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Russian
00:00:02
[music]00:00:17
Good evening, dear friends, this is an00:00:20
inhalation and exhalation. The first program this year00:00:22
after many broadcasts on the eve of00:00:26
this New Year, by the way, today is the old00:00:28
New Year, I congratulate you on the00:00:31
Khodorkovsky Life channel, subscribe to it00:00:33
and like this broadcast, this is00:00:36
important for promoting the video, share00:00:38
links to this video on your00:00:42
social networks, of course, participate in00:00:44
the comments about everything that00:00:47
will be discussed My name is Stanislav Kryuchkov00:00:49
and Our guest today is a historian and sociologist00:00:53
whom the Russian Ministry of Justice considers a00:00:56
foreign00:00:58
risk agent Gorletsky greetings00:01:01
[music]00:01:06
Hello Good to see you As00:01:11
you know, there are several news stories at the00:01:14
start, I would like to ask you to00:01:17
comment and fortunately00:01:20
today’s news feed is conducive to this.00:01:23
In particular,00:01:24
my day began with the fact that I00:01:26
saw a publication on a merchant about the00:01:28
preparations for the Kremlin’s launched00:01:32
election campaign in anticipation of the00:01:35
2024 elections. On the one hand the tightly00:01:40
gripped00:01:42
authoritarian system of state00:01:44
power in the country, on the other hand, elections of00:01:47
choice after zeroing, this is the00:01:50
advisability of holding them in the00:01:53
current conditions. And why is this kind of00:01:56
preparation needed if everything can be done00:01:58
with the wave of a magic wand? We can even00:02:01
guess in whose hands this wand00:02:03
is located.00:02:04
Well, let's start with the fact that Elections are a00:02:08
procedural moment, it’s just necessary to somehow00:02:11
re-arrange the extension of the deadline, that is, of00:02:13
course, you can just say but I’m still00:02:15
staying, I’m not tired, I’m still staying, I’ll00:02:19
never get tired, but still,00:02:21
you know, any bureaucracy, any00:02:24
state bureaucracy, any00:02:26
structure still needs some00:02:29
procedural formal uh stages00:02:32
so to speak Well and so on therefore Well we00:02:35
need to somehow re-register the00:02:37
continuation of00:02:40
the reign of the same well-00:02:42
known person and00:02:44
in reality there will be a different past but I mean the00:02:46
purely bureaucratic part of the matter it is00:02:48
absolutely obvious, that is, since how many00:02:51
years do you need to re-register? Well, I00:02:54
don’t know how you00:02:55
re-register, let’s say a contract for the00:02:57
Internet or something else, but it’s also00:03:00
necessary to re-register presidential terms,00:03:01
I don’t see any problems,00:03:04
uh,00:03:06
another question is that any Elections anyway00:03:10
This is also money that00:03:11
someone can earn somewhere, and it’s clear that00:03:14
people here won’t miss theirs. As they say,00:03:17
you need to understand that these are also budgets, and00:03:20
it’s especially great to receive a00:03:22
budget when the result is known in advance,00:03:24
you understand, this is what we’re starting to00:03:27
talk about what and why even00:03:30
allocate that money and run all these companies00:03:33
if the result is00:03:34
predetermined in advance, even00:03:37
how many voted How and where but what00:03:41
if Look at the same situation from the00:03:43
point of view of people who receive00:03:44
money but vice versa Agree that this is00:03:47
very cool and great because that00:03:49
in general nothing depends on you And the money00:03:51
will give you everything And the less it depends on you,00:03:53
the more money they will give you In00:03:54
my opinion, it’s very cool I think that people are00:03:57
already fighting for these budgets in the00:03:59
sports world, such meetings are called00:04:03
negotiated But in addition to the bureaucratic00:04:06
procedural there is00:04:08
still some kind of mental component here.00:04:11
Well, flirting with your audience or the00:04:14
audience is so structured that this is a00:04:17
purely peripheral task and if it00:04:21
exists, then somewhere in the audience00:04:23
on stage the00:04:25
question is what is considered an audience00:04:27
because00:04:30
on the one hand there is an audience these are00:04:33
TV viewers, I approached the00:04:35
TV witnesses, by the way, the idea00:04:37
that there is supposedly some kind of Epic war going on00:04:39
between the TV and the refrigerator,00:04:40
this is absolutely nonsense, this is some kind of cliche00:04:44
from the 90s because, relatively00:04:47
speaking, there are people refrigerators, there are people00:04:49
televisions, and it is indicative that00:04:52
nowhere else has anything to do with politics.00:04:53
Therefore, some people just look00:04:57
into the refrigerator and they most likely do not00:04:59
watch TV; others watch00:05:01
TV. Of course, they may be00:05:03
looking into the refrigerator, but they still00:05:04
understand why there is nothing there00:05:06
because, again, there is no connection, well and In00:05:09
addition, many, by the way, are not at all00:05:11
empty, but the problem is something else, you understand.00:05:14
And what is considered the audience for the sake of which all00:05:17
this is being done? In fact,00:05:20
there are several, in general, a very large00:05:23
audience, because00:05:25
in fact, today the authorities have00:05:27
several groups even00:05:29
relatively speaking, not support, but groups with00:05:32
which the authorities are trying00:05:33
to interact in society, firstly,00:05:35
this is the same mass of very elderly00:05:38
people, and not even pensioners at all.00:05:40
And this group, relatively speaking, is 70 plus Yes, I00:05:44
said maybe even 75 plus, so to speak, that’s the00:05:47
very thing that is possible call it00:05:50
a community00:05:52
that suffers from the mistakes of survivors. That is,00:05:55
if you survived, then you think that00:05:57
everything is fine with you, but everything is fine, but those who00:06:00
thought differently simply did not live to see00:06:02
this age, more happiness, and00:06:05
by the way, here I want to say00:06:07
[music]00:06:08
my colleague Ekaterina Shulman00:06:10
made a very serious mistake. Well, how about this, the00:06:13
nightingales also pushed for this,00:06:16
that they are introducing some kind of category 5500:06:18
plus in Russian society there is no such00:06:20
category, a single category 55 plus Well,00:06:23
just imagine the people whom00:06:25
it formed, let’s say there Thaw00:06:27
Vector formed let’s say00:06:28
the eighties00:06:29
Here00:06:31
But nevertheless, here is some category of00:06:33
very old people who depend00:06:35
on televisions who, naturally, by00:06:36
the way, will come to vote on crutches00:06:38
and will definitely sincerely00:06:40
vote for Putin But there are few of them And most00:06:42
importantly, nothing really depends on some00:06:44
And there are, well, a huge mass Just00:06:47
elementary transformists who will00:06:49
vote for any government. What kind of00:06:51
state exists and tomorrow there will be00:06:54
liberals in power, but in fact00:06:56
liberals tomorrow will be in power, fascists00:06:59
will be socialists, socialists will vote,00:07:01
I don’t know, aliens will come,00:07:03
there will be aliens because this is the second00:07:07
group, which is the most reliable base for00:07:11
Putin and his colleagues, but pay attention to00:07:13
the fact that in general for this group there is no00:07:16
need for any propaganda because00:07:18
they just need to know that these are the people who are00:07:19
in power, yes, this is the team now in00:07:22
power, they are different, well, the third most00:07:25
interesting category is those00:07:27
sincere I would even said the Fierce00:07:30
patriots who somehow became very animated00:07:32
and perked up in connection with the start of00:07:34
hostilities, first special operations in00:07:36
Ukraine, who are now in a00:07:39
state of severe frustration00:07:41
in very upset feelings, and00:07:44
further it will only get worse and which, in00:07:47
general, are considered in many ways much more00:07:50
dangerous even for power than the opening of a00:07:53
positioner because these people are00:07:55
set up for some radical00:07:57
actions of those who want it, so00:08:05
that everything here will change00:08:09
radically in the country and that, in00:08:13
general, all these military00:08:14
events will somehow lead to renewal and00:08:17
even prosperity, of course, nothing00:08:19
like that is happening now they00:08:21
can turn around in a completely unexpected way.00:08:24
These people00:08:25
remember there was a conversation about handing over some00:08:28
party of military correspondents and so on, then00:08:30
it seems like they returned something to this topic, it’s also00:08:33
unknown how it will all end, that00:08:35
is, these three groups, in general, they don’t00:08:37
fit together very well between themselves if the00:08:39
first two are somehow Well, simply00:08:42
manageable, but it’s not very important what00:08:44
exactly the government will do. Well, as00:08:46
for the third group, that is,00:08:48
Small problems and00:08:50
In general, it can create a problem for the00:08:52
government in turn.00:08:54
But these open oppositionists of the left00:08:58
or liberal persuasion, which today is00:09:00
outside the system, but by and large they are00:09:04
not included in the classification you propose in00:09:07
any way. Yes, they simply do not00:09:10
have the resources to influence the00:09:12
development of events. Today we were00:09:15
talking about those who00:09:18
support the government;00:09:20
in fact, again, there is a00:09:23
large illusion, you understand, again,00:09:24
I’m telling it like00:09:25
it is. Big people, that the question of00:09:27
public opinion gives us a picture of00:09:29
public opinion. It’s not true that the00:09:31
question of public opinion gives us00:09:33
an idea of the opinions of those people00:09:37
who answer questions. That people in00:09:39
Russia don’t answer any questions, and00:09:41
here it was there’s even a big discussion about this.00:09:43
What do these people represent?00:09:45
They don’t answer the question with a00:09:50
position that’s convenient for positionists, what in00:09:52
fact, in fact, in fact, these people00:09:54
support us, in fact, they’re all00:09:56
against you, you’re just scared, so they don’t00:09:58
answer like that. I think that00:10:00
they don’t answer the question differently; public00:10:03
opinion also doesn’t have any opinion.00:10:05
You see, we tried to figure it out and00:10:08
found out a very funny thing: a huge00:10:10
mass of people either don’t watch00:10:12
political programs on TV at all or00:10:14
ignore them and just immediately00:10:17
forget what was there. so if00:10:20
it turns out that these people don’t watch00:10:21
political channels, not about the authorities, not the00:10:24
opposition, neither on TV nor on the00:10:26
Internet. And what they don’t watch. They watch00:10:28
about hunting and fishing. They watch fashion. They00:10:32
watch about how to fix, uh,00:10:35
renovate an apartment,00:10:37
well, in the end, what detectives,00:10:41
car shows,00:10:43
and so on, and so on,00:10:45
and in terms of information, in00:10:49
fact, their whole life is very busy, but it’s00:10:51
just that Life intersects very little with00:10:54
the life that you say, or I, or00:10:56
many of our other friends live.00:10:58
Therefore, you just need to understand that00:11:02
Russian Well, 80 percent of society is00:11:05
absolutely political, the00:11:07
total political nature of politics is not only00:11:09
not of interest to it, it simply does not00:11:11
exist for these people, and there is no connection between00:11:15
political events and their own00:11:17
existence in their world, and this is00:11:21
understandable. Because people, on the one hand,00:11:23
in general, are very loaded with00:11:26
real problems everyday problems at00:11:28
work in the family00:11:30
Well, in such a Small society it is called on the00:11:34
other hand. They understand them, they have been convinced00:11:36
over many years that nothing depends on you anyway, you can’t00:11:41
do anything anyway, nothing changes And in00:11:44
general it’s not your business if you quarrel, it00:11:47
will only it’s bad, you already have00:11:49
enough problems and this is actually the00:11:51
bulk of Russians Well, then there are00:11:55
actually positionists of either the left or the00:11:59
liberal persuasion. In my opinion,00:12:02
now society has begun to move to the left in the00:12:04
political sense But00:12:07
in this situation specifically It’s not so00:12:09
important, what’s important is that these are people really00:12:12
very politicized, very00:12:14
motivated for the most part, but at00:12:18
the moment, of course, very00:12:19
little depends on them, another question is what will happen00:12:21
next. That is, if the situation unexpectedly00:12:23
gets out of control, then these00:12:25
motivated people can come up with some of their own00:12:28
ideas and some to offer their answers to00:12:30
that unmotivated, non-00:12:34
political mass who00:12:38
may find themselves involved in politics,00:12:41
becomes against their will, I00:12:43
simply remind you that there is a very famous00:12:45
quote from Lenin that constantly00:12:47
repeats the revolutionary situation,00:12:49
they forget the very words that the masses are00:12:54
not just activated in a revolutionary00:12:56
situation, they they are forced to become more active, they are being00:12:59
dragged into politics by the ruling00:13:01
elites themselves by their crisis. This is also a completely00:13:03
possible situation, this could happen,00:13:05
but so far this has not happened, while we see this00:13:08
apathetic political mass, and I00:13:10
repeat, these are not people whom we should00:13:12
know or criticize, these are people who, in00:13:15
general, have also your truth, so to speak,00:13:18
in this situation Because you just need to00:13:20
understand that yes, well, you need to survive, this is a00:13:23
family, this works, this is a lot of problems00:13:26
that are solved every day, and here you00:13:29
understand me something about politics,00:13:30
it’s all very logical, but there is00:13:33
another option e formulation of this00:13:36
question00:13:38
If you are not interested in those who are not interested in00:13:41
politics, this does not mean that politics is not00:13:43
interested in you at this moment, it is00:13:46
of course interested, you mentioned a00:13:49
group of conformist-minded people who00:13:52
would vote for any government that00:13:55
currently has the potential to00:13:57
exercise itself Is00:14:00
n’t today, economically,00:14:03
mentally, aesthetically, even in00:14:07
some sense, the position of conformism for00:14:10
this human mass or for its00:14:14
conformist part becoming00:14:16
unacceptable because all these00:14:19
prominences are00:14:21
unacceptable aesthetics,00:14:23
uncomfortable In the economic sense of00:14:24
the situation, they come into your life, you00:14:27
begin to feel them, maybe without even00:14:29
realizing it, but somewhere in the background there is00:14:32
progress in this direction or an00:14:34
approach to this kind of situation00:14:35
is happening, or it is still very00:14:38
far away.00:14:42
In my opinion, it’s just the conformist who cannot be00:14:44
defeated. Here is an average person who is apolitical,00:14:48
who doesn’t think about it at all, he00:14:51
really can to become interested in00:14:53
politics is the moment when you understand that00:14:55
politics has become too much involved in his00:14:57
life,00:14:58
yes, we know the classic formula that00:15:01
politics will be interested in you, but the question is00:15:03
how she is interested in you, that’s when00:15:06
politics interferes with your life and destructively00:15:08
begins to affect the specific mechanisms of00:15:11
your survival. Reproduction of your00:15:13
everyday life, reproduction of your family.00:15:15
reproduction of your work and so on, then00:15:18
at some point the00:15:21
average person in general still gets fed up with him,00:15:23
he turns into Sometimes he just turns into a fighter,00:15:25
maybe even into an ideological fighter, but he didn’t00:15:29
win to conform because00:15:31
the transformist just has to understand who00:15:33
will win, that’s when he doesn’t understand may be00:15:36
mistaken in00:15:39
your review of the probably famous00:15:42
playwright, the author of the Intercession Gate and the00:15:44
Warsaw Melody, there is also a00:15:45
wonderful play of Roman comedy00:15:48
that was banned00:15:51
from the stage with the repertoire in Soviet00:15:54
times, then somehow it did00:15:56
n’t go very well in post-Soviet times and it’s00:15:59
very well analyzed there. As in00:16:02
surrounded by the emperor there is one00:16:04
principled poet who is always00:16:08
the truth of the womb What is called and another00:16:11
service speaking the name who always00:16:16
tries to be convenient for the authorities and00:16:21
when00:16:23
a coup d'etat occurs, then Serbia naturally00:16:25
gives the00:16:28
emperor Gritian and00:16:31
Domitian, on the contrary, runs and hides at Dion00:16:34
and then the contour of the coup of the00:16:37
emperor occurs returns and, to the surprise of00:16:39
everyone, brings him closer to his00:16:42
body again, not so much the sofa as the cervel00:16:45
again, and says Well, how did he00:16:49
betray him, says no no, he was guided00:16:53
by the authorities, he was simply mistaken, he was simply00:16:55
mistaken because he accidentally mistook00:16:57
that other applicant for the authorities,00:17:00
then he figured it out everything was fine00:17:02
You understand that these people are invincible,00:17:04
they can make a mistake, at best00:17:06
a little mistake, but still they have an00:17:09
instinct. By the way, better than you and me,00:17:11
they will still figure it out and will be everyone00:17:14
who wins, but I watch such people with00:17:16
great interest and for me this is it’s just00:17:19
that this weather vane shows you00:17:22
the direction of the wind, you can mock the00:17:24
leader, this is a very valuable tool, it00:17:26
shows us where the wind is blowing in00:17:28
them now. We need to look at them to navigate00:17:30
and I’m not saying that you should follow them in any00:17:32
case, you need to go your own way, but when00:17:35
you are sailing somewhere better to know what kind of00:17:37
winds to think now There is such00:17:39
material for making a weather vane, this is00:17:41
mobilization and conversations are ongoing00:17:45
in a new section in a new key,00:17:49
like hidden mobilization at the cork, by the way,00:17:52
friends, Subscribe, go to the portal00:17:54
and on YouTube Boriska Golitsky you you write00:17:57
by announcing partial mobilization in Russia,00:17:59
Putin has achieved at least one00:18:01
society has realized what is actually00:18:04
happening in Ukraine, but00:18:06
the steps that have followed since September and the00:18:10
current conversations Yes, the parameters have expanded, there is00:18:13
no mobilization, but already calls for00:18:16
at least temporary ones, they worsen the00:18:21
population’s understanding of what society00:18:24
has gone along this path of further00:18:26
awareness or But in that Awareness of the00:18:29
September period stopped even00:18:32
rolled back a little00:18:35
Apparently it rolled back a little,00:18:37
you know, I’ll say right away after all In00:18:39
this case, I act as a sociologist Yes, I00:18:41
have my own political position and00:18:43
so on, but we started the conversation is already00:18:45
such a professional00:18:46
sociological one, and I’ll tell you that00:18:49
I just haven’t seen any serious00:18:51
research data that would somehow show00:18:54
what happened after September. Well,00:18:57
maybe for some reason, just no one00:18:58
dares to publish if someone conducted00:19:00
such research but one way or another,00:19:02
that’s why I’m talking about my feelings, yes. And00:19:06
for me this is very important because00:19:09
what I said before I can00:19:10
confirm with these studies, that’s what00:19:12
I’m saying now. These are rather my00:19:14
feelings and it nevertheless seems00:19:16
quite logical to me because many00:19:19
repeat that Yes, there was anxiety,00:19:23
anxiety jumped sharply. That’s what the00:19:24
measurements showed, anxiety just00:19:28
soared up and then began to quietly00:19:32
go down, that is, again,00:19:36
for the person we studied, so a00:19:40
normal, correct Russian00:19:41
person who is not politicized, he00:19:44
might have the feeling that, well, damn Well, it00:19:47
somehow got better a little and he00:19:51
may even be trying to return to00:19:53
his previous life as his shell, but00:19:56
the trouble is that some people with a00:19:58
sledgehammer are now coming to smash the00:19:59
shell to pieces because00:20:01
he was using a sledgehammer for00:20:03
this And so I think that they will get him, they will00:20:08
get him, and by the way, they will then00:20:09
regret very much that they00:20:11
got him, because when I get him,00:20:13
too, finally, when he finally comes out of the00:20:15
shell, you will see a lot of00:20:17
interesting things, you will see that this is the00:20:19
same man in the street who was absolutely00:20:21
harmless and00:20:23
he is absolutely inactive, he can turn into a very00:20:26
active, even somewhat00:20:27
aggressive opponent of the authorities, if you00:20:30
get him seriously, you know, it feels like00:20:32
they are testing the boundaries00:20:33
of possibility00:20:35
or the boundaries of risky, yes, that is, it seems to00:20:37
have worked out, but Let’s00:20:39
push a little more And this is very dangerous a00:20:42
game to my taste. Can I bring this conversation a little from the00:20:45
professional side to the human00:20:47
personal level? Now you are00:20:49
answering as a sociologist. And as a00:20:51
person, yes. You emotionally00:20:55
now still00:20:57
perceive what is happening as an00:20:59
Adventure; in any case, this is the kind of00:21:01
answer I heard in your interview Sobchak00:21:05
Or is it no longer about Adventure, we are talking about00:21:11
something that00:21:12
is perceived much more tragically00:21:15
seriously in this sense, sociology as a00:21:17
mission as a mission that is impossible00:21:20
for you now, this is so this kind of00:21:23
platform is00:21:26
still still alive Sociology, as00:21:32
you know, I teach at the Moscow Higher00:21:34
School of Social Economic Sciences,00:21:35
the school is alive Despite the fact that we had,00:21:37
as you know, quite big00:21:38
troubles, how much this is not a00:21:40
state university and in general everything is00:21:43
quite dramatic. And well, people conduct00:21:46
research, it’s also not by chance that I00:21:49
’m quoting all this00:21:51
Well, actually, I’m the same00:21:53
Hmm, I don’t do applied research Yes, I00:21:56
rely on other people’s work, which means People00:21:59
are working, that is, uh The academic scientific00:22:02
mission is alive, another question is the political00:22:04
mission Yes, but because of course I don’t00:22:07
see myself simply as an00:22:08
academic scientist. I still00:22:11
wouldn’t run the channel otherwise. rapor and so on00:22:13
That is, I still see a00:22:15
definite political mission00:22:17
because I’m doing this too Yes, it’s difficult, but00:22:21
how else can we treat this, that is,00:22:24
say Adventures, but how can you00:22:28
think that everything is horror, horror, horror, yes, but00:22:30
you will live in horror But this is bad Even00:22:32
for health it’s bad residents are in a state00:22:34
of horror if you look at what’s00:22:36
happening around them as but not necessarily00:22:38
Adventure Well, just something interesting and00:22:40
instructive that happens00:22:42
to you, too, but participant observation, again,00:22:45
let’s return to the sociological term Well00:22:47
then, life it becomes somehow more00:22:49
meaningful and more pleasant, even if there are00:22:52
a lot of unpleasant moments happening to00:22:55
you,00:22:56
I can ask you to answer the question00:22:58
as a politician or as a person00:23:00
included in the political environment. How do00:23:04
you answer the question about the root of everything that00:23:07
is happening now and the military sense and00:23:12
in a political sense, because here I am00:23:15
writing my Layer of understanding Yes, I00:23:19
would briefly like to relate the feeling Since00:23:22
Soon We have reached this00:23:24
such comparison of sensations, it’s like00:23:26
empty talk in rhetoric, the absence of00:23:30
any real basis for00:23:33
this entire complex of actions of criminal00:23:36
military men of a different kind Yes, it has grown the00:23:41
reality that now dominates the00:23:43
reality that is reflected in deprivation00:23:46
for hundreds of thousands of people for millions of00:23:49
people, how on a zero basis00:23:53
something that is not zero grows.00:23:56
Well, why on a zero basis,00:24:00
in general, everything that happens is00:24:01
very predictable and I don’t want to say that00:24:04
let’s say I foresaw everything, predicted it,00:24:07
but just look at what00:24:09
many other authors wrote, the00:24:12
same00:24:15
Alexander Buzgalin, for example00:24:18
Saltan Sarasov, is also a well-known economist,00:24:21
but you understand, this is still a certain00:24:24
type of this very notorious00:24:26
peripheral raw material capitalism00:24:28
that developed in Russia back in the00:24:31
nineties, in this sense I00:24:33
categorically disagree with by the00:24:34
contrast between the 90s and already the Putin00:24:37
years, which00:24:39
both in the liberal public and in00:24:42
security circles are very fond of00:24:45
the reproducer, not so Russia has become a00:24:49
peripheral capitalist country with a00:24:52
raw materials orientation, this is generally such,00:24:56
well, by and large, not even00:24:57
a Latin American rather an African00:24:59
path of development, another thing is that we we are following the00:25:03
path00:25:04
like someone else. By the way, economists of the00:25:07
90s said along the path of primitivization of the00:25:10
economy, and it is very interesting how00:25:12
someone from the market people said then00:25:15
that well,00:25:16
yes, we are going to the market, but we will have to pay the00:25:20
price for the market reorientation of the00:25:22
economy, this is the price there will be a primitivization00:25:25
of the economy, but a primitivization of the economy00:25:29
while motivating society, while mitivizing the00:25:31
relatively developed, yet00:25:33
quite advanced Soviet00:25:35
society, which, as we well00:25:37
understand, had a lot of very unattractive00:25:40
features, but nevertheless was developed by an00:25:42
advanced society for its time,00:25:43
this privatization led, among other things, to00:25:46
privitization policies towards the privatization of00:25:48
people who, through this policy, are engaged in the00:25:51
privatization of management methods, and so00:25:54
on and so on But that was half00:25:56
the trouble. And then the following happens, what00:25:58
happens is that Russia, despite all00:26:02
the talk, fits very well into the00:26:05
global market, has found its niche, this is the00:26:08
peripheral raw material supply niche00:26:11
oil, gas, coal, the fatty part, and so00:26:15
on All this was cool because,00:26:18
well, not all the dollars00:26:20
went, the money went, Well, we’re getting worse and00:26:23
worse at doing something complicated. But here’s00:26:25
the money, here it is, that is, we00:26:28
we really saw a sharp increase in social spending00:26:30
during the Putin years, and by the way, this00:26:33
reflects certain phases of this00:26:35
very00:26:36
formation of what is called Russian00:26:39
capitalism, that is, the nineties, it is00:26:40
necessary to divide everything that is to divide the00:26:43
Soviet property to seize and00:26:45
distribute Well, naturally, there will be a fight00:26:47
along the way, the property will be divided Well,00:26:50
and then Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin comes in 200000:26:52
Yes, why? Because00:26:54
really the change from Yeltsin’s paradigm00:26:57
to Putin’s is meaningful. Let’s now00:26:59
consolidate, stabilize, everything will settle down,00:27:04
it will all be reproduced more or less normally,00:27:07
everything will work, at00:27:09
the very least. There will be no more fights for everyone; we will00:27:13
reconcile the oligarchs, and so on and even00:27:16
the people will get something,00:27:18
please, social incomes are already growing,00:27:20
social expenses are growing, excuse me, from00:27:23
budget revenues, and so on. That is,00:27:25
by the way, the growth of social expenses was00:27:27
really very noticeable, the first00:27:28
Putin style, well, everything would be fine, but00:27:32
then it turns out that you are a00:27:33
very specialist well,00:27:35
such a good story seemed to you and00:27:40
historians are changing00:27:44
which you fit into the nineties,00:27:48
the world has significantly exhausted its00:27:50
development potential by 2010 and it is stalling, the00:27:54
world economy is starting to stall and00:27:57
the better you fit into the old scheme, the00:27:59
less ready you are for changes the entire00:28:01
world system is in a fairly00:28:03
stable state now and all these00:28:06
conflicts between the United States and China between00:28:08
Russia and Ukraine00:28:09
within the European Union, all these stories with00:28:12
Brexit, it’s not happening out of nowhere, a00:28:14
general global crisis is developing00:28:16
and it’s clear that this is a rigid00:28:19
authoritarian structure that has developed00:28:21
in Russia and it’s a source of raw materials the economy, in00:28:24
principle, is not capable of not being ready to00:28:27
adapt normally effectively to a changing00:28:29
situation; in fact, even the developed Western economies do not adapt to it00:28:30
very well,00:28:32
but there at00:28:34
least it does not take on such a00:28:35
catastrophic character. But here it00:28:38
takes on the character of a catastrophe, and00:28:40
the main thing is that it turns out that they people00:28:42
who have managed this economy for 20 years,00:28:44
they are, in principle, unable to00:28:46
respond to the challenges that have arisen during the00:28:49
cruise. These people, as they are famously called, both00:28:52
as a group and as individuals, are not able to00:28:56
adequately respond, and then what00:28:58
happens they react inadequately. But00:29:00
then we look around and understand what00:29:02
happened it takes precisely00:29:04
the master of a disaster or a00:29:07
business based on a disaster for this group,00:29:09
I am sufficiently00:29:12
able to react to what is happening00:29:14
because for the so-called Elites Everything00:29:18
probably remains quite comfortable00:29:20
inside Russia. No, I wouldn’t say00:29:23
who is doing a business based on a disaster00:29:25
on any disaster, someone then he always does00:29:27
business, you understand, yes, someone00:29:29
will sell life preservers on a00:29:31
sinking ship, but they00:29:35
lose, they lose, they lose00:29:38
millions of dollars, they lose, they lose00:29:40
their palaces, they lose access to their00:29:43
wonderful long yachts that do not00:29:45
fit into the port where they are in Malta or00:29:48
Sicily, they lose including for the00:29:52
products they sell to sales markets.00:29:57
In general, they are losing00:30:04
serious stories because in the00:30:07
end, we remember how Russian00:30:09
bosses said we want to get a00:30:10
seat at the table in the club of the00:30:14
world's coolest Elites. Yes, they were almost00:30:18
already sitting at at this table there were already00:30:27
sevens and so on00:30:30
in twenties, yes, that is, they were already accepted in this club.00:30:34
Well, if on equal terms, then almost00:30:36
as equals, and then everything went to pieces. They are,00:30:39
of course, very worried. I think they are00:30:40
very upset and feel00:30:43
uncomfortable and afraid. their future but00:30:47
they don’t have answers because they can’t00:30:50
even formulate questions yet,00:30:52
you know what kind of problem00:30:55
they would be ready to solve problems But00:31:01
they themselves are the problem or at least00:31:04
part of the problems and these are the ones and I think00:31:09
that this is In what sense00:31:13
Tell me the solution to the problem for such a00:31:16
purely speculative or even00:31:18
symbolic or something due to the development of a00:31:20
new system of categories here is the00:31:23
political reality of the Russian world. As I00:31:27
understand it, it is precisely00:31:30
that peripheral capitalism of the raw material00:31:33
component that is suffering damage00:31:35
today.00:31:36
Quite such a construction that00:31:39
turned out to be able to work. In any00:31:41
case, as such on top of the00:31:43
superimposed matrix Or Nebenzya00:31:46
speaks in the Security Council today and again00:31:50
recalls the concept of the world gendarme and here is a00:31:54
set of such00:31:55
phrases00:31:57
covering the reality we are00:32:00
talking about. It symbolically turns out to be00:32:04
functional in the sense that it00:32:06
holds back this jelly, the mass of houses00:32:09
that you mentioned at the very beginning and does this Jelly00:32:14
make it quite accessible for00:32:18
operations with it, or is this system of00:32:21
concepts which is doomed to00:32:24
crumble when emasculated? How00:32:28
long is its life possible? I would not00:32:32
say that this system of concepts is a set00:32:34
or sum of concepts, but regarding the Russian00:32:38
world and in general all this00:32:45
quasi-perialistic00:32:46
[music]00:32:47
How fashionable the discourse still speaks Yes, by the way,00:32:50
you like it aesthetically, but I don’t like it closely00:32:57
I wanted to say I did00:33:00
n’t like it for a long time now I started00:33:02
using it Unfortunately, but00:33:05
ideologically it’s good00:33:09
one of my old favorite jokes00:33:12
about psychologists who say I cured00:33:14
of his patient And what happened to him, he00:33:16
wet the bed Oh yes And that now he00:33:20
can’t no continues to wet the bed but00:33:22
now he’s proud of it00:33:24
You see, this is the same case,00:33:26
you understand that you need your00:33:30
bad situation, for example, isolation,00:33:33
your failures, your problems, to pass off as00:33:39
great achievements and start00:33:42
being proud of it Well, this is very logical, but it does00:33:46
n’t really work in practice,00:33:48
as for everything else,00:33:53
again, another buzzword is00:33:56
postmodernism. And what is postmodernism,00:33:59
which Surkov loved so much, for example, to be the00:34:02
head of the00:34:04
political block of the presidential administration00:34:08
When you grab everything you have play with00:34:11
any How it is now fashionable to speak with00:34:13
meanings with any ideas to combine them00:34:15
completely arbitrarily As you like,00:34:17
as you like and you don’t00:34:20
care at all how everything fits together,00:34:22
how much it all leaves one thing, you don’t give a damn00:34:25
about it, as long as in a00:34:27
purely utilitarian way it would be possible to00:34:30
technically connect it and again, yes,00:34:34
tactically,00:34:36
it can work for the moment,00:34:39
but it doesn’t work in the long term;00:34:42
it doesn’t allow you to build strategies; the00:34:44
fundamental problem with the00:34:47
Russian authorities and the ruling class in a00:34:51
broader sense is that it is not00:34:54
able to arrange strategies now, but00:34:56
it can, at best, come up with00:34:58
some then sets of tactical efforts for00:35:01
multi-move is also a favorite word00:35:03
for finding there cunning plans Pay00:35:05
attention, and even the word strategy is00:35:07
still not very used, they even00:35:08
call Vladimir Vladimirovich a great00:35:10
tactician, after all, they also have great strategies00:35:12
Well, we put all the words on the basis00:35:16
as soon as possible use00:35:18
apply but in general it’s still Vladimir00:35:22
Vladimirovich00:35:24
and, as you know, he has multi-move moves. And00:35:27
what does this mean, this is a set of random00:35:29
combinations, that is, Where do you go with these00:35:32
moves, where do you want to go? Where is your00:35:35
long-term perspective and this is not the case,00:35:38
I say this again in the West this is all very00:35:40
unimportant, but you see, when with Western00:35:44
resources in the center, modern00:35:47
mersystems some problems00:35:50
look quite painful, then in our country these same00:35:53
problems acquire some kind of00:35:54
extreme extreme nature and therefore,00:35:57
in my opinion, all this will not work00:36:01
about crumbling as soon as they00:36:03
practically arise questions that need to be solved00:36:06
with the help of some kind of ideology,00:36:08
you understand ideology, why it is needed, it gives00:36:12
certain guidelines when solving00:36:14
practical issues, but when, for00:36:16
example, either, as in Soviet times,00:36:18
you try to subordinate practice to ideology,00:36:20
or, on the contrary, use00:36:22
pure utilitarian ideology to cover up00:36:24
current decisions that are completely situational then00:36:26
what doesn’t work is00:36:28
that sooner or later you00:36:29
need some kind of guidelines, and00:36:32
you simply don’t have them,00:36:34
but is it possible today to have such a coherent00:36:36
and non-syncretistic ideology,00:36:40
with the understanding that yes, in the leftist key,00:36:44
to build a system in the full sense Yes, in00:36:47
the full sense sense, it is impossible that00:36:49
market mechanisms work one way or another00:36:51
and you will somehow need to interact with them00:36:54
and, in00:36:56
fact,00:36:57
what can this kind of00:37:00
construction begin after the00:37:04
Impossible pride of the sociologist00:37:06
you mentioned, the psychologist00:37:09
teacher, is realized because in this same studio00:37:11
two days ago the writer Dmitry Bykov00:37:13
you say that transformation can begin00:37:15
precisely with the dissatisfaction of professional00:37:19
communities, but professional00:37:20
communities are the key to00:37:23
breaking up the ice on this river or00:37:27
in some other plane, in your00:37:30
opinion,00:37:32
in this case I agree with Dmitry00:37:35
because the professional community00:37:37
can play a very a big role00:37:39
You see, in Russia there is a very specific00:37:41
situation because00:37:44
if we speak in Marxist language, then00:37:47
we have very weak class ties, I don’t00:37:51
even say to the class consciousness, this goes00:37:53
without saying when the weak one said his consciousness00:37:55
about which we comrades on the left00:38:00
constantly complain about, this is also00:38:03
not the result it’s just Oh, they didn’t explain it to people,00:38:05
they explain it,00:38:07
at least it works weakly, and weak00:38:11
class consciousness in Russia is00:38:13
the result of weak social ties between00:38:16
people, weak class ties, weak00:38:20
horizontal connections with people who00:38:23
are in a similar social00:38:25
class position, but in Russia, at00:38:29
least now a little00:38:31
stronger connections through00:38:33
professional communities00:38:35
and, in principle, the transformation of00:38:37
professional communities into00:38:39
some kind of instrumental support for the future of00:38:42
Russian democracy00:38:44
is a possible move, but the simple question is00:38:48
that these communities still need to be00:38:49
structured, there is no need to work, they00:38:52
need to create an opportunity for00:38:53
self-organization the opportunity to highlight and00:38:56
identify your own leaders to form00:38:58
leaders with your own opinion positions to00:39:02
formulate demands and so on That is, we00:39:04
need to work with this in general Well, by the00:39:06
way, many people are trying00:39:08
to work and this can be a support for the00:39:11
subsequent reconstruction of Russian00:39:12
society, as for ideology,00:39:16
what there shouldn’t be one single00:39:18
ideology, it’s necessary, but in a democratic00:39:22
society it’s00:39:23
completely incomprehensible, that is, it’s clear.00:39:25
Again, the left will have its own ideology of the00:39:29
liberals, and there’s nothing wrong with that, there’s00:39:32
no need to comb the comb,00:39:35
uh, line it up, but uh,00:39:40
you know, it’s still needed, first of all00:39:42
some kind of dialogue00:39:43
Well, just an elementary cultural00:39:46
democratic dialogue is needed, and secondly,00:39:48
we understand perfectly well that there are00:39:50
practical problems that will need to be00:39:52
solved by everyone, but we just need to00:39:54
really look at what ideological00:39:57
approach these problems are solved best in. And00:40:00
so I’m just constantly in case it’s already like00:40:04
the historian also said that Look00:40:06
Why the Bolsheviks came to power,00:40:08
because their ideology was most00:40:11
suitable for the practical00:40:13
solution of those issues that turned out to be00:40:15
unresolved in Russia somewhere, say, at the00:40:19
end of the seventeenth year at the beginning of the00:40:21
eighteenth year, that is, it was not00:40:23
ideologists who came to power thanks to their00:40:26
ideology and circumstances created such a00:40:29
request in which it was the bearers of this00:40:32
ideology who turned out to be the most adequate00:40:33
practically to the00:40:35
question of practical action that was00:40:37
ripe, by the way, if these00:40:40
issues had been resolved earlier, then perhaps00:40:42
they would have been resolved by less radical methods,00:40:44
perhaps other people would have seemed to the authorities,00:40:46
but they were not resolved, which means00:40:48
accordingly, more radical forces come to power.00:40:49
But they immediately resolve the00:40:52
same issues. In this sense, I think00:40:55
that00:40:56
Russia in the future will still have00:40:58
some kind of00:41:00
collection policy, because it’s really00:41:11
impossible to take everything into one hand, in a political sense, and what is called Thank God00:41:15
it’s impossible, there may even be some basis00:41:18
for some hope, but I am deeply convinced00:41:22
that a serious social00:41:23
reconstruction is needed, a reconstruction of social00:41:25
relations, economic relations is needed,00:41:28
a reconstruction is needed that will still allow a much00:41:31
larger part of the population, the00:41:34
vast majority of the population, to be included in the00:41:36
decision-making process and in part,00:41:41
including in receiving the fruits of00:41:43
economic life, so to speak, and uh, by the way, that’s00:41:47
very funny. Because now00:41:50
whoever started to raise issues of property00:41:52
means raising them themselves, the current00:41:54
bosses who say But00:41:55
now let’s take ownership of00:41:57
those who left and I say Well done Guys,00:42:00
definitely ask this question, it’s a very00:42:02
good question, but because if you00:42:04
ask the appropriate question, sooner00:42:06
or later they’ll get to you first of all. To00:42:09
get to the oligarchs, they’ll get to00:42:11
state-owned companies that00:42:13
are actually private companies00:42:14
sending state resources.00:42:17
Yes, very good, yes. Raise the question of ownership00:42:20
too. will be put in place and00:42:22
I hope it decides but it’s up to me to decide the wall00:42:24
as you want00:42:26
and the mechanism for including the00:42:28
population in the restoration Yes, that’s00:42:33
all what you’re talking about, what is the00:42:34
trauma that was inflicted by the current00:42:38
situation to say that00:42:41
the situation is00:42:43
demonstrative in a sense And00:42:45
what it showed us the situation around Ukraine,00:42:47
first of all, in my opinion, is that the authorities are00:42:49
ready to repressively sever ties not just00:42:53
at some professional level, but at a00:42:55
related level, that is, extremely00:42:57
horizontal ties and the people00:42:59
accept this accordingly. Personally, I00:43:02
cannot answer this for myself. But I am not a00:43:04
sociologist or a professional in in this00:43:05
sense, how will this accepting society00:43:10
go through healing, will it embark00:43:13
on this path or should it be led and who00:43:16
should do it?00:43:18
Well, this is just an open question because,00:43:22
well, it’s a well-known topic that00:43:25
society is not ready for democracy, society00:43:27
needs democracy and how to do so, that00:43:30
is Is it possible to introduce Faith? Can it be00:43:33
implanted from above? This is a very big00:43:36
problem, but in any case, it won’t work purely from above.00:43:40
I think that firstly,00:43:42
firstly, it’s all the same and not by chance. You and I have00:43:45
already talked about the professional00:43:47
community, they will start and begin to00:43:49
consolidate this, plus the second point00:43:53
is, of course, populist coalitions,00:43:54
which I think will arise quite00:43:57
quickly around specific problems,00:43:59
these problems will have to be solved, it will be necessary to00:44:01
resist some00:44:02
specific decisions, uh, this can00:44:05
happen spontaneously, this can00:44:07
happen at the regional level, I00:44:10
remind you of the situation in Khabarovsk with00:44:13
the arrest van when suddenly in there is a00:44:18
region somehow consolidated quite quickly00:44:20
unexpectedly quickly for00:44:22
everyone Even for its participants the process00:44:23
can say who did it there who00:44:26
didn’t some local forces00:44:29
organized it all, it doesn’t matter what matters is that this00:44:32
organization started Yes, it began00:44:34
to form unexpectedly quickly some00:44:37
kind of local populist00:44:43
community was then able to scatter it,00:44:48
but I do not rule out that it will be repeated00:44:51
again and again, and sooner or later, after all,00:44:54
these consolidations of the same exist and00:44:56
remember, it was also known for the consolidations of the00:44:59
Arkhangelsk region of the Komi Republic,00:45:02
this is an indicator that in principle, our00:45:05
people are quite capable of gathering into00:45:07
some kind of communities and organizing and,00:45:09
moreover, abandoning their interests, we just00:45:12
need to work with it, and we used to have00:45:14
separate outbreaks of this kind of00:45:16
social movement that then00:45:19
dissolve,00:45:22
and if it becomes more, if they00:45:26
continue along growing, begin00:45:28
to interact with each other, then it is quite00:45:30
possible that the picture will change.00:45:31
Of course00:45:39
[music] is00:45:42
already the least effective for us. And practice may be00:45:45
suppressed. That is, if you00:45:48
start doing something that will make00:45:50
you respect yourself and make others00:45:52
respect you, then accordingly Well, you will be00:45:56
able to heal their00:45:58
inferiority complex and so on and so on But it’s00:46:01
just that, in my opinion, it’s the00:46:03
post-Soviet trauma that00:46:05
needs to be overcome with such00:46:08
positive success, but uh,00:46:11
even Putin’s team00:46:14
understands this in essence, they just00:46:16
understand this success in a very strange way. They understand,00:46:19
well, first of all, - firstly, as success for00:46:21
themselves, this is not so, and secondly,00:46:24
they understand this success exclusively in00:46:26
terms of attacking someone,00:46:30
beating someone, taking something away.00:46:33
Well, unfortunately, sometimes it works like that,00:46:37
but it didn’t work, and the categories of ethics and00:46:41
morality in the idea of possible00:46:44
Success today is not included in any00:46:48
way at all. It’s just that I don’t hear this conversation00:46:51
from either side. And by the way, in00:46:53
Pandangton. What are you talking about? This is a00:46:55
tactical Alliance, left liberal.00:46:58
The Alliance can, from your point of view,00:47:00
only be tactical or strategic00:47:03
so that in its forest you can was there something to give00:47:06
in the long term, is this reality00:47:10
or just a short short00:47:13
distance? Well, then we scatter.00:47:16
You asked me two questions at once, based on00:47:19
different00:47:21
moral aspects, you know, here is the00:47:25
attitude towards the special operation.00:47:28
Well, for those who supported it,00:47:31
the moral argument does not work. Unfortunately,00:47:36
this has been verified What is called again,00:47:39
you say full responsibility, the00:47:40
paradoxes are that at the moment when00:47:43
people00:47:45
who supported the special operation suddenly00:47:47
become disappointed in it and see, for example, that00:47:49
it itself turns out to be unsuccessful, at that00:47:53
moment they suddenly begin to become00:47:55
very receptive to moral00:47:57
argumentation,00:47:59
that is, at first it was just a certain00:48:02
pragmatic situation that was determined00:48:04
then, under this pragmatic situation,00:48:06
people begin to perceive some kind of moral00:48:09
values, it is quite possible, by the00:48:11
way, that in the end they will internalize them much more00:48:13
firmly than it seems at first glance. But00:48:16
the process, as they say, is not going as00:48:19
you would like there and I would probably00:48:20
like us appealed with00:48:22
some moral categories and00:48:24
that would be enough. This, alas, is00:48:26
not enough, unfortunately.00:48:29
Now about the liberals and the left,00:48:32
but firstly, which liberals? Which leftists00:48:33
because both are different and there are00:48:36
certain groups of insane people00:48:38
who, in principle, are not capable to00:48:41
interaction, not so to speak with00:48:44
representatives of some other ideological00:48:46
movements Well, and even in general with As00:48:49
they say, your own00:48:50
political, if not like-minded people,00:48:53
what are called neighbors,00:48:55
but I think that you just need to distinguish between00:48:58
levels, that is, there00:49:01
is a certain level of general democratic00:49:03
issues of tasks the formation of basic00:49:07
institutions,00:49:08
I would even say such00:49:11
civil survival of society, even this is00:49:14
not only a democratic institution,00:49:15
just the formation of civil00:49:17
society as such and its00:49:19
ability to develop, survive,00:49:23
reproduce, and so on, and here I00:49:26
think it is very easy to find a common language,00:49:27
and even oddly enough00:49:31
today many people with such00:49:33
Stalinist nostalgic00:49:35
ideas about the Soviet Union, they are00:49:37
quite capable of joining the process00:49:40
because well, in general, this is also a00:49:43
practice, this is also a practice, often a00:49:44
low-level practice, even because00:49:47
this is not also a parliament, there are00:49:49
no political parties, but this is often00:49:51
also a question about what will happen to your00:49:54
yard there, what will happen to your00:49:56
territory00:49:58
as a town, and so on.00:50:01
Here too, I see a very wide field00:50:04
for such non-political00:50:06
civil cooperation of people00:50:07
who just want to do something,00:50:10
do something on their own, with their own00:50:12
hands,00:50:13
relying on what - one’s own understanding of00:50:17
one’s own interests, and the other question,00:50:19
of course, is a very serious, very00:50:21
sharp debate between left-wing liberals00:50:24
because the liberals will once again00:50:27
tell us that everything will be saved by the00:50:28
free market, but at least in00:50:31
this spirit there will be an argument that everything The whole00:50:34
problem was that the market is simply not enough,00:50:36
freedom00:50:37
of enterprise is not enough, and so on. But uh,00:50:40
well, I think that this is not so. I believe00:50:43
that everything is00:50:46
much more complicated and the00:50:49
ladies understand perfectly well that certain00:50:53
market mechanisms are necessary; this in general was00:50:55
already understood quite clearly by such00:50:58
economic socialists. How is Mikhail00:51:01
Ko cell Askar Lange still from the Second World00:51:05
War, but not to mention the answer to our00:51:08
great teachers Johnny Maynard and Kensi,00:51:09
but in any case,00:51:15
it will still be a problem00:51:16
of property, it will be a problem, there will be a problem of00:51:18
creating a capable00:51:20
public sector, without this00:51:22
you will not get anywhere in Russia, not only in00:51:24
Russia00:51:25
when you say the sector is always00:51:27
ineffective Well, look at the00:51:29
same thing in Finland where In general, especially in the00:51:33
nineties, we saw how it was state-owned companies that00:51:34
pulled countries out of the economic crisis,00:51:38
operating on completely different principles00:51:40
than, say, Soviet or, especially,00:51:43
modern Russian ones, that is, which00:51:44
were structured as also democratic00:51:48
institutions00:51:49
That is, this is a topic for political00:51:53
debate and everything needs some kind of00:51:54
planning, some kind of economic00:51:56
planning to overcome the crisis in00:51:59
that the severity of the crisis will dictate a more00:52:03
radical solution,00:52:05
here the problem is more likely to be different,00:52:07
the problem will be not to go to extremes00:52:11
because the need for radical solutions00:52:15
Well, this concerns decisions and as00:52:17
for the discussion. You mentioned00:52:20
that economists are talking about the00:52:22
privatization of economic relations;00:52:24
politicians or political scientists are talking, rather,00:52:27
even about the primitivization of political life,00:52:30
but00:52:33
the primitivization of thought about everything that is00:52:36
happening on both the00:52:39
left and right sides this is generally a00:52:43
recoverable prospect; today the failure00:52:46
is felt by you as researchers in this00:52:48
direction because00:52:53
the idea of00:52:57
what happened in 2022 and00:53:00
continues now with Russia with its people00:53:03
with its people00:53:05
with its life is largely reduced to a set of cliches of what it costs and what on the other hand00:53:08
but generally speaking, there is a00:53:11
positive side to injuries, it doesn’t make you think, you00:53:14
always need to look for the positive side,00:53:16
you see, I see that the00:53:21
consciousness of00:53:22
people who often look like this00:53:26
today is a00:53:29
Guru of public opinion, or at00:53:33
least representatives of some trends in00:53:35
public opinion00:53:37
Although this can be understood, because00:53:41
you get tired of everything in general, even your own00:53:44
existence at some point, if you00:53:46
don’t rethink them all the time,00:53:48
then you roll them into clichés, but00:53:54
I really like it for00:53:58
a while,00:54:01
as you know, the Academy of Civil Service of00:54:03
the National Economy, from where I was forced to00:54:05
leave as a foreign Agent, I remind you00:54:09
Here is Shanike, I continue to teach00:54:10
further But I can say in Ranhigs,00:54:13
but as you know, students are future00:54:15
managers, potentially at least And I00:54:20
really like my students, they liked them00:54:22
alive, they didn’t have a stamped00:54:24
consciousness, they00:54:25
definitely agreed with me in everything,00:54:27
but they couldn’t in some ways and to disagree, but00:54:30
their living things are subject to consciousness, besides, there is00:54:33
one thing, after all, the intellectual00:54:35
baggage of a modern educated00:54:37
Russian,00:54:39
despite what we are talking about00:54:42
the initialization of economics, but for example, how00:54:44
many different new modern books in00:54:50
all branches of humanities00:54:52
are translated into Russian. This is00:54:55
absolutely amazing. we have to00:54:57
give credit to some people00:55:00
who, in general, started00:55:03
this process in the 90s, but people like00:55:05
Valeria on Shvili, let’s say Boris00:55:08
Kupriyanov, the guys from Admargin, again,00:55:10
and so on. So at that moment, in general, they00:55:14
swam against the tide when- that is,00:55:16
privatization, but now this has already00:55:18
happened, that is, for example, we have just the00:55:20
elementary intellectual baggage of the00:55:21
Russian Internet. It is absolutely00:55:24
enormous, that is, Oh, yes, of course,00:55:29
in English, more so than in00:55:31
Russian. But if we take all other00:55:33
languages, then this is one of the00:55:36
richest in terms of information language where00:55:39
there are books articles texts access to00:55:42
information and so on That is,00:55:45
what is called the equipment is so bad00:55:48
we have where to get information where what to00:55:50
study and so on and there would be a desire As00:55:53
they say, is this luggage00:55:56
the luggage of the bubble that is not able to somehow go beyond00:56:00
its00:56:01
sphere beyond its limiting framework00:56:03
and in this00:56:05
sense, following up on your previous00:56:08
answer, if the benefit is in the stamp in the sense00:56:12
that the stamp is like a Spring drop Yes, it00:56:16
sharpens a hole in a piece of ice And purposefully00:56:21
hits the same place this is what is more00:56:24
productively meaningful, such a discussion00:56:26
on specific points of a specific00:56:31
wide Spectrum of phenomena, such as00:56:34
covering sketched matrices or00:56:37
just hammering, hammering, hammering00:56:41
Well, you have to hammer, it’s part of00:56:44
education, you know, education in general, in an00:56:46
authoritarian way, there will be no discussion.00:56:48
Twice two equals four and you know how,00:56:51
also a well-known joke,00:56:54
politically correct anecdote about a Georgian00:56:56
teacher to whom Givi says very much00:56:59
How much is twice two here00:57:01
the gay girl says, I always tell you Twice00:57:04
two is four Well, good five But if you really00:57:08
need it, then six Well, in extreme cases, seven00:57:10
can sometimes be in rare cases00:57:13
eight but never nine00:57:16
That’s it there is00:57:18
in general, in short, discussion is not00:57:22
always permissible but00:57:27
in vain if you can understand00:57:32
No I probably don’t need to repeat the00:57:35
same points the same ready-made answers00:57:38
you need to look at least When00:57:40
people ask you are ready Give a ready-made Answer00:57:43
give a ready-made answer We don’t want to think00:57:45
we won’t think for ourselves, it’s00:57:47
absolutely disgusting to think hard, we’re not used to00:57:49
it, we don’t know how, you know a ready-made answer. Well, we have to00:57:51
give an answer, but still. I think we00:57:53
need to teach at least some of00:57:55
the people to think, because well, it’s not always easy to just00:57:58
have a ready-made answer, but I00:58:02
think that nevertheless, I repeat, I will remind you00:58:04
This is the beginning of our conversation, remember00:58:06
This is the average man who is00:58:07
silent now Yes, but he will speak, he says,00:58:09
he himself will be surprised at himself, you will need to talk to00:58:13
him, you will need to talk to him,00:58:14
and he will need to be00:58:16
helped to organize and00:58:18
help him realize own00:58:20
interests, that is, in my opinion, work is00:58:23
more of a hint, that is, such a large00:58:26
social pedagogy of a large-scale country00:58:30
at the end of our conversation, two questions,00:58:34
smart girl 2008 now it’s called00:58:38
its own then it was called an operation to00:58:40
force peace and then00:58:44
your article was published on rabkor the instinct of defeatism00:58:46
it evoked there is quite a big discussion00:58:50
today, from the position of pragmatics and from the00:58:54
position of morality, you did not reconsider your00:58:58
understanding of what was00:59:00
happening between Russia and Georgia at that time.00:59:05
No, I didn’t, you understand. I00:59:08
always had excellent relations in00:59:09
Tbilisi with my colleagues who were00:59:12
politically like-minded people and we00:59:15
discussed this a lot with them. and You see,00:59:17
what happened then with the Georgian00:59:20
army was good for Georgia. You understand00:59:22
in this case, in what sense, uh, this is a00:59:25
very unexpected question, you know,00:59:27
Georgia was then heading towards, uh,00:59:29
dictatorship, in fact, Saakashvili00:59:33
could well and wanted to become the Georgian00:59:35
Putin from -due to the fact that they lost00:59:37
that war, he could not become the Georgian00:59:39
Putin and thank God, and in general00:59:41
it turned out to be a great happiness for Georgia. And00:59:44
you can have any attitude towards what is00:59:47
happening there now, but I repeat. In00:59:49
general, issues of democracy were resolved in the00:59:52
same way and sometimes a00:59:54
lost war can be good00:59:56
news. But00:59:58
again, if we take the situation specifically in the01:00:00
eighth year, then for Russia it01:00:03
was a question of such a degree. It was a question01:00:06
of whether it would be possible to try to form some kind of01:00:10
public opinion in terms of01:00:13
changing development priorities;01:00:16
this was not possible then to do although there01:00:19
were certain symptoms, as you01:00:22
remember in the eighth year, in general the picture01:00:23
was a little different in terms of Freedom01:00:26
of democracy than we are today, to put it mildly.01:00:29
Therefore, I think that01:00:34
probably Maybe I’m not saying that01:00:38
everything was said, what was said was01:00:39
correct Yes, but the logic is the same01:00:44
You see, when let’s01:00:46
say, I had a completely one-by-one01:00:49
attitude towards the notorious01:00:53
terrorist operation01:00:55
carried out by the01:00:56
Ukrainian troops, and then I ran around01:01:00
somehow, which means, accordingly, I was also01:01:01
critical of what the01:01:04
Russian army should do to Ukraine. And I think that01:01:07
I don’t like this beauty When, for example,01:01:10
they shell peaceful cities, it01:01:13
doesn’t matter at all whether the city is called01:01:17
Lugansk, Donetsk, or Kiev, Odessa.01:01:21
Kherson, you know, was01:01:26
always outraged when the state01:01:30
[music]01:01:34
but the state should not be a hypocrite. And01:01:37
by the way, the greatest,01:01:39
truly outstanding statesmen01:01:40
who went down in history are people who were01:01:43
not hypocrites They could have been very01:01:46
unique characters, and01:01:48
maybe even something terrible, they01:01:50
were ready to tell the unpleasant truth to01:01:52
their compatriots,01:01:57
when they01:01:59
often talk about hypocrisy that Putin, in01:02:03
his statements about what is happening, is01:02:04
extremely sincere, extremely sincere within the01:02:07
framework of his idea of the world,01:02:10
this01:02:17
I don’t agree I believe that in Russia there is simply01:02:20
institutional hypocrisy,01:02:24
you just understand that the way we01:02:26
treat our01:02:28
government itself, the State itself does01:02:30
not mean that we should01:02:33
love or encourage neighboring states,01:02:36
I see the same problems there, the same01:02:39
unpleasant trends but I am more01:02:42
concerned about what is happening to us and when01:02:46
we know who is dropping bombs on whom in this case.01:02:50
Therefore, accordingly,01:02:53
we must have01:02:57
an understanding of who is the main01:03:00
problem for us today. But from here it01:03:04
absolutely does not follow that we need to01:03:05
idealize those who live on the other01:03:08
side or even more so those who01:03:09
rule there on the other side Everyone has their own01:03:12
problems, everyone has their own shortcomings but we01:03:14
just need to try to figure out our01:03:16
problems01:03:18
Boris Yulchik the last question he knows01:03:21
from space Vera’s assumption rather You01:03:24
believe well You admit that the01:03:30
Russian dictatorship in its form in which it is01:03:32
taking shape today has long-term01:03:34
prospects. Well, it may be somewhat similar to01:03:38
those dictatorships that existed there in01:03:40
Chile, Paraguay, Argentina, and in01:03:43
the end, fascism in such a classical01:03:46
sense of the word is it possible in Russia01:03:48
or has it already taken place? Your assessment01:03:52
Well, Let's start with What's going on here if you follow the01:03:55
workers' correspondent? You've noticed that we have a01:03:57
discussion going on on the channel all the time,01:03:59
viewers constantly ask this question. But in01:04:02
general, I think that fascism in the classical01:04:04
sense is a specific phenomenon,01:04:06
industrial society of the mid-20th century,01:04:09
elements of fascisation can now be found in a01:04:12
wide variety of societies01:04:13
countries including Russia, but01:04:16
fascism As a system,01:04:19
this is a very specific phenomenon01:04:22
because we simply now use the words fascism01:04:24
as a curse Oh, he is a bad01:04:26
person He is a fascist, fascism is a01:04:27
certain type of corporate01:04:29
totalitarian01:04:31
management of the corporate organization of01:04:34
public states, characteristic of a01:04:38
specific industrial society01:04:40
in the 20th century, therefore01:04:43
excluded from usages are too01:04:47
loaded too serve now01:04:52
as for the duration of the dictatorship,01:04:54
these can be very long,01:04:57
but01:04:58
it is difficult to imagine the successful01:05:02
existence of such a regime that01:05:05
draws up its most rigid forms at01:05:08
the end of its existence, that is,01:05:10
you understand, if we take the same01:05:12
Pinochet, then how the Pinochet regime acted.01:05:14
was terrible, cruel and01:05:18
monstrous in the first year and a half there, two years.01:05:21
Then he gradually softened due to01:05:24
this softening, he survived. The same01:05:28
applies to the Franco regimes in Spain, the same01:05:31
thing, by the way, even applies to the01:05:34
dictionary regime of Portugal, and so on and so01:05:37
on. That is, how an effective01:05:41
authoritarian system was built the regime is built on the fact01:05:43
that they either first become very fierce,01:05:46
destroy the opposition, and then01:05:48
gradually soften, so to speak,01:05:50
bring society to some more or less01:05:52
equilibrium state and01:05:54
roll on this for quite a long time by inertia, or01:05:57
have the opportunity to01:05:59
maintain themselves in approximately the same state for a long time01:06:02
same state unchanged01:06:04
again conservative such01:06:06
classical regimes in Russia Nothing01:06:08
like that in Russia the regime was01:06:10
relatively moderate And gradually What is01:06:13
called toughened In what sense did it01:06:16
deteriorate because they are tightening the01:06:19
dictatorial authoritarian world Not because01:06:21
they are such evil former GOSTs and01:06:23
so on Everything this is complete nonsense, but it’s just that01:06:26
everything works worse and worse and worse for them, their01:06:28
social is narrowing, narrowing, narrowing, their01:06:30
effectiveness is decreasing, decreasing,01:06:32
decreasing, and every time there is a decrease in01:06:34
efficiency, a narrowing of the social base, an01:06:36
increase in contradictions, that’s the problem01:06:37
of compensating for the strengthening of01:06:39
administrative and political01:06:41
control, repression, and so on, this is the way01:06:44
to nowhere This means that they, as they01:06:46
say, are already on their way out,01:06:48
the last one in short, what now they give you01:06:51
hope in life01:06:53
in general, I live in hope all my life01:06:57
Well, somehow, once upon a time As you probably01:07:01
know, he was arrested under Brezhnev Then01:07:05
he came out and where is Brezhnev now then under01:07:09
Yeltsin almost killed me in01:07:11
1993. Well, where is Yeltsin now,01:07:15
well, we’ll survive these 10 days under Putin.01:07:19
I sat there. Putin sat.01:07:27
Mittens sat.01:07:39
But this is not because you01:07:44
just01:07:46
need to wait for01:07:48
this time; the editor-in-chief of the01:07:51
portal, rabkor historian and01:07:53
sociologist, will certainly come. Boriska Galitsky today was a01:07:55
guest of this year's first broadcast of the01:07:58
inhale program Boris Ilyich Thank you01:08:00
very much01:08:01
Thank you Good luck01:08:04
[music]01:08:09
friends this is an inhale-exhale program My01:08:11
name is Stanislav Kryuchkov Today the guest of01:08:14
our broadcast was the scientific thinker Boris01:08:17
Kagaletsky Subscribe and01:08:19
of course do not use his resources01:08:21
subscribe to our channel Khodorkovsky01:08:24
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broadcast immediately after the end of this Yasno01:08:50
Skachkov I say goodbye to you Take care of yourself and01:08:52
good luck bye01:08:54
[music]Description:
Историк и социолог Борис КАГАРЛИЦКИЙ, главный редактор портала Рабкор.ру @Rabkor гость программы Станислава Крючкова «Вдох-Выдох» НАСТОЯЩИЙ МАТЕРИАЛ (ИНФОРМАЦИЯ) ПРОИЗВЕДЕН, РАСПРОСТРАНЕН И (ИЛИ) НАПРАВЛЕН ИНОСТРАННЫМ АГЕНТОМ КАГАРЛИЦКИМ БОРИСОМ ЮЛЬЕВИЧЕМ, ЛИБО КАСАЕТСЯ ДЕЯТЕЛЬНОСТИ ИНОСТРАННОГО АГЕНТА КАГАРЛИЦКОГО БОРИСА ЮЛЬЕВИЧА. Новый срок Путина и старт транзита, готов ли Кремль пойти по пути большевиков. В Кремль возвращается большевизм. Мобилизационные уроки, военные сборы, отсрочки для отцов. Наступило ли время дискуссий о послепутинском устройстве России. Насколько длительной будет нынешняя диктатура и стоит ли называть ее фашистской? О конформистском обществе, системном лицемерии молчаливого большинства, поддельной искренности Путина, невозможной и обманчивой социологии. В пятницу 13 января в 17-00 на канале @khodorkovskylive Таймкоды: 00:00 Начало. Гость — Борис Кагарлицкий 01:05 Зачем вообще выборы в 2024 году? 09:54 Почему 80% россиян не до политики? 13:33 Почему конформист непобедим 17:38 «Мобилизацией власть тестирует границы дозволенного» 20:43 Происходящее как «приключение». Как перестать жить в ужасе 22:56 Что есть корень всего происходящего сейчас? 29:04 Элиты не могут решить проблему самих себя 31:14 О «русском мире» и зачем эта идеология 36:35 Почему в России нет классового сознания и к чему это приведет 42:27 Как консолидировать российское общество 46:40 Как разочаровываются сторонники войны 48:29 Каков потенциал лево-либеральных объединений? 52:16 О «штампах» в сознании россиян и как от них избавиться 58:31 Как проигранные войны могут иметь хорошие последствия 1:02:00 Об институциональном лицемерии в России 1:03:19 О фашизме — есть ли он сейчас в России? 1:06:49 Что сейчас дарит надежду? 1:08:09 Конец Интернет-журнал РАБКОР - https://rabkor.ru/ ============================= Телеграм-канал Станислава Крючкова https://t.me/photoplenka ============================= Дмитрий БЫКОВ в программе «НАВИГАТОР» https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DheVQwrJwv8 ============================= Драматург Иван ВЫРЫПАЕВ в программе «ВДОХ-ВЫДОХ» https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fnU39HXUKU ============================= Группа «БЕЛАЯ ГВАРДИЯ» и ЗОЯ ЯЩЕНКО в программе «ВДОХ-ВЫДОХ» https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBWk6lfZfYU ============================= Писатель Станислав БЕЛКОВСКИЙ в программе «ВДОХ-ВЫДОХ» https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsyJ7JmfHwA ============================= Адвокат Илья НОВИКОВ в программе «ВДОХ-ВЫДОХ» https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzumJcxSdu8 ============================= Музыкант Константин АРБЕНИН в программе «ВДОХ-ВЫДОХ» https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_143oZVFMw ============================= Блог Михаила Ходорковского: https://www.youtube.com/user/khodorkovskyru =============================
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