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Russian
00:00:02
good old days Mikhail Boris, hello,00:00:04
hello, we were from the same00:00:06
studio, uh, I00:00:08
’m in the darkness Yes, in the Russian darkness And00:00:13
you see both of them have a light background, some kind of00:00:15
very revealing00:00:19
poster. I00:00:21
just immediately understand where00:00:27
Borisovich is first question Are you in Poland No00:00:31
why00:00:33
And what is there And there the Congress of People's Deputies is00:00:37
taking place You know,00:00:40
they wrote to me yesterday, but I am not a people's00:00:43
deputy00:00:45
and partly00:00:49
Wow, I really hope00:00:51
in my life I will not have to experience this traumatic experience of00:00:54
being elected00:00:56
and I00:01:00
have never done this and glory I hope to God00:01:03
never again,00:01:04
seriously. How do you assess00:01:08
what’s going on there now?00:01:09
You know, I can’t say that I’m00:01:12
watching closely. Well, that is, rather,00:01:14
they write to me about it and ask questions, but00:01:17
I00:01:19
haven’t asked deeply about it yet. Although I know Ilya under00:01:22
the sea, he even knows his worked for a while00:01:25
in one of my companies and00:01:29
in general he is a very00:01:31
talented man; another thing is00:01:35
that00:01:36
we now have somewhat00:01:40
different views on certain issues.00:01:43
Well, that is, I don’t think that00:01:47
non-combat tanks should be drawn00:01:50
into a direct force00:01:54
confrontation, he thinks otherwise Well,00:01:59
I’m very glad that people are gathering to discuss something. First of all, of00:02:05
course, we wanted to00:02:08
ask you more about the book. I00:02:11
read it, I don’t know. Maxim, did I read00:02:13
the link to our viewers?00:02:16
Yes, of course00:02:25
I read it. And it’s called How to kill a00:02:29
dragon, a guide for aspiring00:02:30
revolutionaries. I threw a link to the book00:02:33
into the chat so that our viewers can also00:02:36
read it, you write at the very beginning of the book, it00:02:39
seems to me that the most important thing is a-a This is a00:02:41
great misconception, how many when00:02:44
they analyze what is happening every time00:02:46
they say that Putin will not be and that’s all and the00:02:49
country will become different and how00:02:53
Putin won’t get rid of it, but it will most00:02:56
likely remain Putinism. How to00:02:58
get rid of this very Putinism, how to00:03:00
prevent it,00:03:03
I specifically wrote this book in such00:03:08
detail, including00:03:09
on the question of How to00:03:12
make this transition because I’m00:03:16
really afraid that00:03:19
Putin then we will change our surname we I have00:03:23
until Russians and at the exit we will get a00:03:26
Shmutin there with a different surname and we will enter a00:03:30
new Circle of authoritarianism therefore, in my00:03:33
opinion, there are a number of technological00:03:36
solutions00:03:38
that will,00:03:41
in any case, increase the chance that we00:03:44
will remain on the path of democratic00:03:47
development and here of course a very important00:03:50
element will be how the00:03:53
transition will be carried out from the point of view of00:03:55
violence. I describe in detail in the book00:03:58
why I think that the00:04:03
way to change this government without the00:04:06
threat of violence is doubtful, but the00:04:09
very use of the carrier itself, the00:04:12
use of violence, is undesirable because I00:04:14
believe that without00:04:16
reliable the threat of its use of power will00:04:19
not go away,00:04:21
and despite the fact that we will still move00:04:24
from the threat to the direct use of00:04:28
violence, it increases very significantly00:04:30
increases the likelihood that the next00:04:34
regime will also be authoritarian, you00:04:37
mean that when he ever00:04:40
wants to believe he will have to to be00:04:43
different from what we saw in Belarus00:04:47
Yes, of course, Belarus in this sense is00:04:50
also a very serious example, a very00:04:54
serious argument that shows00:04:56
that if there is not even a threat of00:04:59
violence, then the power if it is not00:05:02
cowardly And our government is not00:05:04
cowardly, it is generally not afraid00:05:06
to spill blood,00:05:09
it’s impossible to do anything with it, that00:05:13
is, the fact that people should have weapons,00:05:16
they should be ready to use them, this is00:05:20
inevitable in our situation, a00:05:23
terrible thing, but here you are, Mikhail Borisovich, a00:05:26
supporter of the fact that Russia must00:05:29
survive On today’s borders Yes, there00:05:32
must be federalization before the regions00:05:34
must play a big role, but why, in00:05:38
your opinion, are these borders which, well, not00:05:41
the current ones, by the way, which Russia00:05:42
declares? Well, those that were at least00:05:45
there before the fourteenth year. Let’s at00:05:46
least go to this date,00:05:49
so that’s why these borders, in your opinion, are00:05:52
important to preserve.00:05:55
Well, the answer to we are now observing this question00:06:02
before our very eyes, two00:06:07
powers were disintegrating, one of them was the understandable Soviet00:06:11
Union, the other was Yugoslavia,00:06:14
and if Yugoslavia immediately upon its collapse00:06:19
generally00:06:20
gave rise to a very severe conflict, then in00:06:25
relation to the Soviet Union we still00:06:26
had some problems the illusion that00:06:29
this conflict will not happen, that the borders are00:06:31
turning from administrative, that is,00:06:34
in fact, we are not noticed by anyone except00:06:37
the bureaucracy into state ones, they can00:06:41
remain as00:06:44
calm as they were when they00:06:47
were administrative,00:06:49
history has taught us a lesson, there are practically no00:06:53
borders left in the Soviet Union00:06:57
absolutely calm there is a00:07:00
calmer one like between Russia and00:07:03
Kazakhstan there is a very hot one like00:07:06
now between Russia and Ukraine or00:07:09
between00:07:10
Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan and so on00:07:14
Azerbaijan It’s clear00:07:17
Azerbaijan again is clear But all00:07:20
the borders have become Well, or most of them have become00:07:24
bloody and we are still there in00:07:28
a situation where00:07:30
nuclear weapons are located only on one00:07:33
side of these borders, nuclear weapons are00:07:37
located only in Russia,00:07:40
imagine a situation where nuclear weapons will be00:07:43
located in at least five or00:07:46
seven of the newly formed00:07:49
territories, or countries, and at the same time,00:07:54
these are all the ideas that these weapons, nuclear00:07:56
weapons, will be taken under control by00:07:59
some international organizations,00:08:01
this is all in favor of the poor,00:08:03
the situation that has now happened00:08:07
to Ukraine, I don’t even mean the00:08:11
war itself, the war is a00:08:14
clear manifestation, but the situation itself00:08:17
is a violation of international obligations00:08:20
as such,00:08:21
it has proven proven everyone that the00:08:25
absence of nuclear weapons is not00:08:29
covered by any Budapest00:08:31
agreements and guarantees00:08:34
and I am absolutely convinced that no one in their00:08:37
right mind with sober memory of those who00:08:40
now have nuclear weapons from them00:08:42
or from their possible use00:08:46
will refuse and00:08:48
this is probably the strongest argument00:08:51
Why00:08:52
[music] It is00:08:53
extremely important for the whole world that Russia does00:08:57
not disintegrate. But there are, of course, other00:09:01
arguments that must be understood, including00:09:03
purely economic ones.00:09:19
to the seas and a00:09:23
very large land territory. And00:09:26
this is important because transportation over00:09:31
land is at least an00:09:34
order of magnitude more expensive00:09:36
than by sea, and this means that00:09:40
the possibility of direct access and00:09:43
maintaining direct communications00:09:46
for00:09:48
people living in this territory is00:09:51
critically important, and so here we00:09:54
enter the following element, again00:09:57
which history shows that more than00:10:02
three entities without00:10:05
administrative interaction00:10:14
can agree with each other on commercial terms only over a very long time, and00:10:18
this long time because, for00:10:20
example, still, well, I’m00:10:23
not because this is the most important00:10:26
because it is closest to me, if we take the00:10:29
oil industry, then if all the00:10:33
entities through which the00:10:35
pipe should pass, for example, do not agree on what00:10:37
conditions oil is pumped through this pipe, then a00:10:42
drop in00:10:43
oil production there by two to five times is,00:10:47
in general, almost inevitable, a00:10:50
shortage of petroleum products is almost00:10:53
inevitable and you need to understand that this not00:10:57
only concerns the oil industry. That is, if00:11:00
Russia00:11:01
breaks up into a whole series of entities, then00:11:05
people will not only with a high degree of00:11:09
probability start fighting among themselves,00:11:12
but they are also guaranteed to live00:11:15
much worse, that is, not just worse, but00:11:19
much worse simply because these00:11:22
economic and economic problems00:11:25
So the00:11:28
collapse of Russia is an undesirable situation00:11:33
both for the people living in this00:11:35
territory and for the world community00:11:40
if this very federalization, which00:11:42
you say, among other things,00:11:44
reaches such a stage that00:11:48
some of the republics00:11:51
for example, the national ones will say we want everything, we00:11:54
understand your arguments, we understand what we want to00:11:57
do.00:11:59
Well, I think that in general, to00:12:03
deep regret, Putin has brought the situation00:12:06
in the country to such a stage where00:12:09
we can no longer manage without re-establishing the country. That00:12:12
is,00:12:14
before February 24, I was even afraid00:12:17
to think about it. Personally, because I observed00:12:21
all these processes that I told you about,00:12:26
I was just afraid to think about it, I didn’t want to00:12:29
write about it, everything I wrote about was a00:12:31
parliamentary republic, but on February 2400:12:34
the situation turned upside down, we understand that00:12:37
the war will have to end on the00:12:41
terms that00:12:44
will largely be dictated by the Western world and we ca00:12:49
n’t get away from this; it’s a deep regret that00:12:52
paying those reparations that00:12:57
Ukraine might rightly want00:12:59
will simply be00:13:01
impossible. Well, because I can00:13:04
imagine, I can only imagine00:13:07
how much Ukraine will want, and this means00:13:10
that00:13:13
people on the territory of Russia will have to00:13:16
show the world that this is another state like00:13:19
this it is impossible to show another state without00:13:22
re-establishment, but during the00:13:26
period of establishment it is clear that some00:13:28
of the00:13:29
current territories of the current00:13:31
national republics may00:13:34
decide that it would be better if they were not00:13:37
part of not part of Russia. I personally00:13:39
think that this would be a00:13:41
dramatic mistake or these00:13:44
the most00:13:45
republics or territories, but in the00:13:48
end they decide their own fate, and00:13:52
I’m here during the re-establishment of the country. Well,00:13:57
as if there are no options, people if they don’t want to,00:14:00
then they don’t join, another thing is00:14:03
that00:14:05
life and can00:14:08
[music]00:14:09
appear and prove quickly enough00:14:12
that some kind of00:14:14
state education, I’m not00:14:16
talking now of course about the00:14:18
Imperial Option or even about a unitary00:14:22
state, but some kind of state00:14:24
formation on the territory of the Eurasian00:14:27
continent is necessary.00:14:30
But that will happen later.00:14:34
If we talk about how much there00:14:37
were attempts, including Yes, the Soviet00:14:40
Union will survive and give greater00:14:46
independence to the countries. such00:14:48
an attempt was accepted as the CIS and it showed In00:14:52
general its unviability Rather00:14:54
Maybe you will not agree with me, it does00:14:57
n’t seem to you that centrifugal00:14:59
forces at this moment00:15:02
acquire such an effect such strength00:15:05
such power That it is difficult to00:15:08
explain this, including with some00:15:11
rational arguments00:15:14
it is difficult but it is necessary,00:15:18
and here we must take into account the00:15:24
peculiarity that00:15:28
Russia has today, Russia is still in a00:15:30
significant part of its territory. Well, that is, in the00:15:33
overwhelming part of the territory it is a00:15:35
territory, it is a00:15:38
monocultural and immunoethnic territory,00:15:42
I say again in the overwhelming part of the00:15:45
territory,00:15:47
but this is not During the collapse of00:15:51
the Soviet Union, there were still00:15:54
those decisions that were made by00:15:57
the Bolsheviks at the beginning of the creation of the00:15:59
Soviet Union. They led to a certain00:16:05
national isolation of the union00:16:09
republics; in particular,00:16:11
all government bodies were formed00:16:13
that00:16:15
had the00:16:17
corresponding00:16:21
operating experience. Even if limited, but00:16:23
nevertheless this there was precisely the experience of00:16:26
public administration, in addition to this,00:16:29
there00:16:30
in these territories there was already a very ancient national culture that was fully00:16:34
formed in many places00:16:39
and most of these countries had access to00:16:46
freezing seas and there was a limited00:16:50
external threat, so the external threat00:16:54
was perceived as limited, it’s00:16:57
a combination of these factors. She00:16:59
led to the fact that00:17:01
most countries00:17:04
voluntarily00:17:06
consciously decided on their00:17:10
separate existence. In the case of00:17:13
Russia itself, the situation is different,00:17:16
firstly,00:17:17
as I want to emphasize once again, from a00:17:22
cultural point of view we are a fairly00:17:25
unitary country and in language, here you are, in00:17:28
culture we are still quite00:17:30
unitary countries,00:17:32
secondly, access to the seas I suddenly have non-00:17:36
freezing and thirdly,00:17:39
today, of course, the participation of the territory. With00:17:45
Russia’s approach, there is a clear00:17:49
understanding of external threats00:17:53
and you can talk about Yes, the pro-revolutionary00:17:57
component, I’m here because I’m in Russia00:18:00
and this issue worries me more00:18:03
acutely It seems to me, and more than you, that00:18:07
you write00:18:09
about the fact that Russia is in dire need of a00:18:12
revolution. Here I absolutely agree with you.00:18:14
But as a person who00:18:17
is in Moscow and who saw what00:18:22
happened to the people there after00:18:26
February 24, after the bucci and conditionally after the00:18:29
start of mobilization, I I don’t see any00:18:32
prerequisites that could lead00:18:36
Elementarily to some kind of not even a00:18:39
Revolution, but to some kind of mass00:18:41
uprising on the street,00:18:44
well, first of all, a00:18:46
mass uprising is absolutely not00:18:50
necessary, we are talking about a00:18:53
sufficient number of people ready to00:18:57
use violence00:18:59
in -Secondly, Believe me00:19:02
[music] a00:19:03
few days before August 91 and00:19:09
before 93,00:19:11
I had a person who then not00:19:15
only lived in Moscow, but was00:19:17
right in the thick of things,00:19:20
had no00:19:22
idea that now there would be tanks on the streets00:19:25
and people would have these tanks Well, not tanks.00:19:29
Let them have armored personnel carriers there and calmly burn them with00:19:31
bottles of flammable mixture;00:19:35
none of this happened then once and in one00:19:38
day, and I myself am participating in this and okay,00:19:43
you reassured me. Well, I don’t know, it’s so00:19:47
ambivalent,00:19:49
it sounds scary. But you know, it00:19:53
sounds hopeful to me I’ll tell you, well,00:19:57
today, in any case, it’s00:19:58
huge, okay, not huge, it’s not for00:20:02
nothing that a sufficient number of political players are00:20:04
being formed in their own country. Let them have limited but00:20:06
armed forces, you need to understand that00:20:10
these are there, for example, 7,000 people00:20:12
who were formed by Mr.00:20:16
Prigogine, they are only on the front of the00:20:17
Ukrainian war it looks like a fake00:20:20
because, well, it’s clear When you’re standing on the00:20:23
other side hundreds of thousands of00:20:25
fighters are fighting, then 7,000 is of course good, but00:20:28
that’s exactly 10 salvos, so to speak, but00:20:32
within the framework of street battles, 7,000 people00:20:36
isa lot,00:20:38
and00:20:39
Kadyrov’s 20 thousand fighters is a lot00:20:44
and00:20:46
the National Guard separately from Kadyrov’s00:20:49
fighters, since the fact that they are listed in00:20:52
the Russian Guard is00:20:53
a kind of joke that can only be00:20:57
laughed at. That’s also a lot, and there’s a lot of the FSB, and00:21:03
even a separate Kantemirovskaya00:21:05
division. That’s a lot, that is, we must00:21:08
understand that there are00:21:10
already a lot of such groups00:21:14
armed today. now00:21:18
we have removed the borders between00:21:21
Russia and these four00:21:25
regions of Ukraine00:21:27
and there for a second Well, at least 3000:21:31
thousand fighters with experience00:21:34
[music] of00:21:36
eight years of00:21:37
armed confrontation, now there is00:21:40
already more than00:21:42
six months of war, this is another or even more than00:21:46
one group, that is, in in general,00:21:48
people who are ready00:21:52
to confront each other and to whom at some00:21:54
point it will clearly dawn on them that the issue00:21:57
is not being resolved near Kherson,00:22:01
in general there are a lot of them,00:22:05
but00:22:06
the groups are00:22:08
like you. How do you think they are? Well, that00:22:13
is, they will be on the same side for a long time. I00:22:15
have in mind the Russian Guard Prigozhin Yes no00:22:18
of course00:22:20
Yes no of course they won’t be on one side for a00:22:25
single minute at the moment when00:22:28
the question comes up about real power because00:22:33
Prigozhin has no guarantees from00:22:35
Kadyrov Kadyrov has absolutely00:22:37
no guarantees from00:22:39
gold gold no at all guarantees from the00:22:44
outside00:22:45
Well, I don’t know there will be harsh punishments or00:22:48
who else will be there, in general, yes No, of course,00:22:51
in general this is00:22:53
such a war of everyone against everyone, but you have to00:22:58
understand that people are still00:23:00
how we differ from00:23:02
Egypt and from many other countries where this00:23:05
happened this is the Arab spring among the00:23:07
older population, here we have an average00:23:11
age after all, for a quarrel and00:23:14
people who are over 40 still have00:23:17
more brains than hormones, so00:23:23
this is such a thing, too, valence, forgive me00:23:27
for saying this word a second time, but00:23:29
if we look at those who believes00:23:31
the propaganda, those who are for the continuation of the war,00:23:34
these are the same people who are over 40. And I’m not00:23:39
saying that they are Oh, how smart or Oh,00:23:43
how00:23:47
propagandized00:23:49
they are, but they have00:23:53
more brains than hormones and they will coolly00:23:57
advocate that I should not be there I know00:24:00
to tear the whole of Ukraine to shreds, but at that00:24:03
moment when they offer to pick up a00:24:05
machine gun themselves and really go00:24:09
into the trenches, so to speak. Well, a00:24:13
16-year-old will run with pleasure, he00:24:17
believes that he will live forever. A00:24:20
20-year-old Well, in general, he will already think, but a00:24:24
forty-year-old will just will not go Well, if there00:24:26
is no direct threat to00:24:28
his family, he simply will not go and this,00:24:33
of course, gives some hope that00:24:36
we will be able to get by with the threat of00:24:39
violence, but the violence itself00:24:41
will either not be there or there will be very little Well,00:24:44
people are just ready to defend themselves, their family00:24:47
home but are not ready to sacrifice their lives00:24:50
just to prove something to someone00:24:53
That is, you are waiting for format 91 or00:24:57
93 Yes, I think that what will00:25:01
happen here will be This is a00:25:04
rather limited format I’m afraid00:25:07
to make a mistake But that’s what I’ll say a pessimistic00:25:11
optimist,00:25:13
it must be said that on February 24, on the one00:25:16
hand, they seemed to have somehow00:25:18
predicted that this could happen, but00:25:20
the horror turned out to be much greater than everyone00:25:22
probably could have imagined. And in00:25:25
many ways, Yes, in many ways, of course. This is due00:25:28
to the fact that no one imagined that the00:25:30
Russian authorities it will be so easy to hit the00:25:33
civilian population; on the00:25:35
other hand, for many, this became an00:25:37
occasion to look back at what happened inside00:25:40
Russia, especially at the Chechen wars,00:25:42
especially the second company. I know that you are00:25:45
on Twitter, yes, you had such00:25:47
heated discussions on this topic, these00:25:49
six months made you00:25:51
look differently, somehow re-evaluate the00:25:53
events of the Chechen wars, yes, of course,00:25:57
without any doubt, without any00:25:59
doubt, although I was,00:26:03
I won’t say that it was00:26:06
very deeply, but quite deeply00:26:09
involved in both the first confrontation in00:26:13
Chechnya and the second confrontation in Chechnya00:26:16
But These are the00:26:19
documentary materials that00:26:26
I now find online in connection with the war in Ukraine about these wars,00:26:30
they strongly force me to00:26:33
rethink what was happening then and00:26:37
in general. In some cases, I just00:26:39
grab my head with my hands in horror.00:26:42
This, by the way, does not mean that00:26:46
I am changing you understand your position in terms of00:26:52
the conversation that was going on at00:26:55
that time00:26:57
about the integrity of the country. I was both00:27:02
free and then in00:27:04
prison. Well, my life just turned out00:27:07
quite a00:27:09
lot; I communicated quite a lot with different00:27:12
Chechens of different, I mean, views00:27:17
and00:27:19
very many Chechens wrote letters to me in prison00:27:24
such I am still very00:27:27
grateful because in general the support00:27:30
was very important then, so I00:27:36
can confidently say that 20 years ago00:27:40
what was 20 10 years ago I just00:27:44
don’t know how now the00:27:46
majority of Chechen society did00:27:49
not want to leave In Russia, that00:27:53
is, people simply00:27:55
spent their personal money on00:27:58
teaching their children the Russian language, they spent00:28:01
personal money, by no means endless, on00:28:04
sending their children to study at00:28:09
universities in Moscow, St. Petersburg,00:28:11
Samaria, and so on,00:28:14
and I’m not talking about the Chechen00:28:17
gold young people who00:28:20
did it for the sake of prestige. Well, or their parents00:28:23
did it for the sake of prestige, and we saw everyone00:28:26
in all these00:28:27
Gelendvagens and so on on the streets of00:28:30
Moscow. No, I’m talking about ordinary00:28:32
working Chechens who collected00:28:35
pennies to00:28:37
send their children because they understood that00:28:39
prospects for their children Well, here are the00:28:42
prospects for life in a modern00:28:44
state, the prospects for00:28:47
getting some good profession,00:28:51
but what they could not get00:28:54
at home is connected with00:28:58
education, being part of00:29:01
Russia, and so on, and00:29:04
these people paid taxes, paid all their00:29:08
lives, paid these taxes, and received They didn’t reach the00:29:11
Russian budget. Well, or then they did00:29:13
n’t reach the Soviet budget, that’s a00:29:16
different story. But these people paid00:29:18
money to be provided with00:29:21
security, and when many of our00:29:24
wonderful guys said, well, you know, there’s00:29:28
some gang that00:29:31
seized power, but they seized00:29:33
power They00:29:34
want to secede from Russia and we have to00:29:41
fight00:29:43
because you, or we00:29:48
all took money to protect these people,00:29:52
they are the same citizens00:29:55
and if they vote to secede00:29:59
from Russia Well then, yes, there00:30:04
was a referendum I apologize the referendums00:30:08
there were completely different I00:30:10
apologize, but there00:30:12
should have been a referendum now, we are not00:30:15
talking about the current situation, now00:30:17
the situation has changed radically, but the00:30:19
referendum should be an00:30:23
informed b free and at what00:30:26
point in Chechnya after 91 was it00:30:29
possible to hold an informed b00:30:32
free referendum like this there00:30:34
was simply no opportunity and I completely agree00:30:37
that it00:30:38
was necessary. This is how it went00:30:42
and happens quite regularly in00:30:44
the UK, they have been00:30:48
preparing for a referendum for several years, in particular on the00:30:51
secession of Scotland, and voting is carried out00:30:58
carefully, the votes are counted,00:31:01
a decision is made, and those who want to00:31:04
sort of solve this problem by force of secession,00:31:08
but We remember how it ended in00:31:11
the days of00:31:13
In general, it’s quite harsh00:31:18
to say a conclusion when you look at what is00:31:21
happening now rather like I don’t know00:31:24
as a manager, probably as an effective00:31:26
manager on what the Russian00:31:29
authorities are doing on how they fight on what00:31:31
decisions they don’t make what do you think00:31:33
When you look at all this, do you00:31:36
understand logic in action?00:31:41
So you ask the question very precisely00:31:46
because I really00:31:48
can’t look at the situation as a00:31:51
politician since within myself and00:31:53
politicians of course I’m not exactly00:31:55
managers, it was a great pleasure for me00:32:00
to discover outside00:32:02
Russian Federation, what do people understand?00:32:04
How to divide these two functions in00:32:07
public administration, there are00:32:08
politicians, and there is a civil service, the00:32:11
civil service is those people who00:32:14
organize the implementation of political tasks.00:32:17
And what political tasks should be solved? This is00:32:20
decided by politicians. If we look at what00:32:23
non-politicians do, Russian00:32:27
politicians do everything. It’s clear00:32:29
that he would die As they say,00:32:37
I00:32:40
may be dissatisfied with what the managers are doing, but I00:32:43
look with respect at what the00:32:46
civil officials are doing, that is, they00:32:49
manage in the current situation to00:32:53
nevertheless maintain both00:32:56
the economy and the social economy, for example00:32:59
Nabiullina,00:33:01
I probably don’t know there Should Nabiullina say this00:33:04
or has she already become more of a political00:33:06
official or is it some other00:33:09
people? I don’t see the00:33:13
civil service so deeply, but I see that the fabric of the00:33:16
civil service within the Russian00:33:19
Federation continues to00:33:21
function at the level Well, in general,00:33:26
it’s quite civilized. This is00:33:29
still not theft we discuss corruption everything.00:33:33
We can see this in other countries, but00:33:36
in general, the fabric of civil00:33:39
administration does not disintegrate,00:33:41
regardless of what happens, we00:33:44
must understand that what we call00:33:47
the yard and what lies on top of this very00:33:52
civil service00:33:54
and what is very reminiscent of In fact,00:33:57
Putin was unable to come up with anything new00:34:00
in the Soviet year, the mystical party00:34:03
The Communist nomenklatura did not00:34:06
directly rule the state, it seemed to00:34:08
lie on top of00:34:10
normal state administration,00:34:12
the way he simply reduced the number of this00:34:16
nomenklatura but not proportionately00:34:18
increasing wealth Yes, there00:34:21
were few billionaires there in the Soviet years there’s a lot with him.00:34:24
Well, of course they work miracles, they00:34:28
work miracles,00:34:29
I have great difficulty in00:34:33
saying anything about the actions of00:34:36
the military. Because after all, I’m not an00:34:39
expert in this area. It00:34:42
turns out that the support of the regime is the same00:34:45
system liberals who00:34:47
ensure the functioning of the state00:34:52
and yes, and from this point of view, they are enemies.00:34:58
I00:35:00
know he killed, but I respect the00:35:03
work of her apparatus, as I just said.00:35:07
I know Gref, I00:35:10
respect the work of his apparatus. I know00:35:12
Kudrin, let’s00:35:15
say this about his apparatus. I don’t know anything.00:35:17
I know, but00:35:19
as a professional I treated him With00:35:22
respect, now these are enemies and in general we00:35:26
must say absolutely precisely And that00:35:28
if these people remain What is called00:35:31
in their posts,00:35:33
then they will have to sit on the bench I’m00:35:38
not saying that the00:35:39
entire Civil Service will have to00:35:43
sit on the dock or even the fact00:35:45
that it should be lustrated, I00:35:46
understand that00:35:48
we simply have nowhere to get such a00:35:51
number of specialists. They will00:35:54
work in their places, but the first students are the00:35:58
ones I’m talking about now, these are the first00:36:00
students. Of course, they are00:36:03
among a00:36:05
hundred or two of the same Putin00:36:08
those close to them will sit on the bench to be00:36:10
judged with inevitability how interesting00:36:13
such moral and ethical questions are at00:36:15
what stage does00:36:17
this responsibility begin Yes, recently00:36:21
an insider there christogruziv published00:36:24
these guys, relatively young00:36:26
IT specialists who are directing rockets Here00:36:29
they are Who are they the first students or are they the00:36:33
same officials as and people in00:36:35
the Central Bank, the Ministry of Economic Development00:36:37
or the Ministry of what there is and the00:36:41
ecology of natural resources. And where does this00:36:45
responsibility begin00:36:47
for the sake of what all this you know, Irina00:36:52
here very precisely formulated00:36:56
my essence,00:36:58
I am a manager and therefore I look at all00:37:02
issues and, in fact, in the book I00:37:05
I’m describing the issues from a pragmatic point of view,00:37:10
when we talk about who can and00:37:14
should be punished, the question is not only in00:37:18
the word necessary but also possible, that’s how many cases we00:37:21
can00:37:22
consider without an00:37:26
orgy of lawlessness starting,00:37:29
I’ll tell you we have prosecutors who00:37:32
are able to investigate honestly and00:37:35
impartially, after the change of regime00:37:39
there will be several hundred. Maybe one00:37:42
hundred, maybe two. They won’t be thousands.00:37:46
We have judges who can conduct these00:37:52
kind of00:37:53
politicized trials by the highest00:37:56
standards. There will be few of them, again,00:38:00
maybe at best several00:38:02
hundred,00:38:04
and we are with you We understand that it is00:38:06
impossible to carry out processes to punish00:38:09
people for decades. Well, a year. Well, two. Well, three.00:38:13
How many trials00:38:16
can take place during this time, but the trials of Putin’s00:38:20
entourage00:38:22
and the relevant people? Well, a couple of hundred,00:38:26
here’s a couple of hundred people00:38:30
you can punish without leaving lawlessness00:38:36
and these people will need choose precisely00:38:40
on the basis that these are the first students. These00:38:44
people are dangerous for the future of Russia and not00:38:49
punishing them is fraught with00:38:52
repetition00:38:54
of problems. As for the rest,00:38:58
you will have to say that from a00:39:00
moral point of view it is very difficult00:39:03
to leave them unpunished, but when we00:39:07
choose between a sense of00:39:09
justice, revenge and feelings00:39:13
mercy and thoughts about the future00:39:16
must be chosen Mercy thoughts about the future00:39:19
And therefore00:39:22
turning00:39:24
justice into a channel And this00:39:27
will inevitably be because Well, it’s impossible, as I will00:39:31
now explain in the00:39:32
legal field, to do what it would seem00:39:36
you want and what justice is technically00:39:39
technically impossible00:39:42
is that it’s fair00:39:44
So Yes, that’s it here you will have to00:39:46
draw a line, no matter how unpleasant it is,00:39:49
and on the other side of the00:39:52
border, by the way, an aged Sechin may end up by that time00:39:56
because, relatively00:39:58
speaking,00:40:01
I want him personally to end up00:40:05
in the dock But if a person00:40:08
is there at that time there 70 more than a year00:40:11
and there will be other people who during this time will00:40:14
become a thief again much more00:40:19
I won’t say to hell with it I will00:40:21
gnash my teeth for the rest of my life00:40:23
But I’ll00:40:25
have to come to terms with it find khabaris00:40:29
these are all these plans about the future they are00:40:32
clear On which ones including00:40:34
theoretical bases have been made, if00:40:36
we talk about Germany in Berlin, when00:40:38
you go to museums here and see how00:40:41
Germany passed through the regime00:40:45
that was because it became here there is a00:40:48
very important00:40:49
aspect called occupation, is it00:40:52
possible what you are talking about without00:40:56
external What is called intervention?00:41:00
I would say inevitably because00:41:04
I consider the likelihood of the occupation of Russia00:41:07
as00:41:09
extremely marginal That is why I am00:41:12
external intervention as I carefully00:41:13
say Yes, they are occupation Because there are00:41:18
different degrees of this external00:41:19
intervention00:41:21
intervention of the West This is one of the00:41:26
topics that I am now dealing with,00:41:30
as a matter of fact, it has00:41:32
now come out in fact, two of my books.00:41:35
Here is one book that we are talking about now,00:41:37
it is for00:41:39
Russians and about what we should do00:41:44
ourselves, and the second book is much more,00:41:48
in this sense, easy. But it is a00:41:53
conversation with the West00:41:56
because the influence of the West may be00:41:59
zero, maybe be very significant,00:42:02
but at the same time,00:42:04
what I’m trying to convince the West is00:42:10
that the mistake will look for a00:42:12
good tsar for Russia. And there are those00:42:15
who want it, and the second thing is that the mistake00:42:19
will00:42:21
want the00:42:23
real complete collapse of Russia. There are00:42:26
also those who want it in the West. I think00:42:30
they are more afraid of this than fire Well, if00:42:33
we take the overwhelming part of the West,00:42:36
or this is certain, but if we take the00:42:39
radical part,00:42:41
then Yes, of course, and there are not so few such people.00:42:44
Mostly in neighboring countries,00:42:48
but even in the United States. In general,00:42:50
such00:42:53
sentiments are participation or are you there?00:42:56
It is small and it is very important that00:42:59
it does not increase,00:43:03
but again perhaps00:43:06
returning to your question for a second00:43:09
Yes, I believe that it is quite possible and00:43:12
there are quite a few countries that00:43:14
have rebuilt themselves within themselves without occupation.00:43:18
But in particular, if we look00:43:21
at Great Britain, it had to go00:43:24
through a whole series of extreme difficult00:43:27
historical processes, some00:43:29
came more than once,00:43:32
nevertheless, the issue was resolved in France,00:43:36
exactly the same situation without any00:43:38
occupation,00:43:43
self-liberation processes took place there, which00:43:44
later became an example for the whole world.00:43:47
Although if you look inside, they00:43:50
were terrible, bloody,00:43:52
there is a science that we are all above in00:43:56
a sense, they laughed, but not science,00:43:58
of course, rather a comic name and such00:44:01
Yes, Kremlinology, when in the order of00:44:05
entering the Mausoleum, it means that00:44:07
some deep-reaching conclusions were drawn. Now, if00:44:10
you play a little in This is who in your00:44:13
opinion today The backbone of governing the country00:44:21
is Mishustim, without any doubt, and a man of the00:44:25
utmost degree, if we are talking00:44:28
specifically about the civil service, a00:44:30
person who is not without talent from the point of view of00:44:34
management is a00:44:35
person removed from00:44:39
[music]00:44:42
direct political struggle00:44:45
in the office.00:44:51
At the same time, I must say that I00:44:55
have such respect for00:44:59
work00:45:00
in Moscow and St. Petersburg, too00:45:08
what is happening now00:45:11
to keep00:45:15
the system from completely collapsing,00:45:18
and it is clear that now00:45:20
everything that can be pulled out of this system is being pulled out of this system.00:45:23
But in general, this is worth a lot. Once again,00:45:26
I don’t want to talk about individuals. It’s difficult for me to00:45:28
say what role Beglov00:45:31
plays there in the mayor’s office of St. Petersburg. the00:45:36
civil service in St. Petersburg00:45:39
continues to function, this is generally00:45:41
very important, the same thing happens in00:45:44
other cities, so when they tell me00:45:46
that in Russia there is no government, the00:45:48
government in Russia is only bandits, and00:45:51
so on. So let's divide the00:45:55
Russian Government into Russian00:45:57
officials in the narrow sense, that is, those who00:46:01
are engaged in the civil service, they00:46:03
normally carry out their work in the00:46:07
most difficult conditions in which other00:46:09
civil services might have already00:46:11
broken down; there is a yard there of about 6 thousand00:46:14
bandits, that is, several hundred00:46:18
Putin’s close associates and several thousand00:46:20
people who support them, who are00:46:23
constantly for corruption reasons,00:46:26
and today already to unfortunately, for00:46:28
bloodthirsty reasons, they are interfering in the00:46:31
work of this civil service, they are destroying00:46:33
it, the fact that it opposes them is00:46:37
generally worth a lot, that is, it directly00:46:39
opposes Well, when I say00:46:42
resists, this is not meant,00:46:46
but people00:46:48
fight with them, it’s just you know,00:46:52
you have over an umbrella with your head Yes,00:46:57
they drink on it with a knife. I don’t know, they throw00:47:00
various hot objects at it, it tightens00:47:03
somehow and still protects you from00:47:07
the rain. So you think, Well, an umbrella. How long will00:47:09
you hold out like this? At what point00:47:12
people, for example, will simply stop receiving a00:47:14
pension? Here it is It’s just that it will stop00:47:17
reaching them. Here’s how the mobilization00:47:20
was carried out now, it was clear that in this part there is a00:47:23
civil service, but it is not a civil00:47:26
service, of course the military registration and enlistment office, it just doesn’t work. It does00:47:29
n’t work now. Imagine00:47:32
that this way it will stop working in the field of00:47:34
issuing pensions or in the field of supplying00:47:38
cold water in cities or00:47:41
in some other similar00:47:43
direction But00:47:46
[music]00:47:50
That is, you don’t think that this is00:47:52
complicity in some kind of work, for example,00:47:56
today the mayor of a large city is people00:47:58
who perform a managerial function,00:48:00
they are not accomplices of all this00:48:04
again, this is impossible say So, in00:48:08
the abstract, there are accomplices, I don’t00:48:12
know the fugitives, he’s there, what he’s actually00:48:15
doing, after all, I don’t have00:48:18
Mary from St. Petersburg directly, but those people who are00:48:21
engaged in their00:48:23
professional work. They, of course,00:48:27
I may00:48:29
not be happy, I would like it all to00:48:32
end faster But on the other hand,00:48:34
I understand that inflicting such a blow on the00:48:37
Russian population is like depriving them of00:48:39
cold water, for example, or what they00:48:41
are doing now is depriving the00:48:44
population of Ukraine of energy,00:48:47
well, that’s just stupid terrorism, that’s00:48:52
stupid terrorism, which in the 21st century00:48:55
simply should not have a place but it’s not00:48:59
necessary to repeat after the freak everything00:49:01
that he does.00:49:03
Mikhail Borisovich is another topic before00:49:05
which you need to make a spoiler. I think00:49:07
Irina and I, in general, are the people who00:49:10
unequivocally reacted to the beginning of this00:49:13
war, you. I remember crying on the air of one00:49:16
of the Ukrainian channels, it seems Well,00:49:19
today when you see the news, for example,00:49:21
like the new Ambassador of Ukraine to Germany.00:49:24
Those Russians00:49:26
who are fleeing from the war should not be allowed to speak; they are not00:49:28
running because they are against the war, because they00:49:30
are saving themselves. Or, for example, there is an00:49:33
initiative of all00:49:35
all the films connected in one way or another with00:49:39
Russia, no matter the position of the authors of00:49:41
all the artists there or ban How do you00:49:44
react to this?00:49:45
Look, firstly, I must say that of course00:49:48
I now00:49:52
understand that in the first days after the00:49:56
start of the war, I was in an inadequate00:49:59
state, just really inadequate, that00:50:02
is, for me this is a00:50:05
big tragedy in life. In general, I00:50:10
have largely lost my00:50:13
civic self-identification For 60 years I00:50:17
almost00:50:19
perceived myself as a00:50:22
Russian person and00:50:26
I had no00:50:29
dissonance with the fact that my entire family left00:50:33
Ukraine at no point did I think about it.00:50:38
But after February 24,00:50:43
everything just collapsed inside for me and let’s just00:50:48
say00:50:51
I was it’s hard00:50:54
I hope that I dealt with it, but I00:50:57
apologize to everyone to whom I00:51:00
said too much and who saw me in a00:51:05
different form. In general, they are used to seeing me, what’s00:51:11
happening now, I00:51:15
understand, yes, that is, I can’t say00:51:18
that I’m not I understand the Ukrainians, their00:51:21
situation is the same as it was for me,00:51:25
it’s just stretched out in time00:51:27
because one of them at what moment00:51:30
heard from their loved ones that one of00:51:34
them00:51:35
from their family For friends is no longer00:51:39
alive, but we don’t know And we must00:51:41
understand that this is such a00:51:45
funeral extended over time, that00:51:48
every day someone is buried. Well, that is, you00:51:50
can’t approach people in such a00:51:54
situation with00:51:57
ordinary standards, what can I do00:52:00
to help00:52:03
Russians who are now leaving the country00:52:06
and trying to adapt outside of00:52:09
Russia? I do because I don’t consider00:52:13
these people to be traitors, not cowards, not00:52:19
just someone. Well, these are the people in00:52:24
whose place tens of millions of Russians would like to be.00:52:27
I think Judging by00:52:30
the questions, but not everyone has such an00:52:33
opportunity, but these people do00:52:35
they are more active they may be00:52:38
younger they may be more00:52:40
enterprising But now it’s also hard for them00:52:43
and with this it’s easy to understand that00:52:50
our opportunities here are now00:52:53
limited, it’s very difficult to00:52:55
explain to people that not all Russians00:53:00
support Putin and not all Russians are for00:53:03
the war and polls on the00:53:06
speeches of different people don’t help00:53:09
us with this, it doesn’t help us with this.00:53:12
But we try to help when they00:53:16
tell me, but what are you doing there, so00:53:18
to speak, signing a declaration00:53:20
that helps us say about some people00:53:23
that Well, let’s treat them00:53:26
normally because although they don’t have00:53:28
posts on00:53:30
the Internet00:53:33
But they don’t have posts Not because00:53:36
they don’t00:53:38
know how to write publicly, they don’t know how to speak on00:53:43
camera, there are more people like that than those00:53:46
who can But they are normal people00:53:49
and they tell us Well, this won’t solve the00:53:52
problem for everyone by leaving00:53:54
Yes I I can help,00:53:59
we have a project called the Ark, which is run by someone00:54:02
like Anastasia Burakova, she worked for00:54:06
many years, for several years, let’s say,00:54:08
she worked in open Russia, now she’s00:54:11
working on a project. Well,00:54:14
they went there00:54:17
and there are about 100 thousand people there on a regular basis now,00:54:21
but it’s clear that she00:54:24
can’t, her volunteers and We all together00:54:28
cannot help them all, but00:54:31
hundreds of thousands of people are helped and Well, in00:54:36
general, what we can do is to00:54:38
communicate with understanding, treat this00:54:42
statement of00:54:44
Ukraine as far as you think it’s00:54:46
fair. Well, of course, in my opinion, it’s00:54:50
unfair, but once again, well, it’s00:54:53
stupid to demand balance and00:54:57
pragmatism from people whose00:54:59
loved ones are killed. Well, what are we talking about?00:55:02
What should I say to a person? Why don’t you00:55:06
think Pragmatically? Well, for the first five00:55:08
days I couldn’t think Pragmatically either.00:55:15
what am I going to tell them?00:55:19
Don’t be people, robots. It’s impossible00:55:22
to be robots.00:55:25
Ira. Yes, no. What do I agree with?00:55:29
You know, you can forgive these people;00:55:31
another thing, the Baltic countries are00:55:33
surprising, this is this, this is another00:55:35
question. Well, you know, all the same, there too00:55:38
here too there is a historical experience that is00:55:40
difficult to simply erase from memory, I00:55:43
talked to them. I recently spoke00:55:45
at a00:55:48
business conference in Lithuania,00:55:53
several hundred people00:55:56
representing Lithuanian business gathered there, and I00:55:59
told them that it seems to me that it00:56:02
was a00:56:04
mistake for a00:56:08
Russian programmer to refuse the opportunity00:56:11
now00:56:13
[music]00:56:16
come to Lithuania and continue to work00:56:20
there,00:56:21
I know, I spoke about this directly, that00:56:24
you tried to00:56:26
pass this law, but Lithuanian00:56:29
society, with the understanding that it00:56:31
would be beneficial,00:56:32
Lithuanian society00:56:34
gave an answer to this request, we don’t want this,00:56:40
Yes, I say I I told them I’m saying, for00:56:43
me, as a former entrepreneur, it’s00:56:45
clear, so to speak, that you missed an00:56:47
absolutely00:56:49
magnificent opportunity. I’m offended, kind of00:56:53
offended for you, but at the same time, Okay, if00:56:57
Lithuanian society made such a decision.00:56:58
But what can be done, it made such a00:57:01
decision. Thank you very much for coming out00:57:05
we answered questions in communication, these were00:57:07
morning turns, by the way, after00:57:10
us on Echo, Boris Grebenshchikov’s balloon00:57:13
and those who hear us through the application should not be00:57:17
turned off under any circumstances Well, everyone00:57:19
so far, I was very very glad to see you We are00:57:23
also very, veryDescription:
Почему после ухода Путина в России может сохраниться авторитаризм? Чем критически важна целостность страны в границах до 2014 года? Почему системные либералы - враги? Возможны ли перемены в России без внешнего вмешательства? Почему не все управленцы в государстве - плохие? Обо всём этом и многом другом в Утреннем развороте Максим Курников и Ирина Баблоян беседуют со специальным гостем - общественным деятелем и автором книги "Как убить дракона" Михаилом Ходорковским*. * – российские власти считают иностранным агентом Поддержать Живой Гвоздь: https://pay.cloudtips.ru/p/7edd7c0e Мобильное приложение "Эха": любимые программы в формате радиоприёмника. Простой интерфейс. Работа в фоновом режиме. Расписание эфиров. Скачать: в AppStore: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/%D1%8D%D1%85%D0%BE-online/id1639907671 в PlayMarket: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=online.echofm.app Книга "Как убить дракона" доступна по ссылке: https://dragonbook.khodorkovsky.com/ Подписывайтесь на Ирину Баблоян в Телеграме: https://t.me/IrinaBabloyan Подписывайтесь на Максима Курникова в соцсетях: https://t.me/kournikov https://twitter.com/kmvir 🔔 Последние новости и анонсы программ с YouTube-канала «Живой гвоздь», а также контент от наших постоянных гостей и экспертов на официальном телеграм-канале: https://t.me/livegvozd Подписаться на Youtube-канал Дилетант: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuIE7-5QzeAR6EdZXwDRwuQ?sub_confirmation=1 📌 Живой гвоздь в аудиоформате: Яндекс.Музыка: https://music.yandex.ru/album/22141653?dir=desc Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9-%D0%B3%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B4%D1%8C/id1616175210 Google Подкасты: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zb3VuZGNsb3VkLmNvbS91c2Vycy9zb3VuZGNsb3VkOnVzZXJzOjEwOTk2NzA5MDUvc291bmRzLnJzcw?sa=X&ved=0CAIQ4aUDahcKEwigxO3Eweb2AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQEQ Магазин "Дилетант": https://diletant.shop/
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