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Channel: Живой Гвоздь

венедиктов

пастухов

живой гвоздь

политика

00:00:18

20-22 which we

00:00:21

continue to discuss

00:00:23

events people people events 22 years old my

00:00:29

name is Vitaly Dymarsky today my

00:00:30

guests interlocutor political scientist Gleb

00:00:32

Pavlovsky for watering welcome you

00:00:35

hello

00:00:38

[music]

00:00:41

now it’s ok with sound yes

00:00:45

well let’s start

00:00:48

discussing the events of this week then I would like

00:00:52

this where to start, in one of your

00:00:56

recent programs you talked about the

00:00:58

feeling of a certain impasse

00:01:02

in what is happening in Ukraine

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over these past weeks,

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let’s say over the last few weeks, there is a feeling,

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firstly, that the parties are looking for a way out of this

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impasse, and secondly if you, if this is

00:01:21

embroidered behind a steep peak, the

00:01:25

parties are probably looking for a way out, but they do

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n’t want to talk about it

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because

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in every country

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such talk now looks

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defeatist from their point of view and is unlikely to be

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approved by

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the population, but of course they are looking for a way out, I’m

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afraid they’re just looking for this way out through

00:01:58

what - some kind of quick dagger

00:02:02

test of strength, most likely in the south of Ukraine

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there are no rumors about the

00:02:13

spread of

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hostilities to other countries, but I

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think that now we are not talking about this

00:02:20

yet,

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although escalation is always narrowed down in

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such

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viscous wars as without an obvious clear goals

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therefore at some point of escalation

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is possible, but it seems to me that it will be

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local and purely military and

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its victim

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will be the Kherson region, basically where

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each of the sides,

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so to speak, with their maneuvers, sometimes

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interesting military maneuvers,

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has put both the other side and itself in a

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difficult position because that

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crossings across the Dnieper and

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a number of factors seem to be

00:03:17

pushing

00:03:18

military operations to the shore,

00:03:23

so I think that now

00:03:26

[music]

00:03:28

my optimism looks like this:

00:03:30

now it will be very bad,

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but maybe not for long, after which the parties will

00:03:41

really begin

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to look for an

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option option negotiations now I I wouldn’t go into

00:03:50

negotiations, I don’t

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think so, no, well, you know, there are always

00:03:55

so-called secret channels and in

00:03:59

which, so to speak,

00:04:02

some things are first made their way,

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I would like to think that they are here too,

00:04:10

but I’m not sure,

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but you leave we can’t be sure of anything

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because of course incredible

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lack of information I have dollars purely

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firstly purely military to information

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first of all yes well and everything that

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agreed with this hide rip profits

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and propaganda theory with a surplus of income there

00:04:36

is no shortage here but

00:04:41

we all said that of

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course this is understandable but what in

00:04:47

presidents of

00:04:49

any prezi, not only of the

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warring parties in this

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conflict, but students of all other

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countries in one way or another in this set of

00:04:59

participants, of course, look back at

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themselves at home for their country and

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see

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to what extent this

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hinders or helps, how much it influences the

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course itself. this military action is a

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strange question, this war is a

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war, call it

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given, a

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military operation is a form of an act of war,

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in view of what then

00:05:39

if the question is not entirely clear, yes, this is

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what I mean, it is

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necessary if someday it ends in

00:05:48

something, yes it

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means and like everyone is looking for that option a

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final that will suit not only

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the enemy, but also

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public opinion itself for also remaining in

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power,

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that is, this is the desire to remain

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in power to be re-elected by him or simply

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or to nullify something there and so on,

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how much does it interfere with the

00:06:14

hindrance of the search, as I see it

00:06:18

now

00:06:19

none of the presidents have such a

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risk; the President of the United

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States Biden has a weakening position and the

00:06:31

Democratic Party in the midterm

00:06:33

elections

00:06:34

has this risk and he takes it seriously. I'm

00:06:40

afraid there is no immediate risk as president

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because no

00:06:46

one will re-elect them

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for various reasons. at this time, well,

00:06:54

of course, they don’t monitor the fighting spirit of their

00:06:59

armed forces and their countries,

00:07:02

fighting spirit is very important, so we have such a

00:07:07

monstrous amount of

00:07:09

propaganda there, some

00:07:13

explosions in the Crimea at the Russian

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Andromeda facility were the main

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topic for a week, that in itself

00:07:30

alarming, to be honest,

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it makes me think that something is wrong here, there

00:07:43

will be a test of strength and it will somehow become

00:07:47

clear in one way or another,

00:07:54

weaknesses or this will be revealed because you understand, there

00:07:58

is a problem of procrastination,

00:08:02

those who conduct military operations

00:08:05

usually think that they are fighting for a

00:08:10

kind of continuation

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for the best result, it seems to them that

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unscrewing the ending, so to speak, improves their

00:08:21

position; at some point it turns out that

00:08:23

this is not the case in all wars,

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but it may take a long time

00:08:32

before

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that, so until the last moment we don’t

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know what so to speak, and about what is

00:08:42

clicking

00:08:44

in the head of the warring leader and what and what they

00:08:48

consider the finale, what the accounts are in the end, well, yes,

00:08:51

because they can’t take weeks to settle,

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but in general this is a very interesting

00:08:58

question, this is the victory of thoughts, they

00:09:03

can’t leave the topic of victories at all They always

00:09:07

talk about the theme of victories there in a completely

00:09:11

terrible war of 2 Middle Eastern countries of the

00:09:15

world and joy with cancer at the end of the last

00:09:19

century,

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both sides fought in the end,

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it’s true they fought for 8 years, they held every

00:09:26

victory parade

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based on the results, and the price of this victory parade

00:09:32

was not about a million people, it’s but

00:09:36

this is inevitable, this is important for

00:09:39

motivating the troops themselves, of course,

00:09:45

and of course,

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Ukrainian Russian public

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opinion is structured differently now,

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Ukrainian is simply

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mobilized very strongly towards the idea of defending

00:10:00

defenses

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and winning through this, but there is one

00:10:06

side that I don’t really like, I was

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still waiting for when

00:10:12

Russian intellectuals

00:10:14

will deal with the

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reality of war, that is, the problem of peace, and they

00:10:20

will begin

00:10:22

to develop some ideas; plans may

00:10:26

even be fantastic at first;

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perseverance, well,

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no post, military; upon leaving the

00:10:35

military, you are just seeing a way out; a

00:10:39

very complex technique; it’s easy to start; just take it

00:10:45

out; it’s difficult

00:10:47

here ideas are needed so races who read

00:10:51

the memoirs

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about the

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completion of the warrior knows well how

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difficult it was, how and how many details there are

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instead, however, Russian

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intellectuals

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began to create,

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so to speak, some kind of coalition, talked about the

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war with Russia, that

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is, they had the idea that

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Ukraine should defeat Russia and then

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here to say

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finish with this, you mean anti-

00:11:30

Putin,

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well, don’t yell, and the pro-Putin

00:11:36

intellectual

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tries, demands, demands to continue

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the banquet, yes, well, yes, but we have them,

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I showed them, he pays, well, it’s

00:11:51

politically weak to encourage,

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he keeps how to say in toys, well,

00:11:59

they Of course, all the war parties have them in

00:12:03

every sport of mine,

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several military parties have

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varying degrees of interest, and

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of course they are all terribly interfering with the

00:12:16

resolution of the crisis, they

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just start screaming like

00:12:21

Dexter, Senator McCarthy raged

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during the Korean War, that

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President Truman is a traitor, which means he is

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leading things to defeat, to the defeat of the nation

00:12:36

from the Koreans means the Chinese so

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of course we have it, thank God

00:12:45

they maybe I don’t know, it seems to me that

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they don’t influence that much and the chance is how the

00:12:52

influence is determined because they have

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quite a lot of them on the

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Russian television screen on the Russian channel the

00:13:04

main pasture and

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then Of course, they have an influence on

00:13:13

some hardware circles, I’m not talking about the

00:13:16

fact that there are simply

00:13:18

lobbyists here who are interested for one

00:13:21

reason or another in

00:13:24

this war, but what is said on

00:13:27

television has little strategic

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significance, that is,

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I would not risk

00:13:35

taking advantage of it if I were our military their dog is not what is

00:13:39

happening on television this is expressed

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in numbers I don’t remember which

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sociological service Ivanovsky

00:13:46

no

00:13:47

81 percent before the support

00:13:50

became boring the outcome is

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given I am wary of these not

00:13:56

alone yes it is clear

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all the time it will be but but but undoubtedly there

00:14:04

is here I said some new

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factor, unlike the previous situation,

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each

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military conflict gave rise to a surge in popularity of the

00:14:18

authorities, this time there, according to my

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population, they like this series itself,

00:14:28

they are

00:14:30

here, as if this is not so similar to the

00:14:34

story with the Crimea

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or the past history of

00:14:39

Georgia

00:14:41

quickly, they like the fact that this

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series can be watched in safety and from a

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safe distance,

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the population who watch this series, we

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mean first of all, of course,

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capital cities, big cities, yes,

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because what is happening in the provinces,

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we are only down on the m and as I understand

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the provinces this is the main supplier of

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human resources,

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let’s say, not of their own free will,

00:15:15

people are not rushing to the resource supplier, there are

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no mass records there;

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I know the volunteer by heart, and there

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is also recruitment

00:15:28

in the regions where the salary is 20, I

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offer a conditional volume of 70, I don’t know

00:15:37

how much they offer there and sometimes

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more more table

00:15:43

how much more importantly that much more a

00:15:45

series of people agree to voluntarily

00:15:48

kill yes I understand that people agree,

00:15:51

it’s a

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voluntary act signing a contract but in general speaking to them they have

00:16:01

few options to choose from they don’t

00:16:05

choose between varieties of

00:16:08

smoothies and

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raffa and other capital pleasures of

00:16:16

observing the capitals you can

00:16:19

watch Moscow, but for

00:16:20

St. Petersburg here you go out into the street and I

00:16:24

think to be a person from where those who came from

00:16:27

will not believe and will not understand that now somewhere

00:16:30

because this country is somewhere there with

00:16:32

someone there is at war or something like this, the

00:16:35

leader unscrews the special one and

00:16:38

smears, well, yes, this has already

00:16:40

been noted by many; an

00:16:43

absolutely peaceful life is not the Kremlin

00:16:45

trying to maintain this balance;

00:16:49

will my coach succeed? It’s difficult to say

00:16:54

about what he considers a victory. I

00:16:58

remembered here a wonderful phrase from the

00:17:01

wisest Churchill when he they asked

00:17:04

why we are fighting, he is grieving, we

00:17:07

will stop fighting then you will find out,

00:17:14

and

00:17:18

of course, because even now we don’t

00:17:23

really know why we

00:17:26

fought for 10 years in Afghanistan,

00:17:29

for which, frankly speaking, it’s some kind of

00:17:32

mystery

00:17:33

because there was no goal for Zak to conquer

00:17:37

Afghanistan. not goals as the

00:17:41

Americans suspected raiden suspected that the Russians

00:17:43

want to go to the warm seas this is an

00:17:46

amazing amazing idea that was completely

00:17:50

absent from our bosses,

00:17:52

so it’s not a fact that we will find out, you know,

00:17:58

here even now we can’t find out we can’t

00:18:01

show the islands as a husband for some reason,

00:18:04

from my point of view, any kind of peace is necessary at

00:18:08

a cost and already within the peace negotiations we

00:18:14

can argue,

00:18:16

seek

00:18:18

benefits, look for the guilty,

00:18:20

curse, and so on, but our Russian

00:18:24

style, unfortunately, is that

00:18:27

instead of analyzing the situation,

00:18:30

we begin to curse a proposal for a way out,

00:18:33

I think that the curse

00:18:37

will come true on its own, but somehow how will they influence

00:18:42

reality on the war influence not for the

00:18:45

brothers

00:18:48

yes yes yes the

00:18:51

question is also a question of the ensuing

00:18:55

events of this week

00:18:58

Eastern Europe is simply raging said yes

00:19:02

in particular the Baltic states Estonia Latvia

00:19:06

every day there are some statements

00:19:08

but in general it concerns, if we generalize a little,

00:19:11

such collective

00:19:13

responsibility Russia do not issue

00:19:16

passports

00:19:17

in the garden Zelensky spoke about this in an

00:19:19

interview with your post no do not issue visas

00:19:24

take away already the service that today he

00:19:27

said in person to take away visas that have already been

00:19:29

issued not to be allowed into Europe and so on and so forth, it is

00:19:33

unlikely that these initiatives

00:19:36

will be implemented, the news I have is this

00:19:39

a feeling in a number of this, France and Germany

00:19:41

will agree to this for

00:19:43

the poorest, but individual countries can

00:19:46

introduce some kind of their own

00:19:48

restrictions,

00:19:50

well, they can’t be found, I think that

00:19:54

orgies with will not be of course not of course,

00:19:58

yes, and they will be considered in general and after that it

00:20:03

has not settled down at all also

00:20:07

in different countries there are different regimes

00:20:11

of entry, in fact, this is added to

00:20:17

this desire, what is it, this desire,

00:20:21

as it were, to take part

00:20:25

in someone else’s war for free with someone

00:20:29

or with a political one for political

00:20:33

gain or personal benefit for oneself

00:20:38

because the states

00:20:40

as far as I am concerned I know disavowed in some

00:20:43

sense, although they are not Europe, but they kind of

00:20:47

quite sharply

00:20:49

disavowed this idea,

00:20:52

the idea that the

00:20:55

free movement of people are

00:20:58

privileges that can be granted

00:21:01

or taken away, this in itself, by the way, is a very

00:21:06

Soviet idea, it is

00:21:10

archaic and says that in some

00:21:14

countries have preserved such

00:21:19

rather archaic posts of

00:21:22

political consciousness of some kind, now you can see the

00:21:26

Baltic countries in Poland on the map in the Czech Republic they

00:21:30

also said something like that, but I think

00:21:33

that this will most likely end up not a topic, I’m

00:21:36

curious how

00:21:40

it caused such controversy,

00:21:45

as

00:21:46

Professor Filippov noted, it seems to

00:21:50

score sadists as masochists means to

00:21:54

say

00:21:57

in itself

00:22:00

this is

00:22:02

useless and meaningless, and polemics

00:22:06

again tell me personally that

00:22:11

people don’t want to solve real problems,

00:22:14

they want to deal with some bright

00:22:20

scandals,

00:22:21

in general this speaks poorly in my opinion

00:22:25

about the

00:22:26

current generation

00:22:28

Russian intelligentsia

00:22:30

and as for these countries and there in one

00:22:34

country I don’t remember which election is just around the corner

00:22:36

in Latvia

00:22:39

and then there is the

00:22:44

usual indulgence of the Baltic solidarity, and there seems to be

00:22:48

an idea that

00:22:53

since it is known that it’s

00:22:56

like a girl walking in criminal

00:23:01

places at night she risks something like 4, if

00:23:06

something happens she just needs to scream loudly,

00:23:09

then you can start screaming loudly before

00:23:12

the risk arises

00:23:15

because of course Europe will in

00:23:20

some sense console its

00:23:23

nervous

00:23:24

members, again

00:23:27

the European Union well, somehow it will probably issue

00:23:30

some kind of grand security

00:23:35

when this appeal is even the aging hell of

00:23:38

the union to the United States, which they

00:23:40

consider the only guarantor of their

00:23:42

security, well, yes,

00:23:45

you know,

00:23:48

so to speak, there is no need to laugh at small countries,

00:23:51

they just think differently,

00:23:55

see the world differently, this is normal,

00:23:59

pray compare, I remember everything, I

00:24:01

remembered an episode from a very long time ago, donuts not

00:24:04

30 -years ago,

00:24:06

such a discussion was public, then

00:24:08

everything was normal between Landsbergis himself, the

00:24:11

then head of the

00:24:12

Lithuanian state, them, one of

00:24:15

ours, or GMO list of, in my opinion, the big ones

00:24:18

who said, but there, like, excuse

00:24:21

the way Russia behaved, I’m treating the

00:24:24

Soviet Union, the weather in Lithuania, all these

00:24:27

great events view of youth here is an elephant in a

00:24:30

china shop

00:24:31

he always and himself so video to which he

00:24:34

brought us answered yes I understand that he

00:24:37

says but when in these china shop there

00:24:40

is one small one

00:24:42

wearing a valuable cup call Lithuania we feel

00:24:46

very sorry for her and regardless the elephant

00:24:49

gave it to this shop out of malice or contributed

00:24:52

[music]

00:24:54

or in connection with this, it still seems like it’s going to the point

00:25:02

that they want to stake a claim, and

00:25:04

by the way, McFaul,

00:25:06

better known to us, is the American ambassador in a

00:25:09

kindergarten in Russia

00:25:12

also took the initiative to

00:25:17

synthesize so that

00:25:19

people who are Russians who travel to

00:25:22

Europe receive visas as he said in

00:25:25

free strange something like this

00:25:28

clothes to pay a tax that will go to the

00:25:31

recovery fund after the war in

00:25:33

Ukraine

00:25:37

some kind of thing we are talking about we are talking about Felix

00:25:39

how to generally treat

00:25:42

the concept about collective responsibility,

00:25:45

but Colin, the concept of collective

00:25:48

responsibility

00:25:49

is nonsense, in this case it is inappropriate, and

00:25:54

even in order to

00:25:57

recognize

00:25:59

some solidarity,

00:26:02

some kind of

00:26:05

organized group of countries, a coalition of

00:26:07

countries, is needed to recognize what feature

00:26:12

collective responsibility is necessary,

00:26:14

some kind of

00:26:20

judicial process or some kind is necessary. then

00:26:22

there is nothing like this here yet, so this

00:26:25

is a topic designed for the fact that it

00:26:30

will cause

00:26:32

a storm in Russian heads

00:26:37

because, of course, this is a blow to the

00:26:40

interests of the Ants, for example, a direct

00:26:44

blow because there is

00:26:47

something here this leads to, again, this has a

00:26:51

political function,

00:26:53

I’m all time was a little involved in the

00:26:56

fate of 2 immigrations post-war in the late

00:27:00

forties,

00:27:02

they also had similar problems, the

00:27:06

thing is that

00:27:09

then, well, let’s say

00:27:12

little was said about humanitarian law, the

00:27:17

Cold War was beginning and

00:27:20

she could easily forgive the hot

00:27:25

reality was to end up in

00:27:29

some kind of filtration vogue

00:27:33

where, quite calmly,

00:27:36

all Western liberal democracies

00:27:40

during the war took anyone to

00:27:42

say the most in my opinion, even that’s why

00:27:48

people seemed to be trying

00:27:52

to worry and try to show their

00:27:56

loyalty to the

00:27:58

local administrations, they

00:28:00

told me a lot about this

00:28:03

in the late eighties, I visited the editorial office of the

00:28:08

then Radio Liberty with than the other

00:28:11

editorial staff and the set of Lutfi is not here, and there were

00:28:15

still personnel from that time working there, many of them,

00:28:19

so they said that how it is and who and

00:28:22

what it is, and forced it to be determined politically, as it were,

00:28:27

dryly publicly, in my opinion, the same thing is

00:28:31

happening now here, not here

00:28:36

among the Russians bag one let's to be

00:28:40

honest, not impressive, changes the forms and

00:28:43

congresses that go there one after

00:28:45

another they, that is, in them people look in

00:28:50

my opinion, people I know were

00:28:53

stupider than they really are, by the

00:28:56

way, in today's chat our programs the

00:28:59

first question was and as requested

00:29:02

Svetlana words I remember addressing you

00:29:05

happily I almost couldn’t find it, how do you

00:29:07

feel about the activities of the anti-war

00:29:10

committee, well, you know,

00:29:13

it’s with my

00:29:16

husband and everything that can be said, it could

00:29:18

be said just while

00:29:24

the organization of these subjects in fact,

00:29:29

it relates to the war, the war is going on, what she

00:29:33

can offer nothing in these situations

00:29:36

that she is against war, but I am also

00:29:40

against war and what next, but still

00:29:43

war is war

00:29:45

and military actions with military actions are not

00:29:48

terrible and you cannot

00:29:51

cancel them with shouts, so this very committee

00:29:58

has some- then the radicals, but this also does

00:30:02

not play a special role

00:30:04

in my opinion, the problem is that without

00:30:08

objectivity

00:30:10

they cannot offer

00:30:13

some kind of strategy to the public,

00:30:16

for example,

00:30:19

mitigating the horrors of war and bang, and that means

00:30:23

being more suggested heights and talking and

00:30:25

considering them there were some

00:30:28

we so we are talking about as if for the first time you are spitting

00:30:32

war for the first time there were a lot of warriors often

00:30:36

more terrible, I mean only there,

00:30:39

say, in the last 50 70 years after the

00:30:42

Second World War,

00:30:45

every time there were some kind of public

00:30:48

initiatives, it was during the Vietnam

00:30:50

War, for example, I remember well there was an

00:30:53

initiative by Bertrand Russell

00:30:56

who

00:30:59

conducted an analysis

00:31:02

independent of the propaganda of either

00:31:05

side was the initiative of Dr. Spock

00:31:11

who created a public committee

00:31:14

went to read between the fronts and so on,

00:31:17

that is, why is this impossible,

00:31:21

if it was possible to clear the horizon

00:31:25

for the

00:31:26

export of grain from Ukraine,

00:31:29

then something is still possible

00:31:34

like you understand this agreement

00:31:38

[music]

00:31:39

remotely,

00:31:41

well, of course, the bolt is in particular the merit of

00:31:44

Erdogan if in the sky there are mediators in such

00:31:46

cases, it is very important that the presence of a mediator

00:31:49

was not a mediator recognized by both

00:31:51

countries until

00:31:53

our guys did not start

00:31:56

talking to each other and, as a result, on

00:31:58

black fire in

00:32:02

there are no elevators, this allows Dogan to certainly

00:32:06

benefit because but look

00:32:10

how in six months he

00:32:12

has grown into a world figure, he grew up during the

00:32:19

Armenian-Azerbaijani war and

00:32:22

continues to grow, it is absolutely clear that

00:32:26

he has his own strategy for

00:32:29

personal growth, he has grown into a figure in the

00:32:32

envy of Lukashenko’s Duma this is

00:32:35

certainly

00:32:39

then, after all, he has the Dardanelles in his hands, which

00:32:42

also means something, the famous

00:32:46

straits, which since leave the words on

00:32:49

this, and

00:32:51

by the way, now there is another such unpleasant

00:32:56

situation, it is natural that such events

00:32:58

arise at the same time, three days of summer, or in the

00:33:01

form of Zaporozhye and Zaporozhye nuclear power plant

00:33:04

before the stage is a very bad situation

00:33:07

outside it is really impossible to understand

00:33:13

who is how guilty

00:33:16

here I suspect that both sides are good here

00:33:22

because they seem to be well for them it is in

00:33:27

the end just a

00:33:28

military facility

00:33:31

this is a territory where it is possible not as if we

00:33:37

need it as there is such a concept disturbing

00:33:41

fire of shallots and where you can constantly

00:33:44

keep the

00:33:47

other side on guard, you can and then

00:33:53

report on every incident

00:33:57

through propaganda, this is, of course, ideal

00:34:02

Indian territory, but it’s terrible if at

00:34:07

some point someone doesn’t calculate it, that’s the

00:34:12

thing to

00:34:16

understand and not all weapons are high-precision, well,

00:34:20

yes not all

00:34:23

then high-precision weapons end up

00:34:27

in the hands of an amateur,

00:34:31

even if even if they do, even if they

00:34:35

remain high-precision in the hands of an amateur,

00:34:37

but all the other weapons, even in the hands, were

00:34:39

sold just in plaster for sure, that’s all,

00:34:42

so anything can be a very

00:34:45

dangerous situation,

00:34:47

first remember at the very beginning of this

00:34:50

operation

00:34:52

around Chernobyl there were such passions, yes

00:34:55

yes, but it was good enough to come

00:35:00

from the black side and

00:35:02

then take God, it’s all calm, the

00:35:11

upcoming referendums are apparently

00:35:13

coming and when or what, well,

00:35:19

actually

00:35:22

do you read with leprosy, is this a

00:35:25

decision

00:35:26

actually speaking about what the parties

00:35:31

in our

00:35:33

Russian system are about, the appeal has been made, a

00:35:36

decision must be understood

00:35:40

in double quotes,

00:35:44

such a concept as the go-ahead was given the go-ahead

00:35:48

to prepare referendums and is being prepared, but

00:35:53

the go-ahead does not mean a solution,

00:35:56

our problem of

00:35:58

our governance in Russia is that but

00:36:05

there are improvisations, it is continuous

00:36:08

provisions, we can remember like a

00:36:12

couple of cheeses ago there was no talk of any

00:36:16

referendums or any kind of inclusion of

00:36:19

the territory into Russia,

00:36:22

then it arose

00:36:25

improvised, we

00:36:28

can check this and it is possible, but

00:36:30

this is a sharp complication

00:36:33

for

00:36:35

Russia itself,

00:36:37

leaving aside all other

00:36:40

details, it

00:36:41

will complicate the situation with the

00:36:45

inauguration because it is

00:36:48

much more difficult to get out of them the more

00:36:51

you

00:36:52

involve,

00:36:54

as it were, you

00:36:57

create some kind of

00:36:59

unrecognized subject of law, supposedly the rights of

00:37:03

which no one recognizes as

00:37:07

such,

00:37:08

you then

00:37:10

populate your own bridgehead with

00:37:15

uncontrollable

00:37:17

forces, but this happened in the

00:37:19

fourteenth year, we observed this

00:37:21

very closely,

00:37:25

no one in general called Russia especially into the glue pva

00:37:31

really elements elements of the

00:37:33

civil war in Ukraine

00:37:35

this will be its own internal ends

00:37:38

civil what they say 4 was

00:37:42

to get involved in it to get involved that and

00:37:45

then they arose in this way because the

00:37:48

parties are interested in consolidating

00:37:52

their forces, so to speak, such cases

00:37:55

will arise and here some participants in

00:38:00

military operations with their own views on

00:38:04

its development on its future on their own

00:38:08

and their own interests they have their own vobis

00:38:14

arise this is if

00:38:18

Donetsk and the republic have gone through

00:38:22

at least some part of the

00:38:25

transformation into a real force which they

00:38:28

were not eight years ago, then this is generally

00:38:32

it’s unclear who included them in

00:38:35

the Russian federation we get

00:38:37

another nikken section in the world unrecognized

00:38:42

border of Russia

00:38:44

this is very serious I don’t

00:38:47

recognize the border one day

00:38:51

one day turns out to be a hero and

00:38:55

no one recognizes any everyone is trying

00:38:58

experience how much liver is not recognized

00:39:02

Baltic republics

00:39:04

baldinini lenovo it was yes that’s

00:39:07

right that was unrecognized at

00:39:11

first by almost no one except us, the logic of the

00:39:14

United States, which really did

00:39:16

not recognize nensi resero, the subject did not

00:39:19

recognize that I was recognized in many, not

00:39:22

most countries, in the

00:39:23

end, everything was recognized until in the seventy-

00:39:26

fifth year the Kherson

00:39:29

agreements were signed in Europe, all

00:39:32

borders were recognized then, born the basis of our

00:39:35

borders, yes, but we have the strength of our

00:39:41

deep pouring of legal thinking, it

00:39:43

seems to us that simply recognizing not

00:39:46

recognizing borders is not important, it doesn’t

00:39:49

matter, what will you do when

00:39:52

you have to

00:39:54

defend

00:39:56

territories that no one considers yours

00:40:00

and

00:40:01

who will be your ally here stepfather

00:40:05

question

00:40:06

allies are obliged to help you in the event of an

00:40:10

attack on your border, if they do not

00:40:13

recognize this part of the border, they will not step

00:40:17

aside

00:40:18

will step aside everything, I’m not even talking about

00:40:21

countries like China,

00:40:23

for example, they definitely will not participate

00:40:26

in such adventures, so this is a bad

00:40:30

idea, the

00:40:32

best what for it can be

00:40:35

used to

00:40:37

somehow speed up their

00:40:41

exit from hostilities, but I don’t see any

00:40:47

real steps towards this, but

00:40:50

as if the functionaries are happily

00:40:54

preparing a referendum and

00:40:56

how would all this

00:40:59

join Russia or

00:41:02

make a wreath on their own, you

00:41:04

know that until the last moment it

00:41:06

can be suspended

00:41:09

it was suspended in 2008 in Abkhazia

00:41:13

and South Ossetia

00:41:14

there were also hesitations until the last

00:41:17

moment and

00:41:19

even in the question of opening it was

00:41:23

suspended and also until the last moment

00:41:26

knowledgeable people say that there were two

00:41:30

options

00:41:31

speech

00:41:33

and, accordingly, an option decree that’s why

00:41:37

we can’t say there is here and there is a

00:41:41

backlash there is the possibility of some kind of hesitation

00:41:45

because what is

00:41:47

the principle of

00:41:49

Crimea

00:41:52

culturally how to

00:41:54

legitimize it was as part of the old

00:41:59

Russia but

00:42:02

forgive Kherson Mariupol and so on there is

00:42:09

no cultural legitimacy here and these referendums

00:42:14

will have even less legitimacy because

00:42:16

people there fled, they fled to Ukraine in Europe, they are not

00:42:20

refugees,

00:42:22

they are not just inhabitants of these places, that

00:42:26

is, this is all a bad idea that, as we

00:42:31

know, something needs to be done with

00:42:33

these formations, but something needs to be

00:42:37

done with them. why is it difficult

00:42:39

to imagine that mornings and points will be given back and back

00:42:42

while military operations are going on, there is

00:42:48

no talk at all about real borders,

00:42:51

there are simply lines of demarcation

00:42:54

and there are lines of battles, which is

00:42:59

the beauty, if you want, in quotes, the beauty of

00:43:04

such military

00:43:07

borders is that they can be how

00:43:12

to become whatever they want, they are simply a

00:43:16

subject of bargaining, a subject of negotiations, a

00:43:20

subject of tightening, but vich once again I am

00:43:24

always surprised as if in Russia they

00:43:26

first learned the existence of wars,

00:43:29

a truce,

00:43:31

temporary

00:43:33

dismantled zones, a line between them up to

00:43:37

half the world, thus

00:43:42

demarcating

00:43:43

certain states, indeed,

00:43:46

and here or so far since here and then

00:43:51

11 and the war in Korea ended God knows

00:43:55

when before the night there nine years 70 ago,

00:43:59

but there is

00:44:00

no political settlement in Korea

00:44:03

and there is still no such thing that it

00:44:09

was remembered in the peace treaty and

00:44:13

this is a line that, strictly speaking, is not

00:44:16

considered a state line the borders

00:44:19

are still the armistice lines,

00:44:21

well, well, this is not good, this is bad to

00:44:27

live on like this, maybe we are now preparing an

00:44:30

issue of the magazine that will be dedicated to the

00:44:32

Korean War, I would be surprised to know that it

00:44:36

has reached so far those there at point 20 thousand,

00:44:38

if I’m not mistaken, American troops

00:44:40

there too they still stand in South Korea, they

00:44:43

reaction is still under the flag as it

00:44:47

was

00:44:48

50, the apparatus needs it, but now it’s

00:44:52

not there, you’re calling back

00:44:55

because it doesn’t bother anyone anymore, then the

00:44:58

city can remain like this

00:45:03

until the end of the 21st century,

00:45:09

not recognized, drawing on the example of

00:45:12

Transnistria let’s say yes, well, he knows what’s

00:45:16

going on in Abkhazia, yours is sitting somewhere

00:45:18

forming some kind of black holes,

00:45:21

including for everyone and ore and

00:45:25

illegal activities,

00:45:26

well, of course, but you know

00:45:30

such black holes, Abkhazia outside was

00:45:34

quite

00:45:36

small but prosperous

00:45:39

Tula and smuggling economy in

00:45:43

Transnistria

00:45:45

about leather dastur minus

00:45:51

mandarin tourism research before the era and

00:45:56

this is the most

00:45:58

Romanian border of Ostap Bender's dreams

00:46:02

about the account to say, they all have Armenian

00:46:06

passports, not all are sovereign, but the most

00:46:10

delicious passports are very convenient,

00:46:12

so they are not so terrible I live in

00:46:18

Donetsk and it was also a very strange life,

00:46:23

in my opinion, there a few years ago I

00:46:28

observed

00:46:31

people in general, almost like in Moscow they sat

00:46:35

in a cafe,

00:46:36

rode scooters, but

00:46:39

sometimes they just got

00:46:40

fat in a cafe, it’s like the price of

00:46:47

such a life and in general

00:46:51

cross-border trade flourished and

00:46:53

very quickly and

00:46:56

what do you consider the borders between

00:46:59

children give to Russia that border and the

00:47:04

concept of coal was even more difficult because

00:47:07

this coal was naturally

00:47:11

Ukrainian, but it was very quickly laundered in

00:47:16

relation to coal, it sounds quite funny, it

00:47:19

became either Chinese or

00:47:22

Belarusian and so on in the course of some

00:47:24

paper transactions and then sold to a

00:47:27

variety of markets, that’s why,

00:47:32

but there were, in

00:47:34

fact, a lot of accusations against the

00:47:36

former president of

00:47:38

Ukraine

00:47:40

regarding his involvement in these

00:47:43

operations,

00:47:45

here is what our

00:47:47

listeners and viewers tell us

00:47:51

seconds, by the way,

00:47:56

Turkish Greek, but

00:48:00

I also think that if both wish I

00:48:03

have parties to Turkey and Greece

00:48:06

to take these territories for themselves, but still

00:48:09

somehow it’s not

00:48:13

international authorities between you and not

00:48:16

from zombies, they are, what’s the interesting

00:48:20

point, they don’t seem to prevent them from

00:48:24

being members of NATO

00:48:27

at the mercy of a controversial one, although it’s in what - in a

00:48:31

sense, the not very controversial European Union

00:48:35

recognizes only this part, the

00:48:38

Greek part of

00:48:40

Cyprus does not recognize the Turkish part, the Turkish part is

00:48:44

like Transnistria, well, although I

00:48:47

must say it’s quite comfortable there, it’s a

00:48:51

resort place, but you can only

00:48:55

get there from Turkey, there’s nowhere else you

00:48:58

can get transport there from Greece and

00:49:01

if you fall and the Nevsky goes out about

00:49:04

Greek Cyprus, you can cross the border there,

00:49:06

but before

00:49:11

our time ends, I would like to

00:49:15

speak up at the end, in fact,

00:49:18

unconditionally, solidarity with colleagues from the

00:49:22

new newspaper and for them to comment on

00:49:25

this amazing long time ago, my opinion is

00:49:28

the verdict, that’s what the court’s decision is, I’m

00:49:33

like this they broke their arm, for the first time I see the

00:49:36

abuse of freedom of the media,

00:49:43

there is such a Kabbalah that such an article

00:49:46

exists and it was simply deleted and was

00:49:49

never used monastically

00:49:52

because this video is somewhat comical

00:49:56

and even for the courts

00:49:59

it means, well, what can we say, this has not

00:50:07

yet

00:50:10

introduced any minimum guarantees

00:50:15

judicial consideration of

00:50:18

all such cases, we are

00:50:21

forced to consider all such cases

00:50:24

as if they were not legal and

00:50:27

political, and

00:50:30

we will not consider it so

00:50:33

that destruction has come to us,

00:50:38

the destruction of

00:50:40

not even

00:50:42

political media,

00:50:44

the destruction of simply the communicative

00:50:47

space of the Russian Federation

00:50:51

in the course of these first separate

00:50:55

electoral repressions, then no longer electoral

00:50:58

repressions and now

00:51:02

people are suffering,

00:51:04

people are suffering, people are suffering, and from

00:51:09

often

00:51:10

without any connection with their seemingly real

00:51:15

activity,

00:51:17

which is either not political

00:51:20

or is a speculative political

00:51:23

point of view of the court, and so on, that is,

00:51:27

we have the paradox of

00:51:28

our system in that

00:51:32

say the municipal authorities

00:51:36

silently and

00:51:37

in at the same time, dozens of people ended up in

00:51:43

prison for trying

00:51:45

to participate in elections to these same

00:51:48

silent institutions, that is, in the end

00:51:51

they are good only for one thing in order to

00:51:53

be and the traps are the

00:51:55

same here, there is a constant, I think it

00:52:00

already looks like some kind of

00:52:01

inertia,

00:52:04

like catching a journalist

00:52:09

which simply destroys the personnel reserve of

00:52:15

journalists of the Russian Federation and this is a

00:52:18

terrible situation, I

00:52:22

really don’t like this,

00:52:24

these are city laws or are not even doomed

00:52:29

to be abolished in the future next

00:52:32

frame of a new one, you know that’s

00:52:35

for sure, and you and I still remember how

00:52:41

all the people who were convicted were released at once

00:52:45

according to one or another

00:52:48

political article, but by the way, this

00:52:54

also has its own backside because

00:52:59

ordinary political prisoners were released and the camp population continued to grow, the

00:53:03

population of the camp continued to grow at the

00:53:07

expense of those with whom society is not so concerned, that

00:53:11

is, such dysfunctions

00:53:14

await us in the future, that’s why here as

00:53:17

they say, there is little joy,

00:53:20

well, in general there is little joy, but somehow I don’t

00:53:23

want to end the conversation, there is

00:53:26

little joy to give at least

00:53:28

the hope that next week

00:53:33

next week there will be at least a

00:53:35

little more joy and maybe we will get a

00:53:38

little

00:53:40

closer to a

00:53:42

civilian I want

00:53:46

to see some, albeit weak, even

00:53:51

fake, but some first steps towards

00:53:54

exiting this completely impossible

00:53:59

state,

00:54:01

waiting for these steps, we say goodbye,

00:54:04

thank you, there was a program for 2022 Vitaly

00:54:06

Dymarsky, my name is my interlocutor

00:54:09

for a strip of all the best

Description:

В эфире политолог Глеб Павловский. Ведущий: Виталий Дымарский. Поддержать Живой Гвоздь: https://pay.cloudtips.ru/p/7edd7c0e 🔔 Последние новости и анонсы программ с YouTube-канала «Живой гвоздь», а также контент от наших постоянных гостей и экспертов на официальном телеграм-канале: https://t.me/livegvozd Подписаться на Youtube-канал Дилетант: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuIE7-5QzeAR6EdZXwDRwuQ?sub_confirmation=1 📌 Живой гвоздь в аудиоформате: SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/user-524451485 Яндекс.Музыка: https://music.yandex.ru/album/22141653?dir=desc Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9-%D0%B3%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B4%D1%8C/id1616175210 Google Подкасты: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zb3VuZGNsb3VkLmNvbS91c2Vycy9zb3VuZGNsb3VkOnVzZXJzOjEwOTk2NzA5MDUvc291bmRzLnJzcw?sa=X&ved=0CAIQ4aUDahcKEwigxO3Eweb2AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQEQ Магазин "Дилетант": https://diletant.shop/

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