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Russian
00:00:00
[Music]00:00:21
welcome back to talking Europe those who00:00:23
risk their lives at Sea do not invade00:00:26
they look for welcome those are the00:00:28
words of Pope Francis Lament what he00:00:30
called a fanaticism of indifference00:00:32
towards migrants during a recent visit00:00:35
to The Melting Pot Mediterranean city of00:00:37
M now the Pope's plea packed an extra00:00:40
punch because it comes after some00:00:43
8,500 people arrived on Italy's southern00:00:46
island of lampedusa over three days just00:00:49
three days in September now the head of00:00:51
the Catholic Church what did he urge00:00:54
greater European cooperation more legal00:00:56
routes to entry and better integration00:00:59
for migrants00:01:00
now an igu migrant and Asylum pack is 300:01:04
years in the making it aims to address00:01:06
all of these challenges but it has met00:01:09
stiff resistance across Europe populist00:01:13
calls to crack down on illegal migrants00:01:15
are drowning out calls to welcome them00:01:19
I'm asking today and I'm asking my00:01:20
guests today whether the Pope's plea is00:01:23
going to fall on deaf ears in Europe and00:01:26
my guests are uh starting with Malina00:01:28
Bor uh you're Swedish uh Member of00:01:31
Parliament from the left party which is00:01:34
of the left and on my left but more to00:01:38
the right I suppose is Sandro gsy uh you00:01:42
are with uh the renew party uh renew me00:01:45
you're an Italian but you were elected00:01:47
to the parliament on the French list00:01:49
correct the welcoming message of the00:01:51
Pope um he's saying please they're not00:01:54
Invaders we're here to welcome them but00:01:55
in the past few days we have seen The00:01:57
Italian farri Prime Minister send a00:02:00
letter to the German Chancellor saying00:02:02
she's astonished that Germany is helping00:02:06
NOS pay to rescue migrants in the00:02:10
Mediterranean00:02:11
Sea is that a welcome I I'll put the00:02:15
question to you Malin Bor is that the00:02:17
political will to welcome migrants well00:02:20
I think you know me and the pope we00:02:22
haven't been uh in agreement on many00:02:24
issues but on this we are I think what00:02:26
is happening now is that we have a00:02:28
Mediterranean Sea that is the most00:02:30
deadly it has ever ever been and it's00:02:34
more uh the fact is that states are00:02:36
stopping uh search and rescue missions00:02:39
by organizations and certainly the00:02:42
states are not doing enough of search00:02:43
and rescue so it's the most deadly SE00:02:46
when people arrive instead of having00:02:48
dignified reception conditions and00:02:50
sharing the responsibility for reception00:02:52
and welcoming countries are throwing the00:02:55
the responsibility between them and they00:02:57
are they are you know we see rise in in00:03:00
I would say both racist and00:03:03
xenophobic00:03:04
um narratives and I think we're on the00:03:07
wrong path and it makes me even more00:03:10
worried when I know that this hasn't00:03:13
worked so far so when Ura fan proposes a00:03:17
continuation of the same uh failed00:03:20
politics deadly politics for the00:03:22
Mediterranean I'm quite disappointed and00:03:25
you use the word deadly and I just want00:03:27
to Sandro give you a number here I know00:03:29
stati stcs people's eyes glaze over but00:03:31
this is a deadly statistic00:03:34
2,300 migrants have died or gone missing00:03:38
while trying to cross the Mediterranean00:03:41
from North Africa also subsaharan Africa00:03:44
towards mostly Italy and and Greece00:03:48
2,300 surely surely there's political00:03:52
will to stop that somewhere are you00:03:55
finding it in your party I um I'm always00:03:58
very concerned when we speak about this00:04:00
because I've been in government in Italy00:04:03
for four years and half and I had the00:04:07
very terrific experience some very often00:04:10
to have to go and recognize the dead00:04:12
body of the migrants so I I saw many00:04:16
coffing and uh I think that we should00:04:19
always remember that we are first human00:04:21
being before being member of the00:04:23
government politician and member of the00:04:25
parliament so the fact that we don't00:04:28
save everybody it's really shameful and00:04:31
then it is certainly the consequence of00:04:34
political choices Georgia Mone for00:04:36
example the extreme right Italian Prime00:04:38
Minister has won the election talking00:04:41
about a naval blockade so she said I00:04:43
want to block everybody and it is clear00:04:47
that the reluctance uh of country like00:04:51
Italy now in doing everything we can to00:04:54
save life that has been the case until00:04:57
few weeks ago it is certainly a matter00:04:59
of of concern the main point is however00:05:03
that if everybody thinks to solve or to00:05:06
escape the problem of migration on its00:05:09
own we all lose we all lose but here's00:05:12
the thing you have a farri prime00:05:14
minister in power who is now up against00:05:17
the reality of migration she campaigned00:05:19
in campaigns on blocking migrants she00:05:21
sees that that is not a possible a00:05:24
realistic policy how do you change that00:05:26
because she's not the only farri voice00:05:28
in Europe right now two countries Poland00:05:31
and Hungary don't want anything to do00:05:33
with migrants they don't even want to00:05:35
pay other countries to do something00:05:37
about migrants where do you start with00:05:40
that well I think you know we have a00:05:42
very big responsibility those of us that00:05:45
actually challenge the farri right00:05:46
narrative we have to say well look you00:05:49
know not only the pope but many of us00:05:52
think that it's not only our duty to be00:05:55
a welcoming continent it is a00:05:57
possibility we showed it with Ukraine00:05:59
everyone said it's not possible it's not00:06:01
possible millions of refugees and it was00:06:04
possible for me it is a very positive00:06:07
experience and that's what we should00:06:09
build upon and the only way to do it is00:06:12
to share the responsibility and it means00:06:15
that of course Italy should not be left00:06:16
alone Spain Malta no country should be00:06:19
left alone with the reception and00:06:22
dignified welcoming we should share it00:06:26
but that's again you know the far right00:06:28
they are trying to fuse xenophobic00:06:30
racist uh sentiments and saying that00:06:33
every problem in society uh you know the00:06:36
they're they're raising inequalities Etc00:06:38
and the difficulty for people to make00:06:40
ends meet in their in their daily lives00:06:43
blame it all scapegoat the migrants00:06:45
scapegoat the refugees so we have a very00:06:47
big responsibility to address the real00:06:49
concerns of people but at the same time00:06:51
say your scapegoating it's just not okay00:06:55
and I think saving lives at Sea it's00:06:57
it's a legal obligation international00:07:00
law EU law this is what we have to do so00:07:02
not so not embarking on search and00:07:06
rescue operations it is must be pursued00:07:09
in Justice you know so a legal a00:07:11
humanitarian a moral obligation can you00:07:14
get votes in Italy today as a politician00:07:16
if you do not scapegoat migrants I'm00:07:18
simplifying the question but if you do00:07:20
not in some way make migrants the guilty00:07:24
party can you get votes as a politician00:07:27
of course Jo Mone as a has won the00:07:29
election promising a blockade promising00:07:33
to get rid of the migrant promising a00:07:35
quick quick fix Solution on the00:07:37
migratory issues where whereas there00:07:39
isn't a quick fix solution there is a a00:07:42
humanitarian international law European00:07:44
law duty of saving life and then there00:07:47
there are instrument which are in the00:07:50
Asylum migration pact which are there to00:07:54
manage us to take back control as00:07:56
European on the migratory flows that00:07:58
means we have to work more on the00:08:00
country of origin in my view also using00:08:03
Visa Trade Agreement development Aid to00:08:06
better cooperate with them on on00:08:08
migration we have to consider the00:08:10
external border as common European00:08:12
border00:08:14
and and we have to be serious with00:08:17
solidarity to a country when this00:08:19
country it is exposed to a crisis but00:08:22
the point that the extreme right wants00:08:24
to create the sentiment of invasion00:08:26
wants to create the sentiment of urgency00:08:29
because they want they don't want to00:08:31
solve at the roots the problem they want00:08:33
to exploit the problem as political00:08:35
capital and this is in Italy it has00:08:37
exactly what happened in one exactly one00:08:40
year ago and and it's working right now00:08:42
we're you know we're hearing right now00:08:43
the language out of Germany that it has00:08:45
a limit to how many migrants it can take00:08:47
in there's a limit on migration and I'm00:08:50
wondering because you think back to 201500:08:52
2016 under Angela Merkel Germany took a00:08:55
million nearly a million migrants that00:08:57
to me seems like a Stark change in the00:08:59
political00:09:01
climate well I think what is very clear00:09:03
to everyone is that we have to invest in00:09:06
in integration and you know there has00:09:08
been different waves in my country in00:09:10
Sweden of of uh uh of immigration and uh00:09:13
Refugee arrivals but it's clear that we00:09:16
have to invest in integration but we00:09:18
also have to invest in our societies00:09:20
just like as a baseline we have to00:09:22
invest and I think that's where we00:09:23
different you know the right and the00:09:25
left wing you know not only does it00:09:27
doesn't serve to scapegoat migrants and00:09:29
refugees we have to be fair and look00:09:31
each other in the eyes many right-wing00:09:32
governments today in Europe cooperate00:09:34
with the far right and they buy Into The00:09:37
Narrative of of racism and xenophobia H00:09:40
but they don't because they don't want00:09:42
to pursue an agenda of more social and E00:09:45
economic Justice and I think that will00:09:46
be the the the the the what can break a00:09:49
society if societies totally you know00:09:52
pull up or pulled apart sure then you00:09:55
know the capacity to whether it be to00:09:58
welcome you know new arrivals to deal00:10:01
with climate change issues anything we00:10:03
will be so weak and this is the richest00:10:05
continent in the world yeah 2023 I want00:10:08
to end with I want to end by by00:10:10
returning to this welcoming this00:10:11
compassion issue M Bor you got some00:10:14
headlines back in00:10:15
2014 uh when you encourage passengers00:10:18
not to fasten their seat Bel on a plane00:10:20
because there was a fellow passenger an00:10:22
Iranian who was being deported back to00:10:24
Iran um and in protest you wouldn't00:10:26
fasten your seat Bel he was transferred00:10:28
to another plane ultimately00:10:29
he got residency in Sweden um and you00:10:32
could argue thanks to your action do you00:10:34
see anyone doing that today in Europe00:10:36
and and what would the reaction be today00:10:39
if you did that if you did not fasten00:10:40
your seat Bel to protest someone being00:10:42
expelled an asylum00:10:44
Seeker well I hope the reaction would be00:10:49
uh still uh you know acceptable because00:10:53
in in his case he had his you know I I00:10:56
think his daughter was 6 months old it00:10:58
would in in Sweden being sent back to00:11:00
Iran a country where he risked his life00:11:02
and later he got the residence permit00:11:04
but the thing is that I think being uh00:11:07
politically engaged means that you also00:11:09
have to to carry your values and try to00:11:12
act upon them that's my case but I think00:11:15
we are we are uh we need to be more in00:11:17
the political sphere that that are00:11:20
serious about the possibility of making00:11:24
a differ choosing a different path than00:11:26
the far right path and we have to start00:11:29
to construct that future together and I00:11:31
think that is a common task that we have00:11:33
for the 2024 elections uh and and00:11:36
speaking of that San GOI I was going to00:11:37
give you the last word unfortunately00:11:39
we've run out of time um I will mention00:11:41
though as you both know the European00:11:43
Union is working on uh a new migration00:11:46
and Asylum pact it has been many years00:11:49
in the negotiation as I said at the00:11:50
beginning um they're hoping to pass it00:11:53
by April one word are you just one word00:11:55
are you optimistic SRO gosy that they00:11:57
will get this new pack through by April00:12:00
I'm determined and we must do everything00:12:02
we can to get it before the European00:12:04
election and this is the strong will of00:12:05
renew Europe and also of the friends00:12:07
govern in the next and I only want to00:12:10
see it happen if it has this mechanism00:12:12
of sharing the responsibility sharing00:12:13
the responsibility will end with that00:12:15
idea of sharing uh you've been watching00:12:17
talking Europe and we're on a theme that00:12:19
we are going to be returning to I00:12:21
suspect many times in the weeks and00:12:23
months ahead thanks for watching and00:12:24
thanks to both of you for joining us00:12:26
today here from Brussels00:12:28
[Music]Description:
"Those who risk their lives at sea do not invade, they look for welcome." With these words, Pope Francis admonished Europe for failing to treat migrants with dignity. Speaking during his recent visit to the melting-pot French Mediterranean city of Marseille, the pontiff lamented what he called a "fanaticism of indifference" at a time when Europe has been seeing a sharp increase in migrant arrivals. Some 8,500 people landed on Italy's southern island of Lampedusa over just three days in September. Read more about this story in our article: https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/talking-europe/20231006-a-fanaticism-of-indifference-is-a-divided-eu-deaf-to-pope-s-plea-to-welcome-migrants?utm_slink=f24.my%2F9qBk 🔔 Subscribe to France 24 now: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQfwfsi5VrQ8yKZ-UWmAEFg?sub_confirmation=1&utm_slink=f24.my%2FYTen 🔴 LIVE - Watch FRANCE 24 English 24/7 here: https://www.youtube.com/c/FRANCE24English/live?utm_slink=f24.my%2FYTliveEN 🌍 Read the latest International News and Top Stories: https://www.france24.com/en/ Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser Follow us on X (Twitter): https://f24.my/Xen Browse the news in pictures on Instagram: https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser Discover our TikTok videos: https://www.tiktok.com/@France24_en?utm_slink=f24.my%2FTKen Get the latest top stories on Telegram: https://t.me/France24_en?utm_slink=f24.my%2FTGen
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