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Russian
00:00:11
Hello, good evening, gentlemen, to everyone who00:00:13
has gathered with us. I am very glad that you came to00:00:17
this broadcast because we have a broadcast today.00:00:18
I consider it an absolutely wonderful guest00:00:21
with Tamara Natanovna. Idelman with the historian00:00:25
with Well, I don’t know, there is a person with a capital00:00:28
letter00:00:29
Tamara Natalya, first of all, hello00:00:32
Good afternoon, Hello,00:00:35
and secondly, to all our listeners, I00:00:37
recommend that you do not forget to subscribe00:00:39
to both our channel and Tamara00:00:42
Natanna’s channel, which we have links in00:00:43
the description, we generally have an00:00:45
extremely feminine society today, even00:00:47
instead of a cat tie there is a cat bow tie So00:00:50
we are here all your own00:00:52
and also share links to the broadcast and00:00:55
like because Tamara Natanna and I00:00:58
agreed on a topic that00:01:00
has been bothering me for a long time and I decided that’s00:01:02
why I’ll try, let my00:01:05
goods have a00:01:08
chivalrous attitude towards the enemy Or,00:01:11
on the contrary, not a chivalrous one, if possible, I00:01:13
’ll make a small introduction what I mean is that00:01:17
we can give a lot of examples in00:01:22
medieval Europe, which the00:01:24
author of Cervantes laughed at, that during00:01:26
feudal society in feudal Europe there00:01:29
really was a completely00:01:32
unique relationship with the enemy, then one00:01:34
who is grateful by social00:01:36
status, when people were not punished for00:01:39
revolts when the enemy was defeated00:01:42
after the crisis, let’s say some Edward the00:01:45
third received in his tent and00:01:48
personally fed with and personally served food, and I even00:01:53
wrote out from the chronicle of the croissard an00:01:56
absolutely stunning example that00:01:58
happened to the English knight raw00:02:01
Matthew Redman, it happened after the battle00:02:04
of Averde The fact is that this cheese00:02:07
swords were taken prisoner, a Scottish knight took prisoner,00:02:10
and the whole thing happened in the forest,00:02:14
so no one saw this fight. And00:02:16
after that, they roughly separated00:02:18
because Sir Lindsay went about his business and00:02:22
made a promise with cheese that he would settle00:02:24
his household affairs here and after that he would appear.00:02:27
in Edinburgh he will live in captivity until00:02:29
a ransom is paid for him and, in fact, it00:02:32
was a completely normal episode of this00:02:34
time if it had not happened that after00:02:36
this the winner and, accordingly,00:02:40
Sir Matthew himself was captured by the Scots00:02:44
and in the evening they themselves met each00:02:46
other and produced what is called shadow and00:02:50
this is just a scene not made of tungsten and00:02:54
ours Bach not Stomas and Mel This is a story00:02:56
from life one knight takes another00:02:58
captive asks to go home promises in three00:03:00
weeks to be from his winner and00:03:02
won calmly agrees Well, it’s hard for us to00:03:05
imagine what is happening in00:03:08
Russia now -the Ukrainian war may have a00:03:11
similar scene and again in the Second00:03:14
World War00:03:15
And00:03:16
even if I have another second00:03:19
of time And I will quote another scene00:03:23
that also really struck me, this00:03:25
scene or rather it is not at all00:03:28
amazing But one is completely00:03:29
obvious This is my favorite my favorite00:03:33
book I'm on Valtin's future Agent of the00:03:35
Comintern who, being an Italian,00:03:38
told how during the First World00:03:41
War he lived with his father in Genoa and,00:03:45
accordingly, the surrounding boys,00:03:46
because they were Germans, threw at them with00:03:49
everything they could beat them and persecuted them in the00:03:52
newspapers there were terrible cartoons in00:03:54
which they were told how the Germans were they eat00:03:55
small children and I was a little surprised00:03:59
because in fact his name was Yulia00:04:01
Skrips But that doesn’t matter and it’s a little00:04:06
And in fact he was very surprised00:04:08
because his father was a terrible00:04:12
anti-imperialist communist and00:04:15
accordingly was against the Kaiser of this00:04:16
wave, it didn’t stop him from getting on the computer00:04:20
because that all of you Krauts are like this, this is00:04:24
one type of attitude towards the enemy. Here is00:04:26
another type of attitude towards the enemy. In00:04:29
one case, a worthy opponent00:04:30
whom you respect and through this00:04:33
you rise, and in another case, this is a00:04:35
non-human, not a person, which means we don’t00:04:38
know you, we are all yours00:04:42
and it’s clear that in connections with this war In00:04:46
connection with the attitude towards Ukraine that00:04:48
Putin is instilling because he began to00:04:51
instill this relationship there,00:04:54
the Nazis live there, the Scoundrels are there, they all00:04:56
need to be wiped off the face of the earth and multiplied by 0,00:04:59
so we will discuss how the war changed the00:05:04
attitude towards the enemy and what did it00:05:07
depend on Tamara Natanda after this00:05:10
long speech you have the floor what00:05:28
you say I think I was00:05:32
thinking when you and I decided to choose00:05:34
such a topic I was thinking about it there is no00:05:38
chivalrous attitude towards war that00:05:40
war has always been an abomination, muck, blood and00:05:43
dirt, but only once certain,00:05:50
simply Putin is violating them, now00:05:54
there is also a rule in Geneva, Geneva00:05:56
conventions, there are numerous things that cannot be00:06:00
done00:06:02
and it still may not be as brazen as the00:06:07
Russian troops are doing now,00:06:09
in fact, these are the beautiful Knights, you00:06:13
yourself started with that, they respected those whom they did00:06:16
n’t consider any00:06:20
medieval war to be their equal, to begin with, they do00:06:23
n’t have any logistics at all, they don’t have it, it’s00:06:26
impossible,00:06:28
but before the Crusades, according to the rules,00:06:32
feudal wars lasted no more than 4000:06:35
days there, if you pay extra,00:06:38
roughly speaking, then the lord must00:06:40
support his boys and It seems00:06:43
how is such a peace-loving restriction in00:06:46
fact simply because it is impossible to feed00:06:48
And how they fed naturally00:06:51
did not rob the local population That is,00:06:54
even this is not in all these descriptions of the00:06:57
beautiful knightly relations of surrender00:07:02
Here is my glove, this is all because of00:07:07
course Of course This is the00:07:09
Centenary the war00:07:12
led to the fact that France had an00:07:16
exhibition00:07:19
Why it began because all the00:07:23
detachments of00:07:25
wandering knights were wandering around, which they turned into,00:07:27
by the way, they were most afraid of the world00:07:31
because while the war somehow still00:07:34
contains But there have been changes for00:07:36
quite a large number of years00:07:41
Therefore,00:07:43
yes, some specific ones specific sir00:07:47
could have come to an agreement with others. Although this, it00:07:50
seems to me, is also very common when increased, that’s why00:07:56
they took prisoners and00:08:00
collected ransom only from those who could pay. And00:08:04
what happened to those who couldn’t, that00:08:06
is, the majority. And what’s the point of taking00:08:09
captivity to feed is00:08:22
off scale in all00:08:25
respects, what is today?00:08:28
No, I was just about to discuss this too,00:08:32
because Yes, I really00:08:34
specifically emphasized this so that I would00:08:37
n’t be reproached in the process. And that the chivalrous00:08:40
attitude has always been an attitude only00:08:42
towards an equal, towards someone who can, roughly speaking,00:08:44
pay the price, but everything else is here00:08:48
these ruinous raids, it00:08:50
was called shivashe, it actually took place00:08:51
in the category of economic00:08:53
war, I now condemn the castle, if I00:08:57
take this castle, then of course its owner or00:09:01
mistress will receive all sorts of respect, but00:09:04
while the castle is besieged, then everything around it00:09:07
will simply be burned out and this is00:09:10
normal and no one cares it doesn’t even seem to care about this at all,00:09:14
because well, these same00:09:16
people, being taken prisoner, cannot00:09:18
pay,00:09:19
and moreover, this has always not00:09:24
applied to those people who00:09:26
also refuse to00:09:28
wage a knightly war, but for example, if00:09:30
someone cooks instead of00:09:34
galloping in armor, they00:09:37
peel off to the castle and the garrison takes it at night00:09:42
by cunning and massacres the entire00:09:45
garrison then when this one falls in this00:09:47
case his name was Yes, the officer catches him, then of00:09:49
course No one asks for a ransom for him,00:09:52
he is also00:09:53
hanged at the highest top and even00:09:57
before that there are00:09:58
4 parts because chivalry is always00:10:02
must be Mutual But nevertheless,00:10:07
you must agree because I thought that we00:10:10
would talk about this,00:10:17
by the way, there was a very00:10:20
cruel war. There, as you know, three00:10:22
plundered to the end, nevertheless, when00:10:25
Homer writes about how they fought, he00:10:29
treats both sides with amazing respect00:10:31
he doesn’t call the other00:10:34
side a non-human, he doesn’t call it, by00:10:36
the way, this is very typical for almost00:10:39
all epics, and accordingly,00:10:41
the question arises: Under what conditions00:10:44
do you treat the enemy this way and under what conditions do00:11:07
you know differently?00:11:08
There the gods are involved in a lot of things and it’s00:11:13
very difficult Homer is not an enemy this is an00:11:16
epic, so there is no00:11:18
personal connection at all00:11:20
and therefore nothing is clear here, I’m00:11:24
afraid that in reality00:11:26
everything was still not quite and00:11:30
you understand here Of course you can say even00:11:34
in the 20th century Well, they probably00:11:37
say it happened in the area of the Second00:11:40
World War, it just became a war00:11:42
although in the Second World War you can find00:11:45
situations when the00:11:47
career military respected each other, it is clearly00:11:50
visible during the war00:11:53
that of course the00:11:56
British treated them with great respect00:12:05
and there Hitler ordered there the French00:12:08
Legion fought00:12:11
in Africa and00:12:14
even from Hitler’s point of view, the00:12:18
British who are captured are prisoners,00:12:22
well, it’s clear that with They also had a lot of things,00:12:25
it’s all at Nuremberg later it00:12:28
will be revealed But this is a prisoner They are allowed00:12:31
there to the Red Cross and so on and the00:12:36
French00:12:37
are free France they don’t recognize00:12:41
power,00:12:43
so for Hitler they are00:12:46
rebels just as the fortress will fall off00:12:52
they break the rules00:12:58
so he gave orders to everyone It’s typical for the French00:13:01
who end up at00:13:04
night that Romel, who00:13:06
was generally on his mind, always didn’t,00:13:09
he treated the same as00:13:16
it was possible,00:13:18
that is, these are career military men who, well, it’s00:13:23
not for ideological00:13:26
reasons that they fight because that’s their00:13:29
business before the war. They tried some... then00:13:32
things must be observed as soon as it begins. We are00:13:36
fighting for living space or00:13:39
for the world revolution or for the Russian world00:13:41
here. Of course, for the sake of higher ideas, you can00:13:45
cut anyone down.00:13:49
Well, Homer didn’t describe00:13:53
what Homer described. Not that. That’s absolutely00:13:56
accurate because, for example,00:13:59
historians have long noticed that Homer00:14:01
describes a chariot fight. So00:14:04
he has people riding a chariot to the place of00:14:07
battle and then jumping off and fighting with swords,00:14:09
which is very funny because he described00:14:12
the situation of the Bronze Age when, first of all,00:14:15
no one had swords because they00:14:17
just appeared at the beginning of the Iron00:14:19
Age And secondly, the chariots were00:14:21
used in a completely different way. They were00:14:24
used as a mobile moving00:14:26
platform for the shooter, who rode along the00:14:28
front of the battle and accordingly described and00:14:32
poured out00:14:34
rules arose; the shooter showered with00:14:37
shots, that is, he definitely00:14:39
really did not understand anything about00:14:42
how the Achaeans fought in threes if they00:14:44
ever fought like that, is00:14:45
he even alive after Many centuries00:14:49
if she was00:14:53
but there was something but since three plundered a lot,00:14:55
by the way, in the end Yes, they did00:14:59
n’t treat the three chivalrously and00:15:01
since, in my opinion, 18 I do00:15:02
n’t remember how many there three poor thing ate00:15:05
well there two big00:15:24
tidbits,00:15:33
but nevertheless, I’m interested in what you00:15:36
said about the 20th century because it00:15:38
seemed to me that the situation was a little different. And00:15:42
that the chivalrous attitude of00:15:44
respect for the enemy was usually00:15:46
associated with the existence of a Caste of00:15:48
professional military men,00:15:50
be it, by the way, the00:15:53
Bronze Age warriors who were00:15:55
aristocrats be it Samurai, be it00:15:58
European Knights, and be it even00:16:00
professional military men from the times of the00:16:02
Napoleonic wars, aristocrats, officers,00:16:04
nobles. But the00:16:07
lack of such respect,00:16:10
Oddly enough, was very often associated with a00:16:13
mass army, in particular, if you00:16:15
look at the description of00:16:17
how the Greek army treated the Persians00:16:21
during the Greek times the Persian wars, it00:16:24
feels like there was no respect and the00:16:27
constant Greek bosses rip their00:16:29
shirts and say look at them, look,00:16:30
they are not people, they are00:16:32
fish, they don’t even walk around naked. I really00:16:35
like it. Well,00:16:44
in general, you understand, this is about00:16:50
what I was talking about, the00:16:51
professional military They see they they see professionalism in00:16:55
war00:16:56
as such a tournament A bloody00:16:59
battle of equals they respect other00:17:03
professionals00:17:05
When the need arises to fight00:17:09
not with some small professional00:17:12
detachments but with large ones00:17:15
Well, when the war acquires, let’s00:17:19
say, an incredibly important character, the00:17:21
Crusades were an order of magnitude00:17:27
more brutal than any previous00:17:32
knightly wars There too there were00:17:35
robbers00:17:39
[music]00:17:41
that were carried out by people who00:17:43
laid down their00:17:45
sins, forgave and are. This is a strange00:17:50
message that they fought in the virus.00:18:01
By the way, they started with Jewish pogroms back in00:18:04
Europe and this is understandable, again, because00:18:08
this is also an ideological war, and to00:18:12
some extent the Greco-Persian wars Well,00:18:14
maybe it’s not very good00:18:16
to talk about environmental friendliness here, but this is00:18:19
our survival. It’s not just00:18:22
wars, although there were a lot of interesting things there too.00:18:25
But when you start00:18:27
fighting for some super personal00:18:29
values, they are just trying to grab00:18:32
pieces of something valuable there00:18:38
And by the way, you will attract as00:18:41
many people as possible00:18:44
because if we talk about another00:18:48
community that never00:18:51
spared anyone, these are the Mongols who generally00:18:55
believed that the whole world was our subjects. And00:18:57
if someone refuses, then he’s already a00:18:59
bottler,00:19:00
cut him out for the hell of it.00:19:03
Well, they spared those who surrendered right away,00:19:07
if the city surrendered right away, then00:19:09
please they all included00:19:15
this. Our ideas that the00:19:17
Mongols are much more cruel than00:19:20
Western knights, in general, arose00:19:22
largely because they came from the East and00:19:25
how unlike the beautiful ones00:19:29
who surrendered please and the rest,00:19:32
of course,00:19:35
also how to go00:19:39
here, there were simply more bright00:19:46
Mongols left, I remembered exactly because there00:19:49
were very few00:19:51
wars that were fought. Well, especially until the00:19:55
time when ideology won, when00:19:57
they began to fight there like Hitler or like00:20:00
Stalin, the00:20:01
Mongols were one of the few formations00:20:04
that believed that as if the whole world00:20:06
belongs to us And if someone00:20:08
resists, then he is not a warrior, but a rebel00:20:11
And why I remember this because00:20:14
every time I see how Putin00:20:16
treated Ukraine even before the age of 22 Well,00:20:21
let’s say How Savchenko was judged to hope00:20:23
for something, that is, a person is fighting against you,00:20:27
which means this is a war, she’s a military enemy,00:20:33
she’s been captured, and Putin00:20:37
begins to judge her quite seriously. Well, with some00:20:40
completely incredible explanations, and00:20:43
remember the00:20:44
unfortunate Ukrainian ship that00:20:47
was also captured, and instead of saying00:20:50
that they are prisoners of war, they are facing00:20:53
criminal charges and Putin00:20:56
tried to do the same thing with the people of Azov. But thank God00:20:59
the process didn’t work out there, but this is his00:21:03
presentation as Mongols, it’s just00:21:05
really, now I feel like I’m00:21:07
speaking with some ideological cliches,00:21:09
but I’m not talking with ideological cliches00:21:11
like Putin is like a Mongol. I’m just00:21:15
comparing typology of thinking because00:21:17
it really is like this: since they00:21:20
resist, it means they are00:21:25
not even enemies, but traitors and00:21:29
rebels, and with traitors,00:21:34
you know the00:21:36
comparison with the Mongols, firstly, because00:21:40
this is also connected, it pushes to the00:21:42
idea that Russia was formed00:21:45
under the influence Mongol yoke that In my00:21:48
opinion,00:21:50
here I am exactly Sorry for God's sake I just00:21:53
wanted to run away from this because well,00:21:56
it’s such a hackneyed comparison But in this00:21:58
case it suggests itself That’s exactly the00:22:00
typological attitude towards the enemy I00:22:03
only mean this Yes00:22:07
It was a very long time ago00:22:12
century00:22:17
comparison with the Second World War00:22:21
incredible00:22:25
and to the prisoners that from the Germans00:22:50
Because there are things more important00:22:55
and that’s why Hitler immediately issues00:23:00
all these well, orders to the commissars to00:23:03
immediately shoot them, orders to the command that the00:23:06
Paratroopers should be shot right there, it doesn’t matter, they00:23:12
didn’t give up to shoot, that is, I even I’m00:23:17
not talking about the civilian population,00:23:21
it’s as if it’s already beyond the bounds, but even00:23:24
those who seem to be with whom you should play are00:23:28
different,00:23:33
you and I are not on equal terms because our00:23:37
ideology is better00:23:41
and the way prisoners were treated00:23:53
was not00:23:59
by chance for quite some time back00:24:03
means there was life with students We00:24:06
travel to Scotland and we got to the00:24:08
Orkney Islands where the sock on Flor00:24:11
was such a base for the British fleet and there at the00:24:17
very beginning of the war an incredible00:24:19
thing happened - a German submarine got00:24:21
there they were there if no one was expecting it and00:24:24
blew up a very large British00:24:26
ship after which they00:24:29
built Italian prisoners there. Well, such a00:24:33
dam, a dam so that boats would no longer00:24:36
pass through and there were00:24:40
such conditions00:24:42
in Germany or as in the German Union. It was not00:24:47
easy to build a very beautiful00:24:49
Italian church,00:24:52
excursions Italians come, but00:24:55
what are they talking about?00:25:05
Prisoners cannot be forced to work00:25:11
especially on military00:25:16
Oh, what about everyone there who was sitting in the city?00:25:21
That is, nothing was observed at all,00:25:24
but I’m not talking about what00:25:27
Germany did, of00:25:40
course, because we have the truth behind us. What is the strength of all of us, by the way, speaking of Germany, you know what00:25:42
struck me because that I deal quite a lot with the00:25:45
blockade of Leningrad and there is00:25:48
some kind of amazing00:25:51
cognitive dissonance there for me, it is connected with the fact00:25:55
that quite a large number of German00:25:57
soldiers They actually wrote home that00:26:01
now they will liberate this beautiful00:26:03
city from the Bolsheviks and this suffering00:26:06
nation from those draws Commissars and so00:26:10
on which Jews were not mentioned00:26:12
at the same time. We know that Hitler00:26:16
first decided the sky was a plant,00:26:20
then he decided not to take Leningrad at all00:26:23
and then he decided to starve it out. And00:26:26
this really was a conscious00:26:28
decision that actually has no00:26:31
analogues in the history of mankind00:26:34
because it happened that the cities were taken and00:26:37
compared00:26:38
so that it would circle around the city and00:26:41
starve it to death is completely realistic.00:26:44
This is a completely real operational00:26:46
plan of the German command. Another thing is00:26:48
that Stalin played this piano with00:26:52
four hands and Stalin helped a lot with this00:26:54
because the Germans couldn’t even00:26:57
arrange normal blockades of00:26:59
Leningrad, it was possible to transport food to it,00:27:01
another thing is that they decided that00:27:07
but I was struck by this dissonance on the00:27:10
one hand there was the German command00:27:12
And not only Hitler But00:27:14
Yoda and Guider and Lanterns who condemned00:27:17
Leningrad who quite seriously00:27:19
discussed that this would not suit Are there00:27:23
minefields around the city so that when the00:27:26
starving population runs out of the city00:27:28
it would explode not before our eyes00:27:30
because it demoralizes the German00:27:32
soldier or they were quite seriously00:27:35
discussing that when the population00:27:36
runs to order the German soldier00:27:39
to lie at him. True, he told her that the00:27:41
German soldier was indignant and with on the other00:27:44
hand, there were a large number of these same00:27:46
German soldiers who00:27:48
quite seriously thought that they would00:27:50
now liberate the00:27:53
German soldiers, they were not very dedicated to the plans that were00:27:56
being discussed here, but firstly, it00:27:59
was such a purely realistic00:28:01
decision, they wanted to take00:28:04
responsibility for such a number of00:28:06
people who you have to feed,00:28:09
manage, and so on, then00:28:15
when they were starved to death00:28:21
before the advent of firearms, but they00:28:26
could, yes, they tried to make tunnels. But this, of00:28:28
course, is all very difficult; there is always an approach.00:28:32
Therefore, in fact, the main ways to take a00:28:36
castle are this or betrayal.00:28:38
To come to an agreement with the commandant,00:28:44
this simply did not happen that often00:28:47
because00:28:49
and when they are all around00:28:52
the lita they are a00:28:54
famous story and00:29:04
they were kicked out at some point when I00:29:07
got tired of ending the besiegers let me00:29:09
pass and they sat in this ruble there they were00:29:12
dying of hunger00:29:14
but about this it’s just rare but naturally00:29:16
not at all not the same00:29:20
but again it seems to me what is most important is00:29:23
where the logic of the war lies00:29:26
because it will be00:29:31
published soon there is a00:29:34
very interesting British historian Mark the Masober00:29:37
who has a book How Hitler Ruled,00:29:41
here he looks at how in different00:29:44
parts of the conquered00:29:48
the administration was organized completely differently it was softer00:29:51
some included00:29:54
creating Puppets of the state there00:29:57
very interesting Depending on the different ones,00:30:00
and00:30:01
they also thought about whether to seize00:30:11
or separate Ukraine from Poland Why00:30:21
Yes, they were always00:30:24
playing out different options there. They wanted to00:30:26
populate Poland with Germans. But this00:30:29
turned all the resettlement into00:30:31
such chaos that everything00:30:34
was simply established there, these are all Hitlerite the executioners00:30:37
whom he sent to rule Poland00:30:39
were indignant because we can’t because they are coming. These00:30:43
we need to resettle everyone, we don’t understand anything,00:30:48
but in general it’s clear how in a variety of00:30:56
ways, more let’s say they immediately went and00:30:59
shot00:31:05
living space,00:31:07
you need living space00:31:09
accordingly, the more00:31:14
Yes, from the first days of the war there quite a00:31:19
lot of people00:31:21
were indignant at all these atrocities.00:31:24
But their main reason for their indignation was00:31:30
that what you said was that morale, well,00:31:33
discipline would fall apart, that was00:31:36
Napoleon’s. It’s clear that Napoleon did00:31:37
n’t even allow anyone to rob before Moscow because the00:31:41
robberies00:31:43
were falling apart,00:31:49
these were also the generals they said00:31:54
were those who In general, they were horrified by the00:31:58
main argument that was not given00:31:59
now; discipline will fall;00:32:05
we need to suppress these00:32:09
Earths; therefore, as a result, the toughest00:32:15
soldiers simply did not keep up to date with the matter;00:32:20
by the way, discipline. And why is this00:32:24
discipline the00:32:26
Russian Generals? In this war,00:32:30
apparently, they don’t really care,00:32:33
but well probably other goals, just like it00:32:36
was for the home of the troops, because00:32:41
well, firstly, it’s also not the Thieves and00:32:43
robbers themselves. I think so, as if they did not perceive themselves00:32:47
as a00:32:51
military bone and all that, and probably00:32:55
they themselves also appeared not only in the00:32:58
Lower Troubles, but also in secondly,00:33:02
cruelty towards the civilian00:33:04
population, this is considered a good00:33:07
psychological lever for suppressing the00:33:10
desire for resistance, which in my00:33:12
opinion00:33:15
causes even more desire.00:33:19
But this is also how it was used00:33:25
when you can see simply how the authorities00:33:30
allowed the opportunity00:33:53
I had, I00:33:57
had the feeling that this was such a00:33:59
policy Stalin of East Prussia that00:34:02
as if he wanted the population to disappear from it00:34:06
and as a result It was simply00:34:08
realizing what was waiting for him. Fled and 1500:34:12
million Germans fled and a very00:34:14
relatively small number00:34:15
remained were caught by the Red Army.00:34:18
That is, it was such an00:34:22
ethnic cleansing that people simply00:34:25
ran away after hearing about this,00:34:32
just not somehow they have already adapted to a00:34:35
new life,00:35:15
but this Don’t miss this, but00:35:22
someone is the head of an00:35:27
organization of sisters who help00:35:30
victims of rape. She said that00:35:35
sexual violence is not about love,00:35:42
it is necessary for humiliation.00:35:46
But this applies in the same way. I think00:35:48
far from it. only sexual violence00:35:51
because all these00:35:53
bullying shows who is00:35:57
in charge here00:35:59
so you understand I think that00:36:10
now00:36:14
but when it starts it00:36:35
just seemed to me that just speaking of00:36:38
training here We should rather not00:36:42
compare with East Prussia But just00:36:44
with the same Ukraine only in '4300:36:46
'44, because here we are entering a little into a00:36:49
related area, which I would00:36:52
call the effectiveness of violence,00:36:55
because Stalin00:36:58
used violence very effectively, very00:37:00
effectively intimidated people,00:37:03
maybe you can correct me because00:37:06
I know, as I understand it, they also did this,00:37:08
but I I was amazed how effective00:37:12
Stalin’s terror was, let’s say in00:37:14
Ukraine. When, for example, the so-called00:37:17
Partisans, who were actually00:37:19
red saboteurs, were00:37:21
first launched in heaps. Well, they didn’t even00:37:25
launch, most often it was the same00:37:26
Ukrainians who simply remained00:37:31
behind the front lines and in 41-42 they they00:37:36
simply surrendered in heaps to the Germans and00:37:38
did nothing because they believed that,00:37:40
firstly, Stalin would lose. And secondly,00:37:42
well, they were forced; it’s00:37:54
very00:37:56
effective because such00:37:59
Guerrillas come to the village,00:38:00
take a person, take him to the Guerrillas00:38:03
and say, “If you don’t become a partisan,00:38:05
then we will shoot your whole family and he00:38:09
becomes a partisan, and this is the same thing,00:38:11
what he did later, little of what00:38:13
the Viet Cong did later is really00:38:15
terrible effectiveness of violence by the way to the00:38:19
issue of humanizing the enemy but00:38:22
unfortunately yes of course And again, when a00:38:26
person already fits in,00:38:33
some personality changes occur00:38:35
and we usually always focus on00:38:38
post-traumatic syndrome,00:38:41
cruelty is all there, but I think that at the00:38:44
same time,00:38:47
strangely enough, such people also00:38:50
become more00:38:52
controllable up to a certain point Well,00:38:55
that is, if you are already killing everyone here,00:38:59
secondly, you are already used to following00:39:02
orders and you will carry out more00:39:04
and more and this is very successful convenient00:39:09
convenient lever00:39:12
personality decomposes accordingly it is00:39:14
easier00:39:20
because this is a very important mechanism00:39:22
No well this is how people who00:39:28
do00:39:29
terrible things00:39:31
even if they say that it’s all the same, do00:39:36
n’t care about it. Come on, why are there some00:39:42
interceptions of calls when a soldier calls00:39:46
his wife from Ukraine and she tells him00:39:50
that00:39:53
then come back, this is all this, maybe this is00:39:57
one layer and under this there still remains a00:40:01
severe trauma Because you did00:40:04
real things, a00:40:06
flawed person is00:40:09
easier to00:40:11
manipulate, now00:40:14
I’m on the other side of00:40:21
Charlie Manson’s biography and when he00:40:24
recruited girls from his community, it’s very00:40:29
clear that he chose flawed people,00:40:33
probably not educational ones, didn’t buy into00:40:36
him00:40:38
but he also wandered around California with a bunch of00:40:42
some girls who were there Typical I don’t00:40:46
know smoked weed or something else there were00:40:49
a lot of them and he would immediately react to00:40:53
those from some00:40:56
family tragedy An orphan with a difficult childhood00:41:01
experienced a Tragedy he immediately reacted to them00:41:05
reacts and drags them to him00:41:09
and how they were devoted to Him, how they00:41:12
perceived him simply as a Savior despite the fact that it’s00:41:16
not that he00:41:19
created very comfortable conditions for them there, he00:41:22
treated them horribly. This is such a syndrome00:41:25
and the Istanbul syndrome is00:41:28
obviously simpler00:41:32
evoke in those whose personality already00:41:41
Here is another example, the famous psychologist,00:41:45
when they brought him to Dakha, they00:41:48
immediately put him on his knees, beat him, and so00:41:53
on, and he began to analyze all this00:41:57
points of view and came to the conclusion that a00:42:01
lot of Nazi behavior, not even dialogues,00:42:07
works for the will of death then there is a00:42:11
black shape of a skull and so on00:42:18
death is, in general, also the destruction of00:42:20
your personality For a normal00:42:22
functioning Personality this is not00:42:24
typical you want to live You want to00:42:27
stand and you are not elevated to a state of00:42:31
some kind of insignificant00:42:35
and then00:42:37
you see these Lord above you00:42:45
and it seems to me that in the army00:42:57
these are people,00:43:00
not because they were all monsters,00:43:08
but if you are flawed, it is00:43:11
more difficult for you00:43:15
to protect your personality,00:43:18
to prove yourself00:43:20
and then it is easier for you to obey00:43:24
But something like this00:43:27
then I have a question too We are moving a little00:43:30
away from the rest of the topic, but what will happen00:43:32
to everyone these people who when they00:43:34
return they actually return00:43:37
Yes, not to mention the fact that they00:43:39
specially take prisoners there and such a00:43:42
theoretical question. I always thought that00:43:44
everyone says that a soldier returned from the war,00:43:47
he has post-traumatic disorder.00:43:50
I thought why didn’t I read anything about00:43:52
post-traumatic disorder payments00:43:56
they had an interview during the war that00:43:59
each of them had Julius Caesar and each of them had to00:44:02
have a traumatic disorder,00:44:05
this is a very interesting question. Maybe it00:44:09
was, but on the other hand, Well, this is a00:44:12
completely different personality structure. These are00:44:14
completely different ideas,00:44:16
but you know,00:44:18
the personality in ours was considered understanding00:44:22
was formed only in the Renaissance00:44:24
And before that everything was different00:44:33
in the sense Yes, in00:44:35
the sense of like 3000 years ago They are not00:44:38
individuals00:44:43
but there is something else00:44:52
about the war of 81200:44:56
post-traumatic disorder was00:44:58
discovered by the00:44:59
military in fact in the twentieth century Does00:45:03
this mean00:45:08
And by the way nothing at all,00:45:26
but I have a hypothesis, it’s not very00:45:29
scientific, but it lies in the fact that00:45:32
post-traumatic disorder00:45:34
occurs primarily in people00:45:37
from a prosperous world. That is,00:45:40
when you are00:45:41
tall, you are the only boy in an00:45:43
American family, you have milk from a supermarket and00:45:47
then they sent you to Vietnam, this is where00:45:49
you got00:45:53
post-traumatic disorder at the age of 23. And if00:45:55
you, like a Roman, from the age of five saw guts00:46:01
dragging along the street. So you grew up. This00:46:05
corresponds to your idea of00:46:07
how life works,00:46:09
you know when we say this is one of the00:46:15
crimes that are against humanity00:46:45
They are endocrine, they are experiencing the00:46:48
absolutely incredible, although they are already in00:46:51
some African village in the Congo,00:46:54
they live among this and still00:46:59
just like What a00:47:02
terrifying post-traumatic00:47:05
disorder did those who returned to00:47:07
the Union after the00:47:10
Second World War have00:47:12
and this is recorded more or less00:47:17
because that they immediately began to clamp it down and00:47:19
immediately concreted it in.00:47:24
But they tried to shout out something to00:47:27
say something for the first time there for several00:47:29
months while it was still possible and you can see00:47:32
how terrible it was for them and very characteristically00:47:38
they refused to talk about what happened in00:47:41
the war, these regular rats who00:47:47
these went yes And those who were in the war are basically a00:47:58
classic sign of the00:48:01
romantic syndrome when you can’t. It00:48:05
seems to me that this is everywhere00:48:08
because00:48:10
no matter what kind of life you live, the war corrects you.00:48:17
But then I have to say. Probably we have00:48:21
already By the way, we’ve been talking for quite a long time and00:48:23
We have moved far away from the Irsurian attitude00:48:25
towards war. In addition to the fact that we have established that00:48:27
Putin is not a knight. But it was possible, it00:48:34
was possible not to start.00:48:37
And I just Oddly enough, you00:48:40
said that your00:48:42
example of the crusades really made me think,00:48:45
when really it is00:48:49
ideology forced to cut out00:48:53
Jerusalem and everything else that, as it were, that the00:48:57
European Knights usually, let’s say,00:49:00
did it wrong, that is, they did not do it00:49:03
in relation to high-ranking00:49:04
opponents, only as we already said in00:49:06
relation to low-ranking ones,00:49:10
but accordingly, this00:49:13
will probably be the last question why00:49:15
we it has already been partially touched upon, but nevertheless,00:49:19
why did Putin conceive this war as a00:49:22
war of terror? I even added one more00:49:25
thing because we already discussed the uproar, they didn’t00:49:29
give as yesterday we discussed with00:49:31
Professor Nightingale about what00:49:33
was actually ready. The truce in March00:49:36
22 and Putin apparently he wanted it and00:49:41
it fell flat because when00:49:42
Putin’s troops retreated from Bucci there were00:49:45
corpses left on the streets. That is, he00:49:48
shot himself in the foot and as a result00:49:50
now has a war which of course does not00:49:53
contribute to, let’s00:49:54
say, his long-term perspective00:49:58
and why did he conceive this war as a war00:50:03
terror, in addition to the fact that yes, this00:50:08
contributes to control. Well, firstly, it00:50:12
seems to me that he thought that they would give00:50:15
it to Kiev in three days. So I think00:50:18
that initially nothing00:50:20
like that was supposed, but flowers, bouquets of joy were supposed to be there.00:50:24
Well, yes, there’s probably some kind of I00:50:26
would object to political opponents00:50:30
there;00:50:32
they had lists from the very beginning, that’s the point:00:50:35
among other things,00:50:37
in the chaos they shot people on lists;00:50:41
another thing is that there were also00:50:44
some special forces there who believed that these were00:50:47
Scouts, now we’ll find a scout, and00:50:51
so on00:51:00
went to fight00:51:07
Well, this is true, but you must agree,00:51:09
you know, therefore, what needs to be done with a00:51:12
defeated enemy, shooting is clear. What00:51:14
else are negotiations or something? That’s the fact00:51:17
that it will get so out of00:51:20
control00:51:21
that these robberies and tortures will begin,00:51:25
and so on. Well, they didn’t give the order00:51:29
to rob the00:51:30
orders hard cleaning And then they00:51:33
calmly watched it had already arisen, as it00:51:36
seems to me, it00:51:38
could have been predicted in the process, but no one00:51:41
thought that it had arisen in the process and they considered00:51:44
it something harmful bad so that, on the00:51:47
contrary, it would be good We will now intimidate And00:51:50
initially they did not assume, as00:51:53
it seems to me, that they they're marching on their feet. There are00:51:59
people standing here, I don't know, who came from Donetsk with00:52:02
bouquets00:52:13
[music]00:52:18
by the way, on the issue of professional00:52:20
military men. You said it right, he's00:52:22
a KGB officer. They're not professional military men. The00:52:25
heir of aristocrats and generals.00:52:28
The heir of executioners,00:52:30
but what kind of heirs of aristocrats are we?00:52:33
General Severik,00:52:35
that's all me, in principle, yes no mint, yes,00:52:40
aristocrats can also do a lot of things,00:52:42
of course, but they have some00:52:45
ideas, so I often think00:52:48
differently about this. I had to choose a00:52:51
piece from the film Titanic the other day and I00:52:54
remembered that someone reasonably remarked00:52:57
that Cameron there are simple people who are00:53:01
third class they are traveling they are good00:53:03
aristocrats, mostly bastards Although it00:53:05
is known that on the Titanic there was a panic that finished off00:53:09
women children00:53:21
they have different rules00:53:28
our teams00:53:33
[music]00:53:36
those who stood00:53:48
Well or this People for whom this is a00:53:51
social elevator have00:53:53
risen I don’t want to completely offend00:53:57
ordinary people but this people who00:54:01
found a home for themselves in the army, an00:54:06
opportunity to live, and so on. This is a00:54:09
family,00:54:11
this family was built for them; the00:54:33
Ukrainian army was able to remake itself.00:54:39
I would say that, in general, respect00:54:43
for the enemy begins with respect for00:54:45
your own soldier,00:54:47
if you waste your own soldier like00:54:49
cannon fodder,00:54:51
the enemy it’s still somehow00:54:53
[music]00:55:14
But in fact, it’s just now when the00:55:17
Ukrainian offensive is unfolding. We00:55:19
see that the main rhythmic motif, excuse the00:55:22
tautology, is the leitmotif,00:55:24
or is it already the leitmotif, yes? And what the main motive00:55:29
is exactly what kind of false one is not thrown by00:55:34
the soldiers,00:55:35
that is, this is a fundamentally different approach00:55:42
Of course, they00:55:46
won’t be ready for battle either, but I would like to hope that00:55:50
somehow the00:55:51
Ukrainian situation will come on,00:55:55
come on, I’m sure that Putin00:55:58
built his Tarot on this too,00:56:00
we won’t take off, so we’ll swim because00:56:01
hatred is such a thing that rarely00:56:03
remains without reciprocity If you are00:56:06
engaged terror, then somehow we00:56:10
started with this, that a chivalrous attitude00:56:13
is possible only under one condition:00:56:18
It has always00:56:21
read00:56:24
wars like this,00:56:38
in particular, this was manifested in the fact that00:56:42
the tank00:56:44
But they were huge ethnic Germans there00:56:54
and writes00:56:56
that the00:56:58
hatred that00:57:03
for the Germans turned out to be a justification for their00:57:07
aggression00:57:12
This is just such a wonderful00:57:17
psychological thing, but it’s00:57:28
not a question. No matter00:57:30
who, I don’t know what kind of drone00:57:34
would fly into a Moscow house and I’m not the00:57:38
person who will rejoice at this00:57:39
or in Belgorodsky or somewhere else, but it’s00:57:42
absolutely clear to me that no matter what happens but he00:57:46
is to blame in this way00:57:48
because00:57:51
Then the last question Everyone laughed a lot00:57:54
at his speech when he00:57:56
said that more, more everything00:57:59
means he has some piece that is not the same as the one00:58:01
that Stalin gave And it seemed to me that00:58:05
this was also an attempt to arouse00:58:08
national hatred in Europe in which, by the way, he00:58:10
really succeeded in because Europe00:58:13
forgot after the Second World War,00:58:15
it paid a very long expensive price and00:58:18
tried to forget this national00:58:21
hatred, and not only that Putin00:58:24
excites it wherever possible at every00:58:27
convenient moment, so he decided. But in00:58:30
Europe, isn’t it possible? This00:58:33
to turn things around, maybe the Germans will also remember00:58:36
how the Czechs kicked them out of Sudets,00:58:40
Czech Republic, how what the Germans are doing to them during the Second00:58:44
World War, the Poles Dance, the Germans will remember00:58:48
Dansik, which means the Poles will also remember rushing.00:58:51
I think he’s counting on this00:58:56
and I wouldn’t attribute such00:58:59
complex, far-reaching plans to Putin00:59:02
I almost don’t believe in him,00:59:05
thought out, but the fact that his evil00:59:09
actions00:59:11
bring to the surface is that00:59:14
it was all dormant and the Germans, it00:59:19
seems to me, remember the Czech Republic, the Poles, especially the00:59:23
Estonians. But I didn’t think about how the crisis begins.00:59:40
Well, back the goods. Sorry if to our00:59:45
listeners Sorry if we somehow I00:59:48
honestly thought that we would have a more00:59:50
Academic conversation that we were somehow00:59:52
on the same level00:59:55
No, not necessarily the same You00:59:59
were talking about Chateau Gaillard the same thing01:00:01
happened in the stake in the 14th century when the01:00:05
French were also besieging01:00:06
Sorry the British besieged right there,01:00:10
drove the inhabitants out of the city and they were so01:00:13
between01:00:14
[music] the01:00:15
besiegers besieged so from hunger and01:00:19
froze01:00:20
so from hunger and died I just01:00:23
really thought that we would have a01:00:24
more Academic conversation We will be more in the01:00:27
Bronze Age of the Middle Ages but01:00:30
what happened01:00:47
there collapse I would love this01:00:50
very thing01:00:56
so that you want the Bronze Age01:01:00
the next day01:01:03
for me the mystery of the catastrophe of the Bronze01:01:06
Age developed developed and then once01:01:09
and a rollback throughout the Mediterranean Sea, it01:01:13
really intrigues me that what happened there in the middle of the01:01:15
two sides of the millennium BC It01:01:18
seems to me Now 180s01:01:22
disaster incident to the people of the sea you01:01:26
1180s are01:01:29
so far01:01:32
from what worries me that it’s even awkward01:01:38
but it seems to me just let’s have01:01:42
5 minutes01:01:43
Bronze Age disaster I have01:01:46
a hypothesis Because01:01:47
because I believe that the death of palace01:01:51
civilizations These were all socializations that were01:01:53
actually based. So01:01:56
the State came and discovered all the01:01:58
joys of socialism because all these01:02:01
states existed. But01:02:04
Putin would simply be happy.01:02:06
Well, if we don’t take the case of Egypt, it01:02:09
was just big, basically it’s a city.01:02:11
Well yes kingdom Well01:02:14
where are all the artisans at the court where everything is01:02:18
distributed Why did they01:02:19
produce so many of these notes here Because01:02:22
because everything was counted I’m not talking01:02:25
about the Minoan Civilization but this is01:02:27
true a little Previously we just know01:02:30
how much01:02:31
coriander they allocated to someone Karl and now01:02:37
they mean behind the bronze in the literal01:02:39
sense of the word with their chariots, by the way,01:02:42
with their professional01:02:45
troops, and then nimble01:02:49
Barbarians with swords appeared from the other side of the sea and01:02:53
which these ossified military01:02:56
structures really brought down not01:02:59
because they were somehow01:03:00
coordinated but because they were01:03:04
very sweet,01:03:08
sweet prey that resisted01:03:11
poorly,01:03:13
and when you slaughtered it, this chicken had01:03:18
big Golden eggs01:03:21
Well, maybe in general01:03:43
But besides the fact that, as the01:03:46
Athaulf of the nephew01:03:48
who robbed Rome said about this, it is unfair that the01:03:50
Romans,01:03:51
who mean so soft and have01:03:54
such wonderful vessels, we are Germanic01:03:57
people Brave, proud backs on earth and01:04:00
we don’t have such Jugs with beautiful01:04:01
faces, so besides this consideration01:04:05
And this is the Bronze Age, this was the era of the01:04:10
first total collapse of socialism in the history of mankind. It seems to01:04:16
me that there is, of01:04:20
course,01:04:26
thank you very much.01:04:41
No, I just like the fact that I don’t01:04:44
I see it has passed convincingly for an explanation,01:04:49
but naturally the volcano on Santorini is the01:04:55
climate of some such things, I’m not sure01:04:59
what when it comes because01:05:02
later times show us they come01:05:04
I don’t know wild Arabs come out of the01:05:08
desert of the Arabian Peninsula and destroy01:05:11
civilizations and after a generation they01:05:14
absorb it and themselves, and now, on the ruins01:05:17
of the former, a01:05:19
sophisticated, interesting civilization arises:01:05:23
the Mongols capture China and the Chinese01:05:26
create a01:05:27
completely excellent control system,01:05:31
a lot of other things. But these are somehow01:05:35
wanted. I do01:05:39
n’t presume to judge well, we can try01:05:44
next time. Really,01:05:45
discuss this if our listeners start01:05:48
calling it interesting because it’s also a01:05:50
story that01:05:52
worries me extremely because well, not01:05:56
often. It happened in the history of mankind01:05:58
that within literally 10 years all the01:06:00
largest centers of the then01:06:02
Mediterranean civilization from01:06:05
Cyprus to the01:06:08
Hittites, but only Egypt survived01:06:10
a little, you will note that the chronology01:06:23
is good,01:06:25
thank you very much it was Yulia Latynina01:06:28
and Tamara Edelman and we discussed,01:06:31
we started with a chivalrous attitude towards01:06:35
the enemy, but we have gone far enough,01:06:38
come again,01:06:51
you’re just already switching off, and I’ll just01:06:55
urge our listeners, firstly, to01:06:57
subscribe to Tamara Natalyevna’s channel,01:07:00
which has links in the description, and01:07:03
secondly, to subscribe to our01:07:05
own modest channel and also01:07:06
share links to this broadcast and01:07:09
like it And of course Come tomorrow to01:07:12
listen to Stanislav Belkovsky as01:07:15
always with us at this time on TuesdaysDescription:
Тамара Эйдельман. Рыцари и нелюдь. При каких условиях и в каких культурах противники относятся друг к другу по-рыцарски, а при каких, наоборот,. демонизируют друг друга? Беседа с Юлией Латыниной. 00:00 – Начало 01:13 – Что такое рыцарское поведение? 05:13 – Эйдельман: «Никакого рыцарского поведения нет» 10:11 – Гомер и этика войны. Можно ли судить о нормах прошлого по эпосу? 15:33 – Может ли быть рыцарское отношение в эпоху массовых армий? 18:45 – Монголы не щадили никого? 19:44 – Путин и монгольский тип войны 25:40 – О блокаде Ленинграда 32:21 – Жестокость российской армии 36:36 – Об эффективности насилия на войне 40:19 – «Я читала биографию Чарльза Мэнсона». Как ПТСР влияет на дисциплину в обществе 43:28 – Что будет с призывниками, вернувшимися с войны? 45:27 – Откуда берется ПТСР? 48:40 – Зачем Путину террор? 55:14 – Ненависть всегда взаимна 57:55 – Речь Путина о Польше 59:45 – Загадка Бронзового века 01:06:24 – Конец Подписывайтесь на канал Тамары Эйдельман https://www.youtube.com/@UCNYejKoEJ84iGgXPwTBkCCg А также: "Диктаторы обмана" Сергея Гуриева и Даниэла Трейсмана на https://babook.org/store/50-ebook Расшифровка на сайте "Эхо"Расшифровка на сайте "Эхо" Донаты каналу: Перевод на счет организации: LATYNINAORG MTÜ IBAN EE421010220274614225 SWIFT EEUHEE2X Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/latyninatv Paypal: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/latynina Boosty: https://boosty.to/latyninatv Ko-fi https://ko-fi.com/latynina1 Bitcoin: bc1qltgykx93plrpp32ygktl4srzz4z5sa467ppafq bitcoincash: qq2uhptcx7qqxvtpgqs2spca6urgwuckxsc79vd39j Algo: LXHCP5VLSULJTYNK3QXBXYA3YQ5RT7G3UKGKY4IDFAYGIKTDIO3SONPNNM Кроме этого, пожертвовать на развитие этого канала можно, зайдя на его главную страницу и нажав на кнопочку с синей головкой, расположенной справа вверху рядом с плашкой YL-сайт. Пожертвовать на развитие этого канала с карточки можно, зайдя на сайт https://latynina.tv/, и там вверху слева висит крупная кнопка донейт. Мой личный фейсбук https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser мой твиттер https://twitter.com/YLatynina Телеграмм - https://t.me/Ylatynina подписывайтесь Остальное ведет команда. Инстаграм Латыниной https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser тикток здесь https://www.tiktok.com/@yulialatynina (подписывайтесь) (Ведет Даша) страница в фейсбуке со всеми ссылками на видео и пр. https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser Наш сайт https://www.latynina.tv/ Официальный сайт: https://www.latynina.tv/ Статьи в Новой Газете (Европа): https://novayagazeta.eu/authors/13 Каналом занимаются: Содержание – Юлия Латынина Техническая поддержка – Дарья Воронцова
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