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00:00:00
hello everyone i'm karen cho anchor for00:00:02
cnbc thank you so much for joining us00:00:04
today for this important session we00:00:07
welcome all west stakeholders as well as00:00:09
we turn the spotlight on cyber security00:00:12
cyber attacks as you know are not new00:00:14
but the threat level has increased as we00:00:16
think about a changing digital and00:00:18
geopolitical landscape00:00:20
a huge shift to remote working during00:00:22
the pandemic more data moved to the00:00:24
cloud a rise in e-commerce and financial00:00:27
transactions online more and more00:00:29
connected devices and an increased00:00:32
geopolitical threat with the war in00:00:34
ukraine00:00:35
over the next 45 minutes of this session00:00:37
we'll discuss how leaders can prepare00:00:39
for future cyber attacks00:00:41
just a quick housekeeping matter if you00:00:43
do want to connect with this debate00:00:45
hashtag wef22 is the one that you can00:00:48
use we'll also open up the discussion in00:00:51
about 20 minutes time so be ready with00:00:53
some questions00:00:54
let me introduce you to our panelists00:00:56
today jurgen stock secretary general for00:00:59
interpol france00:01:00
josephine teo minister for00:01:02
communications and information of00:01:04
singapore00:01:06
chandra prakesh gurnani who is managing00:01:08
director ceo of tech mahindra and robert00:01:11
lee ceo and founder dragos from the00:01:14
states00:01:15
well first up jurgen let me turn it to00:01:17
you00:01:18
the world economic forum global security00:01:20
outlook report indicates that cyber00:01:23
attacks over the past year we're up to00:01:25
125 percent00:01:28
how do you assess the cyber security00:01:30
risk as we now also weigh up the threat00:01:32
of state-sponsored attacks00:01:35
yeah thank you very much i think there's00:01:36
no reason to sound the all clear00:01:40
the statistics are suffering from the00:01:43
fact that of course still many of the00:01:46
companies many of the victims are not00:01:48
reporting the incidents to the police or00:01:51
to national00:01:52
agencies so we are still struggling that00:01:54
all the information maybe comes from the00:01:57
roughly between five and ten percent of00:01:58
the cases that are reported um to law00:02:00
enforcement i think there is no doubt00:02:03
that the threat is increasing00:02:05
we see criminal groups continuing00:02:08
acting in a more sophisticated way00:02:11
the way in which they organize it00:02:12
themselves is very different from the00:02:14
traditional mafia style you know where00:02:16
people know each other maybe same family00:02:18
same region00:02:20
here it's like the yellow pages in the00:02:22
internet where you offer your00:02:23
specialization they connect for a00:02:25
specific attack and then they they00:02:28
change uh which also makes it for law00:02:30
enforcement even more important on the00:02:32
one hand so this is becoming more00:02:35
sophisticated more difficult also00:02:37
because it's global by nature and of00:02:39
course law enforcement we still operate00:02:41
mainly in our national jurisdictions on00:02:44
the other hand i think the major risk is00:02:46
still not that much it's security in a00:02:49
way of00:02:50
technical issues it's human failure that00:02:53
opens the door for criminals to attack00:02:55
the systems to take00:02:57
data hostage00:02:59
one victimization a second victimization00:03:02
with the data and as the world is00:03:05
becoming more connected we have been00:03:07
discussing that here the web a number of00:03:09
times the challenge is still how do we00:03:12
connect the various dots that need to be00:03:14
connected that allow us to share00:03:16
information in real time to allow us to00:03:18
be prepared for the next attack which00:03:20
will come it's only a matter of time so00:03:22
that that is primarily the challenge if00:03:24
i can just follow quickly what is the00:03:26
link between state-sponsored cyber00:03:29
attacks and the criminal underworld00:03:31
i mean first of all i have to say that00:03:32
interpol is focusing on criminal00:03:34
activity so those perhaps 80 percent00:03:37
where criminals are behind that are00:03:38
still interested in money in in data00:03:41
the risk here is what we also see in00:03:44
traditional crime areas that00:03:46
weapons that are used today by00:03:49
the military for instance maybe a couple00:03:51
of years later will show up in the dark00:03:53
net and will be used by by criminals for00:03:56
even more sophisticated attacks that is00:03:58
a major concern in the physical world00:04:00
weapons that are used on the battlefield00:04:02
and tomorrow will be used by organized00:04:03
crime groups but the same applies for00:04:06
the for the digital00:04:08
weapons that maybe today are used by the00:04:10
military developed by military and00:04:12
tomorrow will be available00:04:14
uh for criminals that's quite a warning00:04:16
isn't it minister let me turn to you00:04:18
late last year singapore updated its00:04:20
cyber security strategy in particular to00:04:22
take a more proactive stance to protect00:04:25
critical infrastructure there's plenty00:04:27
of reasons why singapore would be a00:04:30
target with sanctions against russia00:04:32
that you joined the city state is a00:04:34
growing hub for international finance00:04:36
and business attracting more and more00:04:38
business away from hong kong for00:04:40
instance it just gives a sense how you00:04:42
perceive the threat over the next 1200:04:44
months to singapore00:04:46
right well first of all let me say that00:04:48
it's an honor to be on this panel we00:04:49
have a veteran in law enforcement and00:04:52
we've got00:04:53
very prominent business leaders that00:04:55
provide a range of00:04:57
you know cyber security and i.t services00:04:59
to so many different businesses um let00:05:02
me just share in a perspective you know00:05:05
as a minister who really00:05:07
would like to see in the short term00:05:09
a more solid00:05:11
recovery for00:05:12
our economies and in the long term would00:05:15
really like to prepare our people to00:05:17
succeed in the digital age00:05:20
it's probably00:05:22
right for us to not try and think of00:05:24
cyber risk in very discreet terms00:05:26
because they are interconnected with a00:05:29
whole00:05:30
range of risks geopolitical risks00:05:33
technology bifurcation00:05:35
the russian00:05:37
ukraine conflict00:05:38
which has as a result created economic00:05:41
turmoil questions about00:05:44
energy security00:05:46
and even you know just plain old supply00:05:49
chain disruptions00:05:50
all of these i think have got the00:05:52
potential to spill over into cyber space00:05:56
now one key trend that we have been00:05:58
watching out for is exactly as jurgen00:06:00
talked about which is that cyber00:06:03
criminals in terms of their level of00:06:04
sophistication they seem to be catching00:06:07
up with state-sponsored apt actors00:06:10
and we are observing that actually even00:06:13
this has become a natural national00:06:16
security question because critical00:06:17
informa information infrastructure can00:06:20
come under threat00:06:21
and i think one problem that we face is00:06:24
that this is growing at a very fast00:06:27
speed00:06:28
this underground ecosystem that jurgen00:06:31
you know outlined is extremely lucrative00:06:34
and it is self-funding00:06:36
so anytime that you have capabilities00:06:39
that are existing in a system that is00:06:41
self-funding and makes a lot of money00:06:43
you can expect it to grow00:06:45
and i think this is an area that really00:06:46
demands urgent attention a lot of00:06:50
international cooperation to reign in00:06:52
a second area of risk i would talk about00:06:54
is that00:06:56
you know there has been just rampant00:06:58
exploitation of supply chain00:07:01
as well as um00:07:03
you know all kinds of software00:07:05
vulnerabilities a third party00:07:07
um that are coming through you know to a00:07:10
lot of businesses no business00:07:12
you know can can operate without using00:07:15
some00:07:16
third-party software00:07:18
and there used to be a relationship of00:07:20
trust that existed between the clients00:07:23
and the managed services provider and00:07:26
this trust is being undermined and when00:07:29
you have an absence of trust you know00:07:30
how can you continue to digitalize your00:07:32
businesses at the rate that would bring00:07:35
about great benefits so this i think is00:07:38
a long-standing problem that00:07:40
isn't going away quite so soon and00:07:43
let me just close off by saying that00:07:45
there are two associated risks that00:07:48
we would you know characterize not00:07:50
necessarily a cyber risk one has to do00:07:53
with the fact that the threat surfaces00:07:55
are expanding so quickly00:07:56
and there is a real danger that we don't00:07:58
have enough talent don't have enough00:08:00
capabilities to deal with them00:08:02
a second is really the problem of what i00:08:06
call distractedness00:08:07
there are so many problems that business00:08:09
leaders are dealing with00:08:11
and00:08:12
if you know it comes at the cost of00:08:14
de-prioritizing cyber security then i00:08:17
think this is going to have um you know00:08:20
a lot of long-term consequences that we00:08:22
will have to pay for and they will hurt00:08:24
us so i would just pause right there00:08:26
minister thank you and i'm glad you00:08:27
brought up the supply chain because one00:08:29
of the reports in recent days was about00:08:32
connected farm devices being hacked and00:08:35
if we think about the food shortage we00:08:36
have at this stage how it's proving00:08:38
inflationary across populations you can00:08:40
see why cyber attacks and this00:08:42
particular area could be a major issue00:08:45
on that note chandra if i can ask you00:08:47
about the business community and the00:08:49
reaction here because we know that00:08:50
there's been a huge digital acceleration00:08:52
during the pandemic there's reputational00:08:54
risk from cyber security financial risk00:08:57
as well we've also witnessed on the back00:08:58
of several attacks how do you perceive00:09:01
the threat for the next year or so00:09:05
i00:09:06
think when you step back00:09:10
first is00:09:13
you know00:09:14
the dependence of technology00:09:17
on00:09:19
some industries00:09:21
is lot more evident00:09:24
you know you saw the00:09:27
power sector the utility sector the00:09:29
telecom00:09:30
healthcare now with the during the00:09:33
pandemic even online education00:09:36
and00:09:37
in a lot of ways i mean00:09:39
i'm sure the honourable minister would00:09:41
agree00:09:42
the e-government services00:09:44
the dependence on technology is so high00:09:47
that00:09:48
we need to be cautious that00:09:51
if that is the dependence then you treat00:09:53
it as an infrastructure00:09:55
and if it is an infrastructure you need00:09:57
to00:09:58
budget00:09:59
time money and energy for maintaining00:10:02
that infrastructure00:10:04
i think when i look out00:10:07
i think00:10:08
many corporates00:10:11
have taken00:10:14
a responsibility00:10:16
to look out for the country00:10:18
attacks they look to look out for the00:10:20
dark web00:10:22
attacks they look at00:10:23
individual attacks00:10:25
but the question is00:10:27
how often do you maintain00:10:31
my personal00:10:33
read is that the board rooms become very00:10:36
very active00:10:38
whenever there is a similar industry00:10:41
attack00:10:42
so if a colonial pipeline is attacked00:10:45
suddenly the all the oil companies00:10:47
around the world will become active00:10:49
because they all want to know what00:10:51
happened in that case study and are we00:10:53
safe00:10:56
similarly00:10:58
the scope of audit the scope of audit00:11:03
many companies only assume00:11:06
saving their servers or networks00:11:09
or the end user devices in their00:11:12
premises are good enough00:11:14
but the reality is the ecosystem is much00:11:18
bigger00:11:19
so one of the banks that we work with00:11:23
we were00:11:24
engaged to audit but the audit was very00:11:27
specific like banks like to be very00:11:29
specific00:11:30
it was the server network and their00:11:32
premises00:11:34
and we said no that's not enough00:11:36
and we had to prove it to them through00:11:38
the law firm that they engaged00:11:40
that on a friday evening00:11:43
one human00:11:44
this is the point uh00:11:46
jurgen was making00:11:48
that it is mainly the human failure00:11:51
one human00:11:53
you know picking up a phishing email00:11:55
brought the whole the system down00:11:58
so i think we need to be cautious that00:12:01
our vulnerabilities are now outside the00:12:04
system also00:12:06
and when we do ethical hacking a we00:12:09
should do it more frequently and number00:12:11
two is we need to take into account the00:12:13
ecosystem00:12:15
that's a good point that you make there00:12:16
are red flags when it's an external00:12:18
contact but when it's somebody you work00:12:20
with day in day out who sends that email00:12:23
it does provide a different level of00:12:25
rest doesn't it robert i want to turn to00:12:27
you i think most of us bill is always00:12:28
someone who has greater i.t experience00:12:30
than us in the room you're the exception00:12:32
you're probably the resident tech expert00:12:35
very interesting background as well you00:12:36
won the first or the first to00:12:38
investigate the 2015-201600:12:40
attacks on critical infrastructure in00:12:42
ukraine now as we have a physical war00:12:45
playing out on the ground with00:12:46
devastating consequences just draw the00:12:48
links for us to what could start as00:12:51
something that looks like it's just an00:12:52
attack on the global community but it's00:12:54
very much focused on a specific area how00:12:57
do you look at that now in hindsight and00:12:59
look forward to the risk yeah absolutely00:13:01
and i think00:13:03
most business leaders most executives00:13:04
most board members they have these cyber00:13:06
security conversations00:13:08
the awareness as we were talking about00:13:09
before is very very high00:13:11
but we still very much have a focus on00:13:13
i.t even when like my skill set as an00:13:15
example i really don't know anything00:13:17
about your i.t i know a lot about your00:13:18
operations technology the control00:13:20
systems how a power system works how a00:13:22
manufacturing system works um but most00:13:24
companies when they talk about cyber00:13:26
security spend more time on the website00:13:27
than they do on the gas turbine system00:13:29
but the stuff that actually generates00:13:30
you revenue the things that actually00:13:31
have national security impact the things00:13:32
that have safety impact the things that00:13:34
have environmental impact it's the00:13:35
operations side it's all the control00:13:37
systems those were never really00:13:38
connected before00:13:40
they started getting connected in mass00:13:41
probably about 15 years ago people still00:13:43
think that they're disconnected now00:13:44
they're not save yourself the audit00:13:45
they're connected00:13:47
but because they're getting connected at00:13:49
the same time the digital economy is00:13:50
going the direction that it's going and00:13:52
at the same time that our systems are00:13:54
ongoing a massive massive change00:13:55
especially as we move towards a more00:13:57
sustainable and equitable like energy00:13:58
system as an example00:14:00
we are operating on a little bit of a00:14:02
knife's edge and so we've got00:14:03
adversaries that know how to target00:14:05
operation systems they've included00:14:07
engineers with their cyber security00:14:08
people we've got systems that are more00:14:10
connected than ever and something like a00:14:12
disruption on an electric system years00:14:14
ago it would probably have been okay00:14:16
more fear than actual impact in some00:14:18
cases you can design the big ones but we00:14:21
make safe and reliable infrastructure in00:14:23
the industrial community all the time00:14:24
but take for example the the sort of00:14:27
green energy change an electric system00:14:29
as an example now00:14:30
is operating in such a way that power is00:14:32
on demand in real time for the lowest00:14:34
kilowatt hour00:14:36
so00:14:37
previously if you caused one company to00:14:39
go down i could have enough backup00:14:41
energy on the system and we have the00:14:43
concept of inertia you have big spinning00:14:45
equipment big spinning equipment and00:14:47
inertia sort of slows down the effects00:14:49
of things and you can respond but now00:14:51
that we're going towards wind energy00:14:52
solar etc it's all inverter based00:14:55
resource it's direct current i don't00:14:57
have big spinning equipment much anymore00:14:59
now i don't have that inertia in the00:15:00
system now if i have an impact on an00:15:02
electric system i don't have the backup00:15:04
power and i don't have the time to00:15:05
respond and it's more connected and00:15:06
there's more adversaries that understand00:15:08
it that's not a good place to be so when00:15:10
we look at cyber security00:15:12
of critical infrastructure it's00:15:13
important for everybody to take away the00:15:15
fact that the critical part of critical00:15:17
infrastructure are those operations00:15:19
technology systems of course we want you00:15:20
to do the iet stuff as well um but if00:15:22
we're going to talk national security00:15:23
especially we really got to put a focus00:15:25
there and i would say probably the sort00:15:28
of the closing comment on that one is00:15:30
governments do have to be very aware of00:15:31
the difference between business risk and00:15:33
national security risk if it's business00:15:35
risk companies should be paying for00:15:36
themselves and doing that work but if00:15:38
it's a national security risk there's00:15:39
got to be support and potentially even00:15:41
resourcing from the federal government00:15:42
so that entity actually takes it and00:15:44
does something with it if i can just00:15:45
follow up on the point of whether there00:15:47
is a a pre-ukraine versus post-ukraine00:15:50
moment for the industry here and whether00:15:52
companies countries that have joined00:15:54
sanctions or taking a move to exit00:15:56
russia and doing operations there are00:15:57
they at a greater level of risk now00:16:00
versus before for sure we've absolutely00:16:02
seen00:16:03
countries that have come out with00:16:04
sanctions countries that have been00:16:06
public in discussion uh00:16:08
countries that are connected to that00:16:09
system we see them getting targeted much00:16:11
more and so there's absolutely a00:16:12
geopolitical overlay of any time you're00:16:14
talking about critical infrastructure00:16:15
cyber attacks and the other thing that00:16:17
we just need to be really really mindful00:16:18
of and i think this is a suggestion as00:16:20
well to the audience as you think about00:16:21
those challenges00:16:23
is if if you're an executive in your00:16:24
next board meeting in your next00:16:26
executive discussion there's really two00:16:27
questions that i would focus you on00:16:28
number one when you get all your metrics00:16:30
and your stats and your cyber heat maps00:16:32
that you barely understand we all love00:16:33
the colors00:16:35
ask the question is that the enterprise00:16:36
i.t or is that the enterprise00:16:39
because very often you're doing far less00:16:40
on the side of the business that you00:16:41
care most about the second thing i would00:16:43
suggest is the scenarios and this goes00:16:45
back to your training discussion very00:16:46
often especially the technical community00:16:48
it's all about technical controls00:16:49
already enough patching what about00:16:51
vulnerability management what about00:16:52
antivirus what about firewalls what00:16:53
about this that the others00:16:54
our problem is not needing next-gen ai00:16:56
blockchain or whatever else our problem00:16:58
usually is just about rolling out the00:17:00
things that we've already invested in00:17:01
doing something but don't focus on the00:17:02
technical controls we don't treat our00:17:03
business in any way like that anywhere00:17:05
else instead focus on scenarios should a00:17:08
power company anywhere in the world be00:17:10
able to prevent detect and respond to00:17:12
ukraine 2015 and 2016 scenario yeah of00:17:15
course we've seen it you should00:17:17
should they theorize about what happens00:17:19
when china iran russia u.s or whatever00:17:21
superpowers team up against you no it00:17:23
hasn't happened don't don't focus on the00:17:25
theoretical right but if something's00:17:26
actually happened in your industry you00:17:28
owe it to the community to actually have00:17:29
that scenario covered not a single00:17:31
technical control minister can i get a00:17:33
quick response from you i mean robert00:17:35
just mentioned that if it's a national00:17:37
security threat that a company is facing00:17:39
there is a role for funding for the00:17:41
state how do you feel about that would00:17:42
singapore step in and provide funding00:17:44
for companies that are under increased00:17:45
threat because of national security well00:17:47
i think in the first place um as a00:17:50
you know state00:17:52
we have to look at our own00:17:54
um00:17:55
you know provision of services and00:17:57
ensure that we set standards at a high00:17:59
enough level00:18:00
actually if you look at some of the00:18:02
critical information infrastructure00:18:05
quite a lot of it is operated by the00:18:07
state so say for example you know even00:18:09
if our power grid is00:18:11
is privatized to a very large extent the00:18:14
cyber security measures that we impose00:18:16
on the power generation companies00:18:19
is one way of ensuring that the00:18:21
standards are met but there are also00:18:23
other ways in which we can help for00:18:25
example understanding where the risks00:18:26
are i think this is where government can00:18:28
play an active part but i also want to00:18:30
add to what you know robert was saying00:18:33
which is that i think it makes sense for00:18:35
us you know when we think about00:18:37
scenarios not to think that we have not00:18:40
yet been breached and in fact in00:18:42
singapore00:18:43
the way we think about it is that the00:18:45
cyber attack is not a question of if but00:18:48
when00:18:49
and so00:18:50
we have to move from preventive measures00:18:53
to being able to recover from an attack00:18:55
and so cyber resilience building it into00:18:58
enterprise risk management00:19:00
is is really important and it has to be00:19:04
at a very high level of00:19:06
leadership that demands that these steps00:19:09
be taken minister you've taken us neatly00:19:11
into the next area i want to talk about00:19:12
perception gaps because the world00:19:14
economic forum has identified that there00:19:16
is a perception gap when it comes to00:19:18
just how prepared businesses are on00:19:19
cyber security versus cyber leaders now00:19:22
92 percent of business executives agree00:19:24
that cyber resilience is integrated into00:19:27
enterprise risk management strategies00:19:29
only 55 percent of cyber executives00:19:32
agree so the experts in the house think00:19:35
that the00:19:36
level of planning is just not adequate00:19:37
at this stage00:19:38
can i come to you on that point because00:19:40
you've seen the level of uh preparedness00:19:42
when it comes to locking down facilities00:19:45
stopping criminals from entering the00:19:47
premises what do you make of that00:19:49
perception gap and whether business00:19:51
leaders are ready for the task of00:19:53
averting cyber security attacks00:19:55
i mean from my experience and talking to00:19:58
a number of senior leaders in companies00:20:01
there is definitely00:20:02
the level of awareness has been rising00:20:05
it's it's much better00:20:07
but that does not necessarily mean that00:20:09
there is a comprehensive understanding00:20:11
of the00:20:12
cyber security risk in a company00:20:14
including what you said the the supply00:20:16
chain your partners you are you are00:20:18
connected with and again this00:20:20
comprehensive understanding and00:20:22
translating that into implementing the00:20:24
necessary measures doing it often enough00:20:27
because what we need actually is00:20:29
information exchange in real time00:20:33
because the situation is so dynamic00:20:35
crime patterns are changing sometimes00:20:38
within hours slightly or within a00:20:40
couple of weeks at least00:20:42
and and being a part of an ecosystem00:20:45
nationally regionally and00:20:47
internationally that allows these00:20:49
real-time information exchange so for me00:20:52
it's not a surprise that there is still00:20:53
a gap between the senior management that00:20:55
they are there is a general awareness00:20:58
but again investing in specific00:21:00
measures including your your teams your00:21:03
staff00:21:04
to reduce human failure in in these00:21:06
procedures and to understand that this00:21:09
is something you cannot just do once a00:21:11
year like a like a medical check um you00:21:14
have to do it as something permanent00:21:16
there is still obviously a lot for us to00:21:18
do and to increase the dialogue for00:21:21
instance between law enforcement because00:21:23
we on the one hand we are aware what's00:21:25
going on on the other hand we need the00:21:26
data which are in the private sector so00:21:28
we need your reports without your00:21:30
reports we are blind00:21:32
and and and that is something i00:21:34
mentioned this this huge number of00:21:36
unreported crime that is a gap that we00:21:38
need to close together not just law00:21:40
enforcement that requires that we build00:21:42
bridges between our silos the islands of00:21:45
information and in a more strongly way00:21:47
institutionalize the cooperation that00:21:49
already exists and for us the world00:21:51
economic forum is an important player on00:21:53
the global00:21:54
on the global level europe is going down00:21:56
the pathway of requiring some sort of00:21:58
reporting within 24 hours which is to00:22:00
your point that often we see this just00:22:02
brushed under the carpet that people00:22:03
don't want to disclose that there has00:22:05
been some sort of cyber breach because00:22:06
of reputation or risk for whatever00:22:08
reason yeah right chad let me come to00:22:10
you because you did touch on the00:22:11
perception gap a moment ago and one of00:22:12
the conversations i had with the cyber00:22:14
security expert this week was that00:22:15
nothing has changed in 20 years that00:22:18
people still perceive there is a risk00:22:19
they're trying to protect absolutely00:22:21
everything in the organization rather00:22:23
than most critical information00:22:25
just touch on what the strategy should00:22:27
be for business from here given that00:22:29
there is such a wide gap in how the00:22:31
industry experts feel the preparation00:22:33
should be00:22:35
so00:22:36
i mean i'm surprised that you think00:22:38
nothing has changed in 20 years that's00:22:39
not me that's not right00:22:41
so00:22:42
i can only say that00:22:44
you know when i was walking up here i00:22:46
accidentally met the chairman of ibm00:22:49
and00:22:51
uh he said where are you going this is00:22:53
arvind krishna who's the chairman of ibm00:22:55
and i said i'm going for the cyber00:22:57
security00:22:59
you know at the forum00:23:01
and he said00:23:02
oh that's the threat of the decade00:23:05
and it will remain00:23:07
the threat for the next decade00:23:09
so00:23:10
so one part is very very clear00:23:13
that most of us do realize00:23:16
that it is a threat00:23:18
the second part is00:23:20
that most of us also realize00:23:22
that00:23:23
while we know hundred ways to secure our00:23:27
i.t systems or the network or the end00:23:30
user or the supply chain00:23:33
but the attacker has to succeed only00:23:35
once00:23:37
so00:23:38
clearly00:23:39
for us whether it is technology00:23:43
it needs to be refreshed00:23:45
whether it is the processes00:23:47
they need to be00:23:48
you know you know talking about those00:23:50
viruses00:23:51
i mean all the healthcare as you put at00:23:53
your gun i mean it is very very clear00:23:56
that our processes have to be current00:23:58
and number third is00:24:00
people also it is not only that00:24:04
they need to know00:24:06
how to protect but they also need to00:24:08
know how to anticipate00:24:10
so i think00:24:12
the world over we need to realize00:24:15
that the various studies have shown00:24:18
there is a skill shortage in cyber00:24:20
security00:24:21
and i don't think that all of us are00:24:24
putting enough attention to00:24:27
creating that00:24:29
lateral skill force of 2.7 million00:24:33
people that are required by 2025.00:24:36
so i think it's a bigger challenge of00:24:38
people process and technology so00:24:42
catherine maybe just you know building00:24:43
on what chandra has said i suspect that00:24:46
the perception gap it comes about00:24:48
because one group00:24:49
is looking at all the known unknowns and00:24:53
saying that we've00:24:54
got this00:24:55
and then there is another group that is00:24:57
thinking about all the unknown unknowns00:24:59
and say no we haven't really got it and00:25:02
that's why you know you have this very00:25:04
big difference in perception00:25:06
in cybersecurity exactly as chandra says00:25:09
you don't know what you don't know and00:25:11
you have to00:25:12
believe that you know these are very00:25:14
serious vulnerabilities and you have to00:25:16
be on the lookout and trying to exchange00:25:19
information with each other try and get00:25:20
better to understanding the problem00:25:22
i'm glad i think many many companies00:25:24
still start seriously working on that00:25:26
when they first have been hit00:25:28
and and the data are blocked this is00:25:30
where the action starts oh who am i my00:25:32
points of contact where are my data who00:25:35
can help that's my experience in talking00:25:37
to a lot of senior leaders who called00:25:40
i've been attacked what am i going to do00:25:43
too late sorry00:25:45
you can see how engaged the paddle is00:25:46
but i know there are some questions out00:25:48
here on the floor so we have promised00:25:50
opened up for the conversation with our00:25:52
uh audience so if you would like to put00:25:54
your question please stand up and we00:25:56
will bring a microphone to you uh we00:25:58
have a question00:25:59
here first we have a microphone00:26:02
ready00:26:06
if you could state where you're from too00:26:07
please yes my name is wolfgang glenvist00:26:09
i'm a professor emeritus from the00:26:11
university of aarhus00:26:12
the united nations have started00:26:15
negotiations on a convention on cyber00:26:17
crime00:26:19
what do you expect and the question goes00:26:21
in particular to mr stock and madame00:26:24
taylor00:26:27
yes um thank you for that good question00:26:30
i mean it's a it's a global problem00:26:32
right and it requires a global solution00:26:35
as many other threats that the world is00:26:37
facing you cannot deal with that in just00:26:40
on a national level or on a regional00:26:42
level or in isolation that doesn't work00:26:44
it requires global coordination00:26:47
that the the challenge for interpol to00:26:49
connect 195 member countries what we00:26:51
expect is that that law enforcement is00:26:53
mentioned because hopefully we all agree00:26:55
that investigation prosecuting00:26:58
prosecution and getting the actors00:27:00
behind bars is an important part of00:27:02
protecting our systems so we we are part00:27:05
of these negotiations we hope that we00:27:08
can00:27:09
uh we can make sure that the interests00:27:11
of global law enforcement are00:27:13
represented in in this u.n approach00:27:15
which we consider to be important00:27:17
can i just add to what jurgen has said i00:27:20
fully agree with him there is a great00:27:22
need for international cooperation and00:27:25
that's why i think singapore makes an00:27:27
effort to participate in all of these00:27:30
even though you know in comparison to00:27:32
the threats faced by many other00:27:34
countries i i think ours is of just a00:27:36
different scale00:27:38
but i would say that apart from having a00:27:40
convention00:27:42
there is another area that i think is00:27:43
also very important and that has to do00:27:45
with capacity building you can have a00:27:47
convention but ultimately it is the00:27:49
individuals that are operating each of00:27:51
the countries cyber security systems00:27:54
that have to00:27:55
intervene at the appropriate times and00:27:57
what we have done is to work with our00:27:59
international counterparts00:28:01
to try and create00:28:03
programs as well as training00:28:05
opportunities in our part of the world00:28:07
in asean for example00:28:09
we've worked together to set up a cyber00:28:11
security center of excellence it's very00:28:14
well received00:28:15
whether it is the u.s whether it's00:28:16
interpol whether it's the uk00:28:19
so many countries have decided to come00:28:21
on board to try and share knowledge00:28:23
because in cyber security we fully00:28:25
recognize that it is a team sport00:28:27
and the better we are able you know to00:28:30
make every player a competent player00:28:33
the stronger the team is going to be so00:28:35
that's that's how we are approaching it00:28:37
and of course you need a full team as00:28:38
well to play the game properly robert00:28:40
before we move on can i just ask you00:28:42
because you're charged with a clean up00:28:43
when these security attacks happen do00:28:45
you think would make a difference if00:28:46
they were global coordination or some00:28:48
form of a un resolution i think it's a00:28:51
really nice idea and i wish you all the00:28:52
best of it uh thank you but no i don't00:28:55
think it will actually help anything you00:28:57
have always had agreements between00:28:59
states on things even to the point of00:29:01
like critical infrastructure attacks00:29:02
most of us agree that you shouldn't00:29:04
target civilians00:29:05
and in the moment that a government00:29:06
wants to they do00:29:08
when it's in their necessity they do00:29:10
and so i just think00:29:12
global discussions and so forth really00:29:14
really important the awareness really00:29:16
really important thinking that a tree to00:29:17
see or similar is going to fix it i00:29:19
think is not necessary but i do want to00:29:21
look at the things that work if you look00:29:23
at the cyber security agency in00:29:24
singapore if you look at the cyber00:29:26
security from infrastructure security00:29:27
agency in the u.s you look at the00:29:29
australian government their acsc program00:29:31
these different government agencies have00:29:32
come out and raised the discussion00:29:34
completely on their own like it's not00:29:36
vendors everybody else it's government00:29:37
agencies having international00:29:39
cooperation and making sure that board00:29:41
members down to practitioners know what00:29:42
to do that type of stuff works go repeat00:29:45
what works and scale what works and if00:29:47
you want to do some other ideas too00:29:48
that's fine but do them parallel don't00:29:50
do one or the other00:29:52
let's get some more questions in there00:29:53
is one down the front here00:29:54
thank you thank you00:29:56
um hello uh my name is natalia and i'm00:29:59
here as a global shaper as a curator of00:30:01
the leaf hub00:30:02
when the war started00:30:04
the headquarters they00:30:06
took out all information from the00:30:07
website information about all ukrainian00:30:10
hubs meeting about all ukrainian shapers00:30:14
in the meantime we do have our facebook00:30:17
instagram linkedin profiles00:30:20
the question is what would you do on our00:30:22
place00:30:23
should we hide00:30:24
all information about ourselves thank00:30:27
you00:30:28
chandra do you want to take that one00:30:32
you know00:30:35
honestly the sources00:30:37
of information00:30:40
are so many00:30:42
that00:30:43
i don't know whether you can be a00:30:45
universal policing00:30:47
so for example when we were talking00:30:49
about this00:30:50
you know00:30:51
central competency00:30:54
regarding00:30:55
the repository of let us say malware00:30:58
i mean the reality is00:31:00
people in the cso community and the00:31:02
people in the hacking community00:31:04
they have all the repositories available00:31:07
and that's why the tool companies have00:31:10
created00:31:11
some of the controls00:31:14
so i personally believe00:31:16
that we have to assume00:31:19
that the information would be available00:31:23
we do should while we can try policing00:31:26
but that information will be available00:31:29
whether it is through facebook or00:31:30
whether it is through any other00:31:32
social media00:31:34
and00:31:35
i think our strategy has to be00:31:38
with an assumption that00:31:40
people know what the tools are available00:31:42
people know what malware is available00:31:45
people know what kind of security00:31:46
measures are there and within that how00:31:50
to evolve and encrypt or00:31:52
protect yourselves00:31:54
yeah if if i could take a spin at that i00:31:56
would say especially talking about00:31:57
conflict and shooting wars and not just00:31:59
espionage00:32:01
i think the topic of personal safety is00:32:03
something you should think a lot about00:32:04
and i think those type of actions are00:32:05
really important i agree that that00:32:07
information is available somewhere but a00:32:09
lot of these state actors we view them00:32:10
as if they're one big state after the us00:32:12
russia iran big country level but the00:32:15
reality is there's a bunch of different00:32:16
agencies a bunch of different teams and00:32:19
the person coming after you is not00:32:21
russia china iran u.s it's five to ten00:32:24
people on a subset of a subset of a00:32:25
subset of teams so maybe somewhere in00:32:27
the government they have the information00:32:29
but that team might not and so when00:32:31
you're talking about personal safety i00:32:33
do think limiting your exposure00:32:34
especially in those type of environments00:32:36
is a very wise thing to do there's also00:32:38
an information war that comes up i mean00:32:39
we saw one specific example where i00:32:42
think there was a makeup artist in00:32:43
ukraine who was a part of one of the the00:32:45
areas of conflict and her profile was00:32:47
used against her in the information war00:32:48
by the russians so it's obviously00:32:50
another area to think about but let's00:32:52
get some more questions and i know that00:32:53
there's a little bit of interest here00:32:58
so thank you very much can you hear me00:33:00
yeah so just on the cyber war we don't00:33:03
have rules of engagement uh for like00:33:05
multilateral system to just uh i00:33:07
understand your point robert in terms of00:33:09
like we need uh solutions but i also00:33:11
believe that we need multilateral00:33:13
solutions for that so do you have ideas00:33:15
for engagement in cyber war like rules00:33:17
of engagement at geneva convention for00:33:19
cyber war00:33:20
actions any i sit on a panel of the u.n00:33:24
secretary general and effective00:33:25
multilateralism and we're thinking we're00:33:26
thinking about this right now so that's00:33:28
why i'm just also consulting you thank00:33:30
you00:33:31
i think a number of countries are trying00:33:33
very hard to develop rules of the road00:33:35
that could you know be subscribed to by00:33:38
everyone00:33:40
the united nations has a open-ended00:33:42
working group for example where many00:33:44
countries have been engaged in00:33:46
multi-year00:33:47
conversations but as robert has also00:33:50
intimated it's not an easy conversation00:33:53
obviously there are very diverse00:33:55
interests00:33:56
and but i think we are making progress00:33:59
as it turns out singapore is the chair00:34:01
of this current00:34:03
edition of the open-ended working group00:34:05
and at the very least i think you know00:34:08
when the swiss chaired it the last time00:34:10
around00:34:11
you know there was at least a document00:34:13
that they could agreed you know what00:34:14
were some of the baseline provisions00:34:16
that everyone you know should be able to00:34:18
provide00:34:19
um kind of in can this conversation be00:34:22
taken deeper and can we develop you know00:34:25
more00:34:26
um00:34:27
you know robust um sort of understanding00:34:30
of how we would operate with each other00:34:31
the answer is yes will we get there any00:34:34
time soon i would say we will have to00:34:36
work very hard at it00:34:37
jurgen can i get you on this i mean00:34:39
you're used to working across borders00:34:41
we also have a situation there where we00:34:42
know that global cooperation has broken00:34:44
down china is a great example where00:34:47
there's been trade wars there's been00:34:49
concerns about the level of information00:34:51
shared between the chinese and the west00:34:52
and how do you get around some of these00:34:54
issues as we talk about global00:34:55
cooperation00:34:57
yeah i mean we00:34:58
try to be the platform where all these00:35:01
countries to some extent are coming00:35:03
together despite all the differences in00:35:06
in legal systems and put in political00:35:08
systems00:35:09
because one thing is quite clear any gap00:35:12
we are leaving will be exploited by00:35:14
criminals and we have seen that also00:35:16
during the the pandemic during covet how00:35:18
quickly criminals shifted their00:35:21
narrative to the new vulnerabilities of00:35:23
our society so so any crisis that occurs00:35:26
will be exploited by by criminals we00:35:29
spoke about metaverse earlier today here00:35:32
i'm sure as we speak here criminals are00:35:34
already preparing to use that as a00:35:36
platform for criminal activity and again00:35:39
there is no other choice and this is why00:35:40
interpol exists to provide that platform00:35:43
is it perfect no of course it's not but00:35:46
on the other hand are we successful here00:35:48
and there by by bringing the players00:35:51
together even those who have diplomatic00:35:54
problems too i mean difficult to say in00:35:56
these times yes we are there is i think00:35:59
there is no alternative to that the00:36:01
internet is global and you need a kind00:36:04
of global00:36:05
kind of police force or at least we we00:36:08
try to bring the national forces at00:36:11
least in some cases00:36:12
together that that's our mandate let's00:36:14
take some more questions i believe we00:36:16
have00:36:17
one down the front here we will take one00:36:18
from the other side of the room if we00:36:20
can in a moment00:36:24
okay hi i'm inon kostika i'm a co-founder for00:36:27
a cloud security company named wiz and00:36:30
we're working with multiple fortune 50000:36:33
companies and what we've realized that00:36:35
the key to actually initiate something00:36:38
an improvement is working with the00:36:40
engineers that build the cloud00:36:42
applications you mentioned that humans00:36:44
are the biggest failure you mentioned00:36:47
that we need to train more and just now00:36:49
we're seeing questions from00:36:51
people personal people saying okay00:36:53
expose the information i didn't know00:36:54
what would be the outcomes in the long00:36:57
run so my question to you question to00:36:59
you is basically how can we enable00:37:01
more global education on or awareness on00:37:05
cyber one that can provide everyone with00:37:09
tools to assess their risk my my parents00:37:12
for instance they got an email saying we00:37:14
have a00:37:15
pictures of you pay one thousand dollars00:37:17
to this address and i'm like that's00:37:19
nonsense it's just extortion ignore it00:37:21
but they didn't know they were scared00:37:23
for two days they had nowhere to go to00:37:25
to ask that question so my question to00:37:27
how can we create a global community to00:37:29
train and we raise awareness china do00:37:31
you want to talk about that00:37:33
so00:37:34
you know00:37:35
i would agree00:37:37
that00:37:39
nipping the problem in the bud is the00:37:41
right way00:37:43
because if you write a code which is00:37:45
secure00:37:47
and which has got enough firewalls in it00:37:50
i think you're making it difficult for00:37:52
anybody to break into the code00:37:54
so i think that's a fundamentally just00:37:56
the right way00:37:58
number two00:37:59
[Music]00:38:00
i think we covered this point about00:38:02
education00:38:07
there is no00:38:09
immediate resolution to that part00:38:11
that whether that education can be00:38:15
in a given to00:38:18
tens of millions of users now because as00:38:21
we all know00:38:22
the vulnerability is not only00:38:25
by one operating system00:38:28
or one piece of code or one tool the00:38:32
vulnerabilities can come in from a smart00:38:34
city00:38:35
a smart factory00:38:37
or from a smart metering i mean00:38:40
whichever way you want to look at it00:38:42
and00:38:43
to prevent it00:38:45
i mean if you were to say there are two00:38:47
ways to prevent it one is become00:38:49
good citizen so there is no crime or you00:38:52
put put in enough police people00:38:54
so that there is no crime because people00:38:56
are what you know afraid of the police i00:38:59
think both of them is required you need00:39:01
to educate but it will take time until00:39:04
that time i think some of us00:39:07
have to act as a catalyst and i00:39:10
definitely would agree00:39:12
that people like you when you write your00:39:15
code try and make it secure and the more00:39:19
we start00:39:21
as a community start paying you premium00:39:24
because you deliver a secure code i00:39:26
think that is the right way because00:39:28
people will learn00:39:29
that there is an economic benefit to00:39:32
secure code so again can i just add to00:39:34
that to two perspectives one i00:39:36
completely agree security by design00:39:38
should become a competitive advantage00:39:40
for you if you are able to offer a00:39:42
product to the market that has got more00:39:44
security features built in and then it00:39:46
should command a premium and people over00:39:48
time will learn that it is in their00:39:50
interest to pay for it00:39:53
but i would also say that i don't know00:39:54
that you need a global effort to get00:39:57
this going i think as national00:39:59
governments we all owe our citizens a00:40:02
duty of care00:40:03
and00:40:04
it is in our interest to help educate00:40:06
our our citizens to understand the risk00:40:10
that they are exposed to when they00:40:11
engage in in the cyber domain um it00:40:14
starts from you know children in school00:40:17
um helping them to understand you know00:40:20
that they can be exposed to online harms00:40:22
and how to deal with it00:40:24
it can be for example in collaboration00:40:26
with corporates in singapore for example00:40:29
google has a very good program00:40:32
they help teach our school going kids00:40:34
how to00:40:36
do simple things like uh have strong00:40:38
passwords right but there are also00:40:41
different segments of the population00:40:42
that are vulnerable seniors you know who00:40:44
are00:40:45
targets for scammers00:40:48
and00:40:49
apart from strengthening our defenses00:40:51
against scammers there is also a lot of00:40:53
education that can be done by the00:40:54
government00:40:55
this is sometimes police00:40:58
you know collaborating with people00:41:00
sector organizations civic civil society00:41:03
i think these are all efforts that can00:41:05
be taken at the national level and it00:41:06
should be in our own interest to do so00:41:08
right and in one second i mean we need00:41:10
law enforcement needs the industry to00:41:12
help us00:41:13
getting the tools to investigate cyber00:41:16
crime in that new00:41:17
virtual00:41:18
environment we have a champions league00:41:20
of law enforcement agencies who are well00:41:22
trained and well equipped but let's say00:41:25
195 member countries police services00:41:28
let's say maybe 7000:41:29
are not well equipped and not trained00:41:31
and very often they have nothing so we00:41:33
also need the the support from the00:41:35
private sector to develop easy handle00:41:37
easy to handle solutions to investigate00:41:39
that type of crime robert00:41:41
well yeah i would i would agree with00:41:42
everything that was said i would just00:41:43
add again sorry the scenarios and00:41:45
requirements discussion i think the00:41:46
minister was talking earlier about00:41:48
distraction uh should your parents be00:41:50
worrying about a cyber attack that take00:41:52
down transformers and electric system00:41:54
probably not until they're operating00:41:56
them right so00:41:57
we come out all the time we do all these00:41:59
cyber security things i think as as00:42:01
leaders we sometimes fail our00:42:03
communities and setting the requirements00:42:04
to start with even at a business level00:42:06
what do you need to worry about at this00:42:07
company set the two or three scenarios00:42:10
the requirements you have etc that you00:42:11
need to care about that company doesn't00:42:13
need to be prepared for every possible00:42:14
cyber security thing and we talk about00:42:16
education where do you start these days00:42:18
with cyber security it's so broad you00:42:20
cannot be a generalist in cybersecurity00:42:21
anymore 20 years ago absolutely today no00:42:24
cloud specialists industrial specialists00:42:25
whatever and we just say industrial and00:42:27
that's different from being a specialist00:42:28
in electric power versus pharmaceuticals00:42:30
so i think the setting the requirements00:42:32
setting those scenarios and figuring out00:42:34
what do we actually want out of our00:42:36
communities other than cyber safe cyber00:42:38
hygiene or whatever else you want to00:42:39
throw out that ultimately just gets this00:42:41
large peanut butter spread instead of00:42:43
actually doing things00:42:45
we are out of time for questions i'm so00:42:46
sorry i know that there's plenty of00:42:47
interest still but just 10 seconds each00:42:50
what do you want to see happen in the00:42:51
next 12 months robert i would like to00:42:53
see at an executive level a better00:42:55
understanding of the operation00:42:56
technology risk that exists in companies00:42:58
and put some effort towards it pick a00:43:00
path doesn't matter but pick a path but00:43:02
realize that you cannot copy and paste00:43:04
your i.t strategy into your power plant00:43:08
from my perspective including the policy00:43:10
makers here uh00:43:13
10 seconds focus on education focus on00:43:16
people00:43:17
focus on skills minister00:43:20
cyber security is a wicked problem you00:43:22
never get to solve it once and for all00:43:24
it should never be an afterthought it00:43:26
should always be a priority00:43:28
again stronger more institutionalized00:43:30
public-private partnership00:43:32
that was very snappy thank you so much00:43:34
jurgen minister chanda and robert we00:43:35
appreciate your time00:43:49
youDescription:
The World Economic Forum's Global Cybersecurity Outlook report indicates that cyberattacks increased 125% globally in 2021, with evidence suggesting a continued uptick through 2022. In this fast-changing landscape it is vital for leaders to take a strategic approach to cyber risks. How can leaders better prepare for future cyber shocks? What individual and collective actions will foster a more secure and resilient digital ecosystem? The World Economic Forum is the International Organization for Public-Private Cooperation. The Forum engages the foremost political, business, cultural and other leaders of society to shape global, regional and industry agendas. We believe that progress happens by bringing together people from all walks of life who have the drive and the influence to make positive change. World Economic Forum Website ► http://www.weforum.org/ Facebook ► https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser YouTube ► https://www.youtube.com/wef Instagram ► https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser Twitter ► https://twitter.com/wef LinkedIn ► https://www.linkedin.com/company/world-economic-forum TikTok ► https://www.tiktok.com/@worldeconomicforum Flipboard ► https://flipboard.com/@WEF
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