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00:00:00
this news is funded by viewers like you00:00:03
please support our work at00:00:04
democracynow.org00:00:06
this is democracy Now democracynow.org00:00:10
the Warren peace report I'm Amy Goodman00:00:12
with Juan Gonzalez we end Today's Show00:00:14
looking at how Israel's 47-day00:00:16
bombardment has left Gaza in Ruins00:00:19
satellite images show the Israeli00:00:21
attacks have left about half of all00:00:24
buildings in Northern Gaza damaged or00:00:26
destroyed since October 7th overall00:00:29
research say at least 56,000 buildings00:00:32
in Gaza have been damaged we're joined00:00:35
Now by two researchers who uh lead the00:00:38
decentralized damage mapping group a00:00:40
network of satellite image scientists00:00:42
using remote sensing to analyze and map00:00:44
the damage and destruction in the Gaza00:00:46
Strip Corey Sher is a doctoral00:00:48
researcher at cuni the cuni Graduate00:00:51
Center here in New York00:00:54
and uh Jamon Vanden Hook is an associate00:00:57
professor of geography at Oregon State00:01:00
University uh the lead of the conflict00:01:03
ecology group uh Jamon let's begin with00:01:06
you explain what you found and these00:01:09
charts these um images that you have of00:01:12
Gaza where it stands today where it00:01:14
stood a month00:01:16
ago yeah thank you Amy for the for the00:01:19
invitation to speak with you today um00:01:21
we've been charting damage using00:01:23
satellite radar technology since the00:01:25
start of the war across the entire Gaza00:01:28
Strip every 5 to 6 days so we update our00:01:30
damage Maps we share them with00:01:32
journalists and humanitarian actors00:01:34
every five or six days and we track what00:01:37
we identify as likely damage um across00:01:40
the Gaza Strip what we've seen is uh a00:01:44
really steady and fast expansion of00:01:48
damage across especially Northern Gaza00:01:51
as you mentioned North Gaza Governor it00:01:54
and Gaza Governor it just last week00:01:56
leading up to Saturday were approaching00:01:59
50% of buildings seeing likely damage00:02:02
now there's still much less damage in uh00:02:05
Southern Gaza Rafa for example is maybe00:02:08
somewhere between 5 and 8% but as your00:02:11
earlier guests were saying we're00:02:12
expecting that to increase uh as the war00:02:16
continues and have you ever seen this00:02:18
scale of damage and destruction at such00:02:21
a rapid Pace uh uh in any conflict in00:02:24
other parts of the00:02:26
world it's difficult to say we we00:02:28
haven't yet use the same approach to00:02:31
measure say the the rate of damage in00:02:33
across Ukrainian cities or Syrian cities00:02:36
or yeni cities but00:02:38
um I think we've all been surprised at00:02:42
the speed of this um and part of that is00:02:45
just how compact Gaza is if you look at00:02:48
the the rate of uh progress of damage on00:02:50
our Maps it's just filling up the map of00:02:53
Gaza especially in the north and and00:02:55
that that's been consistently surprising00:02:57
to00:02:58
us00:03:01
I'd like to bring Corey Sher into the00:03:03
conversation Corey H how does open00:03:05
access to these satellite images help00:03:08
understand and and compare the impact of00:03:12
conflict thanks uh thanks Juan for the00:03:15
question open data helps us to maintain00:03:17
a consistent delivery of damage00:03:21
assessments whereas it's been a big00:03:23
issue um for journalists and00:03:25
humanitarian organizations acquiring00:03:27
very high resolution satellite data from00:03:29
private companies we don't face those00:03:31
issues because our work focuses on00:03:33
leveraging science and open data to make00:03:36
sure that we can um provide a00:03:39
consistency and quality of this type of00:03:43
assessment across the duration of for00:03:46
example what's going on in Gaza open00:03:48
data is a Cornerstone of the work that00:03:51
we do because it helps us bring00:03:54
transparency to this in a way that can't00:03:56
be00:03:58
interrupted I wanted to ask you um about00:04:03
how rare your work is which may surprise00:04:06
some people um not reliant on Commercial00:04:10
imagery semaphor recently reported00:04:13
earlier this month that key providers of00:04:16
Satellite photographs to news00:04:18
organizations and other researchers have00:04:20
begun to restrict imagery of Gaza after00:04:24
a New York Times report on Israeli tank00:04:26
positions based on the images can you00:04:29
talk about this um in the early days of00:04:32
Russia's invasion of Ukraine commercial00:04:35
satellite companies provided some of the00:04:36
most compelling images and insights uh00:04:40
into how the conflict was developing on00:04:43
the ground um and of course this uh has00:04:48
changed after Israel's attacks and00:04:50
invasion of Gaza00:04:53
Cory thanks Amy well I can't really00:04:56
comment on the politics or the policy of00:05:00
a specific company all I can say is that00:05:03
leveraging open data that we use can00:05:07
guarantee that regardless of um what's00:05:11
happening in the private sector open00:05:12
Earth observation has the potential to00:05:15
at least give some type of insight into00:05:18
the impacts of conflict um happening on00:05:21
the ground00:05:23
so I think that's all we can really say00:05:27
to and and and could you talk a little00:05:30
bit more about what the difference is00:05:31
between commercial images and the the00:05:34
ones that you00:05:36
use yeah thanks Juan so what we're doing00:05:39
is a scientific analysis of satellite00:05:41
radar data so I want uh you to imagine a00:05:43
camera flash uh that you want to take a00:05:46
picture of something at at night time00:05:47
the camera flash leaves the camera goes00:05:50
through space bounces off the surfaces00:05:52
say you want to take a photo of me so00:05:53
the camera flash goes off my face and00:05:55
then illuminates my face goes back to00:05:57
the sensor and then you have recorded an00:05:59
image so now we're going 700 km in00:06:02
altitude there's satellite radar similar00:06:04
to a camera flash a burst of microwaves00:06:07
radar waves go down to the Earth they00:06:10
illuminate a region and then the Echoes00:06:12
of these waves scatter back to the00:06:14
sensor and we can make an image the the00:06:17
sensors make an image regardless of day00:06:19
or night or cloud cover conditions so00:06:21
this adds to the level of consistency00:06:23
where we can image a region every00:06:25
revisit of the satellite overpass00:06:28
usually we have a good00:06:31
acquisition um go ahead yeah thank you00:06:35
uh well what we're doing is listening00:06:36
for very small changes in these Echoes00:06:39
so if you imagine walking into a room00:06:40
where there's no furniture you listen to00:06:43
the sound of your your voice echoing00:06:44
throughout the room remember that Echo00:06:47
go back later after installing a carpet00:06:49
or a bookshelf and you can hear a slight00:06:50
change scientifically our algorithms are00:06:53
looking for very small variations and00:06:55
the radar Echoes that bounce off the00:06:58
Earth's surface and go back to the the00:06:59
satellite to map indicators of damage so00:07:02
this is very much different than a00:07:04
picture right we're not looking at00:07:05
pictures we're we're running satellite00:07:08
radar data through scientific algorithms00:07:10
we've spent years developing ultimately00:07:12
to resolve these signals of00:07:14
damage Jamon Vanden hook if you can00:07:18
explain um how open access to these00:07:22
satellite images helps you understand00:07:25
and compare conflicts like what you see00:07:28
in God and how are your images different00:07:31
from commercial imagery and how you get00:07:34
it and comparing Gaza for example to00:07:37
maral in00:07:39
Ukraine sure as Corey was saying we're00:07:42
sensitive to different kinds of things00:07:44
than than one could see if you looked at00:07:46
basically a bird's eye view of of Gaza00:07:50
we are sensitive to lateral damage um so00:07:54
damage to the walls the sides of of00:07:56
buildings structures that you can't00:07:59
can't see if you just look top down um00:08:02
that's a that's a key difference just00:08:04
between Optical overhead imagery and00:08:07
side looking radar imagery that's a bit00:08:09
technical but but that's an important00:08:10
difference when we have ground Invasion00:08:12
not everything is aerial bombardment not00:08:14
everything has a roof being destroyed um00:08:17
the other aspect that that Cory was00:08:19
touching on as well is and you mentioned00:08:21
with the semaphor article are those00:08:24
restrictions uh where commercial00:08:26
providers um over many years of develop00:08:29
relationships with humanitarian actors00:08:31
there's become a dependency on using00:08:33
commercial imagery in the humanitarian00:08:35
space as well as in in journalism um to00:08:39
monitor conflict effects on communities00:08:42
Landscapes uh Farms forests that's00:08:45
developed a kind of relationship with00:08:47
these commercial providers such that00:08:49
that's that's basically the literacy is00:08:51
using those kind of very high resolution00:08:53
images the kind you might see at say a a00:08:55
Google base map or an apple uh uh base00:08:58
map and Apple Maps00:09:00
very clear uh High detail you can make00:09:03
out features however those images are uh00:09:07
very usually very small scale they're00:09:09
they're narrow strips of land they're00:09:11
acquired in a sort of ad hoc and00:09:13
sometimes inconsistent manner uh if00:09:15
there's cloud cover you can't see00:09:17
through the clouds working over a00:09:20
country as large as Ukraine for example00:09:22
it's incredibly difficult to get wall00:09:24
toall uh the the entirety of Ukraine00:09:27
covered with commercial imagery in that00:09:29
way not just because of the size of00:09:31
Ukraine but because of all the00:09:33
atmospheric and weather effects that00:09:34
happen that obscure your view uh radar00:09:37
doesn't have those kind of limitations00:09:38
and working with civilian spacecrafts00:09:40
we're working with the European Space00:09:42
Agency Cernic's program Sentinel 100:09:45
satellite which is an amazing uh00:09:47
satellite that's been in operations for00:09:49
about eight years now we don't have00:09:52
those restrictions so we can um in a in00:09:54
a sense just as easily detect uh00:09:57
conditions damage00:09:59
whether it's cloudy whether it's day or00:10:02
night it doesn't matter to us we don't00:10:03
need visible light to do this um and we00:10:06
can also because we have open access to00:10:08
it and everyone does you and Juan can go00:10:10
right now to Sentinel Hub and down your00:10:13
your own satellite images and do this um00:10:16
anyone has access to this so there's a00:10:18
tremendous opportunity for00:10:19
democratization and transparency of the00:10:21
methods we aren't we aren't hiding00:10:24
behind any sort of commercial barrier um00:10:27
or some uh bespoke algorithm where the00:10:29
inner workings are unclear we're we're00:10:31
trying to be incredibly transparent and00:10:33
be very direct with the limitations of00:10:35
what this approach offers um and and00:10:38
sharing this with with uh actors00:10:41
journalists humanitarian organizations00:10:43
who can do other things with it than we00:10:44
can we we can map likely damage we can00:10:47
make estimates of damage structures we00:10:49
cannot do all these other amazing things00:10:51
that so many people are working on um on00:10:53
the ground as well as through through uh00:10:56
sort of remote journalism practices so00:10:58
it's it's it's become a really um a00:11:01
really much very much a team effort um00:11:04
where where yes we're doing this00:11:05
analysis in an open way but then what we00:11:07
generate we share and then it goes it's00:11:10
it's gone off and and U people have made00:11:12
amazing products that have really told a00:11:14
kind of a narrative that we've never00:11:15
been able to imagine really Professor00:11:17
Vanden hook have you been warned about00:11:20
what you're00:11:24
doing have you been00:11:27
warned00:11:30
I don't hear you sorry oh go ahead there00:11:33
there's nothing no we have not been00:11:34
warned there's nothing illegal uh00:11:37
there's about what we're doing we're00:11:39
accessing open imagery there's no we00:11:40
have not been communicated with anybody00:11:42
about any anything of this00:11:45
nature and and and jam I'd like to ask00:11:48
you you worked on a report with Amnesty00:11:50
International looking at the00:11:52
2014 Israeli attacks on Gaza and you00:11:56
also analyze satellite imagery back then00:11:59
how's the science evolved over the00:12:02
years it's like night and day um back00:12:06
then we were we were working with also00:12:09
open data but a combination of00:12:10
commercial imagery00:12:12
um this system that we're working with00:12:14
now didn't exist at that time um this00:12:17
radar technology that we're using today00:12:20
um we uh working with amisty00:12:23
International it was also led by00:12:25
forensic architecture um we were able to00:12:28
combine different kinds of satellite00:12:29
images to to monitor very specific00:12:32
features so we were able to see uh say00:12:34
individual trees destroyed by tanks or00:12:37
trucks um in00:12:39
Rafa um but it was very localized and it00:12:41
was it was also protective Edge was such00:12:43
a um a short conflict really very very00:12:47
brief um and so there we just looked at00:12:49
kind of before and after um that kind of00:12:52
before after approach doesn't work with00:12:54
a conflict that's now a war that's now00:12:56
gone on 47 days um we're not interested00:12:59
in the after we want to know the process00:13:01
we want to know the pattern of change as00:13:03
it's manifest on the ground um those00:13:06
those concerns weren't really there for00:13:07
such a short conflict but we also didn't00:13:09
really have the means to do it um we00:13:12
just have 10 seconds thank you every00:13:14
five days we can update this and we just00:13:15
have a much better sense of grasping the00:13:17
Dynamics of this war than than really00:13:19
any other conflict that we've looked at00:13:21
democracy Now is funded by viewers like00:13:23
you please give today at00:13:26
democracynow.orgDescription:
Support our work: https://democracynow.org/give We speak with two researchers who lead the Decentralized Damage Mapping Group, a network of scientists using remote sensing to analyze and map the damage and destruction in the Gaza Strip since Israel's attacks began on October 7. Radar technology shows that Israel's bombing campaign has left about half of all buildings in northern Gaza damaged or destroyed since October 7, with at least 56,000 buildings in Gaza damaged overall. Doctoral researcher Corey Scher explains how researchers use open data to bring consistent, transparent assessments of the rapidly expanding damage in Gaza. "We've all been surprised at the speed of this," says Jamon Van Den Hoek, lead of the Conflict Ecology lab. Transcript: https://www.democracynow.org/2023/11/22/hostages Democracy Now! is an independent global news hour that airs on over 1,500 TV and radio stations Monday through Friday. Watch our livestream at democracynow.org Mondays to Fridays 8-9 a.m. ET. Subscribe to our Daily Email Digest: https://democracynow.org/subscribe
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