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Russian
00:00:03
shitty place. What about the neighbors? They live well;00:00:05
the war will justify their control over the country.00:00:08
You might be scared of the Maidan; of course,00:00:11
we can do that too, and Putin was scared; he00:00:14
came to the point where it was necessary to either00:00:17
shoot others or shoot all the00:00:19
bandits in at such an old00:00:21
age They suffer from this messianism00:00:24
great figures and Russians as the00:00:27
largest divided people00:00:28
[music]00:00:34
Good afternoon program road map00:00:37
Mikhail Khodorkovsky Vladimir Pestukhov its00:00:40
experts I am its presenter Vitaly Dymarsky00:00:42
Today we have another Topic for this00:00:47
year Well, not for a year let’s say in 1100:00:49
months, in fact, not only us, but also00:00:52
many people who are watching the military00:00:55
conflict in Ukraine most often come00:00:57
to the question of wondering what,00:01:00
in fact, is the purpose of this special00:01:02
military operation, the answers are always different,00:01:05
then for nosification, what does00:01:09
Russian anitarianization say, seizure of territory,00:01:12
change power in Ukraine and so on and so on00:01:16
and so on goal mini goals00:01:18
change questions remain but today I00:01:21
would like to start our conversation with such a00:01:23
more fundamental question00:01:26
addressed by our expert Why does00:01:30
Russia need Ukraine at all? At one time I00:01:33
remember it00:01:34
was met quite noisily in Russia00:01:37
book uh now ex-president then he00:01:41
then, in my opinion, was the ex-president in00:01:43
Ukraine Leonid Kuchma who was called00:01:46
Ukraine not Russia then when relations00:01:51
uh got complicated and then00:01:54
we started talking we I mean00:01:57
Russia started talking about what uh00:02:00
Ukraine turned into anti-Russia And what does she00:02:03
want again for this question about Russia?00:02:06
She wants reunification with Ukraine. She00:02:10
wants it to be00:02:12
one country with Ukraine, as can be judged by the00:02:15
article that Putin published when00:02:18
the past Well, not in the past, now00:02:20
the year before last, your opinion what00:02:23
fundamentally globally does Russia want from00:02:27
Ukraine at the current stage of our00:02:31
life Vladimir today is your turn to00:02:33
start00:02:34
briefly00:02:36
here there are three levels of answers to this00:02:38
question but I will start00:02:40
in reverse order At the moment00:02:44
the question of the possession of Ukraine and the question of00:02:49
possession is a00:02:50
question for the Russian Elites and00:02:56
some parts of active minorities in00:03:01
Russia, the question is primarily religious,00:03:04
no rational answer00:03:07
today in the answer Why Russia00:03:10
Ukraine is not there, that is, some kind of religious00:03:14
Faith is irrational, it is like any00:03:18
Faith does not require these additional00:03:21
questions why why Why do00:03:25
people believe that Russia cannot00:03:28
exist without Ukraine because he doesn’t00:03:31
believe that Russia cannot exist00:03:32
without Ukraine and This is a question for Well,00:03:36
unfortunately, it’s very difficult to solve because there are00:03:39
no other grounds for it other than religious ones,00:03:42
so there’s no rational answer.00:03:45
Russia needs Ukraine so that NATO00:03:49
does not come close to Russian borders.00:03:52
The answer is wrong because that NATO in00:03:57
other points is easily approaching00:03:58
Russian borders; moreover, thanks to00:04:01
this war, it has come much closer,00:04:04
similar to who00:04:06
it was before, plus modern00:04:10
weapons00:04:11
actually allow us to solve these00:04:13
problems from a completely different side;00:04:15
further, Russia needs Ukraine because the00:04:21
Russian economy00:04:24
will become stronger with the presence of Ukraine’s resource00:04:28
Russia will become a more powerful economic00:04:31
state. The answer is incorrect. Why00:04:34
because to one degree or another, but00:04:37
something similar could have happened with00:04:40
some amendments for00:04:43
the search for states about 25 years ago when00:04:47
all these Soviet ties were preserved00:04:50
and when indeed the00:04:54
industry of one other side was00:04:56
very dependent from each other and00:04:59
breaking ties was painful and00:05:01
hit both ends of both Russia and00:05:05
Ukraine, that is, then there00:05:07
really is some kind of reasonable00:05:10
cooperation between these two states, it00:05:12
would give benefits to both during this time,00:05:15
so much water has flowed under the bridge, ties have already00:05:19
been broken, there is a common interest00:05:23
in markets of each other, some but at the00:05:26
level of the average, what is the00:05:28
general interest in the connections between the00:05:32
various neighbors of the property throughout the00:05:35
territory in order to00:05:36
take advantage of them is absolutely00:05:39
necessary, that is, no. From the point of view of00:05:42
acquiring these00:05:46
newly minted lands, this does not give anything other than a00:05:49
colossal burden on the Russian00:05:52
economy00:05:55
after all that the Russian army00:05:59
did from Ukraine, but to imagine00:06:02
that they are scared. The devil’s dream00:06:05
came true, they got Ukraine into00:06:08
their possession, then it’s just hard for me to00:06:12
imagine with what resources00:06:14
Russia began to restore everything that00:06:17
it destroyed. That is, it’s simple. That is,00:06:21
where did it come from? these religious roots That00:06:24
is,00:06:25
in principle, Naturally, they go back to the00:06:29
historical past of Russia But more00:06:31
specifically, this is still a00:06:33
Solzhenitsyn dream. That is, this is some kind00:06:36
of00:06:37
mythology that, from00:06:40
my point of view, was very much strengthened from the00:06:43
difficult hand of Solzhenitsyn in the early 90s00:06:46
because this is the book How00:06:48
to Equip Russia, it was created like00:06:51
this practically, that is, they said00:06:53
that it was created by its creator, there were00:06:54
many prophets before him, but he, as00:06:57
it were, presented this pill00:07:00
in such a00:07:03
sweet shell that it was swallowed by the00:07:07
communist Ritas when he wrote00:07:10
the brooch How to equip Russia there is not such an00:07:14
ambiguous message00:07:15
Russia does not need dependents therefore00:07:22
Russia needs to get rid of all the Baltic states and even more alien00:07:27
Central Asians by the way,00:07:29
this speech by the00:07:31
President of Tajikistan at the meeting of the00:07:34
heads of00:07:36
the CIS showed very well this is the00:07:39
relationship this really was from00:07:41
everyone we need to get rid of it But there are three00:07:43
peoples, three peoples who are actually00:07:45
one people and they should be together00:07:48
and00:07:49
in general this is the ideologeme it has00:07:53
always been for the workers. If we talk about00:07:57
why it is needed because00:08:00
this is the elite it is like would believe that00:08:03
this is her Creed, and this is very connected with the fact00:08:07
that this is necessary, firstly, because00:08:09
you asked a question that for me is even00:08:11
more interesting00:08:15
patter at the beginning, what are the goals of00:08:17
all this, that is, these goals under What00:08:21
Ukraine was subjected to this from the point of view from the point of view,00:08:23
the goal is very interesting00:08:26
because they made this Faith such a feigned00:08:29
goal, the simple goal is to make the power of the00:08:33
group that seized the00:08:36
state in Russia over Russia eternal00:08:39
And how to make this stolen power00:08:42
eternal And there must be a war because00:08:45
the war will justify their control over00:08:48
the country And on in fact, isn’t it00:08:51
paradoxical With all the skepticism and humor,00:08:53
all these articles by Surkov that00:08:56
preceded Surkov, abandoned,00:08:59
abandoned and forced, which00:09:02
preceded this military company,00:09:04
these are the signals that he00:09:07
seemed to someone to be senile, it turned out to be one00:09:09
can say that he was revealing the truth that he was00:09:12
sending that the eternal war is the00:09:16
only way in which you can create an00:09:18
eternal Russia, read the last two00:09:21
articles This is the truth they need an eternal00:09:24
war an00:09:25
eternal war within the framework of which Russia00:09:27
will become such a superpower and this will00:09:30
justify their being in power00:09:32
Ukraine itself Sometimes you need why00:09:35
Ukraine turns out From a practical point of00:09:38
view An excellent reason for this00:09:41
eternal war and the eternal retention of power and00:09:43
Victory over it gives returns00:09:47
Yes, but victory is at the bottom, it is found going beyond the00:09:51
horizon, a girl running into the distance00:09:53
is actually the Olympic principle00:09:56
Victory is not important, participation in the war is important, in00:09:58
my opinion it’s already working, it’s00:10:02
so risky00:10:05
Well according to these Apparently they are burning,00:10:08
they have to risk00:10:11
Mikhail Borisovich00:10:14
that you completely agree with Vladimir, it’s00:10:18
absolutely drying what he’s00:10:23
discussing here. It’s obvious that Putin00:10:26
is solving internal political problems with a war in Ukraine. I really00:10:30
agree with the fact that the main00:10:33
task that he initially had was to00:10:36
preserve himself authorities and he solves this00:10:40
problem with the help of war quite00:10:42
successfully, although it is risky but so far00:10:47
successful00:10:48
if we consider that the war has been going on since00:10:51
1999,00:10:54
I mean then one war then00:10:56
another then a third Then now 400:10:59
This means every time he has00:11:02
problems with00:11:05
legitimacy Every time he00:11:07
has problems with his electoral00:11:10
rating, he starts a war and, in general, is00:11:12
quite successful, this is a plus in his00:11:15
head. Of course, there is this00:11:16
messianism, where you can’t get away from it, all the00:11:19
bandits are at such an old00:11:21
age. They suffer from this messianism,00:11:24
you can look at00:11:27
Gordon’s interview with Mejose. We also see00:11:30
Putin, so to speak, only in a slightly more00:11:33
rounded and comical form, but00:11:36
there is a significant Aspect because00:11:39
it somehow finds reflection on00:11:41
Russian society. That is, if00:11:44
Russian society did not accept war at00:11:47
all.00:11:49
If there00:11:52
were no desire00:11:55
to go to the ground in the fields of Ukraine and00:11:58
kill Ukrainians, then apparently00:12:02
such a story with support for the00:12:06
strengthening of the regime would not have happened either, but in00:12:08
my opinion this is an interesting question for00:12:10
Russian society in the broad sense00:12:13
Why am I here again agreeing with00:12:16
my role today as00:12:18
my Borisech in relation to a certain00:12:21
religious component Well, which has00:12:24
really lived Ever since00:12:27
Ukraine separated Russia from In general,00:12:32
at different times there was quite a hostile00:12:35
environment and it was important that these were the ones that00:12:38
detected these confrontations and00:12:41
so on And since then, this in history00:12:43
in the head is completely00:12:46
inadequate from the point of view of modern00:12:48
weapons of the modern geopolitical00:12:51
environment, but so to speak,00:12:53
people don’t think about it, it’s00:12:56
just in the head there is another version,00:12:59
it’s00:13:00
a little more pragmatic Well, in00:13:04
a sense, we live in a bad way. And what does it00:13:07
mean to00:13:08
have control00:13:10
over Ukraine, but in essence, the00:13:16
only difference is that those00:13:20
bosses who sit in the Kremlin00:13:23
will now rule not only us but also our00:13:24
neighbors, that is, we live in a bad way. And what about the00:13:27
neighbors? Well, let them live they also00:13:29
suck, that’s it too In general, quite a00:13:33
motivational story, but00:13:35
the rest are pragmatic stories00:13:38
Real pragmatic stories00:13:39
relating to the economy concerning Freedom of00:13:43
movement concerning the Russian language00:13:46
for Russian-speaking Ukraine and everything00:13:48
else They were solved perfectly before00:13:53
the war that began in 1914 and00:13:57
could have been solved00:13:59
further and better And00:14:02
we found it perfectly. Even if00:14:08
any, let it be said in heated debates,00:14:13
but nevertheless, the solution to all sorts of00:14:15
different problems arising between00:14:18
neighbors and, in general,00:14:21
pragmatic tasks was not for00:14:24
me now, of course, they will remind you about00:14:27
Donbass, but I was in Donbass just in the00:14:31
fourteenth year, all when all this00:14:33
began and the poison saw with my own eyes that00:14:36
this was the goal, a tense00:14:40
Kremlin story, this is just a stupid name00:14:44
started, provoked, deployed and00:14:48
destroyed the beautiful beautiful city of00:14:51
Donetsk. I have destroyed it Peaceful00:14:55
absolutely,00:14:57
but for me in general, I must say, I00:15:00
was in Donetsk for the first time and I never00:15:02
thought that Donetsk is in my head, too,00:15:05
some kind of Soviet00:15:10
coal coal coal I think there’s00:15:13
such a Green city here a green00:15:15
beautiful city a gorgeous airport00:15:20
beautiful streets people who for God’s sake00:15:23
just don’t think so and nothing But00:15:26
I’m up to that I was in Kiev and with Poroshenko.00:15:29
In general, I talked, I understood that the Kiev00:15:32
elite, well, in general, that is, there were no00:15:37
ideas regarding, so to speak, Donetsk. If00:15:41
they had to sort out their problems,00:15:43
that means there were no ideas at all,00:15:46
and here these guys00:15:47
are crawling in and they are starting to tell you that00:15:50
We are now going to ban the Russian language, everything will00:15:52
be destroyed from you, here a00:15:54
couple of crazy people spoke about why the00:15:58
Russian language should be banned in the Donbass.00:16:00
Now they will do all this damn these00:16:03
crazy people in every country, so to speak,00:16:07
100 people 200 people I don’t know you00:16:09
can find anyone, and on this basis,00:16:13
first a beautiful city was simply destroyed,00:16:17
and then00:16:19
many other beautiful cities in00:16:22
general, if we are talking about00:16:25
what the00:16:28
war for the possession of Ukraine is, this is the00:16:33
criminal00:16:36
desire of00:16:38
Putin and the Putin gang to remain in00:16:42
power, which they are now dragging00:16:45
through00:16:46
hundreds of thousands00:16:49
lives of hundreds of thousands, that is, this is00:16:53
what all this talk about the Russian00:16:55
world about the construction of the Russian world is00:16:57
just such an00:16:59
ideological justification for a completely00:17:01
pragmatic task that the00:17:04
Putin regime sets for itself, I absolutely don’t00:17:07
believe that Putin and those around him are00:17:11
going so far, they are not so idiots00:17:13
They understood perfectly well that as a result of00:17:16
this confrontation the situation with00:17:19
Russian culture in Ukraine would00:17:22
worsen and not improve, but they are00:17:24
idiots again, they understood this perfectly well. They understood perfectly well,00:17:27
as we all00:17:30
understand perfectly well, that it was possible until00:17:33
14 to endlessly improve the situation of00:17:36
Russian culture in Ukraine,00:17:38
there were millions of00:17:40
mutually beneficial00:17:43
mutually beneficial economic methods Unfortunately,00:17:47
but Mikhail Borisovich and Vladimir Borisovich,00:17:50
look, but in the fourteenth year Putin00:17:52
was offended00:17:54
Putin was offended by the Western even it00:17:57
was even in the fall of 13 at home and Dan00:18:01
When Yanukovych abandoned00:18:05
this road map of00:18:08
cooperation and entry into the European Union00:18:11
and then it was all then, in fact,00:18:14
and this whole Bucha arose that ended with the00:18:17
Maidan Bucha sounds bad in today's00:18:20
conditions00:18:24
which ended which ended with the00:18:27
Maidan00:18:29
to a large extent Putin was00:18:31
not offended by the Maidan He was not00:18:35
offended maybe he was afraid of the Maidan as an00:18:38
example of what could happen to him and his regime00:18:41
to expect in Russia for some reason They in Ukraine00:18:45
always see some kind of mirror of Russia Yes, it’s00:18:49
as if they look in the mirror there there00:18:51
is no such feeling there This is Vladimir00:18:54
Borisovich Can I just a little because a00:18:58
good thought comes and then Mikhail00:19:02
Borisovich knows how to00:19:07
cut off my philosophy, that this gives rise to a00:19:11
desire to philosophize,00:19:17
that we must understand that Putin00:19:21
used war as a means of00:19:24
stabilizing the regime as the Last Patron,00:19:29
looking at things honestly, we can say that00:19:31
he used all other methods before that,00:19:33
and from my point of view, somewhere around the00:19:37
year 18, he approached that point when it00:19:41
was necessary to either shoot at others or00:19:43
shoot himself, but naturally choosing00:19:46
between killing others or00:19:48
shooting himself, he had to kill others, that00:19:50
is, in fact, the situation00:19:52
developed in00:19:54
such a way that they used00:19:56
all the others for this. They tried to deceive the00:19:58
people. They tried to bribe people, but00:20:01
then this power became more and more00:20:03
effective, it hardly got00:20:07
through such a micro revolution of00:20:12
9-11, which then caused the subsidence of world00:20:15
markets and then it was catchy, it00:20:19
was always clear that those who are powerlessly00:20:21
acting without such a direct injection of00:20:25
adrenaline in the heart of the system00:20:27
cannot be saved.00:20:29
You must understand that war is the00:20:31
last cartridge. That is, he no00:20:34
longer had other cartridges and he put it out.00:20:36
Now the second thing is, if we still return00:20:38
to these00:20:39
articles by Surkov. And now I’m even00:20:42
talking about my steps, we need to00:20:44
reconsider the last two, especially00:20:46
before the war, then I00:20:50
cleared it up with00:20:53
education00:20:55
and having removed all the words behind which we need to00:20:59
understand their meaning, we need to staircase an epic00:21:02
dictionary, there is a simple thought,00:21:06
every power, of course,00:21:08
that is, sooner or later, this is00:21:11
anti-corruption Propaganda and then00:21:13
it will be pleasant for everyone else, that00:21:17
is, the people will have a persistent allergy to00:21:21
this regime, they will turn brown it will become ossified, it will become00:21:26
bureaucratic, it will be absolutely00:21:27
ineffective, it will die, it can be postponed for00:21:30
five years, it can be postponed for 10 years, it’s00:21:33
a matter of time, death is inevitable, the first00:21:37
thesis00:21:38
can be accepted, and then he says that00:21:42
the only way to get out of this00:21:44
dead end is perpetual movement,00:21:48
perpetual movement through the acquisition and00:21:51
development of new territories because Of00:21:53
course, we don’t need territories as such,00:21:55
but the process of eating them is00:21:59
such a fascinating thing that it will take you00:22:02
know, remember, I do00:22:05
n’t remember the details, like00:22:09
I bought crayons for cockroaches in my head,00:22:12
I gave it out, it seems to work while I’m quietly drawing,00:22:16
here’s00:22:18
Surkov’s performance of the war, these are such00:22:21
small cockroaches in my head,00:22:24
it’s understood that they’re trying to00:22:26
cheat the legitimacy of power00:22:36
is an eternal war for the development of the00:22:40
territory of Donbass there will be the development of the entire00:22:42
territory of Ukraine, even more crayons and00:22:45
then Eastern Europe, this is generally a whole00:22:47
set And so the galamanshat, well, that is,00:22:50
waved from the joke of course00:22:52
And then it seemed that it was in numbers, but00:22:55
now it turns out that this is your opinion and00:22:59
then I will say, returning to what you00:23:01
just said,00:23:03
that in general, of course, there are always00:23:06
Putin’s complexes and grievances. He is generally an00:23:08
incredibly complex person and00:23:11
unfortunately for all of us, but it seems to me00:23:14
that something matters less and less than the00:23:17
Collective Will of that class of00:23:20
that class this class of guardsmen00:23:23
whom he heads, he also created but00:23:27
is also an exponent of their will. This is no00:23:29
less important. That is, this is the Collective00:23:31
Will of the class, this attempt by him to form a00:23:35
concept of self-preservation and another00:23:37
concept of self-preservation other than war, there is00:23:40
no further question: Why is this the00:23:42
only question not00:23:45
why they formulated it for you And why is it00:23:48
interesting? You understand Why, it seems00:23:52
clear why Ukraine is a00:23:55
hair salon Why not Northern00:23:58
Kazakhstan00:24:01
could also give out00:24:04
a lot of crayons, they would also draw with00:24:07
pleasure00:24:08
Transnistria, a lot more is00:24:16
needed over Ukraine, it would still be possible to00:24:18
fly over00:24:19
here, no, very interesting for me00:24:22
because it rests on two very00:24:25
powerful myths, one we kind of00:24:28
designated is the myth that Russia is without00:24:32
Ukraine. This is very funny. Russia without00:24:36
Ukraine is not an empire and00:24:38
cannot exist; it goes back00:24:40
somewhere very deep into the centuries; it refers to Yes,00:24:44
some- then liars are so now very generally00:24:47
fashionable in00:24:48
such films to choose some00:24:51
historical figure Bismarck is often00:24:53
very used for these purposes by Marx of00:24:56
someone and put some quotes00:24:58
then launched on the Internet These people00:25:00
begin to say things that if00:25:02
told during their lifetime they would probably die00:25:05
ahead of time,00:25:16
like a Chinese fake, but like a real00:25:21
German philosophy And so, it’s like00:25:24
this is the idea that Russia, the00:25:26
Russian Empire does not exist without00:25:28
Ukraine, that if you pull out a tooth of Ukraine, then00:25:33
Russia will instantly fall apart, there is00:25:36
Ukraine if I remake Volodin, at the00:25:39
moment00:25:40
this is funny They after all, they don’t understand what00:25:43
they are saying, today, in essence, the slogan of00:25:46
Russian statehood is this:00:25:49
Ukraine is Russia, there is no Ukraine, there is no00:25:53
Russia, it turns out that this is00:25:57
such a complex. So they seem to00:25:58
think that there is no Ukraine in Russia00:26:01
in general, it00:26:04
simply cannot exist on its own. What’s00:26:07
surprising is that in the West there is an00:26:09
absolutely symmetrical00:26:11
mythology, that is,00:26:14
I have a lot of people. Dear00:26:16
British professors who often write to me,00:26:18
you understand that Putin is a person in history00:26:21
who lost Ukraine forever for00:26:26
Russia and this is very important and that is why00:26:31
this torments him and that is why A further00:26:35
Russia, let's not be able to Putin will find in00:26:39
history a criminal who started an00:26:41
aggressive war00:26:42
Contrary to all the norms of international law, as for00:26:45
someone who was lost. It00:26:49
seems to me that after 91 years, everything else00:26:52
is funny talk, but there is a second00:26:55
mythologeme besides this one, this one was discussed,00:26:58
this is a great mythologeme about Russians as the00:27:01
largest divided people,00:27:04
this is also very important because at00:27:07
the core, these are the answers to the question00:27:10
why Ukraine Why Because here,00:27:12
as it were, is the largest part of the00:27:14
divided people, and this is how00:27:18
they count differently, 10-12 8 million people.00:27:22
which Russians abandoned such a00:27:25
huge, as it were, Ordinary Russian district00:27:29
that needs to be saved. At any cost this00:27:35
flashed through my mind somewhere, heard the hand of00:27:39
YouTube. She throws out all sorts of things depending00:27:42
on her interests. So she00:27:45
threw out to me an interview with a lemon from Vladivos, the00:27:48
first year of a young still such a passionate lemon00:27:54
criticizes Putin they criticize this entire00:27:58
New Democratic Power, they00:28:01
abandoned 12 million Russians, this is a00:28:03
civil war00:28:04
and then this is a huge mythology00:28:08
that needs to be understood. Because00:28:10
if you look from this point of view, then they are still00:28:13
not the most divided people,00:28:15
the most divided people in this case00:28:17
are the Anglo-Saxons take and here is the problem of the00:28:21
British that00:28:24
300 million00:28:27
live overseas and that’s what we need to00:28:30
go to war to save this This is, in general,00:28:36
of course, a failure of trying to comprehend the process00:28:40
of decolonization to emerge from it into a00:28:43
national state in a reasonably00:28:46
civil way, but since00:28:48
other empires of the 19th century did it, carefully00:28:53
breaking it off surpluses and turning into a00:28:55
national state,00:28:57
some kind of stupor arose here, that is, indeed,00:29:00
philosophical mental problems were not00:29:02
resolved, including at the level of the00:29:05
Russian intelligentsia at the level of00:29:07
the intellectual Elites, she had to00:29:09
give answers to those questions without giving answers00:29:12
to those questions, she provoked00:29:14
this one a rude00:29:15
belligerent answer that grew up this00:29:19
Why didn’t Sorry Vladimir Why didn’t00:29:21
you give it yourself you yourself quoted00:29:24
Solzhenitsyn and lemon I’m still the00:29:27
opposite of the one in which well00:29:30
which ones you want00:29:33
relatively speaking she gave the answer she00:29:36
gave and this answer in general00:29:39
is one of the factors of the war, that is, do00:29:42
n’t tell me now that I’m diffusion00:29:45
of responsibility,00:29:47
like saying that00:29:51
Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin is to blame for everything, let’s00:29:56
redo Volodin once again there is Putin00:29:59
there is a problem No Putin there is no problem00:30:02
this is a lot of people were ready 6 to divide00:30:05
that’s right said Mikhail Borisovich, if00:30:09
this soil had not existed among the people,00:30:12
these seeds would not have been planted. And I will add to this00:30:15
if intellectuals in the 90s had sorted it out in their heads00:30:17
and understood that the path00:30:22
should go through the sequence of00:30:26
decommunization through understanding00:30:29
demerization through understanding00:30:33
what decolonization is00:30:36
here now everything will be understood for us,00:30:39
they would have killed these mythologemes about a single00:30:43
people, they would have sorted them out, then there would have been00:30:45
no Bolshevik, it’s not like that at first00:30:50
they ignored him, then they put him there,00:30:53
then they transplanted the rest, and then he00:30:56
paired off the already00:30:58
used00:31:01
states, there would be fewer problems of the00:31:04
Chinese war, many fathers Unfortunately, there are a00:31:07
lot of fathers, well, thank you,00:31:34
to the question00:31:36
of mirroring, and to what extent does Russia in00:31:40
Ukraine see itself in the mirror? And the00:31:44
reaction to the Maidan,00:31:47
as it seems to me,00:31:50
for Putin, it was precisely this00:31:53
fear that Russians would see00:31:57
their reflection in Ukraine that was a significant factor. I don’t I know00:31:59
how much it would actually be,00:32:03
we are trying to overcome it with the help of propaganda,00:32:06
to what extent it would be possible to cope with it.00:32:09
But the fact that he was afraid of this00:32:11
is without any doubt the Maidan,00:32:15
just such a demonstrative00:32:18
change of dictator. Well, or the man00:32:22
who tried to become dictator00:32:25
Yanukovych was not00:32:27
it Putin's protege, in any case,00:32:31
this of course greatly irritated him, we00:32:35
see this in other regions where he00:32:38
fits in exactly the same way with all the00:32:41
autocrats, dictators, and so on00:32:47
and so forth everywhere because of course, for00:32:50
some00:32:52
unknown or known reasons, he has a00:32:55
combination in his head after all, its role with the roles of00:32:59
these wonderful people, it00:33:01
happened. And for him, after all, this is a00:33:05
frightening story. And it’s a completely frightening00:33:08
story when it happens right here,00:33:10
right next door. Because when it comes00:33:14
to some kind of Kazakhstan, I don’t know.00:33:16
Uzbekistan and so on, you can00:33:18
say that this is a different country, this is a00:33:21
different people, a different type of people, a00:33:24
culture, a different culture, that in this00:33:27
case some analogies are being drawn there,00:33:29
America and generally different Anglo-Saxons, as00:33:33
Borevich correctly noted, the most00:33:35
divided people in the world are carrying out00:33:37
these democratizations this is not00:33:39
suitable for us because we are completely different00:33:41
Ukraine Now00:33:44
I will specifically say00:33:47
but meaningful in such a00:33:52
practical absolutely form for Russia00:33:56
These are fraternal people, just in the literal00:33:59
sense fraternal there are several tens of00:34:02
millions of people in Russia in Ukraine00:34:06
who are related to each other by00:34:09
direct family ties brothers00:34:12
sisters,00:34:14
uncles, aunts, and so on. That is, here is00:34:20
the experience of Ukraine for Russia. Well, in general, it’s00:34:26
impossible to say that00:34:28
in our country it’s impossible, of course, in our country it’s also00:34:32
possible, and Putin was afraid that after Ukraine,00:34:37
firstly, it gave an example of a00:34:39
change in autocrat,00:34:43
a change in power by direct expression of the people’s00:34:47
will00:34:49
in -secondly, it00:34:51
was clear that Ukraine, having joined the00:34:55
European Union or European00:34:58
structures, would economically trample00:35:01
this upward. Well, in any case, it was terribly00:35:04
scary because it’s00:35:07
wonderful to have such a wonderful state across the border00:35:12
as00:35:14
Lukashenko’s Belarus where you can00:35:16
show, well, you see, they live worse, but00:35:21
we Well done,00:35:22
if Ukraine were a poor00:35:26
democratic state where it would be possible to00:35:28
show people who00:35:30
live worse, that would also be good, but if it00:35:33
were possible, if Ukraine joined the00:35:36
European Union it would go up like00:35:38
China now, in terms of00:35:41
salaries they would overtake Russia and travel00:35:45
to Ukraine to earn money would be good00:35:48
form. This is a terrible dream for00:35:51
Vladimir Putin and I think that this was,00:35:55
of course, an00:35:56
essential aspect00:36:00
[music]00:36:01
on which he made the decisions00:36:04
that he made. Please tell me,00:36:07
Mikhail Borisovich Vladimir Borisovich00:36:10
Why have you been talking for a long time on this00:36:12
topic, you never mentioned the00:36:15
United States, it’s not necessary. Well,00:36:19
you mentioned it once, in my opinion, it’s not necessary, it’s not the00:36:21
United States, that’s what I mean00:36:23
right now. Russian Propaganda very00:36:26
often says that in fact we are00:36:30
not fighting with the United States of Ukraine or00:36:32
there with NATO, which is fighting with us with the hands of the00:36:35
Ukrainians. Are they working out? So00:36:39
I’m00:36:41
scolding everyone over everything for what we say we are00:36:44
because we have now become very different.00:36:45
Yes, are they working out? So Russia is not00:36:49
us. Russia00:36:50
is fighting with the hands of the Ukrainians with NATO and with00:36:55
America for your place If you want at the00:36:58
negotiating table Russia really wants00:37:00
this, it was emphasized many times and before the war,00:37:03
by the way, with Ukraine it wants Well, what00:37:06
we now call Yalta 200:37:08
Russia wants to divide the world00:37:11
Ukraine She considers it her sphere of00:37:15
interests and thus she says00:37:18
America don’t meddle here Yes This is our00:37:20
sphere of interest and is it possible in the00:37:25
modern world00:37:26
to divide the world like this again and in this00:37:31
case the entire post-Soviet space00:37:34
in the eyes of the Kremlin is00:37:36
this our Russian sphere of00:37:41
interest the question is Is it possible00:37:44
today again to divide the world with America00:37:46
This is what is a sign of the Great a strong00:37:50
superpower that Russia00:37:52
really wants to be,00:37:54
but Mikhailovich is now on our screen.00:37:57
Let's start now,00:38:00
let's give it a rest, Vladimir, I would say00:38:04
that this is a rise to some00:38:08
higher level of abstraction from00:38:12
real practical life goals, that00:38:16
is, if we first talk about the00:38:19
fear of a bad dictator example, if00:38:23
we talk about00:38:25
the Russians who00:38:27
could, if they wanted, solve their00:38:32
economic problems with Ukraine00:38:34
much better00:38:37
before 14, economic cultural and00:38:41
so on, if there were such problems, then there00:38:43
probably were always some00:38:46
problems, this is a pragmatic thing,00:38:50
even the00:38:51
religious feeling that00:38:53
he spoke about but this is also some kind00:38:56
of foundation, then this conversation about00:39:00
Russia Yes, and maintaining power, of course,00:39:02
is the main practical foundation for00:39:05
Putin, but this is the division of the world with00:39:10
America, this is some kind of next step,00:39:13
that is, the00:39:15
next level of abstraction when00:39:18
we say that sharing power with With America,00:39:22
we can thereby show the00:39:24
Russian people how great we are. I00:39:28
mean the Putin regime A And00:39:31
thereby strengthen our power Well, and00:39:34
something else like that, well, here it is again.00:39:37
In my opinion, is00:39:39
abstraction00:39:41
really possible today?00:39:45
day to divide the world with America and these are00:39:49
all the conversations that Putin00:39:51
is having about the00:39:54
two superpowers and so on,00:39:58
today Russia is not on the list of00:40:01
these two superpowers on the list of these two00:40:04
means we know who Yes we know yes that is the00:40:10
next potsdam or Yalta Well,00:40:17
Biden will definitely go so to speak Well, or who will be there instead of the00:40:19
baytan with a high degree of probability00:40:21
will Putin let in a side chair but00:40:24
except for the fact that he will run00:40:26
around and like a rattle with00:40:31
nuclear weapons they say that I00:40:34
will kill everyone now and I will kill us all altogether Well,00:40:38
this is such a bit of a gangster role00:40:40
that probably00:40:43
can’t be played out for very long, so you00:40:46
can share the world with America. But I wo00:40:49
n’t reel it in, but do dirty tricks on America00:40:53
so that it sits down at the00:40:55
negotiating table. Well,00:40:57
Putin, in spite of everything, don’t go. So it’s clear00:41:01
what to do dirty tricks on America It’s much better00:41:04
in America on the coast, there, to00:41:08
bait Venezuela a little bit into this, and00:41:11
in Iraq to do some dirty tricks with the00:41:15
small efforts of the00:41:17
Wagnerites. Well, or, uh, structures similar to them,00:41:20
you can, in this sense, achieve the00:41:23
most wonderful, most00:41:25
wonderful results. Well,00:41:27
actually Putin took it, but you know,00:41:31
they tried it once in the belly I00:41:34
mean the Cuban Missile Crisis00:41:36
Well, yes, but it still00:41:39
ended then But it was such a00:41:42
sloppy approach after all, it was such a very00:41:44
global approach And without this it was enough I00:41:47
must say very00:41:49
wisely I would say they came out from that crisis it00:41:58
came to the point that now we00:42:00
’ll all kill ourselves together, then yes,00:42:04
Vladimir is a fighter,00:42:07
I would like to say00:42:10
that no, but apparently yes,00:42:15
that is, purely that no, that yes, yes, purely00:42:19
theoretically, I would like to say that there are00:42:22
no agreements on dividing the sphere of00:42:26
influence of the world and so on impossible00:42:32
[music]00:42:35
and these agreements are possible what00:42:38
happens all the time is what00:42:43
happens what00:42:47
happens to00:42:56
those whom you want00:42:59
Yes, this is life and between states the00:43:03
same thing happens purely00:43:05
theoretically yes it is possible and I am even more00:43:08
possible00:43:11
such formats are also00:43:15
a compromise00:43:16
here turnout is still an agreement00:43:19
of the Winners and the agreement of the Alliance00:43:23
of Winners, but it’s somehow difficult for me to00:43:25
imagine the00:43:30
DPRK as the Alliance of Winners of Russia. The alliance that is emerging here is still here. But the00:43:36
problem with such agreements is the00:43:42
following: that there are two conditions, the00:43:44
first condition00:43:47
Borisovich, the subject must be00:43:50
wealthy now must be00:43:53
wealthy so much in order to be00:43:57
responsible and00:44:00
deserving of a sense of respect, not everyone00:44:03
is respected,00:44:04
comprehend the recognition of strength, the00:44:07
participants of this park and Russia today are00:44:11
in the wrong position, she is trying to play00:44:13
with the help of this very nuclear00:44:16
rattle, the appearance that she is in this00:44:18
position, she is not in it, and the second reason,00:44:21
a lot depends on00:44:23
everything -from the behavior of those peoples00:44:28
due to whom these divisions are taking place00:44:30
and this is what happened in Ukraine. Let's be00:44:34
honest, this is such a00:44:37
completely unexpected thing that happens in00:44:40
history and leads to a completely00:44:42
unpredictable result, but this is not00:44:45
every day and00:44:47
not an ordinary event,00:44:52
probably all the time over the course of00:44:55
twenty years, I constantly, in a harmful manner,00:44:57
reviewed perfume, all historical00:45:00
works, and then looked at the00:45:04
latest work00:45:07
here, a caricature.00:45:09
Well, it’s clear that the00:45:13
corners are shooting a little so that the associations00:45:15
and parallels are quite00:45:19
obvious, probably everything. It’s more complicated, but00:45:21
nevertheless, there it is, a00:45:24
fantastic caricature. I found somewhere from an00:45:28
American newspaper where such a huge00:45:33
wahvat Stalin squatted through a magnifying glass and00:45:36
looked at Finland which began00:45:39
there in 1939 and seemed to have a complete concept00:45:44
that after that division of that division00:45:47
that took place, in fact, there00:45:50
was a division and Finland was given away in this00:45:55
section together in a batch In the agreement00:45:58
with Poland, the00:46:00
Baltic countries gave up the USSR,00:46:05
in general,00:46:11
this is what I tried to look at. Through a magnifying glass, this was worth, in my opinion, a00:46:14
million victims,00:46:15
and in the end Yes, the change of clothes made a00:46:19
compromise. But it was a completely different00:46:21
compromise. It was an00:46:24
honorable compromise where I had to wash my face and wait.00:46:28
Finland defended its independence,00:46:30
but Ukraine, in this sense,00:46:34
Finlandization00:46:37
was preceded by the fact that Finland00:46:39
turned out to be the toughest nut of all00:46:43
that the USSR tried to bite and which the00:46:48
USSR broke a tooth00:46:50
and so Ukraine00:46:52
actually made with its behavior00:46:55
its rebellion against expectations,00:47:00
this is the folder that you say is00:47:02
impossible because It’s impossible to reach00:47:03
an agreement if the people at the expense of whom00:47:07
you want00:47:09
rebelled and didn’t give in didn’t give you00:47:11
the opportunity to do it. Please tell me00:47:13
how00:47:14
they started talking about geopolitics, how00:47:18
they should feel00:47:21
now, I’ll count there were 1500:47:24
without Russia, 14 union republics, but00:47:27
we understand Ukraine. How00:47:29
Belarus feels, too or less clear00:47:32
When do you feel like the other 1200:47:35
former Soviet Republics in this situation,00:47:39
they should look much more Yes00:47:42
Where do they come from, how threatening does00:47:46
Russia look to them today and00:47:49
does Russia need this entire huge00:47:52
territory that was formerly called Soviet00:47:55
Mikhailovich00:47:56
In what sense is it necessary if we we have How00:48:01
like the restoration of the USSR There is a lot there00:48:04
Yes they say about this if it if00:48:07
you say Is it needed as a territory00:48:10
that can be directly controlled and00:48:14
should be part of the new again00:48:18
new Russian Empire I’m not sure that00:48:21
this will improve, firstly, the well-being of the00:48:25
people A secondly, I’m not firmly convinced that00:48:27
this will improve00:48:30
security for the country00:48:32
for Russia itself, but for the obvious00:48:35
reason that today economic power is00:48:39
less connected with the territory. Although00:48:41
it cannot be said that it is not connected00:48:43
with the territory at all, but with the same territory00:48:45
that Russia has00:48:47
economic power00:48:49
uh In general,00:48:52
additional territory does not require;00:48:55
at the same time, the number of problems that00:48:58
would be introduced into the composition of this00:49:01
new state formation in a00:49:04
conscious one in the style of the Soviet Union, it would00:49:07
be completely00:49:10
immeasurable. That is, today it is simply very00:49:12
difficult to measure. And over the past For several00:49:15
decades, the countries have diverged quite00:49:17
far and their past00:49:21
unification, so to speak,00:49:23
was accompanied, in general, by quite00:49:25
harsh and repressions on the outskirts. Is it00:49:27
possible to reproduce this? Today, is it00:49:29
possible to reproduce this in conditions00:49:32
when there are quite powerful00:49:36
powerful poles of force much more powerful00:49:39
than, strictly speaking, Russia itself?00:49:42
again, I’m returning to China.00:49:45
Well, we’re not just talking about China,00:49:49
but probably it’s probably00:49:53
impossible for anyone to deal with this bag of problems00:49:56
if we’re talking about need. Does Russia need00:49:59
good relations with its neighbors, do you need to00:50:07
strengthen your trade positions there and00:50:10
promote them within the framework of these good relations? their culture, so to speak, to00:50:13
promote their companies to try to00:50:17
exert some influence. Well, of course,00:50:20
everyone does this, so to speak, and within the00:50:24
European Union people do it and00:50:27
globally they do it. Well, of course, it is necessary and00:50:30
important that this is done by that same soft00:50:34
power.00:50:36
But it is soft power that does not solve00:50:40
those who are itching to scratch the problem of Great Imperialism00:50:45
and it does not solve the problem of00:50:49
consolidating society through war, that00:50:52
is, in this way, using00:50:55
soft power, pragmatic00:50:58
issues are resolved, such as trade, competitive,00:51:01
etc., but the selfish issues00:51:05
that we have today are not resolved00:51:08
The Kremlin elite Yes, of course, we have seen since the00:51:12
start of the war in Ukraine the situation00:51:15
in the countries surrounding Russia has sharply gone00:51:20
in the other direction, that is, the countries00:51:22
naturally got scared and began to00:51:25
gain distance as much as00:51:27
they could, of course, being between Russia00:51:30
and China, it is not the easiest task to00:51:34
make a choice.00:51:36
elections or maintaining a balance,00:51:38
of course there is a desire to somehow00:51:41
involve America. But America. Well, it does00:51:44
n’t stretch to everyone anymore; the00:51:46
time when it could do it to everyone is over.00:51:49
Why do the elites of00:51:53
Russia’s neighboring countries now face the difficult00:51:56
task of00:51:57
maintaining balance, but they somehow... then they are00:52:01
trying to solve this problem. I would even00:52:05
say such a task00:52:07
with the help of soft power. How do you tell00:52:10
me to distance myself from Russia because it00:52:14
seems that the sanctions must be adhered to00:52:16
otherwise it will be On the other side of00:52:18
the trouble, to distance oneself of course, but00:52:21
at the same time not to fly too far, yes, it’s00:52:26
happening in Armenia yes suddenly Yes,00:52:30
in fact, Armenia is generally changing00:52:33
its orientation with Russia to the West, even00:52:39
trying to resolve this Karabakh crisis, it’s not very00:52:44
easy, what we see is that of course00:52:46
Erdogan is taking advantage of00:52:49
these stupid mistakes and00:52:54
ultimately losing Vladimir00:52:56
Putin in full and in they are00:52:59
also using it in an economic sense in a00:53:01
political sense, increasing their influence in the00:53:05
post-Soviet space. But this is00:53:07
undeniable. I believe that Erdogan is the00:53:11
main beneficiary of what he arranged, but00:53:14
he still needs to win his elections this00:53:16
year,00:53:18
there are problems, they say. Well, let’s see00:53:20
Vladimir00:53:23
Yes, how would you assess the situation Well, the00:53:29
fraternal cholesterol republics you know00:53:32
from Ilya Orenburg00:53:33
[music]00:53:36
people years of life such an episode his00:53:40
friend00:53:42
was part of this delegation of Soviet00:53:46
writers at the White Sea Canal which00:53:49
was supposed to write the00:53:51
happy joyful work of prisoners00:53:54
reforging themselves people of the new time00:53:57
and when he returned someone asked him00:54:01
how you felt00:54:03
and he says I felt like a live00:54:06
fox in the Furs store.00:54:09
I think that00:54:11
almost all00:54:14
post-Soviet elites in the00:54:18
context of the war with Ukraine, everything00:54:21
that Russia is doing in Ukraine, they00:54:24
feel like a live fox in the store00:54:29
from this point of view, of course, the reaction of00:54:32
any00:54:34
little states, when00:54:36
such a threat arises, on the one hand, support00:54:40
themselves on the other hand, and in this sense,00:54:45
they have no alternative. Naturally, they00:54:47
will either fall into the zone of influence of00:54:49
Turkey.00:54:53
It has been sausage for00:54:55
decades and indeed there is00:55:00
already not enough for everyone.00:55:04
I had a very interesting conversation with00:55:07
Boris in Pastukhov’s kitchen because that00:55:13
he just visited the region and then met with00:55:17
one of the largest00:55:19
lawyers who seem to serve00:55:23
French lawyers who00:55:28
know these elites well, the big issue of00:55:31
international tax payments is the right of a00:55:34
person who lives there and he00:55:37
said that from all the conversations there is a way to00:55:40
simplify the00:55:42
representatives of the Elites of00:55:45
Transcaucasia and the Middle Asia, the concept of00:55:49
such a closed position was not advertised,00:55:52
is that they basically gave up00:55:58
in this war to Ukraine and the West, that00:56:04
they believe that there may be some00:56:07
intermediate victories for Russia00:56:09
there, even serious ones. At this stage, but in the00:56:13
perspective of the 20th anniversary, they believe that this00:56:16
war will end with the disintegration of Russia, but00:56:21
approximately as they believe in00:56:23
4-5 states, and we need to adapt to this00:56:28
and think about how to live with this,00:56:30
if we say there is no reason00:56:34
not to trust such an objective person, a fairly00:56:37
impartial person does not work part-time as a00:56:39
political expert, assessments simply00:56:43
integrate the conversations that they have he00:56:45
was, I think that this somehow reflects the00:56:47
reality that they look in two00:56:51
planes at the same time, that is, in the00:56:54
current one, when there is an00:56:55
existential threat for them, they try to00:56:58
avoid it strategically when they have already00:57:00
decided everything for themselves and, in general, see00:57:02
everything except Vladimir Putin, those who00:57:05
surround the Kremlin and strategically00:57:08
decided everything a long time ago and assessed this00:57:11
as the largest geopolitical mistake00:57:15
which, as we remember after Toyorana, is00:57:18
worse than the crime of00:57:20
the Russian Elites. Well, over the last probably00:57:24
three centuries we are completing our program, we00:57:28
have just passed our time to our00:57:32
time expires all I have to do is00:57:33
tell our audience to like00:57:37
and we will definitely meet in a week in the00:57:41
road map program Thank you for being00:57:47
there See you all the best00:57:50
[music]Description:
«Дорожная карта» — еженедельная программа Михаила Ходорковского и Владимира Пастухова. Ведущий — Виталий Дымарский. Новая дискуссия построена вокруг того, какие настоящие цели путинской войны в Украине и зачем вообще России нужна Украина? Ходорковский приходит к выводу, что Путин воюет по олимпийскому принципу: победа — не главное, а главное — участие в войне. Идеи опального Суркова о вечной войне как способе удержания власти стали реальностью. Действительно ли Россия без Украины — не империя, и что по этому поводу говорили Солженицын, Лимонов и Бисмарк, причем тут США, как страны бывшего СССР переходит под влияние Китая и Турции и почему главным бенефициаром российско-украинской войны оказался Эрдоган? Обо всем этом — в часовой беседе Ходорковского, Пастухова и Дымарского. В этом выпуске: 00:00 Трейлер 00:34 Цели СВО меняются, вопросы про Украину остаются 02:21 Пастухов: Чувства России к Украине сродни религии 08:16 Идеи Суркова о вечной войне работают 10:11 Ходорковский: Путин решает войной внутренние проблемы 13:35 Ходорковский о том, как был на Донбассе в 2014-м году 17:47 Пастухов: война была для Путина как последний патрон 24:28 Россия без Украины - не империя? 26:55 Пастухов о мифологеме о русских как разделенном народе 31:24 Ходорковский: Путин боялся что россияне увидят в Украине своё отражение 36:07 Причем тут США? 47:12 Угрожает ли Россия остальным странам бывшего СНГ? 53:22 Пастухов об интересах Турции и Китая Прошлый выпуск: ХОДОРКОВСКИЙ и ПАСТУХОВ: Станет ли Россия окраиной Китая? Империя как колония. Назаров и Хабенский / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU-uL74M2Kg ШЕНДЕРОВИЧ: Путин боится девочку Катю. Дудь с Кучерой. Солженицын. Навальный как обменный фонд / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-UjZ4PDcQc ПАСТУХОВ: Путинская мобилизация-2023. Леопарды для Киева. Володин грозит ядерной войной / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BF1ytjo3BU НОВАЯ ПРОГРАММА: «Технократия» с Василием Азаровым: Айфоны в России отключат? Windows 7 — всё. Нейросеть с голосом человека https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDx_aIp8pRw ИНОЗЕМЦЕВ: 20% россиян живут на подачки от власти. Война с Украиной стала народной. Юани из ФНБ / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfZz7m8FnQg КРУТИХИН: Скидки на нефть разоряют Россию. Очковтирательство Сечина. $38 за баррель / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwBqWGeUD8o АСЛАНЯН: Продажи АвтоВАЗа упали на 46%. «Нива» до 2030 года. Штрафы автоматом. Памяти Кена Блока / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ajhp-WNcT8 Дмитрий БЫКОВ: Соледар, Путин и Чебурашка, куда едут Леопарды и летят кукурузники? / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DheVQwrJwv8 АЛЕКСАШЕНКО: Греф оказался обычным коррупционером. Путин срывается на чиновников https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXnlaLk5NQs Программа «ИЗНАНКА»: Кто попадёт под мобилизацию? | Россия после войны https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VCtkI9AqNk Блог Михаила Ходорковского: https://www.youtube.com/user/khodorkovskyru ============================= Плейлисты: ► Блог Ходорковского: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7kI1pJUZbs&list=PLUpN6Si0hGl4Grv-wza2qAaE322NcoK0c ► Ответы на вопросы: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asGc56bUvs8&list=PLUpN6Si0hGl7VIGZSi0O6vmqGTNKnqb9Y ► Интервью с Ходорковским: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUpN6Si0hGl6NhQa9nhFk3E6bwAgml7yM ► Правозащита: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4WjEvgt0tg&list=PLUpN6Si0hGl7aRDjrl1vICk3jXAjFtNtG Социальные сети: ► Twitter: http://bit.ly/MBK-Twitter ► Instagram: https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser ► Telegram: https://t.me/khodorkovski ► Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser ► ВКонтакте: http://bit.ly/MBK-VKontakte =============================
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