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Video tags
Subtitles
Russian
00:00:01
material created and or distributed to00:00:04
foreign media00:00:07
performing the functions of a foreign agent00:00:10
and or a Russian legal entity00:00:14
performing the functions of a foreign agent00:00:19
[music]00:00:25
hello this is a podcast about news00:00:26
that remains important for a long time it is00:00:28
called what happened at the microphone00:00:30
Vladislav Gorin and our dear guest00:00:31
Konstantin Skorkin hello, welcome00:00:34
Konstantin journalist plowa nch anin in00:00:37
the past a great expert on Ukraine and the00:00:40
Donbass let's discuss the news of the00:00:42
region, more precisely the news of the00:00:44
self-proclaimed DPR and not recognized by00:00:45
almost anyone, and I will risk making a00:00:48
summary of the news feeds of the00:00:50
last weeks of the last days against the backdrop of the00:00:54
external political crisis around00:00:55
Ukraine, Russia and Europe, NATO, the republics of00:00:58
Lugansk and Donetsk are the main focus of00:01:00
attention, if not in the sights, they00:01:02
are considered as a theater of military00:01:04
operations if the conflict suddenly goes into a00:01:07
hot phase, if it doesn’t go over, this is00:01:09
still such an eternal stumbling block,00:01:12
well, in fact, the news of Donbass00:01:15
is written in Moscow, just like in previous years00:01:17
in the Russian parliament they were talking about the fact00:01:20
that, at the instigation of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation, it is necessary to00:01:23
recognize the republics of Russia, Vyacheslav Volodin and00:01:25
Andrei Turchak from United Russia declare00:01:28
that Russia should supply weapons to the LPR and DPR,00:01:31
and officially before providing00:01:33
military assistance, somehow eat all this up00:01:36
all this news, but this part of00:01:39
this big aggravation between Russia00:01:43
and the West in which00:01:45
Ukraine is most directly involved and,00:01:48
accordingly, Donbass as the most controversial00:01:50
hot area is naturally shown00:01:52
in the spotlight and that is why it has00:01:55
received such interest from Russian00:01:57
parliamentarians,00:01:58
but it seems There are some atypical00:02:02
moments here that in this aggravation they want to00:02:04
expand the somewhat legal field in00:02:07
which the republics exist, after all, with00:02:09
recognition from him it’s a stone’s throw to00:02:11
join, can you imagine what it’s like to imagine what00:02:14
such a prospect is, well,00:02:17
not yet, I don’t see such a prospect yet00:02:19
because the Minsk agreements00:02:22
remain a key tool for the00:02:25
Kremlin, that is, no one is going to give them up00:02:28
because this is a tool with the00:02:31
help of which Moscow does not lose00:02:33
hope of controlling Ukraine because,00:02:36
according to the Minsk agreement, these00:02:39
unrecognized republics, these00:02:41
territories uncontrolled by Kiev00:02:43
should return to Ukraine, but it is00:02:45
easy to assume until, since00:02:47
Russia’s presence there is all It becomes more and more00:02:49
impressive through these00:02:51
new citizens who receive00:02:53
Russian passports through economic00:02:54
political structures and thus00:02:57
inside Ukraine it seems like such an enclave is00:03:00
completely controlled by Russia which00:03:02
will naturally influence both the00:03:04
domestic and foreign policy of Ukraine,00:03:06
therefore this is such a very beneficial00:03:08
tool from which00:03:10
no one is going to refuse, and again there was00:03:13
a meeting in Paris of advisers to the heads of00:03:16
state of the Norman Four, they were again00:03:18
persuaded to agree to the Minsk agreements and it seems to00:03:20
remain the same working00:03:23
situation and it seems to me that this is all the00:03:26
talk about a possible confession about00:03:29
arms supplies, well, this is an element of this00:03:31
pressure, first of all, on Ukraine and,00:03:34
accordingly, part of the increase in the00:03:36
stakes of the negotiations by the West, but this00:03:39
does not seem to be a working tool, it seems00:03:41
this is all a ritual of laurels in this00:03:44
fantastic interview with four00:03:46
radio stations, in general, of course, the00:03:50
topic of how00:03:52
diplomats around the world, in particular, deserves a separate issue or special attention00:03:53
Russia, it seems to me, were among the pioneers who00:03:56
switched not only to new sincerity, but to00:03:59
unnecessary frankness or00:04:01
unnecessary00:04:02
intemperance in their rhetoric, and there00:04:05
Lavrov spoke about the fact that the issue of00:04:07
recognition should be considered in00:04:09
the context of the Minsk agreements; we have00:04:11
such a firm line and there were words about the fact00:04:13
that we must force the West to00:04:15
force Kiev to force two words to00:04:18
comply with the Minsk agreements, but00:04:20
this reality of 2014 is no longer00:04:24
there, perhaps it was this window of00:04:26
opportunity was not very large, but00:04:28
now it is generally unimaginable that00:04:30
Ukraine would go to00:04:32
its the political body was00:04:34
to be implemented, but these alien00:04:36
elements would control it, but00:04:38
I see an option, for example, when00:04:41
some kind of big deal00:04:43
between the West and Russia is not reached and Kiev is under00:04:46
pressure from both sides so that Kiev00:04:48
still comes to the implementation of the Minsk00:04:51
agreements then this the situation00:04:53
is becoming more realistic, it00:04:54
seems to me that in Moscow they are counting on this00:04:56
because lately they have00:04:59
been trying not to talk too much, considering the00:05:01
power that is there as a00:05:03
puppet and as dependent on the United States,00:05:05
so they are all betting on00:05:08
reaching an agreement with the United States with the00:05:11
NATO countries and then using these00:05:14
agreements are actually forced to force00:05:15
Ukraine to fulfill, but this is something that00:05:18
Ukraine itself is very much afraid of until the00:05:20
possibility of such an agreement behind their back to00:05:23
decide the fate of Ukraine without Ukraine itself00:05:25
is a topic that periodically00:05:27
comes up close to the Ukrainians,00:05:29
that is, they are not sure that the00:05:31
Western allies will show and the right00:05:34
moment, firmness, in any case,00:05:36
the Europeans, Germany, France, which00:05:39
is actually a member of the Norman00:05:41
Four, are interested in maintaining00:05:43
partnership relations with Russia,00:05:44
in fact, thanks to their position,00:05:47
this meeting took place in Paris and the00:05:48
next one was planned in Berlin,00:05:50
so it seems to me that burying the Minsk00:05:53
agreement is such a long-running00:05:55
topic in fact in fact, therefore, the recognition of the DPR00:05:58
and LPR seems to me that Russia gives very little00:06:00
in fact, that is, this00:06:02
means the end of all this00:06:04
diplomatic architecture of which you are on the side for00:06:06
these fashions, even if it is in a dead end, but00:06:08
it is like a tool that is recognized,00:06:10
including by the West, with the help of which you00:06:12
can negotiate and solve00:06:14
this problem diplomatically, you don’t00:06:17
understand that you want to get away from all00:06:19
this, it seems obvious to you, but it00:06:21
doesn’t leave me, I want you to00:06:24
explain in more detail, do you imagine00:06:27
that this is even possible, this00:06:29
scenario of the Minsk agreements in some kind of00:06:32
updated pharma but fundamentally the00:06:34
same because there is one story when00:06:37
you have measurements for a Frenchman and Putin and00:06:40
this wandering from room to room00:06:41
puts pressure on you and you, like Poroshenko, for example, the00:06:44
president is forced to accept these00:06:46
agreements, and then something like this happens,00:06:49
quietly sabotaged they look00:06:52
completely impossible in your reality, well, this is a00:06:54
different situation00:06:56
when there are the United States which, in00:06:58
general, are not against showing Moscow what he will00:07:01
grab, there are some things that00:07:03
cannot be crossed, and this time we will not00:07:05
retreat too often, you have had00:07:07
this retreat all the time it’s not enough, well, I00:07:10
see that the current Kiev government,00:07:13
of course, for Zelensky, it’s all unprofitable for the00:07:16
implementation of these Minsk agreements00:07:18
to implement this because it inevitably00:07:21
almost completely leads to a00:07:23
serious political crisis,00:07:25
but if it turns out to be a situation of pressure from00:07:27
all sides, it’s difficult to say which choice the00:07:30
bathory will bow to, that is Naturally, there00:07:32
is hope that this will all remain so and00:07:34
remain such a00:07:35
long-lasting diplomatic impasse00:07:38
that can drag on indefinitely, but00:07:40
I see that people00:07:42
in Moscow are often very determined about the plague there, and00:07:44
in fact, all this talk about recognizing the00:07:46
DPR and LPR is a way of putting pressure to00:07:49
show that we have a backup option00:07:52
that no one there will like,00:07:55
this is the rise in rates, but I’m showing while I00:07:58
don’t see the realism in this, I see that the00:08:00
Kremlin is trying to gain a maximum foothold00:08:02
in these territories, there are fresh decisions in00:08:05
this regard about the fact that the residents of Donbass00:08:07
who are beating Russian passports -00:08:09
services to claim Russian00:08:12
social benefits, residents of Donbass will have the00:08:15
opportunity to serve in the00:08:18
Russian armed forces, that is, to00:08:21
maximally strengthen their presence there,00:08:23
processes in the economy that are now moving00:08:24
towards the dates of the appearance of a new investor,00:08:27
Yurchenko, that is, to maximally strengthen00:08:30
their presence, but from this00:08:32
global framework I it seems that he00:08:34
will not refuse, that is, talk00:08:36
about recognition is an element of blackmail and00:08:39
pressure, just like many things in the00:08:42
Kremlin’s statement now,00:08:43
you say that this is an increase in rates,00:08:45
but this is a bet, it also cannot00:08:47
play out because sanctions,00:08:49
foreign policy isolation, spending on00:08:51
restoring the infrastructure of the economy,00:08:54
reactions of the rest Russia, which is clearly not00:08:57
like Crimea, would be happy about the annexation of00:08:59
new Donbass territories, these are all00:09:01
big disadvantages and there are not particularly00:09:03
many advantages for Russia, all that it can, it is00:09:05
already extracting them at all,00:09:08
so when connecting,00:09:09
I consider communication as an option, but00:09:11
from the point of view of recognition, well It00:09:15
seems to me that this is just some kind of extreme00:09:16
option, if it is clear that00:09:18
nothing can be extracted from the Minsk ones, it will be given to00:09:20
this to go, but for now, in Minsk, an00:09:23
effective mechanism exists, this00:09:26
situation will remain, but00:09:28
naturally there the Duma factions00:09:31
will compete who will perform better because00:09:33
the communists have seized the initiative I00:09:35
understand that initially00:09:36
they did it so arbitrarily because00:09:39
united Russia urgently had to00:09:40
interrupt it, the communists declared that it was00:09:43
necessary to recognize the DPR and LPR, united Russia00:09:46
declared that they needed to supply weapons there,00:09:48
yes, that is, it’s not really00:09:49
clear how to supply where and since00:09:51
here in the statement we are talking about what it00:09:54
means that the residents of the Luhansk and00:09:57
Donetsk regions of Ukraine are suffering from the actions of the00:10:00
Ukrainian government, but we00:10:02
will supply weapons to the LPR and DPR, which00:10:04
Moscow does not recognize and which are not in the Minsk00:10:06
agreements. Well, in general, it is clear that this is00:10:08
such a very loud political00:10:11
statement is bad actually connecting with the00:10:13
Kremlin’s policy, we’ve got an excellent00:10:15
understanding of the news that00:10:18
is being made in Moscow about the Nr and the DPR, let’s00:10:22
talk in the republics about what’s00:10:25
happening there and how to keep in touch with the00:10:26
Donbass, now I have00:10:29
a friend there who still lives there,00:10:32
but I can’t say that I’m right00:10:35
there, somehow very deep in the Tambov00:10:38
agenda, now I’m trying to follow00:10:41
what’s going on there now from00:10:43
open sources, I can roughly00:10:44
imagine the picture that I’ll00:10:46
come out to tell you how people live there, and00:10:49
somehow, dude, I’m probably going to find it difficult now, it00:10:53
seems important there the process is taking place00:10:55
and in general he said about the issuance of00:10:58
passports, I can see the exact number,00:11:02
this Rostov governor Vasily00:11:05
Golubev named not so long ago, he said00:11:08
today the number of people living in00:11:10
Donbass which became Russian citizens is more00:11:12
than 700 20,000 people own00:11:16
Rostov region there are 8 points in00:11:18
which residents of the LPR and DPR can submit00:11:21
documents to obtain00:11:22
Russian citizenship since the nineteenth year, a00:11:25
simplified procedure has been in place, Putin00:11:27
then said that we are00:11:29
doing this for humanitarian reasons, in00:11:31
general it is called Abkhazization00:11:34
or nativeization of Transnistria, the00:11:37
process of how it proceeds, this process00:11:40
what kind of reaction they meet, well, I I call this00:11:43
administrative assimilation of the population.00:11:45
Naturally, the interest in obtaining00:11:48
Russian passports in these territories00:11:50
is high because people are in the00:11:55
situation of living in unrecognized republics00:11:58
where there is nothing, nothing works,00:12:01
that is, no business banks can operate there,00:12:02
and so on,00:12:04
because this as being in00:12:07
isolation, such enclaves are why a00:12:09
Russian passport is such a00:12:12
pass to some kind of big normal00:12:13
life, there are options here, either to live00:12:16
there with a Russian passport and these00:12:19
new initiatives00:12:20
are aimed at somehow00:12:22
making this life easier, and there in that00:12:24
including the possibility of receiving social00:12:26
benefits about which recently, damn Putin,00:12:29
to work on this issue, but the most important00:12:32
way is, of course, to enter Russia00:12:35
here and arrange your life, since00:12:37
people receive Messi passports, the rights of00:12:40
Russian citizens and, accordingly, I00:12:42
cannot move to Russia and00:12:44
learn to work here, and so on to have all00:12:47
the rights of a Russian citizen, and it00:12:49
seems to me that such individual integration00:12:51
seems most attractive to the residents of Donbass now,00:12:53
since those00:12:55
people who somehow connected their lives00:12:57
with Ukraine, most of them have already00:13:00
gone there, moved, let’s say,00:13:02
to the mainland, the remaining population for the00:13:04
most part is all people are focused on00:13:07
Russia and therefore the process of passportization00:13:11
will continue,00:13:12
I think there are a lot of people among those00:13:15
who stayed, how do people feel about Russia00:13:18
under you and the assessments towards Russia are very00:13:20
positive and towards Putin a00:13:23
positive attitude towards a united Russia00:13:25
as shown by the recent launch date and00:13:27
elections it was the people there that could be seen from those polling00:13:30
stations where there was mobile00:13:32
voting, whether there were en masse actual residents of the00:13:34
DPR and LPR, that there the percentage of votes for a00:13:37
united Russia was significantly higher than00:13:38
in the neighboring polling stations where the00:13:40
actual residents of the Rostov region voted,00:13:42
there is a moment that is not popular in the republics, in fact, the00:13:46
idea itself is this00:13:48
independence, before the existence of the book of00:13:50
these unrecognized republics, a00:13:52
very skeptical attitude towards the local00:13:54
authorities,00:13:55
color and positive relations,00:13:57
can you explain why this happens,00:13:59
those who were dissatisfied, those who had a different00:14:02
opinion simply left, or was00:14:04
it really a00:14:06
fairly popular point of view from the very beginning that00:14:08
nothing can shake because00:14:10
if in a city like I don’t know00:14:13
Novokuznetsk, something like this happened, there are no00:14:15
analogies in Russia, but I don’t know how00:14:18
people would feel about the fact that, in general,00:14:20
in a European post-Soviet city00:14:23
that you haven’t seen since the Second World War,00:14:25
real things are happening hell and what kind of00:14:28
phenomenon is this, why is such broad00:14:30
support maintained? Well, initially00:14:33
pro-Russian00:14:35
sentiments in the Donbass dominated from the test, otherwise00:14:37
all this would not have happened there; it was00:14:39
historically the case due to the fact that00:14:40
this is the most00:14:43
Russian-speaking region of those that00:14:45
were part of Ukraine before, but to me00:14:47
I think Crimea is a separate story from the climate,00:14:49
we won’t talk about that now. Donbass00:14:52
was the most Russian-speaking there was a00:14:54
large percentage of the ethnic Russian00:14:55
population and sympathy for Russia was00:14:59
always very strong when it00:15:01
actually happened in the fourteenth year, when00:15:03
this crisis happened, sympathy for Russia was00:15:06
maximum people who supported00:15:10
Ukraine or the new Kiev government, they00:15:12
turned out to be a minority, therefore,00:15:14
no effective counteraction to00:15:16
this separatist movement arose there,00:15:19
unlike other regions of00:15:21
Ukraine where there were also certain00:15:23
pro-Russian movements, if you take00:15:25
Kharkov, Odessa, Dnepropetrovsk, but00:15:28
somehow the Ukrainian forces turned out to be in00:15:29
the majority more supported by00:15:32
ordinary people and local00:15:34
elites, and there this scenario did not work,00:15:37
add the people and the party were united, that00:15:40
is, the local elites who were00:15:42
represented by the party of the regions, the local00:15:43
security forces, for the most part, were also00:15:45
focused on Russia and, in general, everyone was00:15:48
waiting for the Crimean scenario to happen00:15:50
let’s just add a new one,00:15:52
everything turned out the way it turned out, the00:15:54
republics were formed and00:15:56
you still have sympathy for Russia, you are all sorts of00:15:59
people, of course you would like to be00:16:01
part of Russia so that all this would end00:16:03
and well, they would be accepted into the Russian00:16:06
Federation as separate, regular00:16:09
subjects of the federation and then their life would00:16:11
become good from a point of view, so00:16:15
put it in a mood where they know00:16:18
what can and whether it is possible at all, and00:16:21
accordingly, those who did not accept00:16:23
such a point of view, but they mostly00:16:25
left and he is those who were actively against00:16:28
and there are those who supported the Euromaidan,00:16:30
went to some protests in Donetsk and00:16:32
Luhansk, and they left there literally00:16:35
immediately in the spring of 14 because their lives00:16:38
there were in danger until in this00:16:40
situation, let’s say more passively,00:16:42
the population left a little later, but00:16:45
nevertheless, the bulk of supporters of00:16:47
Ukraine therefore, she left often the population,00:16:50
actively alone or completely00:16:53
neutral, they don’t care what kind of power, as long as00:16:54
life gets better, or00:16:56
pro-Russian people, supporters of00:16:59
Russia, well, that is, it’s just more or00:17:01
less understandable, it’s not very clear where the00:17:03
irritation goes and that’s what I would like there is00:17:05
still dissatisfaction to ask00:17:08
if you live in the city, but I repeat, I’m00:17:10
still trying to find analogies of Donetsk in00:17:12
Russia, well, a big huge city in00:17:15
which the world football championships00:17:18
were held, the European international, even after00:17:21
all, it’s not some kind of Novokuznetsk, well,00:17:23
here’s Chelyabinsk and this kind of thing happens there no matter how00:17:26
much the people did not leave, but for those who00:17:28
remained, their lives changed dramatically; they00:17:31
could have had some hopes in the00:17:33
fourteenth year in Russia, how to00:17:35
rely on when you have been living for many00:17:38
years, you have such a new00:17:40
abnormal normality in which00:17:41
high prices are an eternal gray area in terms of the00:17:45
legal status of your receipt00:17:47
some kind of services, including banking, are there00:17:50
services from mobile operators when you have00:17:52
problems with work, when do you even00:17:55
have the non-illusory prospect of participating00:17:58
in an armed conflict, yes, it’s on your00:18:00
head that your husband will fly in all the time, but00:18:02
still there must be some kind of reaction00:18:04
besides apathy yes besides the fact that it’s00:18:07
scary that they’re frustrated by all this, where does the00:18:09
dissatisfaction go, everyone thinks that00:18:11
it’s Ukraine that’s bad from those who remain00:18:13
1 then yes, it’s Ukraine that’s bad, but first of all,00:18:16
people have trauma associated with the00:18:19
fighting during the time when they were00:18:21
fired upon by Ukrainian troops and00:18:23
for many, well, it seemed to become00:18:26
decisive for those who hesitated, then at the00:18:27
beginning of 14 it became decisive from the00:18:30
point of view of the complete rejection of Ukraine00:18:32
in all manifestations, well, naturally,00:18:34
instead of propaganda in every possible way, naturally,00:18:36
this mood is supported and00:18:38
fueled by March, it is logical that the second point00:18:41
is, paradoxical as it may seem, but here the presence of00:18:44
these local authorities against them is00:18:46
analyzed to analyze dissatisfaction, well, that is, it is00:18:48
not Russia that is bad, but Russia is good Russia00:18:50
helps Russia in every possible way, it is00:18:52
bad local authorities who steal00:18:54
half of them Russian aid00:18:57
who profit from the troubles of the local00:18:59
population,00:19:00
and of course people have reason to00:19:03
think so quite rightly00:19:05
they think so and in this way it seems to me that00:19:08
this dissatisfaction is also very strongly00:19:10
switching to Ukraine and to00:19:12
local authorities, Russia still00:19:14
remains such a source of all the good things00:19:17
that can be expected in life, but it is very similar00:19:20
to the situation in many Russian00:19:21
regions, I have one more00:19:23
maximum a naive question, I00:19:26
haven’t understood for many years why what’s going on there is00:19:29
beneficial for the Kremlin, well, in this form I00:19:32
understand the local people, the local elites00:19:35
that have formed, who benefit from00:19:38
this situation of the gray zone, you can00:19:40
catch fish unnoticed in troubled waters, but00:19:43
why didn’t it work out in the DPR if not00:19:48
facade, if not an exemplary one of some new00:19:50
territory, why didn’t it turn out to be at least00:19:52
more normal life than now? After all,00:19:55
this is not Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and in00:19:58
Russia and Ukraine, including in00:20:01
its eastern part, many people understand00:20:03
how close it is in terms of culture00:20:05
and language region to both countries why00:20:09
everything there turned into such a from the same00:20:12
even from the point of view of political00:20:13
expediency it seemed more00:20:16
profitable to turn this region into such a00:20:19
completely ordinary strong near the00:20:21
Russian region it was industrially00:20:24
developed it is unlikely that it would have been much more00:20:26
expensive in the sense of some then investments now the00:20:29
phrase Russia can occupy Kharkov,00:20:32
uttered by Zelensky, it is generally00:20:34
frightening in 2014, say Russia can00:20:37
occupy Kharkov, yes, I think that00:20:39
many in Kharkov would rather say that00:20:40
the hands of what in the Russian pension will00:20:43
pay, yes, we are only for well, that is, I00:20:45
almost I’m sure that many people00:20:47
would not refuse, well, in fact, such a00:20:49
big tragedy of Donbass, it turned out to be00:20:51
this front line that divides and00:20:54
on both sides of this front line a00:20:57
similar project could be implemented and00:21:00
somehow show that on our side it’s00:21:01
better to live, create a showcase Yes, that is, there00:21:04
were ideas about creating a similar00:21:07
showcase in the part of Donbass controlled by Kiev,00:21:09
that is,00:21:11
investing as much money there as possible, when Zelensky came to00:21:12
power, he talked a lot about this, about the00:21:14
need to invest money in this part00:21:16
so that people would see that00:21:18
life is better on the Ukrainian side and thus we00:21:22
will win competitions for00:21:24
these people who remained there from the point of00:21:25
view of the crane in the occupied00:21:27
territories, the project was also possible00:21:30
before the creation of a showcase of the Russian world00:21:32
with the DPR and LPR, but in fact no one00:21:35
did this because they were00:21:37
investing money in a territory where00:21:39
war can break out at any moment, no one00:21:42
wants it, so it’s only00:21:44
recently that the Russian side has begun to00:21:46
make some efforts to00:21:48
normalize life there because before00:21:50
that, the economy there was left to00:21:51
Sergei Kurchenko, a former Ukrainian00:21:54
oligarch who fled after the fall00:21:56
Yanukovych’s authorities and now they gave him00:21:58
all these enterprises that00:22:00
were there and, accordingly, he had such an00:22:02
efficient economy only00:22:04
recently, when this00:22:05
Russian management was brought in, a new one00:22:07
appeared that topic with passports,00:22:09
social benefits, and so on, in the00:22:11
beginning, somehow this was the maximum the population00:22:13
actually thought about it before, therefore, before00:22:15
that it was absolutely such a wild00:22:17
field, that is, some kind of minimum00:22:18
standard of living was maintained there, but the fact00:22:21
that you were there to do some kind of showcase of the Russian00:22:22
world, of course, no one talked about this00:22:24
in Russia for a long time00:22:27
the feeling that the Minsk agreements will soon come into effect00:22:30
and these territories00:22:31
will return back to Ukraine, let00:22:33
Ukraine restore them and spend them for a00:22:35
week, just like in Ukraine, there was00:22:38
hope that it would be possible to00:22:40
somehow force Russia to compensate for the destruction,00:22:43
which is where all the income is, so everyone wants00:22:45
to transfer this region no one00:22:47
deals with each other and really doesn’t want to, that00:22:49
is, he turned out to be such a land00:22:51
that, by and large, no one00:22:53
needs it; it is interesting only from the point of00:22:55
view of political calculations,00:22:58
as some kind of tool that00:23:00
was used in foreign policy games, but00:23:02
actually the territory itself is people which are00:23:04
there by and large not00:23:06
interesting not in Moscow don’t give Japanese00:23:09
historians crayfish Kurami who explored00:23:11
the Donbass I have a good book freedom00:23:13
is a kind of Donbass but he00:23:16
called Donbass the prodigal son of Kiev and Moscow in00:23:19
relation to whom they don’t know what to do00:23:21
not in Russia not in Ukraine, here it is00:23:23
some kind of incomprehensible region with a complex00:23:26
identity at the same time and it is not00:23:28
completely Russia is not completely Ukraine is a kind of00:23:30
borderland of the frontier and, in fact, to00:23:32
this day there is such an attitude towards it when there00:23:35
is no certainty or whose00:23:37
land it is and so questions about the Minsk00:23:39
agreement about prospects if00:23:42
nothing is done, then00:23:44
for some reason this is a tribal zone, I would like to say this is a gray00:23:47
territory, as if it will tend to00:23:50
become, in general, an00:23:52
independent entity, officially00:23:54
unofficially they will be attached to them for many years to00:23:56
come, but here if you remember the00:23:58
historical events before are associated with00:24:00
Donbass at one time one of the00:24:02
founders of the Donbass industry was an00:24:05
Englishman, a Briton, a Welshman, John00:24:08
Hughes, who was actually the founder of the00:24:09
city of Donetsk and universities, and yes, yes, of00:24:12
course, it was his own miscalculation of his00:24:15
management for the Donbass that was given a00:24:18
time horizon of 50 years; it was there00:24:21
at the end of the 19th century in 50 years, that is,00:24:23
to develop all the deposits in this00:24:25
steppe and, in fact, to curtail00:24:27
the service altogether, in fact, to something like this, the00:24:29
Donbass is now returning to this00:24:32
state of the wild steppe, that is, the00:24:34
gradual degradation of the social life00:24:36
that is there, say the war, this has00:24:38
all greatly accelerated the cities are00:24:40
emptying people are leaving some in Ukraine, some in00:24:43
Russia, some all over the world, the00:24:45
industry is also, by and large,00:24:47
supported artificially for the most00:24:49
part, except for a few profitable00:24:51
enterprises that are there,00:24:53
the rest will all stay afloat again,00:24:55
deindustrialization, which began in00:24:57
the nineties, when this ineffective00:24:59
Soviet economy began to00:25:00
curtail this everything was accompanied there by00:25:03
the closure of US factories, the whole village was00:25:05
deserted, this process, it00:25:06
seems to me, continues now and will00:25:09
continue, that is, it all turned out to be a very00:25:11
sad story when the industrial00:25:13
region actually had a lot of them in00:25:15
Europe, but in European countries it00:25:17
was possible to more or less adapt them00:25:20
already some new post-industrial00:25:21
life in Donbass and no one was working on it anymore, and00:25:24
here it is worth saying that there, all the years of00:25:27
independence of Ukraine, Donbass was also in00:25:29
some kind of problem in which there00:25:31
were constantly strikes and so on, and they also didn’t00:25:35
know what to do with it after that 14 years00:25:38
has turned into such a geopolitical00:25:40
thing that is being transferred back and forth,00:25:43
which serves as a source of some kind of00:25:46
external political00:25:47
games, but actually it’s still something to00:25:50
do with them, thank you very much,00:25:52
Konstantin Skorkin, journalist00:25:56
[music] did00:26:01
you listen to the podcast, what happened and the00:26:04
news that took a long time remain important00:26:05
although no, at first you still listened to00:26:08
Alya, our listener, who wrote down00:26:10
specially for us the legally imposed but00:26:12
generally vain words about a00:26:15
foreign agency, thank you Olya for00:26:17
turning a00:26:19
stupid duty into a touching00:26:21
ritual of friendly greeting on the00:26:24
support page like our other listeners . jellyfish. oh oh everything, there00:26:26
is also an explanation of how you can00:26:29
donate money to the publication Medusa, which00:26:31
is independent in its editorial00:26:32
policy but has fallen into financial00:26:35
dependence on you, our listeners and00:26:37
readers, thank you for not leaving us,00:26:39
for not just taming us, and you are00:26:41
responsible mail for communication with the00:26:44
part of the editorial staff speaking into the microphone00:26:45
podcast by dogs. oh and at the podcast credits00:26:48
what happened editor and host university00:26:50
his goren it’s me the editor producer larsu00:26:53
according to the author of the music victor davydov as00:26:55
well as the jellyfish design department see you soon00:26:59
[music]Description:
ДАННОЕ СООБЩЕНИЕ (МАТЕРИАЛ) СОЗДАНО И (ИЛИ) РАСПРОСТРАНЕНО ИНОСТРАННЫМ СРЕДСТВОМ МАССОВОЙ ИНФОРМАЦИИ, ВЫПОЛНЯЮЩИМ ФУНКЦИИ ИНОСТРАННОГО АГЕНТА, И (ИЛИ) РОССИЙСКИМ ЮРИДИЧЕСКИМ ЛИЦОМ, ВЫПОЛНЯЮЩИМ ФУНКЦИИ ИНОСТРАННОГО АГЕНТА. Фракция КПРФ в Госдуме предложила руководству России признать самопровозглашенные республики — ЛНР и ДНР. А представители «Единой России» заявили, что Российской Федерации следует начать открытые и официальные поставки оружия непризнанным республикам. Проблема ЛНР и ДНР — одна из ключевых в этом и в предыдущих кризисах между Россией, Украиной и Западом. — На что Москва рассчитывает в этот раз? — И каким, вероятнее всего, окажется будущее донецкого и луганского самопровозглашенных образований? Объясняет журналист Константин Скоркин. 00:00 Мы указываем это сообщение из-за давления российских властей 00:43 О чем этот выпуск 04:42 Чего добивается Россия 07:10 Почему снова обсуждается признание ЛНР И ДНР 10:28 Как Россия интегрирует Донбасс 14:33 Почему Донбасс ориентирован на Россию 20:49 Почему не удается нормализовать жизнь в Донбассе
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