:41
feel like i'm walking over homeless01:16:42
people01:16:44
yeah i mean01:16:45
when i first came to china in 2008 you01:16:47
would definitely see homeless people01:16:49
more often you'd see01:16:51
not not it's not like it's major issue01:16:53
even back then like you see one or two01:16:54
in the downtown area or something like01:16:56
that01:16:57
or beggars or something like that you01:16:59
really don't see that anymore you might01:17:01
still see some people who just do that01:17:03
to make some extra cash or something01:17:04
like that but i i honestly can't01:17:06
remember the last time i saw somebody on01:17:08
the street uh maybe01:17:10
uh01:17:11
i mean it honestly must be like four01:17:12
years ago five years ago or something01:17:14
like wow um01:17:16
yeah i mean if they are out there i01:17:18
don't know where they are but you can01:17:19
see a continual improvement in life now01:17:21
a lot of people always point to the fact01:17:22
that they say oh well the threshold is01:17:24
like two dollars a day or something like01:17:25
that but people have to understand as01:17:27
part of the poverty alleviation efforts01:17:29
home ownership or people who have a plot01:17:32
of land in their village is very high01:17:33
here they're people who live on their01:17:35
own land they're self-sustained they01:17:37
have all kinds of other social benefits01:17:38
that come along with just you know01:17:41
different kinds of health care and all01:17:42
this stuff they can live01:17:44
comfortably on the amounts that they set01:17:47
and in many ways the threshold is much01:17:49
higher compared to other places when you01:17:51
take all of that into consideration01:17:53
um01:17:54
you know i know yeah i know a guy in my01:17:56
wife's village he's just you know a lazy01:17:58
guy who didn't really do anything and01:18:00
he's taken care of as well he's got a01:18:01
little house he should be yeah in the01:18:02
village01:18:03
um and you know01:18:06
it's uh01:18:07
and then when you hear stories from you01:18:09
know my wife's generation growing up the01:18:11
continual improvement in life like back01:18:14
then they had absolutely nothing um01:18:16
people are really uh01:18:19
you know i mean it's really impressive01:18:20
what they've done here so the poverty01:18:22
levy alleviation efforts absolutely i01:18:24
mean they're they're 100 real um i think01:18:27
there's probably still a lot more work01:18:28
to be done but you're right the west01:18:29
should be looking at okay what is it01:18:30
exactly that's done it's not just about01:18:32
giving people a handout or giving people01:18:34
money like these teams went into these01:18:36
villages and they taught them how to do01:18:37
all these things they taught them how to01:18:38
repair their house if they have01:18:40
livestock and they're one of you know01:18:42
one of their their cows are sick or01:18:43
something like that what do you do it's01:18:45
not it's about creating a01:18:47
self-sufficient society um01:18:50
it was it was an amazing program i mean01:18:52
pbs and cgtn had a documentary that came01:18:54
out on poverty alleviation and it was a01:18:56
beautiful documentary you can still find01:18:58
it online but before it was going to air01:19:00
in the u.s pbs pulled it because there01:19:02
was backlash01:19:04
yeah wow i didn't know that01:19:07
yeah so cgt ended up releasing it on01:19:09
their own but it's just the poverty01:19:11
alleviation efforts what happened what01:19:13
how did these community workers go in01:19:15
and what do they do for these communities01:19:16
i mean it would be amazing for the west01:19:18
to learn from this stuff but man that01:19:20
would really make them look bad you know01:19:22
when they're spending you know 20001:19:24
million dollars per year to demonize01:19:27
china a country that's lifting their01:19:28
people out of poverty while their people01:19:31
are sitting on the streets and they're01:19:33
designing these garbage cans that are01:19:35
going to cost 20 00001:19:37
each to put on the street so that people01:19:38
can't take stuff out of the garbage you01:19:40
know i don't know if you saw that they01:19:41
were thinking of making these garbage01:19:43
garbage cans so that people couldn't01:19:45
scavenge from the garbage cans like how01:19:47
much wealth can you recycle from a01:19:49
garbage can over the period of the life01:19:50
of the garbage can maybe like two or01:19:52
three hundred dollars worth so you're01:19:53
gonna spend twenty thousand dollars to01:19:54
make sure that no01:19:56
discarded wealth is recycled for you01:19:59
know01:20:00
uh i don't know the us is such a guy the01:20:02
u.s is such a brutally like01:20:04
harsh capitalist environment that of01:20:06
course any cop any any successful01:20:08
poverty alleviation program would be a01:20:10
huge threat to that and then just real01:20:12
quick on the issue of xinjiang and the01:20:14
relationship with poverty alleviation a01:20:16
lot of these things that we hear about01:20:18
it's amazing to me how a lot of these01:20:19
programs that actually sound like good01:20:22
things are then portrayed as monstrous01:20:24
like the issue of sterilization if that01:20:27
actually comes from making birth control01:20:29
more accessible to uyghurs like isn't01:20:32
that a good thing01:20:34
like you gotta you guys i thought we01:20:36
support access to birth control it's01:20:38
like a progressive thing to do01:20:40
there was a there's a professor from uh01:20:42
japanese university uh stuart gilmore i01:20:44
think it is he's a a a bios01:20:48
statistic uh i can't even say a word01:20:50
right now but he's basically assigned to01:20:51
this kind of information01:20:53
whatever it however you say01:20:55
um and he01:20:57
laid into these uh01:20:58
groups like adrian zentz and aspy who01:21:00
put these reports out saying this01:21:02
doesn't even make sense how are you01:21:04
making these conclusions and he put01:21:05
graphs and charts and said then that01:21:07
means there's a genocide going on in01:21:09
japan also there's a genocide going on01:21:10
here there's you know i mean uh when you01:21:13
actually like i said when you look at01:21:15
the underlying reports01:21:16
they mistranslate things they just make01:21:19
these crazy stretches like they try to01:21:21
say that okay uyghurs are in a position01:21:23
that's vulnerable to being exploited01:21:26
labor and they say that a lot of uyghurs01:21:28
can't speak mandarin chinese so they're01:21:30
very vulnerable then later on in the01:21:32
report they they criticize the chinese01:21:34
government for teaching uyghurs to speak01:21:36
mandarin chinese it's like what what do01:21:38
you which one do you want and you see01:21:40
that they're doing these twists and01:21:41
turns and stretches to make a report01:21:44
that excuses then the policies that come01:21:46
down to sanction xinjiang push them back01:21:48
into poverty and hopefully restore01:21:50
terrorism to the region um01:21:52
it's you know uh so yeah adrian's01:21:55
there's also there's also the there's01:21:57
also the issue of like uh the china's i01:21:59
guess now has a two child policy is it01:22:01
two child like two but01:22:04
right then the one child but even the one01:22:06
child policy never actually had never01:22:08
applied01:22:09
to a certain minority right01:22:12
that's right so before before now it's a01:22:14
little bit more even everybody's kind of01:22:15
on an even playing field but for the01:22:16
longest time uh ethnic minorities01:22:18
weren't subject to the one child policy01:22:21
and you got to keep in mind also is that01:22:23
in any society that improves uh you know01:22:26
birth rates naturally go down01:22:28
and so you take into context that china01:22:31
just completed one of the most epic01:22:33
poverty alleviation programs in our01:22:35
earth's entire history01:22:36
you're naturally going to see birth01:22:38
rates going down now when you see birth01:22:39
rates going down more for ethnic01:22:41
minorities than han chinese a lot of01:22:43
these ethnic minority groups especially01:22:45
in the outside areas they were having01:22:46
seven eight nine sometimes ten kids01:22:49
so there's not much room for the birth01:22:52
rate for han chinese to go down because01:22:54
they're they were already restricted to01:22:55
one child but all of a sudden these01:22:56
weaker communities that are now going01:22:58
into the workplace they have uh you know01:23:00
women are01:23:01
there i heard stories of a lot of women01:23:03
also being liberated by the fact that01:23:04
they had more kind of power in their01:23:05
family whereas before only their husband01:23:08
was working there was no if they if they01:23:10
were an abusive relationship they were01:23:12
it was a very difficult situation for01:23:13
them to to leave um so it it empowered01:23:16
uh uyghur women and when you have that01:23:18
kind of situation you're going to see a01:23:20
bigger drop from those communities as01:23:22
well so all of this context is taken out01:23:25
um they do these twists and turns they01:23:27
say that um01:23:28
what is it labor placement programs uh01:23:30
basically headhunters they said oh those01:23:32
are uh01:23:34
for uh i can't remember exactly how they01:23:36
worded it like it's01:23:37
for the president01:23:39
pimps or something like01:23:41
yes01:23:43
but what they described as forced labor01:23:45
agents of forced labor would mean that01:23:47
every headhunter in the west is also you01:23:49
know procuring forced labor as well01:23:52
the01:23:53
the reports don't make sense they don't01:23:54
need to make sense because most people01:23:56
won't look at them and even the01:23:57
mainstream media outlets will then01:23:59
publish their headlines based on that01:24:01
yeah and you've got all these layers of01:24:02
disinformation now with the forced labor01:24:04
you had a lot of companies kick back you01:24:06
know fight back you know you had01:24:08
sketchers um who went and did an01:24:10
independent unannounced visit to the01:24:12
factory that was implicated that they01:24:14
use and they did an incomplete audit and01:24:16
they found no evidence they did multiple01:24:18
visits no evidence to support it um01:24:21
there were a few other companies also uh01:24:23
austral also a hong kong firm actually01:24:25
sued um and they've been taken off of01:24:27
the list like there's nothing there to01:24:29
back up their their claims um01:24:32
and uh but yeah the force forced labor01:24:34
is going to continue to be a really01:24:35
important part of this because01:24:37
again you know just as i mean abby01:24:39
martin was the person on you know empire01:24:41
files who did a really good piece on01:24:42
sanctions talking about that's what01:24:44
sanctions are designed to do yeah is to01:24:46
put people into poverty and have them01:24:47
rise up against their government um01:24:49
there's somebody working with the um01:24:51
with the biden administration01:24:53
i can't remember his name but he's your01:24:55
nephew on01:24:56
yeah that's right i would say yeah when01:24:58
he described the sanctions on iran he's01:25:00
like that's what he's talking about01:25:01
creating these situations of01:25:03
unemployment make them a little bit more01:25:04
sticky as he was calling them01:25:07
they know exactly what they're doing01:25:08
it's not about uplifting people or01:25:10
caring about human rights01:25:12
yeah i i'm watching the01:25:14
reality of sanctions and their impact01:25:17
around me and one of them is no having01:25:19
no fuel uh and when you take fuel away01:25:22
from a society it's like incredible that01:25:24
anybody in their air-conditioned offices01:25:26
in dc01:25:27
like lies to themselves and says that01:25:29
they're helping people because you're01:25:30
just making people completely miserable01:25:32
um right but on that note daniel where01:25:35
can people find your work01:25:38
um so i mean i'm i'm on youtube just uh01:25:40
daniel dumbrill um and01:25:42
on twitter under the same name that's uh01:25:45
that's all i have right now really01:25:47
well thank you so much for joining us01:25:48
and breaking this all down for us01:25:51
thanks very much for having meDescription:
Rania Khalek was joined by @DanielDumbrill , a political commentator on China-related issues who is based in Shenzhen, to speak about his experiences in Hong Kong, his recent trip to Xinjiang and how it relates to America's new Cold War. You can listen to every episode of Rania Khalek Dispatches anywhere you get podcasts. Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5N9wxQJwCxNmtFKCzY1iob?dl_branch=1 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rania-khalek-dispatches/id1565569173 TIME CODES 0:00 Intro 0:57 Who is Daniel Dumbrill? 4:15 What really happened in Hong Kong vs the western media narrative 17:32 How does China view the US leaving Afghanistan? 20:54 Has Daniel ever had trouble with security authorities in China? 23:52 How did Daniel get to Xinjiang? Was it hard to get in? 26:38 What Daniel saw in Xinjiang and how it compares to accusations in the US press 31:41The US “War on Terror” vs legitimate threats countries deal with in their own borders and how it’s different 34:30 Daniel speaks Mandarin! 38:51 What is the terrorism problem in Xinjiang? Who is behind it? 47:47 Is there diversity in China or is there an attempt to impose one culture on people, as Western media claims? 49:51 The intended impact of US sanctions on Xinjiang 54:56 Who is behind all these wild accusations against China? 1:00:09 The importance of Xinjiang to the Belt and Road Initiative 1:06:15 Daniel responds to his critics 1:16:10 The eradication of extreme poverty in China 1:25:37 Where you can follow Daniel’s work » Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/BreakThroughNews -------------------------------- » Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser » Tweet us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/BTnewsroom » Follow us on Instagram: https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser At Breakthrough News we believe in the power of independent media. Five mega-corporations dominate the media landscape — controlling 90% of what we read, watch and listen to. They control the news cycle, to which social media and even most “alternative” media is forced to respond. We are breaking through that cycle. We tell the untold stories of resistance from poor and working-class communities — because out of these stories we will construct a different narrative of the world, as it is and in real time. People’s movements in every corner of the globe are changing history and shifting consciousness. But these movements barely receive any coverage from the corporate media. They need visibility. They need amplification. They need a media arm to break through. We can be that media arm, but only with your help. Become a Patron and join us on the front lines in the battle of ideas. Subscribe and follow us! https://www.youtube.com/breakthroughnews @BTNewsroom
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Which format of "Xinjiang, Hong Kong, Media Lies and the War On China, w/ Daniel Dumbrill" video should I choose?
The best quality formats are FullHD (1080p), 2K (1440p), 4K (2160p) and 8K (4320p). The higher the resolution of your screen, the higher the video quality should be. However, there are other factors to consider: download speed, amount of free space, and device performance during playback.
Why does my computer freeze when loading a "Xinjiang, Hong Kong, Media Lies and the War On China, w/ Daniel Dumbrill" video?
The browser/computer should not freeze completely! If this happens, please report it with a link to the video. Sometimes videos cannot be downloaded directly in a suitable format, so we have added the ability to convert the file to the desired format. In some cases, this process may actively use computer resources.
How can I download "Xinjiang, Hong Kong, Media Lies and the War On China, w/ Daniel Dumbrill" video to my phone?
You can download a video to your smartphone using the website or the PWA application UDL Lite. It is also possible to send a download link via QR code using the UDL Helper extension.
How can I download an audio track (music) to MP3 "Xinjiang, Hong Kong, Media Lies and the War On China, w/ Daniel Dumbrill"?
The most convenient way is to use the UDL Client program, which supports converting video to MP3 format. In some cases, MP3 can also be downloaded through the UDL Helper extension.
How can I save a frame from a video "Xinjiang, Hong Kong, Media Lies and the War On China, w/ Daniel Dumbrill"?
This feature is available in the UDL Helper extension. Make sure that "Show the video snapshot button" is checked in the settings. A camera icon should appear in the lower right corner of the player to the left of the "Settings" icon. When you click on it, the current frame from the video will be saved to your computer in JPEG format.
What's the price of all this stuff?
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