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00:00:00
[Music] at the 20th Party Congress of the Chinese Communist Party
00:00:04
in October last year, Regime
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Pink swore the Chinese would be
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hard times and talked about big problems
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that lie on the way. What did
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he mean by that? What did he
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mean by that was that the Chinese would support themselves in
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this big one? They should
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continue to pull together the rise they have had so that
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they should not now believe that
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everything has already been achieved after 40 years of
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rise, but that they have only
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gone half the way, so to speak, and now they
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have to look further and see that China is really
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becoming a world power, he has Did he
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just mean that in economic policy terms or
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did he see on the horizon an
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emerging conflict with the
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USA and Europe? Well on the
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horizon it's good that this intensifying
00:00:52
conflict is already taking place every day,
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a power struggle between the
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rising world power and the
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established or incumbent
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world power USA
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Yes, every day, so I do
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n't think you have to tell people that,
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but of
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course he is
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worried that people will become too comfortable,
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that they may believe that
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everything
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comes by itself, this economic
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rise and that you don't have to get
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involved yourself, so to speak This is especially true
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for the coastal regions and
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people are already relatively well developed
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and are already thinking about
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what a work-life balance can look like,
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i.e. how to
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bring the quality of life and working hours into a reasonable relationship The
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current
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state of our economy, our
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politics, many considerations that go in the
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direction of a
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post-growth society,
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work-life balance may have just
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addressed this. The question of
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meaning is becoming more important than the question of
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work at any price. The question of
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sustainability is more important than that of
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prosperity growth Such discussions
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are now also being held in China.
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Of course, politics has
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just switched from growth at
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any price towards sustainable
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growth. This is a very important
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political step that expressly does
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not mean more growth at any
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price, but rather these major climate issues
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that are becoming issues now Priced in, so to speak,
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and
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the economy is being
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restructured accordingly so that it becomes more sustainable. They
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have written many books about China
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and in a very
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extensive book
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about the future and about China that they
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wrote in 2018,
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they try to show how the world
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is in a transition from
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a
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20th century completely dominated by the USA
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to a multipolar
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world order in the 21st century, would you like to
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briefly
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describe in essence what this
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dynamic of change is from your point of view?
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You can actually say quite simply that
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an epoch is coming to an end, namely
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the epoch in which the minority of the
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West, first it was the Europeans
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until the middle of the 20th century then the
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Americans, an era in which the
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minority of the West
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was able to determine the rules of the game for the majority of the world,
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that was the rule in the past
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centuries and it looks
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like this era is coming to an end
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in favor of a multipolar world order
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in which the exiting countries, China,
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India and not forgetting Africa,
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are increasingly able to
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make their own decisions and are
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no longer dependent on the decisions made by the
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rules of the West -
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they describe the Americans in this regard
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and the Europeans with the nobility
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who at some point have to realize that
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a minority cannot decide over a majority,
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they relate this to
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the global world situation and say that the
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minority of the West still determines the
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central rules of the game
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militarily to a not
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insignificant extent everywhere on this planet
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Economically, financial markets, for example,
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they dominate the large organizations,
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the World Trade Organization, the World Bank and
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that's stupid, actually, it shouldn't be like that
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because if you are convinced of Western values
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then you are
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convinced that one-man one wood, so everyone
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has a voice and who has more people
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He also has more votes and then
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a fifth of the world's population
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living in China (1.4 billion
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people) would have to have a completely different weight in the
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world than what China has so far,
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but many are also afraid of that
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and think, well, with One Man
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one where we somehow don't see it in foreign policy the same
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way we
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see it in domestic policy and that's
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the big problem. I believe that there is
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a gravity in this direction,
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just as there was a gravity in the 19th century
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against the nobility and the
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citizens in the nation states
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It was nice with you, dear
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nobles, but we now want to
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decide for ourselves and my impression is that
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we are currently in
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a similar process globally and I do
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n't see that the West still
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has the strength to
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maintain its monopoly to determine the rules of the game
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In the last two or three years it has become
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very clear that more and more
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countries want to represent their interests and
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their ideas independently and
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that a multipolar
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world order is now actually emerging and our dilemma
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is that on the one hand we
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are convinced of our values ​​as the nobles
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of the world and on the other hand But they also
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have to admit that the situation in which the
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minority determines the rules of the game for the
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majority does not
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correspond to our values ​​and
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we are in this dilemma right now
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and are trying to
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make a little entrance for ourselves by, so to
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speak, at the expense
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of our group and measure the newcomers
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against the worst in their group and
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then say, well, they're not ready yet,
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they still need our care,
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it's a huge
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rethinking process that we're
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facing in this regard, so I had
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Francis Fukuyama as a guest here some time ago.
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Fukuyama became famous with the thesis of the
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end of history, so Hegel's formula
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of the end of history applied to
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the time after the collapse of
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state socialism, he said
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now here in 1991 92 after the
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collapse of the Soviet Union after the
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fall of the Wall 89 we see there is only
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one really superior system These are
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the liberal democracies and
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capitalism and liberal democracy
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together are the best system that
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humanity has known here and now
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it is only a matter of time until
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the entire world will at some point consist of such
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well-functioning liberal and
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democratic capitalist systems,
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which we have had for quite a long time
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gladly bought and now we see that
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the most successful economic nation in the
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world if you look at the rise in the
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last few decades is a
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mixture of communism and
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predatory capitalism and there is
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no liberal democracy there, which
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means that our firm belief is that
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communists cannot
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do business successfully now
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have to turn into the opposite that this leads to
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great uncertainty in the West
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is understandable first of all
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can we make this
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uncertainty productive what do we have to
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learn now we have to learn to see the world from
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the perspective of these dropouts
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that is actually quite simple We
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just have different ideas about whether
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China is really communist.
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We could
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talk about it for a long time or even make a small
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suggestion. So my
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suggestion would be Karl Marx
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defined communism as a maximum of
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political freedom with a minimum
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of economic freedom.
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China has a maximum of
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economic freedom with a
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minimum of political freedom so
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basically it is the opposite of
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communism
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yes that is a fascinating explanation
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but you could also
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make it even simpler and say how
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Chinese are in the end pragmatic and
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the most important thing for China is actually
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that it will become the Middle Kingdom again,
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that it will become a world power again, which has
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already been the case and the ideology is
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actually only a means to an end and
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if the ideology, so to speak,
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stood in the way of advancement because, for example, one
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would insist on state-owned companies,
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then and you saw that in the history of
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China then you would say,
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well, it doesn't work like that,
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we have to correct it and so there was an
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opening to the market economy that
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actually does
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n't have that much to do with the communist ideas,
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they would actually have Chinese leadership
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no convinced
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communists at all
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I think that's saying too much
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again I think there is something that is more
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important and
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the most important thing is that China
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becomes what it once was after these 150
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years of bankruptcies, bad luck and mishaps, you have a
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mixture of arrogance and
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Arrogance in the 19th century
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just underestimated the industrial revolution in
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Europe
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and got into great
00:10:05
economic difficulties as a result.
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Mao held everything together again at the last moment,
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but China was
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no longer able to
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rise economically on its own. Mao has
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this
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brutal campaigns were
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chased through the country in the hope or based
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on the conviction that China would
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often be able to achieve this on its own, which would be enough for the middle,
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but that wasn't the case and then
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his successor had to come who thinks jaoping
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and he had a very bitter one at first
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News that a
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fellow countryman said we are too weak,
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we can no longer do it alone, we
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have to let the capitalists help us from the imperialists
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and that is
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exactly this pragmatism
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that defines this country and
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is probably one of the secrets of success that you just ca
00:11:01
n't stays stuck in ideology
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but
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always adapts development to pragmatic
00:11:10
requirements. That doesn't mean
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that there aren't ideological
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dispositions that we
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can then call communist and that you ca
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n't get beyond, but in the end the
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most important thing is this rise, so that's
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the explanation, so to speak
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that communism in China is also subordinated to a
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higher-level pragmatism, as is the case
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with the
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famous Chinese Confucianism,
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i.e. the idea that there
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must be a sense of community, a
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metaphysical concept of values ​​that
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must be shared together, as a
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kind of against the
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elbow society and
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capitalism has
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revived Confucianism, which
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was frowned upon in China for a long time, you need
00:12:05
it as icing on the cake, so to speak,
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so that it doesn't fall apart.
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The question is, what is it about in the
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end and in the end it is about a different
00:12:14
relationship between Individual and
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community that's actually what
00:12:20
capitalism and Confucianism are biting at
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each other or actually
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yes but the Chinese are getting it done so
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on the one hand so to speak so
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this the elbow society that is so to
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speak the well-being of society
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is only served by the egoism of the
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Individuals, so to speak, have
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Adam Smith's formula for success in capitalism on the
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one hand and on the other hand
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this does not prevail over the other
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places in the harmony of values, yes, how
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does this work together in China, yes Chinese
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politicians would say that is exactly
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our job to
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tabulate this
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The crucial point, so to speak, is to allow individualism in the market economy on the
00:13:00
one hand
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because it has been understood that
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innovation is only possible
00:13:10
through market economy
00:13:12
competition that is economically promoted
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on the one hand, and on the other
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hand to see that, so to speak,
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the individuals are the successful
00:13:25
individuals
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Don't undermine the interests of the community,
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that's the way it is in the description,
00:13:32
it sounds very positive and to
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a certain extent a
00:13:36
conservative German politician will say
00:13:38
that's actually good and right, we
00:13:40
want that too, on the one hand we want
00:13:41
successful capitalism and On
00:13:43
the other hand, we want values,
00:13:45
traditions, we are
00:13:48
complained about everywhere, that being mean is being lost.
00:13:50
In the turbo-capitalist
00:13:52
society, there is also
00:13:53
something relatively similar from the conservative side, but at the
00:13:55
same time we do
00:13:57
n't actually look at China as saying that
00:14:01
they have similar ones Problems like ours
00:14:02
are actually completely different
00:14:04
and they are a fundamental threat
00:14:07
to our value system and the key word
00:14:09
he uses for this is human rights, there
00:14:11
is no freedom of the press in China, there
00:14:15
is the oppression of minorities
00:14:16
like the clocks, there is a lot of
00:14:20
interference with private freedom which
00:14:23
wouldn't be possible in our state, there is a very harsh judiciary and
00:14:27
so on and so forth, so there are
00:14:28
many things that we in China criticize out of our
00:14:30
awareness of values.
00:14:32
You think it's right and legitimate
00:14:35
that we do that,
00:14:37
but of course At the same time they also say we
00:14:40
shouldn't act so arrogantly,
00:14:42
yes that's clear, so arrogance
00:14:46
basically means post-colonialism, that means
00:14:48
we say our idea is
00:14:51
the right one and you dear Chinese
00:14:54
have to get to where we already are,
00:14:56
but I don't think that's the case more contemporary,
00:14:59
we can no longer force the Chinese,
00:15:01
nor the Chinese government, to
00:15:03
do what we
00:15:04
want, but we can and must
00:15:10
convince you of our values ​​and values
00:15:17
We actually do this every day in a democracy
00:15:19
anyway, but you see
00:15:21
on the Chinese side a willingness
00:15:22
to talk, of course, okay if
00:15:24
it doesn't come from above,
00:15:27
if it's not arrogant, they
00:15:29
are of course very sensitive
00:15:31
to what in what tone
00:15:36
these former colonies are colonial masters
00:15:40
Talk to them and China was
00:15:42
colonized by the Europeans by
00:15:45
Americans,
00:15:48
but that doesn't mean that you
00:15:52
can't convince them of certain
00:15:54
things. They even adopted the European
00:15:56
data protection law almost one-to-
00:15:58
one because they said it makes
00:15:59
sense to practice that too, well They
00:16:02
practice it in the relationship between
00:16:03
consumers and companies and
00:16:05
I would almost say,
00:16:07
of course, not yet in the relationship between the
00:16:09
individual and the state. The state is taking
00:16:12
great care of it and, for example,
00:16:14
it is now our job to explain
00:16:17
why this is not a good thing in the long term
00:16:20
if we But trying to force
00:16:26
the Chinese to follow a certain direction through sanctions, so to speak,
00:16:29
will simply no longer
00:16:30
work because they are already
00:16:32
too strong and
00:16:34
too independent for politicians. For
00:16:37
Western politicians, it is of course
00:16:39
easy to impose sanctions, which is
00:16:41
much easier than persuading, but
00:16:43
we We always have to ask ourselves the question,
00:16:45
for example with the issue of
00:16:49
Shinjang, how do we deal with the
00:16:50
Muslim minority in Hong Kong,
00:16:53
how do we deal with the civil movement there,
00:16:55
many other issues of censorship, you
00:16:58
just mentioned it? We
00:17:00
actually have to ask ourselves the question of what can be done What
00:17:02
we are doing is that the situation of the
00:17:05
people who suffer under these
00:17:08
circumstances is now improving and
00:17:11
that the
00:17:12
data protection rules apply to the relationship between
00:17:15
consumers and companies,
00:17:16
but that they do not apply to the relationship with the
00:17:17
state. One of the biggest
00:17:19
bugbears of Chinese
00:17:21
domestic policy is the social credit system that we
00:17:23
now have I
00:17:25
have heard so many contradictory things in my life, so
00:17:27
this is that you go and
00:17:29
monitor your population and that they
00:17:31
have a certain number of points and that they
00:17:32
can lose these points if they
00:17:34
violate the rules and
00:17:36
misbehave, this is practiced, no, these
00:17:40
were pilot tests that have you
00:17:42
try it out, but it's not so
00:17:45
much the question of whether it already exists
00:17:48
or not, the question is conceivable
00:17:52
and you have to find answers with the
00:17:55
new technological means and is it to
00:17:58
be expected that the Chinese government will, I
00:18:00
think, have it in Shanghai
00:18:02
tested it, so they did several small
00:18:05
field tests, but
00:18:09
surprisingly it has
00:18:13
n't been rolled out centrally so far and it
00:18:16
's also true that the topic has fizzled out a bit,
00:18:17
but that doesn't mean
00:18:21
that you don't have to talk about it and
00:18:23
that you were aware of the risks must be what
00:18:25
arises from this and which may
00:18:27
also be underestimated by the population in China
00:18:31
in view of the new
00:18:35
technological possibilities that these
00:18:38
many cameras also offer, which
00:18:43
offer electronic payment with the smartphone via Wechat and so
00:18:46
on and so forth.
00:18:50
We also have to have our ideas and
00:18:54
also our history, simply
00:18:58
enter into dialogue and
00:19:00
warn of risks, so they
00:19:03
obviously work the other
00:19:04
way around, so we are relatively easily
00:19:06
prepared to take big risks when it comes
00:19:08
to companies but relatively do
00:19:11
n't want the state to
00:19:12
invade our privacy and China is
00:19:15
now practicing it, so to speak On the other hand,
00:19:16
companies are
00:19:18
perhaps even more sensitive than we are,
00:19:20
but when it comes to the state, they say, well,
00:19:22
that's important and that has
00:19:24
progressed. How does the Chinese
00:19:25
population feel about it?
00:19:31
have a different
00:19:33
relationship with the state than we believe
00:19:35
because they have had this 40-year rise.
00:19:38
For them, the state is now a
00:19:41
must. Of course, this cannot
00:19:43
be generalized to everyone, but for
00:19:46
the majority the state is
00:19:48
an institution of this
00:19:51
rise So on
00:19:53
the one hand we have this huge
00:19:54
success story of having freed a lot of people
00:19:56
from bitter poverty, but of
00:19:58
course we are still light years
00:20:03
away in countries like Germany, the USA and so on when it comes to the
00:20:05
average standard of living of the
00:20:06
population and also
00:20:08
certain certain ones Freedoms are concerned when we
00:20:10
look at press censorship when it
00:20:13
comes to the fact that the party and the state
00:20:18
can intervene in the legal system at any time. The legal system has
00:20:20
improved dramatically, but this
00:20:22
possibility for politics to intervene in the rule of law,
00:20:25
the possibility of
00:20:26
overriding the rule of law is still
00:20:28
there and I believe something What we have to learn
00:20:30
is that there are both
00:20:32
these still
00:20:36
strong restrictions on
00:20:38
personal freedoms on the one
00:20:40
hand and on the other hand this
00:20:42
incredible
00:20:44
increase in personal freedom and we
00:20:47
have to learn to think and see that at the same time
00:20:51
and if we don't do that
00:20:52
then we misjudge China and
00:20:56
then we also develop wrong
00:20:58
strategies for dealing with these new ones. They
00:21:01
still use the word yes,
00:21:04
so they say, there are still strong
00:21:07
restrictions on the legal
00:21:10
level and there are still strong
00:21:12
possibilities for the state to intervene in
00:21:14
human privacy It still
00:21:16
sounds like Fukuyama, so it
00:21:19
sounds as if you
00:21:21
were saying, well, the Chinese are now
00:21:22
in a gigantic catch-up rally
00:21:24
that will continue for perhaps another 10 or 20
00:21:26
years and then the
00:21:28
standard of living will have risen to such an extent that it is
00:21:31
logical The next process is that
00:21:33
they
00:21:36
will have freedoms similar to those in the West. Do you believe that so
00:21:39
yes, they are also human beings and
00:21:42
with a certain level of developmental
00:21:46
maturity they will demand certain freedoms, whether
00:21:51
you can say that it's only
00:21:53
ten or 20 years or whether it's longer
00:21:55
This is a question that is very
00:21:57
difficult to answer because in
00:21:59
1.4 billion people there are
00:22:02
people who still live like they did in the 19th
00:22:03
century and others who live in
00:22:06
this basically further than we do in the 21st
00:22:08
century in South China in Shinjin
00:22:12
I wrote my last book about the new Silicon Valley,
00:22:16
many things are much more modern,
00:22:20
and that also means that these
00:22:23
people in these regions
00:22:26
claim and
00:22:28
get greater freedom than in the more backward
00:22:32
regions,
00:22:33
but I think the direction of development
00:22:40
is similar in the West with an
00:22:44
important caveat
00:22:48
I suspect that there will always be a different
00:22:50
relationship between the
00:22:51
individual and the community because that is
00:22:54
something that runs through all Asian
00:22:55
societies, even through
00:22:57
very mature democracies like Japan
00:23:02
South Korea,
00:23:03
the interest in the community or
00:23:08
the interest in oneself as an individual
00:23:11
In the sense of taking back the community,
00:23:13
the size will at some point become Japan,
00:23:15
I would like Germany, Japan will be,
00:23:18
yes, I don't know, I think China
00:23:20
will become something completely of its own and we have to be
00:23:22
careful with these comparisons
00:23:26
because I think China is not a model for
00:23:29
other countries either It's so unusual,
00:23:31
so the size on the one hand,
00:23:34
then it was already a world power, it was
00:23:37
already, um, a country that
00:23:40
advanced the world's innovation,
00:23:43
these are all, so to speak,
00:23:45
big differences from other countries to
00:23:48
India where the situation is completely different a
00:23:50
basically artificially
00:23:52
created structure has completely different
00:23:54
problems it is much further
00:23:56
back economically I think we have to learn to
00:24:06
understand China as the Chinese development path as an independent one and we have to understand
00:24:09
what this development path looks like because
00:24:12
otherwise we
00:24:14
cannot adapt our strategies accordingly
00:24:17
because for For us, it's about
00:24:27
bringing as much of the values ​​we hold dear into this new world order as possible.
00:24:30
We used to be at the table
00:24:32
where the rules of the world
00:24:35
were agreed upon and we
00:24:37
decided who sat at it first the
00:24:38
Europeans then in the second half of the
00:24:41
20th century the Americans today it is
00:24:45
no longer the case today the
00:24:46
Europeans no longer automatically have a
00:24:48
place at this table
00:24:51
and that is why this alternative of
00:24:54
values ​​or economics is an alternative
00:24:58
that steers you in the wrong direction
00:25:00
because Only if we are economically strong
00:25:04
do we still have a role at all
00:25:07
when it comes to
00:25:15
agreeing on the values ​​of the world order in the new rules of the game of the world order
00:25:24
no longer ask anyone to come to the table,
00:25:27
it's just interesting that they are now telling the
00:25:28
story of China in relation
00:25:30
to the West as the story of a
00:25:32
newcomer who is now rising in the club of the
00:25:34
established and who has
00:25:37
undoubtedly come to stay, yes
00:25:39
and always cut a bigger slice of the
00:25:42
cake China was already there and
00:25:44
has now China has benefited enormously
00:25:46
from globalization not only that
00:25:48
the Chinese sell their products everywhere
00:25:49
and make everything church for us
00:25:51
and also
00:25:53
make more and more of their own products we sell
00:25:55
ten cars in In Germany,
00:25:57
four will be sold to China,
00:25:58
which means that the West has become more and more
00:26:00
dependent on China. Now
00:26:02
we are currently experiencing a political
00:26:05
situation in which, triggered by the
00:26:08
Ukraine war, the bipolar
00:26:11
world order is neither the big issue,
00:26:13
that is, from Washington's point of view
00:26:16
but that is also the narrative of the Europeans,
00:26:17
we are now in a fight
00:26:20
between the Western democracies and
00:26:22
the so-called auto district,
00:26:25
which is Russia and China and so
00:26:27
on, everything is more or less the same
00:26:28
and that is again a bipolar
00:26:30
world order, capitalism versus
00:26:33
communism The
00:26:36
big narrative at the moment is not
00:26:38
the story of established and
00:26:39
rising stars but rather it is the Western
00:26:41
value system against autocracy
00:26:44
in Asia. The idea of ​​rising
00:26:48
is stronger than the idea or the
00:26:51
difference between democracy and autocracy.
00:26:54
Asia has just become one of the
00:26:57
largest free trade zones in the world
00:26:58
have come together, there are even the
00:27:00
Australians in there who are arguing with the
00:27:02
Chinese, there are the Japanese in
00:27:05
there, the Indians are
00:27:07
n't in there yet by the way, they've
00:27:09
already said, so to speak, the door isn't closed,
00:27:11
but there are very different
00:27:15
countries
00:27:16
with very different political ones
00:27:19
Systems and different
00:27:21
levels of development and
00:27:22
different religions and
00:27:24
different sizes
00:27:26
come together to form a free trade zone
00:27:29
under one keyword and that is we
00:27:32
are the rising stars, which means that
00:27:33
in perspective it doesn't matter
00:27:35
whether a country is democratic, autocratic
00:27:38
or automatic.
00:27:42
Feeling for Europe is important
00:27:46
In the relationship between
00:27:47
South Korea and China, so to speak, the issue of
00:27:52
rising together is stronger than the
00:27:55
issue of the South Koreans
00:27:56
being a democracy and the Chinese having an
00:27:59
authoritarian system. That doesn't mean that
00:28:02
as a neighboring country you think everything that
00:28:05
China does is good, that doesn't mean that
00:28:08
you feel uneasy either There is a feeling in the face of
00:28:10
this giant that is spreading
00:28:12
more and more in the South China Sea
00:28:14
and cheekily occupying one
00:28:16
island after the other
00:28:20
and declaring it a Chinese
00:28:24
terror,
00:28:28
but in the end
00:28:30
pragmatism wins and you
00:28:33
decide to work together because
00:28:35
you share this feeling of advancement
00:28:37
and because you share a feeling that is now becoming
00:28:41
more and more visible, namely that you
00:28:44
can make decisions yourself without
00:28:50
being forced in one direction or the other by the West and
00:28:52
that is of course a
00:28:56
self-confidence that is emerging that
00:28:59
I now manifest more and more strongly. I
00:29:01
want that because this is a question that
00:29:04
concerns me a lot.
00:29:07
My impression was, or is, that in
00:29:12
a globalization process as you have
00:29:14
described and are now
00:29:15
describing, we will transition into a multipolar
00:29:18
world order in,
00:29:20
of course, a country like China
00:29:22
with 1, 4 billion people and
00:29:24
increasing economic power
00:29:27
demands a larger amount, which by the way would
00:29:29
n't be a bad thing if the cake
00:29:31
got bigger, so if it's
00:29:33
not at the expense of prosperity, so to speak, it's
00:29:35
a question where you
00:29:36
can discuss for a long time whether that's the case or
00:29:39
not That's how it was, so
00:29:41
to speak, the classic narrative now
00:29:43
we have the war in Ukraine now
00:29:44
we have the narrative of the fight of the
00:29:46
western democracies against the
00:29:48
autocracies and my fear is
00:29:51
that we will now enter a restoration phase in the near future, something like
00:29:57
that The Declaration
00:29:58
of Human Rights comes, the French
00:30:00
Revolution and Napoleon tells the
00:30:02
people of Europe that you can all
00:30:04
free yourselves and become self-determined and
00:30:05
we bring you modern
00:30:06
jurisprudence and and and and this
00:30:08
is followed by the Congress of Vienna and then
00:30:10
the whole thing becomes the same again The
00:30:12
nobility system is being
00:30:14
restored again and I think a
00:30:17
little bit that we are actually
00:30:18
on the way to the
00:30:20
multipolar world order in the 21st century and are
00:30:22
now actually trying to re-establish the bipolar world
00:30:25
of the 20th century so that the West
00:30:28
complements the rest
00:30:31
Now the World Economic Forum was
00:30:34
in Davos where there were a lot of terms like
00:30:37
deglobalization or
00:30:40
fragmentarization of the world.
00:30:42
From a Western perspective, it seems to me that
00:30:44
the momentum or the
00:30:46
hope of a flourishing under
00:30:49
multipolar conditions is actually
00:30:51
over and the trend is going
00:30:55
to restore the old order of the 20th century again, yes and that is
00:30:57
somehow understandable that the
00:30:59
important word was in the
00:31:01
sentence from a Western perspective,
00:31:03
of course you try with all your might to
00:31:06
keep the old one, that's what the nobility also
00:31:09
tried to do Only a very few nobles
00:31:11
in the French Revolution who
00:31:13
sided with the upwardly mobile,
00:31:15
the majority
00:31:17
tried to maintain and cement their old system
00:31:21
and
00:31:23
this slogan of the workonomic Forum
00:31:26
surprised me a lot because they
00:31:29
wanted the Economic Forum to go
00:31:32
down now Pressure, so to speak,
00:31:35
shows what it is in the end, namely
00:31:37
the Western view, so to speak, it
00:31:40
takes place in Davos instead of in
00:31:42
the middle of Europe,
00:31:44
the Asian countries Africa South America, I
00:31:48
think they would
00:31:51
see it differently and
00:31:53
there is also the perspective on the
00:31:57
conflict between the USA and Russia as a conflict
00:32:02
in the West
00:32:03
and even the Indians say this is your
00:32:06
problem, we no longer want to be
00:32:12
forced to one side or the other by the best, we do
00:32:13
n't want to be forced to be pro-Russian or
00:32:17
anti-America or vice versa,
00:32:20
but this is yours Conflict we the
00:32:22
Indians want to have good relations with everyone
00:32:25
and in this respect
00:32:29
the world that has now come under pressure looks
00:32:35
very different from these different perspectives
00:32:37
and the clever nobles
00:32:41
at some point practiced the change of perspective
00:32:43
and put themselves in the shoes of the rising
00:32:45
middle classes and in the
00:32:48
best way In this case they worked with them
00:32:49
and I think that's
00:32:51
the only way for the West.
00:32:54
Such a clever nobleman was Helmut
00:32:56
Schmidt, for example, there was
00:32:58
the mirabo of the late 20th century, so to speak,
00:33:02
who recognized the strong importance of China in good time
00:33:06
and who
00:33:08
always pointed out that
00:33:10
in Germany one should do everything to
00:33:14
ensure compliance with human rights and that he
00:33:18
himself would be prepared to intervene with a stick if necessary, but
00:33:20
that it was
00:33:22
not the job of the West to protect other
00:33:24
countries
00:33:28
That's also their position when it comes to human rights, or would
00:33:30
you say that's what Schmidt
00:33:31
expressed a bit drastically? It
00:33:33
's the West's job to
00:33:37
influence China with regard to human rights, at least if you
00:33:39
speak the right language,
00:33:41
so first of all Helmut Schmidt has that also
00:33:44
likes to be provoked at times and
00:33:47
I think this sentence can also be understood in this sense,
00:33:48
that people jump up a bit so
00:33:51
that people talk about it, of course
00:33:55
we should in this new world order and
00:33:58
we have to represent our values,
00:34:00
yes what else and
00:34:03
of course we can because of
00:34:05
economic reasons Interests
00:34:08
don't give up our values ​​I've just
00:34:09
said that this is very closely
00:34:11
connected with the question is just
00:34:15
under the crucial point is just
00:34:16
we can't force you, we
00:34:19
have to convince you and that's
00:34:21
actually something if you're
00:34:23
in the long term are more powerful, so
00:34:25
we had we have if we
00:34:28
have to readjust our compass,
00:34:30
I understand that we have to recognize
00:34:33
that we live in a
00:34:35
different world in the 21st century than in the 20th century
00:34:37
in terms of the importance of the
00:34:39
emerging nation of China, first and
00:34:41
foremost, perhaps India In
00:34:43
second place, maybe Iran will come
00:34:44
along at some point, yes and Indonesia,
00:34:46
that we live in a different world,
00:34:49
that's clear to me, but the
00:34:51
exciting question is what does that mean in
00:34:53
practical terms, so if we
00:34:55
have a very practical question like that, the Chinese
00:34:57
want to be
00:34:58
very big in it the Hamburg port of
00:35:00
Einstein as they did in imperious
00:35:03
with great success.
00:35:05
How would you
00:35:07
react to this now as a Hanseatic politician?
00:35:09
Would you say there is no
00:35:12
threat or danger? Every investor is
00:35:14
welcome or would you say that
00:35:16
we first discuss human rights or
00:35:17
How do I imagine this in practical terms?
00:35:19
Yes, it's practically the same
00:35:21
as when you're in the FDP and
00:35:26
have and know a certain belief,
00:35:28
but the FDP is a relatively small
00:35:30
party. In order to enforce their interests,
00:35:33
they need majorities, so they have to
00:35:35
convince other people of this
00:35:38
We do it
00:35:41
as a matter of course within the democracies and the
00:35:42
strange thing is
00:35:44
that we
00:35:49
exclude it to a certain extent at the international level, so we
00:35:52
accuse the Chinese of
00:35:55
not
00:35:58
allowing enough participation in their country and the Chinese
00:36:00
accuse us of not
00:36:03
allow enough co-determination globally and both are
00:36:06
true,
00:36:07
so to speak, and you can't
00:36:09
say that one is right and the
00:36:11
other is wrong and we have to
00:36:12
accept that both are right and we
00:36:14
have to learn that we have this
00:36:16
practical co-determination that we
00:36:19
have practiced in democracies for a long time
00:36:26
will also function on a global level in the future or will become
00:36:28
more and more established, that will take time,
00:36:30
we're not talking about five years now,
00:36:32
those are long processes but that will
00:36:35
come and if we don't convince the majority of
00:36:38
Chinese people of this then that's
00:36:40
just how it is like in the FDP, if I do
00:36:43
n't have an intersection with the SPD and the Greens,
00:36:48
then
00:36:50
I won't get into the government.
00:36:53
They have such a
00:36:54
future perspective before, I call myself
00:36:56
fuku, sometimes suffering designed, yes, they
00:36:58
say that with the values and
00:37:00
human rights and more determination and
00:37:01
a better life and so on, that will
00:37:03
all come in China and that is
00:37:04
already going on in Shanghai or something like that on the left
00:37:07
when the discussion is being held or
00:37:09
when new new metropolises of the future are
00:37:13
being developed then the
00:37:14
people already have different ones Privileges or
00:37:16
more freedom and it is
00:37:18
developing more and more in this
00:37:19
direction, but there are
00:37:21
interesting speculations that say
00:37:24
if that is actually the case, that
00:37:26
the Chinese model is a
00:37:28
mixture of
00:37:29
communism, however understood,
00:37:32
on the one hand and
00:37:33
predatory capitalism on the other
00:37:34
Page is so incredibly successful and
00:37:37
if the Chinese with their strong
00:37:39
party where they gather the elites,
00:37:41
unlike ours, the elites go
00:37:43
into politics or are
00:37:45
involved in politics, which is
00:37:47
less the case with us when everything
00:37:49
is so successful And if the
00:37:51
strategists can be successful in the long term with
00:37:52
giant projects like the
00:37:54
Silk Road project,
00:37:57
that won't mean the reverse:
00:37:59
we have to learn from the Chinese
00:38:00
and adapt more to Chinese
00:38:02
conditions and also
00:38:04
have to adopt something from China. That's why I'm saying
00:38:06
that A few years ago I
00:38:08
was at a conference where a
00:38:09
high-ranking representative of German
00:38:11
business and association representatives
00:38:12
spoke who could
00:38:14
n't stop raving about China and
00:38:16
said there is breeding there and that can be
00:38:18
done in the long term and so
00:38:19
on and something like that is happening could
00:38:22
also go in this direction, that let's
00:38:24
say that model of success is the model of
00:38:26
economic success that if
00:38:28
we get into more serious economic
00:38:30
difficulties as a
00:38:31
way out or solution, they are not
00:38:34
afraid of it. No, why shouldn't I
00:38:37
learn from China? That doesn't mean that I should I
00:38:41
might have to give up what is dear to me, especially
00:38:44
civil society and as much
00:38:46
co-determination as possible in every
00:38:47
railway line project that is being done somewhere
00:38:49
and Chinese conditions are a
00:38:51
contradiction so lutzerat
00:38:53
demonstrations can. I would
00:38:56
n't spend too much time on the contradiction
00:38:58
but rather I would
00:38:59
look for a synthesis and the how can
00:39:03
be very simple, why don't you include two
00:39:05
years of co-determination for everyone and everyone,
00:39:07
involve the largest possible group
00:39:10
of people in a project and then
00:39:12
a decision is made and
00:39:14
then it's over and then this
00:39:15
decision is implemented that would be
00:39:18
Example, so to speak, a possibility
00:39:21
where we
00:39:25
can learn from Chinese development speeds
00:39:26
without giving up our co-determination and without
00:39:32
giving up our participation in civil society. Well, the big
00:39:35
complex on which this will be decided
00:39:36
is the question of sustainability, i.e.
00:39:39
the ecological revolution
00:39:41
is becoming more urgent, as is
00:39:43
climate change and its consequences
00:39:44
leads all the more, on the one
00:39:47
hand, there is a desire for a strong
00:39:48
state to be able to
00:39:50
take all the necessary measures to
00:39:52
stop as much as possible and at the same time
00:39:54
we know that if a state
00:39:56
were so strong that it
00:39:58
could really do everything, then we would We no longer
00:39:59
live in a liberal democracy here, yes,
00:40:02
and that's why
00:40:04
the Chinese question comes to us indirectly, so to speak.
00:40:07
I sat here with Robert, who,
00:40:09
contrary to rumors
00:40:11
that are spread on the Internet, is
00:40:12
very clear here in favor of the Western path
00:40:14
and against the Chinese one
00:40:32
If you say it away, you will think that a synthesis would be possible from this. Can you answer that with a short answer? Finally, I have just described the synthesis. Maybe we have to get to that point. Maybe it is a step forward in a democracy if you say as much
00:40:35
participation as possible but only up
00:40:37
to a certain point and then you can
00:40:40
no longer sue, then you can
00:40:41
no longer stop the process, but
00:40:43
then a project is implemented and then
00:40:46
you may still have the
00:40:48
opportunity or certainly
00:40:50
the government may still be able to implement it
00:40:53
The one way that bothers me the
00:40:56
most is that we don't
00:40:58
really discuss it but
00:41:01
we say the West is good and
00:41:03
China is bad and that
00:41:05
cements the matter and I think if we
00:41:08
do that
00:41:10
then we're hurting ourselves
00:41:12
and if we're not look more at
00:41:18
developing our democracy and our society and
00:41:19
if we stop looking at what
00:41:24
developments are happening in other
00:41:27
parts of the world,
00:41:29
then we might end up in the same
00:41:32
situation as the Chinese in the 19th
00:41:33
century They also believed that they did
00:41:36
n't have to pay attention to the industrial revolution
00:41:39
and then ended up in a big crisis
00:41:43
and that's my concern
00:41:45
if we lose openness then
00:41:48
we'll have a big problem and to a certain
00:41:51
extent we've already lost them.
00:41:53
Gentlemen for the conversation
00:41:55
[music]
00:42:09
[Music]
00:42:15
[Music] [
00:42:22
Music]
00:42:29
[Music]

Description:

Jahrhundertelang konnte eine Minderheit - erst Europa, dann die USA - die Spielregeln der Welt bestimmen. Nun geraten nicht nur abendländische Werte wie Demokratie und Menschenrechte mehr und mehr in die Defensive, sondern auch unser Wirtschaftssystem. Chinaexperte und Journalist Frank Sieren sieht in der gegenwärtigen politischen Weltlage eine historische Parallele zur Überwindung der Adelsgesellschaft im 19. Jahrhundert. Die Mehrheit der Bürger wollte sich damals von der Minderheit des Adels nicht mehr die Spielregeln diktieren lassen. Ebenso weigert sich heute die Mehrheit der Weltbevölkerung - allen voran China -, sich auf globaler Ebene der Hegemonie des Westens weiter unterzuordnen. Doch wie soll Deutschland mit einem immer mächtigeren China umgehen? Auf der einen Seite ist die Volksrepublik nach den USA der wichtigste Handelspartner, auf der anderen Seite erfordert eine wertegeleitete Außenpolitik, dass man Peking mit der Verletzung der Menschenrechte konfrontiert. Kann man Milliardeninvestitionen Chinas in die heimische Infrastruktur zulassen und gleichzeitig die Verfolgung der Uiguren, die Drohungen gegen Taiwan und den gravierenden Mangel an Rechtsstaatlichkeit anprangern? China sieht sich jedoch - anders als der Westen - nicht im Kampf zwischen Demokratien und Autokratien, sondern als Aufsteiger - und im Wettkampf mit den etablierten Mächten des Westens, so Frank Sieren. Für ein Land, das 1,4 Milliarden Menschen versorgen muss, gelten eben andere Prioritäten als die Wahrung der Menschenrechte. Allein seit 2003 hat sich das durchschnittliche Pro-Kopf-Einkommen der Chinesen verzehnfacht. Die chinesische Führung versucht mit rigorosen Mitteln, diesen wirtschaftlichen Aufstieg nicht durch innere Unruhen zu gefährden. Aus Sicht des Westens drängt sich längst die Frage auf: Steht der Kommunismus in China eigentlich Kopf? Es herrscht ja tatsächlich maximale wirtschaftliche Freiheit bei minimaler politischer Freiheit. Also eine Umkehrung der gesellschaftlichen Verhältnisse, die der Philosoph und Ökonom Karl Marx einst als Ideal entworfen hatte. Was könnte eine europäische Postwachstumsgesellschaft diesem pseudokommunistischen Turbokapitalismus noch entgegensetzen? Sieren warnt: Sollte es dem Westen in den nächsten Jahren nicht gelingen, sich den massiven wirtschaftlichen Veränderungen zu stellen und China einen legitimen Platz am Tisch der Mächtigen einzuräumen, so drohe ihm der wirtschaftliche und politische Absturz. ----- Hier auf ZDFheute Nachrichten erfahrt ihr, was auf der Welt passiert und was uns alle etwas angeht: Wir sorgen für Durchblick in der Nachrichtenwelt, erklären die Hintergründe und gehen auf gesellschaftliche Debatten ein. Diskutiert in Livestreams mit uns und bildet euch eure eigene Meinung mit den Fakten, die wir euch präsentieren. Abonniert unseren Kanal, um nichts mehr zu verpassen. Immer auf dem aktuellen Stand seid ihr auf https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten

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