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портников

portnikov

00:00:00

[music]

00:00:04

Good afternoon, Vitaliy, I am very glad to see you again

00:00:06

in Lviv on the painful topics channel,

00:00:09

before starting our conversation with

00:00:10

Vitali, I once again ask our viewers to

00:00:13

subscribe to our channel, to

00:00:16

like and comment on the conversation with

00:00:19

Vitaliy, I think there is something to write, rich

00:00:22

Portnikova It doesn't happen. It happens.

00:00:42

political events of the day, and the second part is

00:00:46

no longer political, I want to talk a little

00:00:48

about you, how did you achieve such a level of

00:00:51

erudition, intelligence, analytics, so that maybe

00:00:55

young people listen and simply take

00:00:58

your example? Putin wanted to take

00:01:00

Kyiv in three days, our government through the mouth of

00:01:03

Orestovych talked about two or three weeks

00:01:06

Ukraine has been resisting for two years now, these two

00:01:10

years of war, what conclusions have you drawn for yourself

00:01:13

and what conclusions should

00:01:16

Ukraine and Ukrainians draw? Well, it seems to me that

00:01:18

we have been talking since the first months of the war, and we

00:01:21

have been talking about it with you, that it is

00:01:24

quite such a long time times of conflict And that

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it is not measured in one year or two years

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and is a historical so-called

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Arithmetic that when such

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conflicts continue for more than

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seven months, when they cannot be

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stopped, then they can continue for

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six and a half years, this has

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always been the case in the history of mankind. I would say if

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you take some kind of conventional Middle Ages.

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Even earlier, there were fortresses that were

00:01:53

stormed. Do you think that this is such a fortress? The fortress

00:01:57

fell in a few days. This squad

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stormed Bravia literally

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immediately.

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it changed,

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it is the same classic war as all other

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wars from this point of view, that is, first there

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was an attempt

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to take Kyiv there, relatively speaking, I am simply

00:02:24

Ukrainian, if I can say so clearly with this

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blitzkrieg, it did not succeed, then there was an

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attempt at a siege

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Well, when it turned out that it was not going to work out, then it

00:02:32

began such a long-term siege, the

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transition of the Russian economy to

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military

00:02:39

rails, that is, an attempt to take this

00:02:44

fortress through such a long

00:02:46

exhaustion in the first days of the war, when I

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talk to my Western colleagues,

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they told me that it would be like this, they

00:02:52

said that it would be like in Syria, so

00:02:55

when I asked them even when the

00:02:58

Russian troops were still near Kyiv,

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many of my interlocutors there in the

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west told me that they will not take any Kyiv,

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it will be the Syrian conflict,

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you just need to count on the forces for eight

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to 10 years, and this was literally in

00:03:11

March 2022 in Syria constantly

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there is now a bombardment, some kind of

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movement of troops, some kind, some kind of

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population protests against Bashar al-

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Assad’s decision. No one even mentions it from the

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first, second, or third columns of

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newspapers, you can read about Syria

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only there in the Middle Eastern media, and

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not every day either, and we see how it

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descends Ukraine is already in the third-fifth place,

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what conclusion would Ukrainians or Ukraine have to

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make in two years, that is,

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we have to change something, reorient ourselves

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to absolutely military rails. It

00:03:53

seems to me that people are still subconsciously

00:03:56

counting on the fact that it will end

00:03:58

faster than it is may end not

00:04:01

today tomorrow yes not today yes

00:04:03

tomorrow Moreover I always say that I do not

00:04:05

say that it cannot be certain conditions

00:04:08

for reaching a truce they may

00:04:11

arise for one or another political

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reasons not military But we also have to

00:04:16

understand realistically with you Natal, that if

00:04:19

the conditions for a truce arise, they

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will not be the ones that the

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vast majority of our

00:04:25

compatriots expect. Well, imagine that

00:04:30

negotiations about a truce are starting now, for some

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reason, Russia is ready for a truce and

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Ukraine is ready for a truce on which

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line of confrontation this truce will be

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concluded is not obvious on the one that I am Ot

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and Obviously this will mean that the issue of

00:04:42

the liberation of Ukrainian territories

00:04:44

occupied by the enemy moves into the

00:04:46

political plane and the solution of this

00:04:49

issue will depend solely on the

00:04:51

international situation in the world and changes in

00:04:53

Russia itself and in this way it can take

00:04:55

from there 30 to 50 years, not months, and this is a

00:04:59

reality, that is, if we believe that

00:05:02

a truce can somehow come, then

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it can be like this, I cannot say

00:05:07

that the Russians wanted this because for the

00:05:09

Russians, such a truce is also a small

00:05:11

success, they sincerely believe that in time they

00:05:14

will be able to seize the whole of Ukraine And that is why it

00:05:16

will not be a sense of Victory for them,

00:05:18

but we are not talking about it with Russian eyes We do not think

00:05:20

that Russia

00:05:23

now has the opportunity to seize the whole of

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Ukraine, we are talking about how our

00:05:27

citizens perceive the end. We

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have seen sociological studies that the vast majority of

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people believe that the war can end

00:05:34

this year with the restoration of our

00:05:36

territorial integrity.

00:05:47

territorial integrity

00:05:49

is not on the agenda in the coming years,

00:05:51

well, this is simply also a reality if we

00:05:53

live with the understanding that we must achieve

00:06:01

some real result from the point of

00:06:03

view of the restoration of international law. I am not

00:06:06

saying that this can necessarily happen because

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it is a war and not an international conference

00:06:10

in any case, it will take years, it

00:06:13

will cost new human,

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economic and social sacrifices. If you want, the

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country will gradually turn into such a

00:06:22

military camp. How else? of the

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economic and social potential

00:06:33

that exists in the country, and how does the government

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see the development of this situation,

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how ready is it for this long

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war? The government is looking for a balance between

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the need to ensure

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mobilization and

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the need to solve two more issues

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at once.

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that

00:06:54

the President is absolutely right when he says

00:06:56

that in order for there to be mobilization, there must

00:06:58

be taxes in the budget, the

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economy must work, because

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if the economy does not work, if there

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are no people able to pay taxes, then there

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will be no armed forces, they

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do not exist for free, and we we also have to understand

00:07:12

Because when I hear this thesis that everyone

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will serve,

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people must understand that in order for everyone to

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serve, it is still necessary for a certain

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number of people to be

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able to pay, our allies do not give

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us money to raise the army and if we

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cannot get a balance in which the

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solvent population works and

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gives taxes in order to provide for

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those who fight, then there will be neither an army nor a

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state, this is a balance when you say that

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if the army will not protect you, then Russia is

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occupying you, it must always be said, but if

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you cannot maintain the army will have the

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same result, because this is

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not the Middle Ages, but in the Middle Ages,

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knights were also bought

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weapons. And it was also a very expensive

00:08:00

pleasure. By the way, the

00:08:01

aristocracy fought, not the common people, and the common

00:08:04

people did not have money for that.

00:08:06

to fight

00:08:09

for their own state was not

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their business at all, because it was a very expensive

00:08:14

pleasure to protect the motherland, ordinary people

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began to fight essentially already

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in our time with you out of coercion in the great

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empires and out of duty after the great

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French Revolution Because they were told

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listen, you want equality, and then

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the state will not be defended by aristocrats,

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because you guillotined them. You said that

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France belongs to you, that's why you have to go to

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the front, all of this is also necessary. Now when we

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hear from people that the

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children of deputies have to fight and after that they will

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not go, it is a democratic state in a

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democratic state, a

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simple person dies for the state, if we want the

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aristocracy to die for the state, we have to

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live in a feudal state, as it was before the

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Great French Revolution, for the desire

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to be equal with someone, you have to pay,

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including with your own life And if you don't

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want equality, you don't pay, you

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calmly go about your business in

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the field, some other person

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puts on these and all his knightly charms,

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goes to fight with another knight, because she

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fights for property, for her land and for

00:09:23

you. You are also her property. She protects

00:09:25

your property is a cow and land, but

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if you are not a cow and not a house, then you

00:09:32

should be nearby. This is one part of the balance.

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Another part of the balance that the

00:09:36

government thinks about is the rating, and we can see this too if

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we are still living the

00:09:44

illusion that elections have any significance in the

00:09:47

state. The question the existence of which is not

00:09:49

resolved, then we are looking for this balance.

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I always have

00:09:53

the impression that many people still think

00:09:56

that at a certain moment they can reach some kind of

00:09:59

pause, and I keep saying that I

00:10:03

also believe that a pause can be

00:10:06

reached simply I do not believe in negotiations,

00:10:09

unlike other people, I do not believe that the

00:10:11

Russian president needs them, and

00:10:14

the Russian state in general, but I always

00:10:17

advocate that we be ready for the de

00:10:20

facto end of the war. Here,

00:10:23

our Western allies all the time say that

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all wars end at the

00:10:26

negotiating table, not all Russians in the war may

00:10:30

not end at the negotiating table for

00:10:31

negotiation It may end de facto

00:10:34

Well, Ukrainian troops are standing on some lines of confrontation

00:10:38

Russian troops are standing on some lines of confrontation

00:10:40

military actions do not take place

00:10:43

without negotiations without

00:10:45

negotiations because there is nothing to talk about.

00:10:48

And for this, what should happen to

00:10:50

stop the exhaustion of the parties’ possibilities

00:10:53

or the reluctance of one side, let’s say that the

00:10:55

other responds to it in the same way. Well,

00:10:59

let’s say. If we have the ability to hit

00:11:01

Russian cities, there are already missile

00:11:03

equipment there, there are drones to destroy

00:11:05

Russian oil depots and Russians they

00:11:08

understand for sure that for each of their blows there will be a

00:11:12

Ukrainian blow, they stop in

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their blows, we do not strike them with our

00:11:15

blows at some point, I am not saying that it will

00:11:17

happen tomorrow, it could just be.

00:11:19

Look at the grain corridor, as it

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was at first, we agreed with the Russians

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and let them pass our ships, the Russians left

00:11:26

this agreement, but the grain corridor

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somehow works because we managed to

00:11:30

drive the

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Russian ships away

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from the route itself, and the Russians, as we

00:11:38

can see, do not have great enthusiasm

00:11:40

to destroy this corridor because they

00:11:42

understand that this will lead to a deterioration of

00:11:44

their relations with the allies to the

00:11:45

global south, maybe they just

00:11:47

can’t, maybe at some point they will be able to

00:11:49

replace them, they will also stop, but one way or

00:11:51

another, it turns out that it is possible

00:11:53

to carry out certain measures without any agreements,

00:11:55

it may actually be the end of the war if

00:11:57

we receive security guarantees from the West

00:11:59

and the Russians will know that an attack on our

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legitimate of the territory, at least over the

00:12:03

one they do not control, can lead

00:12:05

to a significant escalation of relations with the

00:12:07

west, if the west takes a risk, that is, there are

00:12:09

many different options.

00:12:19

wow another deal with the united

00:12:21

states of great britain after

00:12:23

we get the invitation to nato if we

00:12:24

get it i'm not saying that this is

00:12:26

going to happen i think it's a good

00:12:28

formula a lot of people don't agree with it

00:12:30

but i'm just saying that i would think that it the

00:12:32

correct formula is at the Washington

00:12:34

summit, for example Yes, at the Washington

00:12:36

summit, for example, it is possible at the

00:12:37

next NATO summit, that is, Ukraine

00:12:40

receives an invitation, it does not become a

00:12:42

NATO member, it receives an invitation in its

00:12:45

territorial integrity, of course, because

00:12:47

how else can you invite a country to

00:12:49

any Alliance if you recognize its

00:12:52

territorial the integrity of Ukraine

00:12:54

is invited to NATO, then a

00:12:56

separate agreement is drawn up, do you think this would stop

00:12:58

Russia? I think so, but in the United

00:13:01

States they may believe that, on the contrary,

00:13:03

they would create conditions for an

00:13:04

American-Russian conflict. I

00:13:05

believe that if we received such

00:13:07

guarantees, not a single Russian missile would fall

00:13:09

would have fallen on Ukrainian land, even if you could

00:13:11

imagine that they had fallen or not, well, they would have fallen,

00:13:13

well, there would have been a drone shot down

00:13:16

here, we are also shelling Russia with

00:13:19

drones, the truth is that Russia is a nuclear

00:13:21

state, as far as I remember, and there is

00:13:23

no such excessive reaction to these

00:13:25

There is no shelling. That is, it is also a question of

00:13:28

what to perceive as an exceptional threat. I

00:13:31

see a threat. As you can see, Russia does not

00:13:34

perceive Ukrainian drones as an

00:13:36

existential threat, it perceives them as

00:13:38

part of such a part of the conflict, and

00:13:41

thus if you imagine that we have

00:13:43

these

00:13:44

guarantees from the United States to For

00:13:46

Great Britain, this means that there are some

00:13:48

red lines, relatively speaking, it does not

00:13:50

stop the shelling. As such, it stops the

00:13:54

possibility of the advance of

00:13:56

troops, let's say, and in this way it

00:13:59

becomes completely meaningless, and the

00:14:02

shelling itself is also an important thing if you

00:14:04

know that your troops cannot pass

00:14:07

through a certain the red line, because it is, in fact,

00:14:09

the territory guaranteed by the security of NATO. Why are

00:14:11

you shelling all this? What, after

00:14:15

all, these destructions of the Ukrainian

00:14:18

infrastructure are preparations for the

00:14:19

next offensive of the army, there is no need

00:14:21

to doubt that, and therefore this

00:14:23

enemy army must be deprived of resources so that

00:14:25

it cannot to answer or so that it

00:14:27

could not advance on its own if you know that

00:14:29

your army, let's say, is actually

00:14:31

fixed at a certain point and the enemy's

00:14:34

army is also fixed further that this is, in principle, a

00:14:36

way to end at least the acute

00:14:39

phase of the war, but I am not telling you that the west will

00:14:41

go for it. I think what won't work when we

00:14:43

keep saying that we have to

00:14:45

return

00:14:47

to the borders of Ukraine in 1991, it

00:14:52

seems to me that the verb to return is absolutely unnecessary.

00:14:55

In international law, there is

00:14:57

no

00:14:59

return. International law has already

00:15:02

been destroyed. We can build a new

00:15:05

order, which, by the way,

00:15:08

President Biden is talking about, which will

00:15:11

take into account agreements

00:15:14

on internationally recognized borders And that

00:15:17

all

00:15:19

countries

00:15:20

that would like to

00:15:23

restore this order should participate in these agreements, because it is

00:15:25

not only about the Ukrainian border, it is about

00:15:27

the borders of the Republic of Moldova, it

00:15:30

is about the borders of the Republic of Georgia, it is

00:15:34

about the final

00:15:36

settlement of the conflict between Serbia and

00:15:39

Kosovo And this is only in Europe, because if

00:15:41

you look at

00:15:43

Asia, there are many conflicts that

00:15:47

must also be settled in one way or another

00:15:49

within the framework of this new order, this is the relationship

00:15:51

between the People's Republic of China and the Republic of

00:15:53

China in Taiwan, this is the

00:15:55

Korean issue, this is the territorial

00:15:57

dispute in southern China mori, this is a

00:16:00

conflict

00:16:01

between India

00:16:04

and China over the border territories of Tibet,

00:16:08

essentially annexed by China. But

00:16:11

nevertheless, it is now a bilateral

00:16:14

Sino-Indian conflict. Each of

00:16:16

these conflicts is pregnant with a major war. And

00:16:20

I do not rule out that these wars

00:16:22

will happen one way or another, I will just say that

00:16:23

if we are talking about the international order

00:16:25

as such, about its restoration, then

00:16:27

Russia's attack on Ukraine is part of the efforts to

00:16:30

destroy this

00:16:31

order, and the efforts are successful because if

00:16:35

Russia wanted to achieve

00:16:37

this situation, when the former Soviet

00:16:40

republics are stuck somewhere between

00:16:42

hell and heaven, relatively speaking, somewhere in this

00:16:44

purgatory, could they not have become

00:16:48

part of NATO, the European Union,

00:16:51

and if they have already decided to escape from the

00:16:54

Russian integration formations, then

00:16:55

it has achieved its goal. In general, I think that this is, by and

00:16:58

large, the Third World

00:17:00

War, because everyone is afraid of a nuclear

00:17:02

conflict, so they try to clarify their relations,

00:17:05

so to speak, on the training grounds but

00:17:07

the role of the individual in history in this

00:17:09

situation could somehow play

00:17:11

such a decisive role, I apologize

00:17:15

for the tautology, this is not my question

00:17:17

because I do not believe in the role of the individual in

00:17:18

history in general, I believe that any

00:17:22

individual in history reflects the request of

00:17:24

society if we take previous

00:17:26

years, there were such personalities as

00:17:29

Margaret Thatcher Reagan, who

00:17:32

influenced history with their decisive

00:17:34

actions. I think that a personality in history

00:17:38

acquires all colors after the fact of its

00:17:41

political activity, when it exists in

00:17:43

history, no one believes that it is a

00:17:44

personality that directly affects something

00:17:46

it is an ordinary person who carries out a

00:17:49

certain policy that meets the

00:17:51

people's request that influences it. Well, there you mentioned Churchill,

00:17:53

Churchill, the

00:17:55

prime minister of the coalition government of

00:17:57

Great Britain. You know how Churchill

00:18:00

got into Great Politics at all. Yes,

00:18:02

but a person is determined and determined because the

00:18:04

British were ready to fight That is why they

00:18:06

had a request to fight Hitlerism. By

00:18:09

the way, at the time when Churchill became the

00:18:11

prime minister of Great

00:18:12

Britain, this request could, in principle, have

00:18:15

served Chamberlain. He was already

00:18:17

ready. Great Britain declared war on

00:18:20

Germany, not during Churchill's time, but during

00:18:23

Chamberlain's time. Yes that I am calm

00:18:25

about Churchill's personality here and that

00:18:27

he had a lot of mistakes, what kind of

00:18:28

Reagan and that, well, listen again, we are

00:18:31

looking at this after the fact, Reagan

00:18:33

led the United States when the Soviet

00:18:36

Union entered the collapse zone, remember This

00:18:39

was the time of these constant funerals of the death of

00:18:41

Leonid Brezhnev replaced one sick

00:18:45

leader with another. In this regard,

00:18:47

Reagan was undoubtedly lucky with

00:18:49

Gorbachev, that's why it happened, but

00:18:52

under Reagan, they lowered the price of oil, which

00:18:54

in principle undermined the Soviet Union. Well,

00:18:57

this is also mythology, they did not

00:18:59

specifically lower the price of oil. the

00:19:00

economic situation has developed Well

00:19:02

of course not specifically Well let's say so in

00:19:04

mythology specially

00:19:19

already all the load, and I think that

00:19:22

the most important thing was in the situation with the collapse of the

00:19:26

Soviet Union, which no one in the United

00:19:28

States wanted. As you know, this is absolutely

00:19:30

what the Soviet Union

00:19:33

started.

00:19:40

from

00:19:43

democratization and not from economic reforms,

00:19:45

and this is not a story about Reagan and Thatcher at all.

00:19:47

This is a story about Gorbachev, about

00:19:49

Gorbachev, who believed in a mythology in which you

00:19:53

and I no longer believed in socialism with a

00:19:55

human face, that it is possible to preserve

00:19:58

socialism with its completely imprinted

00:20:00

economy simply giving people the opportunity

00:20:03

to breathe a little more freely, you

00:20:05

remember that censorship was still probably

00:20:07

maintained, that there were some red lines

00:20:10

that could not be crossed,

00:20:13

then you and I crossed

00:20:16

these red lines every day and watched.

00:20:18

is it possible to go or is there already

00:20:20

a stop here, and there was nothing in the economy,

00:20:23

these large enterprises continued to exist,

00:20:25

private initiative was

00:20:27

only at the level of some cooperatives, and that's why

00:20:29

it was all covered, no

00:20:32

oil price would destroy the Soviet economy

00:20:36

if it was a market economy and that's until things

00:20:38

were a miscalculation, now the West did not

00:20:41

understand the important thing that it imposes

00:20:45

sanctions not against the planned but against the

00:20:46

market economy, and the market always

00:20:49

survives in one way or another, bypasses it all, not not in the

00:20:52

United States, and so in China, not in

00:20:55

Great Britain, so in India it finds

00:20:57

buyers I'm just saying that

00:20:59

since I don't believe in personality I don't

00:21:00

believe in Putin's personality either. I believe that

00:21:02

Putin reflects the will of the Russian

00:21:04

people to restore the empire within the borders of the

00:21:07

Soviet Union in 1991.

00:21:14

not through war, but if you don’t believe in the

00:21:17

role of the individual in history, then we don’t

00:21:20

need to be afraid of Trump, because many

00:21:22

Ukrainians are very afraid of him coming to

00:21:24

power.

00:21:33

we have an understanding when we receive

00:21:36

help from the United States Because there

00:21:38

is no vote in the congress there is no

00:21:39

Trump yet I generally believe that

00:21:42

every new month of the continuation of this

00:21:44

war is a risk with Trump or without Trump

00:21:47

because it is a war within a war There may be

00:21:49

different twists and turns in my opinion for you, a

00:21:52

linear answer to the question of what will happen

00:21:54

if Trump wins the presidential

00:21:56

elections of the United States, because I do not

00:21:58

believe in American-Russian

00:21:59

agreements, when I read in Western

00:22:02

publications that Russia can win for one

00:22:05

reason or another, I do not understand what they

00:22:08

mean by the concept of Victory just

00:22:11

as I don't fully understand what we put

00:22:13

in the concept of Victory, I consider the

00:22:16

simple

00:22:18

matter of preserving the Ukrainian state and the

00:22:21

Ukrainian

00:22:22

people to be a victory for Ukrainians, because

00:22:25

they think that this is self-

00:22:27

evident, I don't understand it, I don't think

00:22:30

that it is it must happen

00:22:31

historically. Yes, we have the experience of the Ukrainian

00:22:34

People's Republic, the West Ukrainian

00:22:35

People's Republic, they were

00:22:37

proclaimed for a certain time, existed for a while, then

00:22:38

disappeared. Well, who said that a state that

00:22:43

existed for 30 or 35 years cannot disappear?

00:22:46

We have such an experience in the history of mankind,

00:22:48

when there were states then they disappeared and

00:22:50

existed for more than 30 years, for centuries

00:22:53

they existed and disappeared, becoming part of

00:22:55

some other state body.

00:22:57

Scotland is a

00:22:59

great example, and no one said that

00:23:02

Ukraine

00:23:03

is guaranteed such a cloudless state

00:23:06

existence, no, we just know what

00:23:08

insults Russia so that Ukraine does not exist. Because

00:23:10

this is historical Russia. They

00:23:13

if Medvedv says that the very existence of

00:23:15

Ukraine

00:23:19

will, so to speak, create reasons for

00:23:22

wars, the very existence of Ukraine, no matter

00:23:24

what its regime, he recently said this is what

00:23:27

they always said. the

00:23:31

Ukrainian

00:23:34

flag, conventionally speaking, in Yelka or in

00:23:37

Luhansk, this is an important achievement from the point of

00:23:39

view of international law, but it is a victory for

00:23:41

us if, in principle,

00:23:44

the question does not arise

00:23:47

that Ukraine

00:23:49

should not exist, and Ukrainians

00:23:53

still need to understand one thing when we

00:23:55

speak and I has said many times that

00:23:58

sooner or later Russia will agree to the

00:24:00

existence of Ukraine, as it agreed to the

00:24:03

existence of Poland and Finland and so

00:24:05

on, this is not entirely true. Russia can

00:24:08

agree to the establishment of an independent

00:24:09

Azerbaijan in Armenia, Tajikistan,

00:24:12

Turkmenistan, you know why. Because

00:24:15

non-Russian people live there and how Poles, they are not

00:24:18

Russians, they once said that they are some

00:24:20

Russians of the Catholic story. But I

00:24:23

think that the Russians themselves were funny

00:24:24

when they said that and the Sphinxes. Well, they are not

00:24:26

Russian. Well, not Russian. They were not lucky. They were not

00:24:30

lucky, but the Ukrainians were lucky.

00:24:33

that's the problem,

00:24:37

Russians will never believe that Ukrainians

00:24:40

are a completely different people, Russians are ready

00:24:44

to live in the same state with Ukrainians who

00:24:47

think they are Russians and are ashamed that

00:24:49

they are a little not so Russian, remember that

00:24:52

in the Soviet Union they always despised

00:24:54

Ukrainians, they really wanted to be Russian

00:24:57

And those who wanted to be

00:25:01

Ukrainians were hated and

00:25:03

destroyed. The simple answer is that if you want to

00:25:06

survive in Russia, you have to declare that you are

00:25:11

Russian or Russian. In the Soviet Empire, in

00:25:14

Ukraine there were three categories of Ukrainians,

00:25:16

people who considered themselves Ukrainians in Russia,

00:25:18

because of Russian people who considered themselves

00:25:20

they are also Ukrainians in principle Well, they all

00:25:23

either return to Ukraine or go

00:25:25

abroad, they are enemies of the regime because Being a

00:25:26

Ukrainian for Ukrainians in terms of identity is the

00:25:30

same as being a Jew in Nazi Germany

00:25:33

Well, the truth must be told Ukrainians

00:25:36

who are ashamed that they are Ukrainians because

00:25:40

they are not they can disguise it somehow, but

00:25:42

they are ashamed, such people always

00:25:45

came not only to Russian cities,

00:25:47

but also to our millionaires and tried to

00:25:49

forget that they are Ukrainians,

00:25:51

forget their native language and were ashamed of their

00:25:53

own parents in the villages, remember, these are

00:25:56

such normal Ukrainians Russians

00:25:58

also like the third category - these are

00:26:00

Ukrainians who can simply think that

00:26:02

they are Russian. Look at the surnames of people

00:26:04

who die

00:26:06

in the war on the Russian side, Avarenko,

00:26:09

Astabenko, Dedenko, Petrenko, and there are no other surnames.

00:26:19

you will see, but these people, first of all, they have

00:26:22

long believed that they are Russian after the

00:26:25

Soviet Union, when they began to write their

00:26:28

origin in their passports, it made

00:26:30

their task even easier, and now they are

00:26:33

all 99% Russian, although they are

00:26:36

ordinary Ukrainians, they have nothing to do

00:26:38

with Russian

00:26:40

people, but they want and these Ukrainians also

00:26:43

accommodate the Russians, so if you

00:26:46

tell them that you will not be able to build

00:26:48

Russia here, they will not even understand why

00:26:49

Azerbaijan will not be able to, it is possible to

00:26:51

occupy it and make a colony and there will be

00:26:53

Russia here, why are Ukrainians, Russians always say

00:26:57

that there was no Ukrainophobia in the Soviet

00:26:59

Union, I hear this all the time, and you do.

00:27:02

Look, this one was the leader,

00:27:05

this one was the leader, they were all there from

00:27:06

Kharkiv,

00:27:07

Dnipropetrovsk, and I had a

00:27:10

sergeant, Anishchenko.

00:27:12

you,

00:27:14

he wanted to command the Russians, to be a

00:27:16

bigger Russian than a Russian, and that's why

00:27:19

you didn't

00:27:21

consider him a Ukrainian, you considered him a sergeant, and

00:27:25

he wanted you to consider him a sergeant, and he was ashamed of the fact

00:27:27

that he was Anishchenko. And that

00:27:30

suited you, but when you started

00:27:32

saying that I was a Ukrainian there is no need to

00:27:36

say here that we are not like that, you immediately

00:27:38

thought that he is from Bandera, the truth is, he is probably

00:27:40

from somewhere there, from Lviv. We are beautiful.

00:27:44

We know everything, and we know everything about anti-Semitism in Russian.

00:27:47

I know it myself, if you are silent and

00:27:50

hide

00:27:53

under a chair and are ashamed of what you jew, the

00:27:57

princes don't touch you at all, you should

00:27:59

sit and be ashamed that you are so

00:28:02

unlucky, if you behave

00:28:04

decently, everyone will already hate you,

00:28:08

if we want to live in an

00:28:10

independent state, we will never

00:28:14

have good relations with the Russian

00:28:16

Federation, we can

00:28:19

coexist like Israel with Egypt is a condition of

00:28:22

good neighborly relations with the

00:28:24

Russian Federation, the rejection of the

00:28:26

Ukrainian identity

00:28:28

from the Ukrainian as such. You see

00:28:30

how they are raging,

00:28:32

taking down the monuments of Alexander

00:28:35

Sergeyevich Pushkin, and everyone is raging, both

00:28:38

supporters of the regime and his type of

00:28:41

opponents, there is no difference in the

00:28:44

reaction of Putin and some Panasenkov

00:28:47

And why is it not about

00:28:49

Pushkin? I can absolutely calmly

00:28:52

say to the lens that Pushkin is a great

00:28:54

Russian poet, one of the most outstanding

00:28:59

Russian cultural figures, only

00:29:01

Russian ones, not ours, and therefore, in principle,

00:29:04

his monument may not be available in

00:29:06

another state, we have every right

00:29:09

even despite the rockets and

00:29:11

drones of the atrocities, we simply have the

00:29:14

right not to have here monuments to Pushkin,

00:29:17

Yesenin Block, Tolstoy Streets,

00:29:20

Dostoevsky

00:29:22

Turgenev, not because Russians are beasts,

00:29:26

this is something that many of

00:29:28

our compatriots do not understand, but because

00:29:30

this is a different country, a different culture, a different

00:29:32

civilization, because Ukraine has the

00:29:34

opportunity and the right to immortalize its

00:29:36

own figures

00:29:38

and culture, science, those who built this

00:29:42

state, built it, this

00:29:44

happens everywhere, when we propose

00:29:47

to erect a monument to Taras Shevchenko,

00:29:49

let's say in different countries of the world that out of

00:29:50

respect for our country, if we would like to

00:29:54

show respect to the Russian state We

00:29:56

could of course erect a monument to

00:29:58

Pushkin, but why should we respect the

00:30:00

Russian state now? It

00:30:14

has nothing to do with us, and this is

00:30:16

what they cannot find out. But

00:30:18

they are not only in Ukraine, but in Paris there is the

00:30:20

Oleksandrovsky Bridge, well, there is. Well, it is because

00:30:23

it was. They tried their markers everywhere. The

00:30:26

bridge is the result of

00:30:28

French-Russian, sorry. I was

00:30:29

always surprised by the military relations there.

00:30:31

By the way, when I was in Paris, I was

00:30:33

surprised that there is this bridge. Well, it’s

00:30:36

not between two empires, it’s

00:30:37

Alexander’s, not in honor of Pushkin. It’s an

00:30:39

empire. I understand that it was Emperor Alexander, but

00:30:41

you understand that Paris conquered it.

00:30:43

for Paris, it had to be Well, somehow, well,

00:30:46

it’s special, well, what do you mean, well, the

00:30:49

French have no complexes precisely because

00:30:51

this is the Empire, they can afford to

00:30:55

remember a person who conquered

00:30:59

Paris in the main simply because France

00:31:01

defeated civilized Russia anyway,

00:31:04

just like the Italians can

00:31:07

afford it now, when there was a war, a

00:31:10

war began in the Middle East, and

00:31:13

they lit up the arch of Emperor Titus in Rome with the

00:31:16

flag of Israel, the same

00:31:19

Titus who

00:31:20

destroyed the temple in

00:31:24

Jerusalem, if they were like that, he would have

00:31:28

decided that he was an irony, as it

00:31:31

happens, but this means a great

00:31:34

absence of an inferiority complex, we

00:31:37

can afford it because we had

00:31:39

this conquest, but we also have

00:31:44

historical respect, we will be like that too, I assure you, I have

00:31:48

no doubt, but we

00:31:50

are simply at war now, you understand that the

00:31:54

Romans during the Judean the uprising is

00:31:55

unlikely to hang Jewish flags on any arches following after the

00:31:58

cite, no of

00:32:01

course not because it was such a

00:32:04

[music]

00:32:07

time Vitaly, if we go back to the two years of

00:32:11

the war, in your opinion, how has Ukrainian

00:32:12

society changed, I cannot

00:32:15

analyze it because sociologists have to do it

00:32:17

but I don't trust sociologists either,

00:32:18

you know why. Because I think

00:32:20

it's the same as analyzing the state of health of a

00:32:23

person who is under anesthesia. Well, you and I

00:32:25

had some kind of operation, we were

00:32:28

under anesthesia and they come to you and say, are

00:32:31

you in pain or not? Well, in principle,

00:32:34

I feel good, nothing

00:32:35

hurts, I didn’t even think that such

00:32:37

consequences of such an operation do not hurt,

00:32:39

here something in the ear

00:32:41

hurts, and here, after 12 hours,

00:32:45

this anesthesia begins to wear off, and you suddenly

00:32:49

realize that your ear does not hurt, in a completely

00:32:52

different place it hurts

00:32:55

narcosis has stopped working society

00:32:58

in war is always a society under

00:33:01

anesthesia the war will end

00:33:05

realistically when people will understand that

00:33:08

the war is over how it will end We

00:33:11

also don't know but rockets don't fly

00:33:14

at the front they don't

00:33:18

shoot Peaceful life in a couple of

00:33:23

months we

00:33:25

will understand what is going on in general you

00:33:29

you can't even imagine how it will

00:33:31

change even with those people whose moods we

00:33:33

know for sure today, there are

00:33:36

many people, let's say there are some

00:33:39

people who are abroad and

00:33:41

say that they will never return in their lives, they will

00:33:43

pack their suitcases and

00:33:45

return, many people say that

00:33:48

as soon as the war will end, they

00:33:50

will return to Ukraine, they will not even

00:33:52

take half a step to return back,

00:33:55

many people who will be there

00:33:57

now and say that they

00:33:59

will do everything there to help

00:34:02

Ukraine endure and survive, including

00:34:06

people who are at the front, will

00:34:07

pack their

00:34:09

bags and to leave here to

00:34:12

never return and say that they have

00:34:14

already fulfilled their duty to this

00:34:16

country. They are not going to live in it,

00:34:18

but if there is a war, they will talk about it,

00:34:19

they will return and defend it. In other words,

00:34:22

this shows that

00:34:24

Alyu's perception of reality is completely inadequate now that is,

00:34:26

everything will absolutely not be different

00:34:30

and there will be no static for anyone, you

00:34:34

understand, because how people think

00:34:36

about

00:34:38

the future, they plan their future

00:34:41

based on this extreme situation and

00:34:44

this state of anesthesia in which they

00:34:46

are, you and I. We can also

00:34:49

think about what we will

00:34:51

do when the war

00:34:54

ends And we will do absolutely the

00:34:56

opposite things, you understand And why do you

00:34:58

think so I can read Remark When the

00:35:00

people who will come from the war speak,

00:35:03

they will actively participate there it

00:35:05

will be Remark or Hmingway there will be a large

00:35:07

number of people what will happen to the people who

00:35:09

protect the country. They will want to

00:35:11

just live and enjoy life. They

00:35:14

will. you

00:35:24

have the right to this, you understand,

00:35:28

simply live and enjoy life without

00:35:30

thinking for even one minute about what is

00:35:33

happening to Ukraine itself, it will

00:35:35

not be like this with everyone, someone will want to make a

00:35:38

political rra. Moreover, I will honestly tell you that

00:35:40

the one who says today that he will

00:35:42

build the country Well, I am

00:35:45

there in the army, relatively speaking, he can

00:35:49

eventually be met by us in the best

00:35:51

restaurants of Ukraine and Europe, and the one who

00:35:54

says that all he will do is

00:35:57

hang out with girls and drink champagne

00:36:00

because he has had enough of these attacks, this

00:36:02

war, this blood and death, will be

00:36:05

vice- the prime minister of Ukraine or some

00:36:08

businessman who will work 48 hours a

00:36:10

day, you can't know how

00:36:13

people will behave after

00:36:16

the war ends, everything will be different, I'll say it again, that's why

00:36:18

all this sociology, all this pursuit of

00:36:21

ratings is nothing at all

00:36:24

[music]

00:36:25

is it worth

00:36:29

it Do you think that in one interview I listened to

00:36:32

you that the issue of language during the war

00:36:34

should not be pedaled. But we see that

00:36:36

literally recently there are a lot of

00:36:39

such moments where it escalates,

00:36:41

starting with Ferion, who

00:36:43

accused the

00:36:45

Russian-speaking soldiers who defend

00:36:48

Ukraine, and ending with Kadovsk

00:36:50

when they mock over people who

00:36:52

try to speak the Ukrainian language, the

00:36:54

language issue should still be resolved

00:36:57

during the war So that it does not divide

00:37:00

society And how should we resolve the

00:37:03

language issue?

00:37:09

no, it is state

00:37:11

policy, it exists one way or another

00:37:13

because the law on the language has not been revoked or

00:37:14

canceled by anyone, education continues to be

00:37:18

Ukrainian-language, all this is getting stronger

00:37:20

every year, it will be like this, but this

00:37:21

question is

00:37:23

not Iryna Farion, I know for sure that Iryna

00:37:26

Farion until the end the solution to the issue of the

00:37:28

Ukrainian language in Ukraine will not live long, its

00:37:31

supporters will be able When it is certain that

00:37:32

100% of the people there speak exclusively

00:37:35

Ukrainian will be able to come to the

00:37:36

cemetery I think on Lychakivskyi to bring

00:37:38

flowers to her grave, she will be resting there for a long time

00:37:40

because it is a long process and

00:37:42

not because that she will die early, she will

00:37:45

die at a very respectable age. People like

00:37:47

Iryna Porion live long because they have a strong

00:37:50

nervous system, but Iryna Farion

00:37:52

will not wait for her dream to come true. I am

00:37:55

sure too. to

00:38:07

live in Jerusalem, he was the only person who

00:38:10

spoke Hebrew with his wife, the only one. Well, there

00:38:14

were already many Jews, but they all spoke

00:38:17

different languages there, and they were the first family,

00:38:20

not the only one, who spoke Hebrew with their children.

00:38:21

What do you think

00:38:23

happened when Beneighuda died? at his

00:38:26

funeral, everyone spoke in Hebrew in

00:38:32

schools, Hebrew was taught along with

00:38:35

Arabic and English, and Hebrew was taught.

00:38:48

at

00:38:53

your workplace, you just have to teach Ukrainian to

00:38:56

their children and grandchildren, don't worry about what

00:38:58

will happen if people are not

00:39:01

able to speak normally in another language

00:39:03

that they don't consider their own. They

00:39:04

won't speak it if they want it

00:39:06

for some reason they

00:39:08

will switch to it, but this

00:39:10

again, it should not happen again and again,

00:39:12

because when we started to speak a month and a half

00:39:14

after the war, you see, everyone

00:39:16

switched to the Ukrainian language, I said that when

00:39:19

the shock passes, everyone will return to Russian,

00:39:21

because if a person speaks Ukrainian, it is

00:39:23

not because they I want to, but because she does not

00:39:25

want to speak Russian, she will

00:39:27

calm down, then she will speak in the

00:39:29

language that is easier.

00:39:44

that we only have one female reader who asks for

00:39:47

books in Russian, so we bring them from the warehouses. And

00:39:51

you know all the others, even

00:39:53

when there is no Ukrainian-language book. We

00:39:55

say there is a Russian-language analogue, but they

00:39:57

refuse, and this is Kyiv, not Lviv, this is a

00:39:59

very good example, of course, of course, I

00:40:02

say even unexpected, but well, look

00:40:04

abroad, anyway, a lot of

00:40:05

Ukrainians continue to speak Russian, but

00:40:07

abroad, the majority of Ukrainians who

00:40:09

left may not be part of

00:40:12

Ukrainian communities in the future, so

00:40:14

what? Well, they will be other

00:40:15

representatives of other communities in other countries, and there are

00:40:18

no guarantees that these people

00:40:20

in general are going to return to Ukraine,

00:40:22

we generally had a huge number of

00:40:23

people who

00:40:25

did not perceive themselves as Ukrainians by

00:40:28

identity or did not perceive a part of

00:40:30

their identity as Ukrainian, the

00:40:31

Ukrainian language. This is also a completely

00:40:33

normal perception of identity. A person

00:40:34

perceives his identity in different ways,

00:40:36

it is not always linguistic. I do

00:40:39

not equate Jewish identity with Eurythic

00:40:41

or Yiddish. I generally believe

00:40:46

that Jews as an identity survived precisely

00:40:48

because we did not cling

00:40:50

to the linguistic factor. If we had clung to the linguistic factor, we would have most

00:40:51

likely disappeared, and we clung to everything. This is an

00:40:54

internal understanding of identity, but

00:40:57

this absolutely does not mean that when it

00:40:59

became necessary to create a

00:41:01

state, a state precisely for those people, I

00:41:03

wanted to live in the state, it turned out that language

00:41:05

is a marker for identity, and

00:41:07

Eurydice appeared as a living language. Everything is normal and it

00:41:10

should happen here, and it will be so here, because

00:41:12

if Ukrainians consensually understand that

00:41:14

they Ukraine is needed as a language as a marker,

00:41:18

you will still win, don’t even

00:41:19

doubt it’s just a

00:41:22

process and the main thing is that the language wins here.

00:41:26

The main thing is that the Ukrainian language should be a language of

00:41:28

daily use, not just

00:41:30

declaratively there, but daily use here, it

00:41:32

requires some effort

00:41:35

education culture television internet Oh

00:41:39

very important yet we discuss all this with you

00:41:41

and tell how good it is

00:41:44

that we have television, after all, a

00:41:46

Ukrainian-speaking young generation that

00:41:48

watches tiktok, and tiktok, of which language is

00:41:51

Russian-speaking,

00:41:53

means the more we will have a

00:41:54

Ukrainian-language product

00:41:56

on social networks, and it is not us and you who

00:41:59

have to create it, but people which for

00:42:01

20-25 years in Russia. They are grants,

00:42:04

create state grants for products on YouTube so

00:42:09

that there are those products on

00:42:11

YouTube that they need, we could also

00:42:14

at least if not the state, then non-governmental

00:42:17

organizations, diasporic organizations

00:42:20

create grants for the production of

00:42:22

content in social networks

00:42:24

to encourage young people to engage in this,

00:42:26

the Russians have already invented a shaman for themselves Well, he is a

00:42:29

young man, well, now I think

00:42:31

they will have problems because they will start

00:42:33

persecuting their rappers and tiktokers,

00:42:35

if they also wear socks in the wrong places, they

00:42:39

sing the wrong songs and

00:42:42

they will start a gap with the youth, as was the case

00:42:44

in the Soviet Union, let's

00:42:46

get back to the serious I still want to

00:42:49

talk a little bit about those problems

00:42:50

of society, but it's a serious thing, this is

00:42:52

you, and the Ukrainian language will win. It

00:42:54

can't win if we treat

00:42:56

it I would say Iryna Farion's beastly seriousness.

00:43:01

Rina Farion is just a very serious person.

00:43:03

I always thought until I saw her

00:43:06

performances that Ukrainians are a people with an

00:43:08

undeniable sense of humor. Now I began to

00:43:11

doubt

00:43:13

that Iryna is very serious, very seriously, and

00:43:15

I don't take that life, and you are from her. We are

00:43:17

acquaintances. By the way, personally, no, you

00:43:19

had a conversation with Iryna Farion. And

00:43:22

we were

00:43:23

on the stage of the Maidan. It seems to me that in the period of

00:43:26

14 years, standing on the same stage, and I

00:43:29

think that standing on the same stage is enough for us to get to know each other,

00:43:32

this is all nonsense in any paradise

00:43:35

when there is a great actress on the stage Someone should

00:43:37

be in the cordobaleka do you consider her a

00:43:40

great actress Yes every I would say

00:43:44

confident in her own right woman is

00:43:46

always a great

00:43:48

[music]

00:43:51

actress then Another such sensitive topic

00:43:54

that is currently in our Sus society I also

00:43:56

obviously provoked these two years of

00:43:58

war, you know, as Nataliya

00:44:02

Cheornish, a sociologist, said in my interview, the

00:44:04

fragmentation of society, which is inevitable

00:44:07

during the war.

00:44:18

called on the essence of the

00:44:21

countries that sheltered them not to be

00:44:23

financed by So this encourages them to

00:44:25

return.

00:44:26

In your opinion, is there such a problem if

00:44:31

it does not exist? Can it arise? And in

00:44:33

general, what do you think of the statement of Leshchenka? I will not

00:44:36

comment on Leshchenka's statements. I apologize. I

00:44:38

consider myself a person there who respects her

00:44:41

father's presence in the information background, and

00:44:44

if there are some people who say some strange

00:44:48

things, then I do not think that we should

00:44:49

draw attention to their statements. I

00:44:52

want to remind you that

00:44:54

when the

00:44:56

great war began, our government,

00:44:59

just like our state, did everything

00:45:01

possible to save people who were

00:45:05

fleeing the war, including to

00:45:09

other countries of the world, because I just want

00:45:12

you to imagine what really happened if we

00:45:15

were dealing exclusively with internally

00:45:16

displaced people in the number of 10 million

00:45:19

people, so imagine we

00:45:22

remember the Lviv railway station and now

00:45:24

imagine that all these people were living

00:45:26

Imagine millions of women with children, the

00:45:29

lack of a real housing stock,

00:45:31

we would have all these people where to place them

00:45:33

in the western regions, even in the central regions,

00:45:35

although in the central regions, if someone was

00:45:37

placed when the Russian troops were stationed

00:45:39

near Kiev, near Chernigov, near

00:45:41

Sumy remember, that is, we were talking about

00:45:43

several areas. And how would we

00:45:45

keep these people, where would we find them

00:45:47

work, in fact, our European

00:45:50

allies saved our economy

00:45:53

that they took over the provision of these

00:45:56

people, I am not talking about humanitarian

00:45:59

aspects and treating people as for

00:46:02

the serfs, today it is more profitable for us that you

00:46:05

go, and now you have to come

00:46:08

because we want to pay taxes,

00:46:11

pay taxes, this is also a very strange attitude

00:46:13

towards people, it is once again said that people who,

00:46:15

therefore, if this is the product of some

00:46:17

discussions in their circle, then this people who

00:46:19

simply do not understand that they are living in the 20th

00:46:21

century, no one knows if people

00:46:24

have returned to the country in such numbers now,

00:46:26

whether there would be jobs for them in

00:46:28

our country, and there is unemployment among those people who

00:46:31

are there and we cannot provide everyone with

00:46:33

jobs. I would like to remind you that

00:46:36

most of our economy

00:46:38

has been destroyed, most of the territory is

00:46:41

occupied, if we believe that we

00:46:44

will create some new jobs for

00:46:46

people, then I want to reassure everyone that

00:46:47

sooner rather than later, if the war continues,

00:46:50

the economy will be destroyed and

00:46:52

not regenerated, it is possible to hold a

00:46:55

million conferences on the restoration of

00:46:56

Ukraine, but this restoration will really

00:46:58

begin

00:47:00

after there are guarantees of security

00:47:03

for

00:47:04

investors. Therefore, it is also a question of what we

00:47:07

need now. Maybe we need to improve our

00:47:09

own tax system.

00:47:24

Ukrainians should understand a

00:47:26

simple thing about the future.

00:47:27

Ukraine must realize that it is

00:47:30

turning into a state with a very large

00:47:33

diaspora if we want to

00:47:36

survive as a civilization. If we need lobby groups

00:47:38

in other countries, we need to establish with this

00:47:40

diaspora as the most valuable

00:47:43

contact for us in of the future, we need to act

00:47:45

the way the Irish do, the Prime Minister of

00:47:47

Ireland, members of the Irish government on

00:47:49

St. Patrick's Day, they go

00:47:52

to Irish communities around the world,

00:47:54

no one stays in Ireland, so it

00:47:56

should have been here on the main holidays of

00:47:58

Ukraine, the President of Ukraine and Ukrainian

00:48:00

leaders had to go to the Ukrainians of

00:48:02

the diaspora, not to stay in Ukraine, well, let

00:48:04

the president remain, then he is a symbol of

00:48:06

statehood. The president of Ireland also

00:48:08

remains, but the members of the government, representatives of the

00:48:10

GD organization there, should still

00:48:12

spend Independence Day with the Ukrainians of

00:48:14

the diaspora, because there will be millions of them too.

00:48:16

If we become a state of 25-30

00:48:19

mlniv well 35, God forbid, this is an optimistic

00:48:22

forecast, and abroad there will be 10-15

00:48:26

million Ukrainians, and it may

00:48:27

be that they will have more children than here.

00:48:29

Will they be more reborn as

00:48:31

communities than Ukrainians as a state?

00:48:33

community was an

00:48:37

important part of the Ukrainian

00:48:38

identity, we need what I want, you

00:48:40

want the Ukrainian world, and if we

00:48:43

draw a line, you left and we

00:48:46

stayed.

00:48:47

Today, the world is

00:48:49

free, nobody is chained to any

00:48:53

territory. A person is chained only to

00:48:55

his own identity and his own choice.

00:48:57

You can be in Ukraine not to feel like a

00:48:59

Ukrainian for one minute and

00:49:04

we have enough of such people, and after the war there will be even

00:49:08

more. And you can be

00:49:12

in emigration and consider yourself a Ukrainian and

00:49:16

continue to build the Ukrainian

00:49:18

world. The people who are

00:49:20

in their warm offices and

00:49:23

give recommendations to everyone piss me off more than anything

00:49:26

teach

00:49:27

to live. I will never take such a right upon myself.

00:49:30

I will never begin to teach life as a

00:49:33

person who has made a choice.

00:49:38

The same goes for a person who is in the trenches at the front. The most disgusting thing you can do is to

00:49:41

put on a military uniform and sit

00:49:44

somewhere in the rear with the

00:49:48

look of a mentor. a mentor or a

00:49:51

Marshal of some Soviet Army

00:49:53

to tell how everyone should serve, how everyone

00:49:56

will live, no, the first thing to do in

00:49:58

such a situation is to take a rifle, it

00:50:02

fits the military uniform, go to zero

00:50:04

yourself, and only after that, if you survive,

00:50:07

start Maybe say something to people or

00:50:10

just give the opportunity to say some

00:50:12

warm words to them near your grave, it will be

00:50:15

more convincing at the grave, it is always

00:50:17

more convincing than when you sit hundreds of

00:50:20

kilometers from the front line and pretend to be a

00:50:23

defender of the Motherland, we are all the same

00:50:25

Defenders of the Motherland, I apologize to those who do not

00:50:27

risk their lives every day there in

00:50:29

terrible conditions stopping the Russians and when

00:50:33

there is no such line, when We do not understand the

00:50:35

difference between those who risk their

00:50:38

lives and those who do not,

00:50:41

it is very dangerous, this is really a danger

00:50:45

and it can really create a

00:50:47

misunderstanding of

00:50:49

respect and honor in society. Arestovych became the

00:50:52

most cited person in Ukraine in

00:50:56

2023 year Well, literally, I recently

00:50:59

watched YouTube again somewhere, and they

00:51:01

take interviews and comments on it, so what is your

00:51:04

opinion, why is this happening, and in general,

00:51:06

how is information hygiene in Ukraine

00:51:09

maintained, or is it even worth

00:51:11

interviewing respected journalists in such

00:51:14

figures as Aristovych he was an adviser to the

00:51:17

president's office, and therefore these

00:51:20

statements of his were perceived as the position of the

00:51:23

authorities, I am convincing you that Borystovich

00:51:26

was acting as an independent expert, he

00:51:30

would not have had such curiosity from him, and the focus of this

00:51:33

situation was that Arestovych seemed to take over the

00:51:36

functions of the voice The authorities do not

00:51:40

have any real powers to do this, and this is

00:51:42

such an absolutely strange information

00:51:45

strategy, whether it is thought out or not. I think it is

00:51:48

because, in principle, this should not be the case here,

00:51:51

and to this day the

00:51:56

advisor of the president's office or he is the advisor of the

00:51:59

head of the office speaks on behalf of the authorities. the president seems to be speaking, and in

00:52:01

principle the press secretary of the president should speak. And

00:52:03

nothing is heard about him at all,

00:52:05

as it happens absolutely

00:52:07

correctly in the United States, where a

00:52:11

representative of the State

00:52:12

Department speaks, where the press secretary of the

00:52:15

president of Russia speaks, Piskov, there are not

00:52:17

advisers speaking, and we understand that this is the

00:52:19

real voice of

00:52:21

Putin, real, but the voice of Medvezev, I am the

00:52:25

deputy chairman of the Security Council, is already

00:52:27

causing us doubts. Is this an informational

00:52:30

provocation? A

00:52:38

person who does not bear responsibility speaks out,

00:52:40

of course. She can

00:52:42

say a lot if people

00:52:44

perceive her as the voice of the government, then the Government, on the one

00:52:46

hand, allows her to speak on her

00:52:48

behalf, and on the other hand, the Government itself does not

00:52:50

speak out and is not responsible for her.

00:52:57

what is wrong? I think that making

00:52:59

official statements about what is

00:53:01

happening in the Russian-Ukrainian

00:53:04

war should be the first thing to do. There is the

00:53:06

president and there is his address. This is an

00:53:08

official position that is less quoted than the

00:53:11

positions of the president's advisers. This is a strange

00:53:13

thing. There is a press secretary. of the president who

00:53:16

should make

00:53:18

comments on behalf of the authorities, the

00:53:22

representative of the Ministry of Foreign

00:53:23

Affairs, this is all happening. It just doesn't

00:53:25

have such a resonance. Maybe it's because these

00:53:28

people are all saying what they want to hear. And the

00:53:31

authorities understand that we want to hear, it's not

00:53:34

just us. there external ho

00:53:37

wants to hear something else And in the duties of the

00:53:41

office advisers from the beginning of the arrestee,

00:53:43

now the podolika is just right to say

00:53:46

what they want to hear. That is, this is

00:53:49

such an information specific

00:53:52

policy. This is such a specific information policy that

00:53:53

I am very surprised. It is like a marathon background, a

00:53:55

specific information policy very

00:53:57

strange, but it then destroys the relationship between the

00:54:00

government and society, because if people

00:54:02

really believed that Arestovich was saying that

00:54:04

everything would end quickly, and that is what they believe

00:54:06

in power. they

00:54:13

continue to treat Aristovych with

00:54:15

curiosity because he is an expert, this

00:54:17

undermines trust in the government, and now

00:54:20

Arestovich, without a position, can say

00:54:22

that the government is

00:54:23

not

00:54:25

what we thought, relatively speaking, but we

00:54:28

trust him because he

00:54:29

spoke on behalf of this government, so he he already

00:54:32

knows everything about her Or maybe he had no

00:54:34

real relationship with her, we can't do

00:54:36

that either, we don't

00:54:37

know anything, and that's a problem. And again, it's not a

00:54:39

problem of an arrestee with an arrestee, everything

00:54:41

was

00:54:43

always clear, this is a person who lives in

00:54:46

his own civilization the world in the world of

00:54:48

her own ideas, she broadcasts this world

00:54:50

to the outside, well, she knows how to broadcast as much as the

00:54:56

audience likes it, because there are people who are

00:54:58

interested when a thought

00:55:00

does not end and is not fully formed. it is

00:55:09

very important, we think very often.

00:55:12

Why do people listen to some theses

00:55:13

that are not fully formed because they

00:55:15

can come up with them themselves, it is like the image of the

00:55:18

president in 2019, it is like a designer.

00:55:28

Of course This is

00:55:29

technology and it can be

00:55:31

information technology as well, of course we

00:55:33

see how it works, it is

00:55:36

effective but it does not give anything realistically

00:55:39

because I always say reality will always

00:55:45

reach you at the door ot Earlier

00:55:47

there Aristovych said that the war will

00:55:49

end quickly the reality of a knock but now

00:55:51

he says that it is necessary to negotiate with

00:55:52

Russia because the West did not come to the war,

00:55:55

reality is knocking, not because

00:55:57

the West came or not, but because it turns out

00:55:58

that Russia is not going to negotiate with us,

00:55:59

what will Oleristovych do after that?

00:56:04

if the social

00:56:06

phenomenon that I wanted to discuss with you and

00:56:08

hear your opinion, which divides

00:56:11

Ukrainians, maybe it is just For example,

00:56:14

one girl, a well-known blogger on

00:56:17

Instagram, wrote that she used to

00:56:20

go to the gym, and now she bought

00:56:23

this sports equipment for herself at home and

00:56:27

works out at home and They started writing to her

00:56:29

saying, why did you buy this tool

00:56:31

so expensive, you could give this money

00:56:34

to the army and then go to the gym. And she

00:56:37

replied, Listen, the war can

00:56:39

last there for another 10, 20, 50 years, so why

00:56:42

don't I live, I don't buy for myself there are

00:56:45

tools, don't eat, don't go on vacation, and

00:56:48

so on and so on, that's your opinion.

00:56:50

People in Ukraine have the right, let's say, to

00:56:54

live as they see fit. Let's say whether to

00:56:55

buy expensive things or

00:56:58

go on vacation to some resort.

00:57:01

Let's show off. These are different things. it's

00:57:03

surprising, I'm just not a social

00:57:05

media person, I don't understand and never will understand

00:57:09

why a person must tell the

00:57:11

whole world which gym she went to,

00:57:14

which restaurant

00:57:16

she ate cake in, that's the problem

00:57:21

if you're in a warring country and you can't

00:57:24

stop self-promotion it is a problem if

00:57:27

you live an ordinary life, it is not a

00:57:28

problem And it

00:57:31

makes a difficult impression

00:57:34

on the Russians on their propagandists that

00:57:36

Putin did not succeed in destroying our

00:57:38

ordinary everyday life and this to a certain

00:57:40

extent Russia constantly asks the Russians what

00:57:42

we are fighting for when they

00:57:44

live They have an army, it protects them.

00:57:47

They still live and give money for the army and

00:57:49

live their lives, which we could not

00:57:51

destroy, if we want to say Russians.

00:57:53

Yes, we succeeded.

00:57:59

we didn't live anymore, we already achieved something, Ukrainians

00:58:03

can't afford anything for

00:58:04

a few more years and that's it, they're with It's like with a

00:58:08

fortress, if people storming a fortress

00:58:12

see what's coming to them on the walls of the

00:58:15

fortress, they show them

00:58:17

a ham, so to speak, then they understand what's with something is

00:58:20

wrong with them and their assault. And if they

00:58:22

are told that they ate the

00:58:25

last rat, well, everything is fine, everything is

00:58:28

fine. They will soon simply die of

00:58:30

hunger or capitulate, so in fact, let

00:58:33

no one say our normal life is

00:58:36

one of the important things. important

00:58:38

elements of our resistance to the Russians, because

00:58:41

if we talk, you know, the

00:58:42

Russians live and do not experience war,

00:58:44

but we here feel it, we die, this is

00:58:46

exactly what Moscow requires of us

00:58:48

to show everyone what happens to those who do not

00:58:50

obey Russia. Look, you are there

00:58:53

in Minsk in Vastan in Tashkent,

00:58:55

you live beautifully because you are our friends and do what

00:58:58

you are told, but Ukrainians know that

00:59:01

now they cannot go to the gym and

00:59:03

properly and soon everyone

00:59:04

will have a rest, everything is fine, we all

00:59:09

live anyway, we all continue to live one way or

00:59:12

another, buy for ourselves new clothes Although I will

00:59:15

tell you that I have less because I am used to

00:59:18

buying clothes abroad and since I have

00:59:21

not left there for two years, I do not

00:59:23

buy them Now nothing special on the other

00:59:25

hand I discovered

00:59:26

some Ukrainian things there and I am very happy I buy

00:59:29

Ukrainian things mean that I give

00:59:31

people the opportunity to work in our economy,

00:59:35

that is, in this grief, I am not looking for some

00:59:40

moments that create a chance. But in

00:59:42

any case, I see these people

00:59:45

in shops in crowded

00:59:48

supermarkets. People buy food of

00:59:51

different quality and expensive. including the

00:59:55

resort hotels of Ukraine are full as

00:59:58

they have never been full. Because

01:00:00

many people do not go abroad, you can

01:00:02

now see what is happening in

01:00:04

Transcarpathia and Galicia, that even such

01:00:07

places where only you and I knew where to

01:00:09

go. And now you come and there is

01:00:11

half of Ukraine is located in every

01:00:13

Transcarpathian village, some

01:00:16

huge new hotels are being built, they are

01:00:18

probably resting, well, this is the way it will be in the

01:00:22

future. And by the way, it must be said right away that

01:00:25

here is our government, when it created

01:00:28

these

01:00:30

conditions for

01:00:34

men of mobilization age, it

01:00:36

contributed to boom in the tourism

01:00:38

industry, and on the one hand,

01:00:41

when we understand this, we also understand

01:00:44

what these people mean, one way or another,

01:00:46

they swim in these pools, go to the

01:00:50

mountains, ski not only in

01:00:52

Bukovel, as you understand, just Bukovel

01:00:55

is such a symbol, and such places are very

01:00:57

a lot and that we don't need to do anything,

01:01:00

it's also strange, you see. We also have

01:01:03

cynicism in that if you go somewhere to

01:01:05

rest in Ukraine, it's normal if

01:01:06

you are photographed

01:01:10

somewhere, relatively speaking, at a resort near

01:01:13

Kraków, it's terrible

01:01:16

it looks strange because a person is just himself, if

01:01:20

he is not in an unreal theater

01:01:23

of combat, he lives his daily life,

01:01:25

and by the way, if he is in a

01:01:27

theater of combat, then it is necessary to create

01:01:28

conditions so that he can live and

01:01:31

rest, not just to give people a vacation,

01:01:33

but to give them the opportunity

01:01:34

to rest in hotels so that the State

01:01:37

finances it, you understand. As a Ukrainian,

01:01:39

Israel, let’s say, you served in the army,

01:01:41

not in the war, but in the regular army, and you

01:01:43

receive

01:01:45

money for traveling abroad after your military service. And why

01:01:48

can’t we do this for our soldiers

01:01:51

if we are from you will pretend that

01:01:52

nothing is happening, that no one is living,

01:01:55

that life is on pause, then that

01:01:57

will be a lie Why do we have to tell

01:01:59

a lie just so that someone likes this lie,

01:02:01

we are in this society in general,

01:02:03

which is full of cynicism,

01:02:07

and we have already made all the mistakes that we could

01:02:09

you know it's like with corruption that we all

01:02:11

fight corruption and everyone knows how to

01:02:13

solve each one of us all for mobilization they

01:02:17

only have to mobilize their neighbor and here I

01:02:20

will find opportunities to solve the

01:02:22

issue of my relative

01:02:24

I don't write on Facebook Let all men

01:02:27

go to the front but my brother and my

01:02:30

husband Well, I have opportunities, I will find

01:02:32

opportunities for them to work on the

01:02:34

economic front, I just think you

01:02:36

understand, the longer the war lasts,

01:02:38

the more such moments

01:02:40

will arise in society, you know,

01:02:43

some kind of hatred, so that it does not happen when everyone

01:02:45

hates everyone for some reason there is a

01:02:48

mistake, a small detail. Well, it was like that before the

01:02:50

war, on the other hand. Well, we understand that it

01:02:52

can be like that, by the way, war is always a

01:02:54

path to social injustice, and to

01:02:55

injustice, the number of people who

01:02:58

will have less money will grow, the

01:03:00

social gap will increase, this is

01:03:02

war, someone war will destroy itself, and

01:03:04

someone will remain whole, the one who

01:03:06

will remain whole will be able to continue

01:03:07

on, the one who will destroy himself internally

01:03:09

will not be able to Vitali, thank you very much for this

01:03:11

conversation Thank you, I hope it

01:03:15

was interesting to you too Thank you very much Natalya

01:03:18

[music]

01:03:19

[applause]

01:03:23

thank you Y

Description:

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