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Про Бориса Надеждина

39:35

У каких протестов большой потенциал?

41:55

Есть ли положительный вариант развития событий в России?

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00:00:16

Hello friends, it’s 17 o’clock in Moscow and you’re

00:00:18

watching Honest on the channel

00:00:20

popular politics My name is Irina

00:00:23

Aliman, as usual, I encourage you to

00:00:24

like, write comments in the chat, ask

00:00:27

paid questions through super chat or using

00:00:31

Friend And of course, support you in the

00:00:33

way that is most convenient for you

00:00:36

this is either a patreon or sponsorship on the

00:00:38

tube, I’ll remind you that you can donate it, we’ll go

00:00:41

straight to the conversation with our

00:00:43

guest today, our guest is the long-awaited sociologist

00:00:45

Grigory Yudin Grigory,

00:00:47

hello Hello, Irina is glad to

00:00:51

welcome you, but I want to start

00:00:53

with probably not the most pleasant news, not the

00:00:56

most pleasant possible question in

00:00:58

less than a week ago recognized as a foreign agent

00:01:00

together with you recognized as a foreign agent

00:01:03

lecture hall Living Word in Tver where you

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gave a lecture How do you feel in

00:01:09

this capacity and how do you think this

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stigma from the Ministry of Justice is generally perceived

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in the mass consciousness Well, of course,

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in addition to the restrictions that it

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imposes on Russians in

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Russia it means they recognized that they were

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appointed at all, who

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appointed you if you were put on the execution

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list and were sentenced to death,

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what if they declared you dead or something? No, you

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were just shot, this is some strange

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Putin language that I don’t understand.

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Why should you use it? They didn’t

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recognize. Vladimir Putin compiled a

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list in which declares people his

00:01:51

enemies his associates are constantly

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adding to this list, that’s what’s happening, they have

00:01:55

n’t recognized anything in the abstract, it’s not like they’ve

00:01:58

recognized someone, there’s no

00:02:02

there is a list that Vladimir

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Putin compiles, his confidants are constantly adding to this list of people

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whom he appoints as his enemies, so he’s

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actually adding to this list

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As

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for my person,

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what happened on February 24 of this

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year at that moment It was obvious that this

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would have catastrophic

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consequences for a huge number of

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people, for the birth of children, people, it would be a

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serious grief for many many

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years. What is someone doing there?

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Putin’s lists are some kind of

00:02:43

insignificant trifle against this background, and this

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also applies to my person, too, there is a

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lot of grief and

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misfortune ahead, shot on the list And besides us, there are

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still a huge number of people and

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some of them remain in Russia,

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so my question is partly was

00:03:07

dictated by how

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this is really perceived in society now,

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whether people feel sympathy if there is

00:03:14

some kind of trend in society. That’s exactly the

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attitude towards this label to this

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hit list, well, let’s

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leave it and really talk about

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that question is not a question, a clear question But

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since in Russia in general, people

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try to stay as far away

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from politics as possible for quite a long time, and with the outbreak of

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war especially, this is naturally

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the most dangerous part of what is connected

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with politics, so well, people

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try to stay as far away from this as possible,

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as far as we can see from those studies

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that there is an idea to discriminate in fact,

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fellow citizens do not enjoy the

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support of the Russians and the idea that

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let us

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appoint enemies no, this idea in general does not

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respond well with support.

00:04:02

Well, that means it does not react very

00:04:04

well. In the sense that it is not

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welcomed. Well, who knows what? Russia does not

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welcome Putin’s war, nor does it

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welcome it, nevertheless it

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continues. When you say that

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Putin’s war is not welcomed, you are

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relying on some data because

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from the very beginning of the war everyone generally

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recognized that sociology in war

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conditions is

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impossible no, that sociology in war

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conditions this is impossible no one

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said it is rather about the limitations

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that arise in connection with issues of

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public opinion the issue of

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public opinion is not

00:04:37

sociology it is some very

00:04:39

specific political

00:04:42

instrument with it, as it were, there are

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quite big problems it has

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quite serious limitations from the point of

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view of it validity, speaking in

00:04:49

scientific

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language Well, it is clear that in conditions of war

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these restrictions do not increase more strongly due to the fact

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that this instrument is completely

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useless,

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completely useless from the point of view of its

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use as such a referendum, that

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is, how the

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Kremlin usually invites us to look at it from this point

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of view Yes this is a useless tool, but

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this does not mean that there are no resources and

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sociology does not even mean that it is

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impossible to see anything from these surveys over the

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last 2 years. It seems to me that there is a

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more or less consensus among

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researchers, and researchers of

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completely different types there, I don’t know how

00:05:30

those

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who

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categorically, as it were, turned away from these

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adventures of the Russian government and

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those who continue to work with

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the Kremlin, this consensus is that the

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share of those who

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inspire some specific assessments

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But this is a significant

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minority, we also have the

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opposite group A group

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that,

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well, internally at least protests

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against these decisions, which is

00:06:18

probably most tired of

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Vladimir Putin, it is either the same

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size or maybe a little larger.

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Based on the fact that it is more difficult to

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get, between them there are the majority of

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fellow citizens who, as was said,

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are trying to stay away from all this,

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accepts all this how

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inevitable they try not to think

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about

00:06:36

anything at all Well, last year at the end of

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last year, political scientist Andrei

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Kolesnikov and sociologist Levada and Denis

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Volkov published such a unique

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report on the mood of society and, if

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very briefly and simply, it boiled down

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to the fact that Russians have, for the most part,

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adapted to the war, you share

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this

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thesis VM

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can

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be checked. I don’t see a way here to

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record whether they have adapted or not

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adapted. But the fact that the reaction to what is

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happening political events in

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Russia is the main reaction. In general,

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practically the only reaction is

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adaptation; I agree with this. Well, yes. If

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you can’t do something... what to do about

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what is happening, and in Russia no one

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experiences such

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illusions, then yes, you need to adapt to this,

00:07:25

so people adapt

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in general very well, they know

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how to adapt, this is our cultural tradition. But tell me, after all, the ability

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to adapt. And when I say this,

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I don’t attach any negative

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connotations or additional meanings, but

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one way or another, this ability to

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adapt is a cultural feature

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or is it a kind of national idea. Well, that

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is, is this a property or is it some kind of

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foundation? No. What is a national

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idea in this case, I didn’t understand it in

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principle, well, it’s another Putin,

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another Putin construct,

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this is, in principle, characteristic

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of such autocratic systems that

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are built on depolymerization.

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What is politics? Why does it need to be

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dealt with at the level of common sense?

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It’s not clear what a wallet is and

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Why it needs to be filled.

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but plus to this Yes, there is,

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of course, a certain Russian cultural tradition

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associated with the relationship with

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the state, it

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presupposes adaptation. Well, such

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adaptation is a cunning adaptation, that is,

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the ability to simultaneously not conflict with

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the state because it is useless.

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She will crush you anyway and not

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obey it, that is, the

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obvious ethics have eluded in Russia has developed

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related to the fact that it’s

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impossible to do anything about it anyway, nothing is impossible with this war,

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I won’t try, this hopeless

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business will end badly, but if

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possible, I personally won’t have

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anything to do with it. If they

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force me directly, I will do something. do it for

00:09:32

show But mostly I will try to

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get away from this, it

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eludes the thief, don’t get involved with the sick, and

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so on, yes, it won’t change anything, but

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let it be credited to me in the next world for

00:09:45

pushing people out of politics, and here I

00:09:48

return to your lecture about

00:09:50

democracy, what went wrong with it so

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which you just read in the lecture The

00:09:54

Living Word and this repression was

00:09:56

predetermined, but here the lecture is on

00:09:59

fire, it asks an open question what went

00:10:01

wrong with democracy in Russia, but you

00:10:03

personally in the lecture immediately talk about the fact that

00:10:04

perhaps everything went exactly according to plan

00:10:07

Was this very

00:10:08

displacement of

00:10:12

society predetermined? The lecture that I gave in

00:10:17

Tver has the goal of finding some

00:10:21

ideological

00:10:22

foundations for the situation in which We

00:10:25

found ourselves, of course, it was predetermined.

00:10:30

Well, a strange word, we are talking in general about the

00:10:33

events that took place there

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about 30 years ago and the ideological

00:10:37

foundations that were laid at that time

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if everything was

00:10:40

predetermined, then everything would look like this,

00:10:42

which means 30 years ago something was

00:10:43

done and then everyone else just

00:10:45

drove up the slope and were passengers,

00:10:49

of course No, of course it’s not like that, it’s

00:10:51

more about the fact that at that moment a

00:10:53

powerful ideology was formed which

00:10:56

since then has generally been supported and

00:10:58

reproduced

00:10:59

which Since then no

00:11:01

adequate

00:11:03

answer has been given, mainly because

00:11:05

no one actually

00:11:06

questioned this ideology which, in general,

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quite calmly

00:11:11

unites the people who

00:11:13

are in power in Russia today, and in

00:11:18

various bodies, starting with the Kremlin and

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continuing there with the central bank and the People

00:11:23

who controlled Russia in the early

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decades and carried out aggressive

00:11:29

market reforms, yes, this is the same

00:11:33

ideology, this is an

00:11:34

ideology based on the fact that the most

00:11:38

important thing, of course, is to

00:11:40

build a market economy, the most

00:11:43

important thing is to create a

00:11:45

competitive environment, and the question that

00:11:48

actually interested me in this lecture was

00:11:49

the question of democracy, in general, no one was seriously

00:11:51

concerned about and believed that it would be resolved on

00:11:53

its own. These are the ideological

00:11:56

foundations on which all this was

00:11:57

based and Vladimir Putin continues the regime quite

00:12:00

smoothly this line, both

00:12:02

ideologically and purely biographically, he

00:12:04

comes out of this environment. He himself was part of

00:12:09

this community that

00:12:14

is pushing this ideology, he was a supporter of the

00:12:16

private economy and remains, and Russia,

00:12:19

as a party to the private economy,

00:12:22

remains its most effective

00:12:24

managers, as they sat in the economic

00:12:26

block and

00:12:27

sit in their idea of the world,

00:12:30

nothing has changed in this sense Yes, we see

00:12:32

continuity because once again this

00:12:35

ideology has never been

00:12:37

questioned Well, this is literally what

00:12:40

Alexei Navalny wrote in his manifesto about the

00:12:42

mistakes of the nineties How do you evaluate it

00:12:45

By the way I think that Alexey has started a very

00:12:48

important discussion, uh, you can only,

00:12:51

uh, admire a person who, in the

00:12:54

current conditions, has the strength to start the

00:12:58

Key

00:12:59

key public conversation is a

00:13:00

conversation without which nothing can be

00:13:02

changed now, because until

00:13:06

this illusion is eliminated,

00:13:08

the illusion that you just need to go back

00:13:10

in the nineties, do the same thing again

00:13:12

And then we will succeed.

00:13:15

Until this illusion is

00:13:17

eliminated, there will be no chance of

00:13:19

change in Russia. And the people

00:13:22

who will represent it will

00:13:24

continue to utter anti-people

00:13:25

slogans, as they actually

00:13:27

did in at the beginning and will

00:13:29

receive the same reaction with the same

00:13:31

consequences, what

00:13:34

I don’t agree with with Alexey is that it

00:13:40

seems to me that he is inclined to blame for

00:13:45

what happened. Well, the bad elites, that

00:13:48

is, at that moment,

00:13:54

greedy corrupt people who

00:13:56

thought only about myself

00:13:59

this is sot Ilya that you can just put

00:14:01

other good guys and they will do the

00:14:04

same thing, but now it’s

00:14:05

good for me this is once again

00:14:09

an ideological problem The problem was not that

00:14:11

the wrong people were there,

00:14:13

but the problem was that these people

00:14:16

didn’t matter if they were right or

00:14:18

they began

00:14:19

to implement it incorrectly Well, their view of the world in

00:14:24

which, in principle, there was no place for

00:14:26

democracy, so the EU is about this,

00:14:29

what kind of people will be there, everything will again

00:14:32

have the same outcome, that is, the problem is

00:14:34

not personal in nature And once again,

00:14:37

no one has ever been ideological in Russia did

00:14:40

not seriously try to build democracy, not only

00:14:42

that there were people there

00:14:44

who sabotaged this process, but the

00:14:47

ideology was built on the fact that this is

00:14:50

unimportant, that this is not what needs to be done,

00:14:52

that all democracy should be

00:14:54

reduced to elections, that the main thing is the

00:14:57

market, competition and everything that led to the

00:15:01

modern the structure of Russian

00:15:02

society with monstrous inequality and with a

00:15:05

thin layer of Elite who, in principle,

00:15:07

can afford to do whatever

00:15:09

they want. How did this ideology

00:15:11

create ressentiment?

00:15:15

These dialogues generate ressentiment simply

00:15:17

by their own design; see

00:15:22

if, at the level of common sense, people

00:15:25

are told the same thing all the time And

00:15:27

in fact, the main message of the early

00:15:30

nineties was that everyone

00:15:31

survives on their own, which for 7 years

00:15:35

means we endured some kind of ineffective

00:15:38

system that supported

00:15:39

ineffective forms. Why Because

00:15:41

in general the world is structured

00:15:43

as an environment in which the

00:15:47

fittest survive, so we need to finally free

00:15:50

this environment and let the strongest survive in peace

00:15:53

and all the weaklings should just

00:15:55

die and all this, in general, is a

00:15:59

direct message that accompanied the

00:16:02

reforms of the early nineties and

00:16:06

which was not only broadcast

00:16:08

publicly but also reinforced in public

00:16:10

institutions what does this lead to, this

00:16:13

leads to the fact that well, just like you and me

00:16:15

what they said Russian

00:16:17

learns quickly and adapts quickly and this

00:16:20

lesson was learned quite quickly, it was

00:16:23

he who was involved in the formation of

00:16:27

such a

00:16:29

cynical and in general with elements of

00:16:33

human

00:16:34

hatred subject who always

00:16:36

defends himself by the fact that well, I know what

00:16:38

my interest is and everyone else doesn’t

00:16:40

interest me this is the only way

00:16:41

to survive in this world, common sense in

00:16:45

Russia very quickly turned out to be a

00:16:47

distorted sense around us,

00:16:50

some openly

00:16:53

man-haters began to speak. We can

00:16:54

see this, I know from

00:16:57

some

00:17:00

raps of their successful lives after about the same thing

00:17:04

all the time Thinking about yourself

00:17:07

you need to use the suckers around you and this is the

00:17:12

very lesson that was learned

00:17:14

further. The inevitable consequence of this

00:17:17

is the aggressive competition that

00:17:18

arises in society, the rupture of any

00:17:20

Solidarity and the fact

00:17:27

that every society in it begins

00:17:30

to win the most

00:17:31

unprincipled ones who really

00:17:33

seriously master this science with nothing not to

00:17:36

be taken into account, this is what happened in the

00:17:39

nineties, it was consolidated later in the

00:17:42

2000s, I’ll emphasize that I think

00:17:44

that in the nineties, at least it

00:17:46

was Well, as if there were alternatives Yes, there

00:17:49

were different options And the situation

00:17:51

was not so clear, yes, and then in the

00:17:53

next 20 years Everything, of course,

00:17:55

is fixed when you create a Society in

00:17:58

which

00:17:59

[music]

00:18:00

triumphs the most unprincipled, then

00:18:03

everyone else naturally begins

00:18:04

to feel offended because status

00:18:08

in Russia is not based on anything, what is the

00:18:11

wealth of the Russian oligarchs based on

00:18:13

is that some very smart people They are

00:18:17

something- they are doing something very important and good for the

00:18:19

country. No, everyone knows that this is simply the

00:18:21

most

00:18:27

impudent thing when fabulous wealth and

00:18:30

inequality are not justified by anything, people

00:18:32

begin to feel resentment multiplied

00:18:35

by anger, and this, in fact, gives rise to

00:18:38

ressentiment.

00:18:40

Therefore, yes, this ressentiment then

00:18:42

calmly spills over into foreign

00:18:44

policy Because if your picture

00:18:46

of the world is such that the world is a war of everyone

00:18:48

against everyone, then you begin to

00:18:50

look at international relations in exactly this way. That is why

00:18:52

Vladimir Putin

00:18:54

quite easily imposed his Well, this kind of state

00:18:57

picture in which everyone is

00:19:02

at war with everyone, to impose on many people in Russia

00:19:06

to impose constant paranoia in relation to

00:19:09

others both within the country and its

00:19:11

international environment; these

00:19:13

things are connected with each other; if Vladimir Putin

00:19:17

is a supporter of a market economy, then how do you

00:19:19

determine the nature of his current

00:19:21

power? It is imperial; it is a usurper

00:19:24

or even an announcer because

00:19:26

I am democratic for sure. I can’t call

00:19:29

it monarchy, there is such a very simple term

00:19:33

in political theory, it means

00:19:35

the power of one; absolute monarchy is the

00:19:37

absolute power of one. Sometimes, for some

00:19:42

reason, when we think about monarchy, we

00:19:44

immediately imagine dynastic

00:19:46

inheritance; this is absolutely not always the case;

00:19:49

there have been many cases of elective elections in history.

00:19:52

monarchies and starting from the middle of

00:19:56

the century, the monarchy began to be combined with

00:20:00

universal suffrage, that is,

00:20:03

systems began to emerge, but this first

00:20:05

appeared in France where the Monarch holds

00:20:08

regular plebiscites that make him a

00:20:10

monarch in the name of the people and regularly

00:20:14

renew this legitimacy. Therefore, there is

00:20:16

nothing particularly strange and

00:20:20

surprising about this Monarch not at all

00:20:21

obligatory person in the Monomakh cap

00:20:24

who transfers power by inheritance

00:20:25

no Monarch is the one who has

00:20:27

absolute power If you look

00:20:29

at, say, the Russian Constitution of

00:20:32

2020, you can do a simple

00:20:35

exercise, try to find in this

00:20:37

Constitution some action

00:20:39

that Vladimir Putin cannot

00:20:41

perform Yes, which is forbidden to do

00:20:44

under this Constitution, you are not allowed to do anything of this kind,

00:20:45

this is

00:20:48

absolute power, absolute power, this is

00:20:50

simply in strictly theoretical terms,

00:20:52

this is an absolute monarchy. Therefore, yes,

00:20:53

Russia is an absolute monarchy,

00:20:57

on the basis of the monarchical worldview

00:20:59

of the Kremlin and the monarchy of Vladimir Putin,

00:21:01

as far as they are characteristic

00:21:06

society Well,

00:21:08

in singing, when we talk about a

00:21:11

characteristic society, then we begin,

00:21:14

willy-nilly, a little bit, as if to look for

00:21:17

some kind of essence in society, but

00:21:20

Russia is a complex country with a complex

00:21:22

history and in Russia there are a lot of different

00:21:27

tendencies. But predispositions and so

00:21:30

on, the only question is that What are you talking about?

00:21:33

Is there a tradition of tsarism in Russia? There is

00:21:37

no need to deny it. Yes, in Russia

00:21:41

for a long time there was Tsarist

00:21:44

power and this exists in Russian cultural patterns,

00:21:48

as we understand it. Russia is

00:21:50

the only country where

00:21:54

the monarchy was strong. Yes, it

00:21:57

exists. Is it in ours? culture is different Well,

00:21:59

of course, in our culture there is the experience of

00:22:04

strong republics, there is the experience of constant

00:22:07

revolutionary movements, there is, as we have

00:22:10

already said, anarchist experience, that

00:22:12

is, there is a lot of everything that we

00:22:13

could rely on simply in what we

00:22:15

choose. Therefore, there is no need to ignore

00:22:18

this part our culture and there is no need to

00:22:21

absolutize it Yes, there is a lot of

00:22:24

other things Well, that is, conditionally, the point

00:22:27

where the nation and the state intersect is,

00:22:30

on the one hand, the market reforms of the early

00:22:33

nineties and the absolute monarchical

00:22:36

power of Vladimir Putin, and on the other

00:22:37

hand, the resentment that exists in

00:22:40

society, that is here is partly some kind of

00:22:42

monarchical, maybe also

00:22:44

monarchical Heritage is the point where

00:22:46

they intersect Well about the nation I haven’t

00:22:49

said anything yet, you

00:22:51

used the word

00:22:55

Empire correctly, and what we see right now is

00:22:57

horse realistic

00:23:00

aggression formulated or

00:23:03

based

00:23:04

on the fact that Vladimir Putin made a firm

00:23:08

choice in favor of the fact that Russia is an

00:23:10

empire, this means several things at once,

00:23:13

but this means, in particular, that

00:23:15

Russia has no borders and Putin has

00:23:18

already spoken about this several times. Moreover, as I

00:23:20

understand it, it is now becoming one of the

00:23:22

slogans of the next plebiscite in Teri in

00:23:26

general, there are no borders

00:23:28

The Empire would be located where it managed to

00:23:30

reach other places, it just didn’t have

00:23:32

time to reach yet It’s not

00:23:34

like it doesn’t belong to it, it’s

00:23:36

not ours yet, we’ll get there, it will be

00:23:39

ours, and on the other hand, in internal

00:23:43

terms it’s it just means the

00:23:45

absence, in a sense, of a nation; this,

00:23:48

in general, is the absence of an answer to the question of

00:23:50

what unites us all; we are

00:23:53

united by nothing except expansion and

00:23:56

the figure of the monarch who continues this expansion.

00:23:59

This allows us, as it were, not to

00:24:02

ask difficult questions about what

00:24:05

holds us together and allows in general, Well,

00:24:10

for the time being, at least

00:24:11

push the issue of cohabitation under the rug,

00:24:15

for example, on

00:24:17

this territory. Therefore, so far what

00:24:20

we see is, well, such an imperial

00:24:23

hysteria, this is that Horse attempt to revive

00:24:27

the Empire, but with the Empire, what a thing

00:24:30

the Empire is after all can expand as

00:24:34

long as it has some kind of

00:24:36

justified hegemony, hegemony

00:24:39

involves the proposal of some kind of

00:24:41

vital project of space, for example,

00:24:43

into which it is expanding, which

00:24:45

makes being in this

00:24:48

empire

00:24:50

attractive for these territories,

00:24:52

and Russia today

00:24:54

does not have such a project; any expanding The empire must

00:24:57

that besides military force, yes it is true that it

00:24:59

should not have military force and that

00:25:01

it does a lot with the help of military force, but

00:25:03

military force is implemented by someone who

00:25:05

proposes some kind of civilizational

00:25:07

project. Russia today does not offer

00:25:08

its neighbors anything actually. That is

00:25:10

why Russia's neighbors are mostly afraid of it, well,

00:25:14

at least they are afraid

00:25:16

and, frankly speaking, they are starting to

00:25:20

hate you, you commented in sufficient detail on the

00:25:22

experiment for the jellyfish, yes, una

00:25:25

fat Ryan, I will remind you. They

00:25:29

conducted an experiment in the first year and

00:25:32

revealed the fact that Russian society

00:25:35

showed as if it had an

00:25:37

essence Well, that is, I am now again

00:25:40

addressing your recent words that it is

00:25:42

pointless to try to grope for the essence in it,

00:25:43

but nevertheless, their experiment

00:25:46

showed that Russian society, one way or

00:25:48

another, was already quite

00:25:53

militarized. Look at the results of

00:25:55

this experiment, maybe after

00:25:58

considering it for jellyfish do you

00:26:00

have any additional

00:26:01

confirmation of your words, your hypotheses

00:26:04

or, on the contrary, some contradictory

00:26:10

information regarding the results of this experiment? No, the conclusion of this

00:26:13

experiment seems to me to be exactly

00:26:15

the opposite, and the conclusion is that

00:26:18

if the form if you address people

00:26:22

in language propaganda, then they

00:26:24

accordingly do not answer you in the

00:26:25

language that suggests Propaganda

00:26:28

is such a big Mystery that is not for

00:26:32

those who are engaged in

00:26:34

research methodology in general, in fact, secretly

00:26:36

is not how you ask and answer

00:26:38

what language you offer the respondent in the

00:26:40

question such a language he tells you and will give an

00:26:42

answer Why Because this kind of

00:26:46

question does not actually involve

00:26:47

measurement, you know,

00:26:48

some kind of installation deeply ingrained in our

00:26:52

heads:

00:26:53

I support the war or

00:26:55

I support the war, uh, for the vast

00:26:59

majority of people, especially in

00:27:00

depolymerization,

00:27:27

the most in-depth researchers in this

00:27:29

field, it’s like a model of, you know, a

00:27:34

desktop with drawers, when we

00:27:37

are sitting at our desk and we receive

00:27:38

some kind of request, we start looking in the drawers for

00:27:40

something that can quickly

00:27:42

allow us to answer this question, and someone

00:27:43

comes to us and asks us something

00:27:46

and instead of loading

00:27:48

some kind of program into ourselves and asking ourselves this is

00:27:49

how I really feel there or how

00:27:52

I support I do not support, instead

00:27:54

we react quickly in such a way

00:27:56

that we are looking for something that allows us to

00:27:58

react adequately and competently to

00:28:00

this question something In our experience E that

00:28:03

corresponds to the question asked e and

00:28:07

e this experiment actually exactly

00:28:09

this seems good to me E good and

00:28:12

shows E that as soon as you

00:28:15

ask people in the same language and there are

00:28:17

actually vignettes that were offered

00:28:19

in this experiment they were

00:28:20

formulated in the language of Russian

00:28:24

propaganda, then people react

00:28:25

accordingly, and if

00:28:27

you ask them in another language, they will

00:28:29

react differently. That is why, for

00:28:31

example, many queries that

00:28:33

FBK conducts give different results. Not

00:28:37

because there is some mysterious

00:28:40

methodology, but because simply VBK does not

00:28:42

communicate with people in the language of Putin’s

00:28:44

propaganda, that’s all. Well, obviously that’s why the

00:28:47

head of our sociological service, Anna

00:28:49

Berkova, was arrested in absentia for calls for

00:28:52

terrorism, approval of terrorism,

00:28:54

extremism. In general, that’s all here,

00:28:56

but what’s the matter with Russian

00:28:59

society? Well, Russians in general, no one cares

00:29:01

what hasn’t been asked for quite a long

00:29:03

time, I don’t mean sociologists now.

00:29:06

I mean the Russian government, it doesn’t

00:29:08

ask society

00:29:10

whether it is ready to approve of the war, whether it is ready for

00:29:13

Putin to direct forever, that is,

00:29:15

in principle, such questions are not worth it.

00:29:17

Well, The war has been going on for almost 2 years, Putin is going

00:29:22

to his plebiscite according to his

00:29:26

reassignment, the

00:29:28

number of people is some significant

00:29:31

percentage or a very loud

00:29:32

percentage that approves of both.

00:29:34

Why is it like this

00:29:36

again? What does it mean to approve if by

00:29:39

approves we mean some kind of

00:29:41

reaction that demands

00:29:46

Yes Well, I don’t know, you work in a budget

00:29:50

institution, they tell you that sometime

00:29:53

in March there will be some procedure

00:29:54

called elections and goth Listen, if you’re in trouble,

00:29:56

please go and

00:30:00

vote there, especially now it’s

00:30:01

very easy to do, you don’t have to go anywhere at all, you

00:30:03

just can

00:30:04

register and it means spending 5

00:30:06

minutes to leave your vote on the site, it’s like they

00:30:09

call it approve, I don’t

00:30:12

really know why it should be called that, it’s a

00:30:15

certain procedure that is a

00:30:17

condition for continuing

00:30:18

to work in this budgetary institution without

00:30:21

having any special problems if you don’t

00:30:24

say it, it doesn’t sing there are

00:30:27

such naive people in Russia No, well, you

00:30:30

will get a certain amount of problems,

00:30:31

maybe your bosses will get a certain

00:30:32

amount of problems, there will be

00:30:35

more problems around you. Well, this is roughly

00:30:37

how the

00:30:39

rationality of the average Russian

00:30:42

citizen works, and in general this is a completely

00:30:43

pragmatic approach. I don’t know why to

00:30:45

call it odor

00:30:47

reformulate

00:30:49

Well, at least the politicians who are

00:30:52

promoting over and over again more and more

00:30:54

cannibalistic laws And the Russians are representatives of

00:30:57

Russian society who write

00:30:59

hundreds and thousands of denunciations at least in the

00:31:01

twenty-second year A and in the twenty-

00:31:04

third we observed This is literally

00:31:06

every day every day we see that a

00:31:09

verdict is being passed and against the person

00:31:11

who came out with a poster or changed

00:31:14

the price tags and political prisoners there are

00:31:16

more and more people who

00:31:18

are actors in all these actions,

00:31:21

they

00:31:22

have adapted or they

00:31:25

share Irina Let’s be very

00:31:28

careful and separate two things here So

00:31:29

that we don’t mix up

00:31:31

some a terrible mess, it means one thing

00:31:34

is the people who pass

00:31:36

sentences. Well, in the Russian judicial

00:31:39

system there is a certain percentage. By the way, it’s

00:31:41

not very large, as fellow

00:31:43

judges say who just sit there

00:31:45

to pass down these missed

00:31:47

sentences. Well, they seem to have such a

00:31:49

career trajectory. Well, there is

00:31:51

some kind of I don’t know group of Well,

00:31:53

let’s say several hundred judges Yes,

00:31:56

who don’t bother with this means that

00:31:58

as for informers, a large

00:32:01

number of denunciations are written by a very small

00:32:02

number of people, moreover, as shown,

00:32:06

as shown by recent conversations with

00:32:10

these people. In general, we are even approximately

00:32:11

we know who they are. This is just the

00:32:14

number of people who constantly

00:32:16

do this. Just against the backdrop of quite

00:32:19

powerful pressure in this direction on

00:32:21

society, some sort of epidemic of

00:32:23

denunciations. We generally don’t

00:32:26

see,

00:32:29

we see some isolated cases, but

00:32:32

when people do it either out of fear

00:32:35

which in itself is very bad, and that Luda

00:32:36

can be brought to such a fright,

00:32:39

either by considering it as some kind of

00:32:41

career duty. Well, this is

00:32:45

what we are

00:32:47

seeing, all this is happening against the backdrop of

00:32:49

naturally public passivity

00:32:50

because no one assumes that

00:32:51

the situation can be change, but this is not

00:32:55

some kind of Synergy between

00:32:58

those who are organizing a repression campaign and

00:33:01

joyfully and amicably vpm in this in this

00:33:05

society Yes, no, we see

00:33:08

rather, well, a kind of prostrate

00:33:11

society over which people who are

00:33:15

usurping are

00:33:16

simply trying to mock As they

00:33:21

want after the beginning of the Russian

00:33:23

invasions in 202 happened to Ekaterina

00:33:27

Gordeeva and in my memory Well,

00:33:29

correct me if I’m wrong, you were one

00:33:32

of the first public speakers who

00:33:35

directly said that this is a tragedy for

00:33:36

both peoples, Ukrainian and

00:33:38

Russian, because it seems to me that before

00:33:40

that, basically, maybe it’s my

00:33:42

bubble and its features are mainly about the

00:33:44

fact that this tragedy for the Russian

00:33:46

people for many years and decades,

00:33:48

in my opinion, no one has spoken so publicly

00:33:50

in your opinion over the last 2 years,

00:33:53

how the attitude of Russians in

00:33:57

Russian society to

00:33:59

issues of guilt and responsibility has changed And what in the

00:34:03

future a long war can

00:34:06

mean How it can affect

00:34:08

Russian

00:34:09

society Well, I am a citizen of Russia. Therefore,

00:34:13

I am primarily interested in the fate of

00:34:16

Russia, naturally, and what is happening

00:34:19

is, of course, a monstrous catastrophe from the

00:34:21

point of view of our strategic

00:34:23

prospects, there are no good ways out of it

00:34:29

now, but there can be ways out to be found

00:34:32

only at the moment when they actually are

00:34:34

Well, we will start looking for them together

00:34:37

yes To do this we will have to admit that we

00:34:40

are at a dead end today this dead end

00:34:43

can actually continue for some more,

00:34:44

that is, we can stand in this dead end for

00:34:46

some time and moreover Well

00:34:50

what - there’s just a collapse around when there, I don’t

00:34:52

know, the building will collapse or there,

00:34:56

I don’t know the product, I may not serve for a while,

00:35:00

but if we look not from the perspective

00:35:03

There, but if we look at some kind of

00:35:05

historical perspective and think about the

00:35:08

responsibility for our country about the

00:35:10

fact that there, what we are leaving to the next

00:35:11

generation is of course a catastrophe, but

00:35:14

once again, in order to move on

00:35:16

to finding a way out of this catastrophe, we must

00:35:19

first admit that this is a dead end with this

00:35:21

for now, to the

00:35:25

existing situation, once again, a

00:35:29

pragmatic natural strategy of the foot is

00:35:31

not about all this think somehow

00:35:33

it will be resolved Putin will

00:35:35

come up with something God won’t give it away the pig won’t eat it

00:35:39

And this is, well, this is the short-term logic

00:35:42

that so far

00:35:43

allows us to exist in this sense. I

00:35:46

don’t think that anything

00:35:48

has changed radically and all this talk about guilt

00:35:51

and responsibility is not very adequate to the

00:35:53

current Russian situation,

00:35:55

you see, in order to take

00:35:57

responsibility for something,

00:35:59

or even more so to feel guilty for

00:36:01

something, you first need to

00:36:03

feel like a subject in this

00:36:05

situation. Well, it’s like you’re responsible not

00:36:08

only for your own personal I don’t

00:36:10

know the trajectory there and maybe it will be there for the

00:36:13

good of my children and for something else.

00:36:14

This idea is generally inadequate and does not

00:36:18

correspond to the state of affairs in today’s

00:36:21

Russia. Therefore, this conversation about

00:36:24

responsibility can

00:36:25

only begin when

00:36:27

there is a law there, and

00:36:29

the war is over, the

00:36:32

subjectivity of I appears. I think that in general things are

00:36:35

more likely to be the case for now. So things

00:36:37

will look the other way around because until

00:36:39

Vladimir Putin in power the war

00:36:42

ends, some kind of

00:36:44

subjectivity will be required to do something about this

00:36:46

situation. But to

00:36:48

somehow change it is of course

00:36:50

possible there some processes as a

00:36:53

result of which the

00:36:54

establishment of this subjectivity pushed but without

00:36:57

stopping it without us

00:36:59

somehow taking upon ourselves Well, really,

00:37:01

as you correctly say, some kind of

00:37:02

collective responsibility for our

00:37:03

own country, then this is an important

00:37:05

point for actually actually

00:37:07

Before I use it exactly in this sense

00:37:08

yes yes yes yes I just I

00:37:11

just specifically emphasize this yes it’s

00:37:13

not not first of all not a

00:37:16

responsibility to others but to

00:37:18

yourself if you start

00:37:20

to answer to yourself yes after that you can

00:37:21

say you know, as if I was

00:37:23

wrong here, let’s figure it out here, I

00:37:26

hope that this moment will come and of course at

00:37:29

this moment it will be obvious that the heads

00:37:32

of responsibility are to

00:37:34

themselves, that there is responsibility for

00:37:37

some crazy decisions that

00:37:39

one person made, by and large,

00:37:41

should he bears it himself and we must bear

00:37:44

responsibility to ourselves that

00:37:47

we are somehow a situation in which

00:37:51

one does

00:37:55

not return this to our

00:37:58

prostrate

00:38:00

subjectivity in your

00:38:02

opinion no of course, but this is, well, it’s like a

00:38:07

signal in this

00:38:10

direction you see I somehow too Apparently

00:38:12

this is how

00:38:25

Russia expresses itself very big, we

00:38:28

saw it in the first year when Alexey,

00:38:30

whom we were talking about, returned to the country and

00:38:33

in the country there were, well, record-breaking in scale

00:38:35

and in geography, by the way, also

00:38:37

a protest and we actually see this in

00:38:41

everything since the beginning of the war that in

00:38:44

Russia there are a huge number of people. Well, that is,

00:38:48

probably millions or maybe

00:38:49

tens of millions of people who are

00:38:52

looking for an opportunity for some kind of

00:38:53

collective action simply sit down,

00:38:57

so even when such a

00:38:59

minimal opportunity appears. Moreover, it is also

00:39:02

legal in these conditions, of course

00:39:05

people immediately begin

00:39:06

to look for some kind of minimal outlet for

00:39:10

this accumulated potential,

00:39:13

without even particularly pinning great hopes on it,

00:39:15

so history with these queues

00:39:18

just seems to me to show me and I

00:39:21

think to all

00:39:23

observers the

00:39:25

potential for collective action. As

00:39:27

soon as the opportunity for it is

00:39:28

open, we are very We are likely to see

00:39:31

how people pour into

00:39:33

politics. If we talk about the protests of

00:39:35

recent times, we literally

00:39:37

watched protests in Bashkortostan for 2 weeks in a row,

00:39:38

then protests in Yakutsk, and

00:39:42

among other things, the wives of those mobilized

00:39:44

every week, every Saturday, go to the

00:39:46

Ministry of Defense and other buildings in Moscow and

00:39:49

try to hold their pickets Well, as

00:39:52

you already said, there is a queue of hopes for this. This is an

00:39:55

example of collective action.

00:39:57

Based on this, which protests have more

00:40:00

protest potential, those

00:40:02

on the national stage or those

00:40:04

on the

00:40:05

political stage with protest potential? In

00:40:08

this case, I understand the readiness of people to

00:40:10

fundamentally participate in political

00:40:13

life

00:40:16

means that with regard to these episodes

00:40:18

that you say,

00:40:25

if there are no short-term prospects, I don’t

00:40:27

see any problems for the Kremlin

00:40:30

in any of these phenomena that you

00:40:33

described, but at the same time, of course,

00:40:37

well, you can see that

00:40:41

some trends are getting worse

00:40:45

which may play out in the future Yes, but

00:40:48

if we are talking about regional

00:40:50

protests there, then of course in Russia

00:40:53

real federalization is overdue and overripe there in

00:40:56

Moscow. Everyone hates everyone, everyone thinks what

00:40:59

federal officials are doing is tyranny,

00:41:02

for now it’s just a request

00:41:04

for, well, more independence,

00:41:08

control over one’s own land Of course,

00:41:10

if it is restrained

00:41:12

and suppressed for some time, it will turn into real

00:41:14

separatism in conditions when the Imperial

00:41:16

project collapses, this will be especially

00:41:18

dangerous because at this moment the

00:41:20

greatest Temptation will appear for some of the

00:41:23

people who live in Russia to

00:41:25

say, Listen, and we, in general, are like us

00:41:27

no one asked If you remember, you

00:41:30

also once conquered us, they also didn’t

00:41:32

ask us and You know, somehow you went here, you

00:41:35

sort it all out yourself, these

00:41:37

moods will certainly appear, they

00:41:40

are not yet dominant in any form, but to

00:41:42

some extent

00:41:43

serious in Russia, but in the conditions of

00:41:46

large centrifugal forces there, they can

00:41:48

begin to play in this sense, of course

00:41:50

Putin is tightening the screws which will then

00:41:53

fall apart

00:41:54

consequences question

00:41:57

six months ago Grigory Borisovich writes

00:41:59

our viewer said that all the options for

00:42:01

the development of events that he sees are bad,

00:42:03

this has not

00:42:05

changed

00:42:06

No from the point of view there, from the point of view of

00:42:10

Russia, I see I don’t see any good

00:42:13

options, another thing is that then again there are

00:42:16

options in which

00:42:18

we still take the country into our own hands and

00:42:21

cope with these difficulties, we

00:42:23

can

00:42:25

cope with them,

00:42:26

there are things that Well, give

00:42:30

reason to see Well there possibility

00:42:34

It is possible to cope with this, there are

00:42:36

prerequisites for this, yes, after all, in

00:42:40

Russia Well, it’s more of a gerontocracy Elite

00:42:43

Yes, to make it clear, I don’t mean

00:42:45

strictly age. I mean some kind of

00:42:49

deep moral obsolescence, that is, there are large young

00:42:52

layers who are in in general, they were ripe a

00:42:55

long time ago in order to take the country

00:42:57

into their own hands. The country has Well, we are

00:43:01

not talking about what is obvious in the case

00:43:03

of Russia, that there is a very large human

00:43:05

potential, but there are also a number of prerequisites

00:43:09

for

00:43:14

quickly building some kind of economic

00:43:17

growth for everyone, yes, there are some

00:43:20

working institutions, there are some

00:43:22

fairly obvious opportunities, like

00:43:24

infrastructure reforms that

00:43:26

will make the country more connected. Just within

00:43:29

itself. So that all issues are not resolved

00:43:30

through Moscow. Of course, that is what

00:43:34

makes Russia an important player today in the

00:43:37

global world and these are not

00:43:40

crazy attempts to defeat Eastern

00:43:42

Europe. But the resources that Russia has

00:43:45

to say a weighty word in

00:43:47

solving global problems. Well, for example,

00:43:49

there are problems with the energy transition. Yes, I

00:43:52

mean there are Russian

00:43:55

Zen resources.

00:43:58

All this gives some prerequisites

00:44:01

for You can

00:44:04

somehow get out of this tailspin, it will be hard, that is, you don’t

00:44:07

need to think that everything will somehow

00:44:10

get better on its own, it

00:44:13

will be hard, but this is at least

00:44:15

a scenario in which

00:44:16

we take our country into our hands and begin to

00:44:19

take responsibility for it if this does not happen Well, that

00:44:22

means there will be bad scenarios, but I

00:44:24

understand correctly that the scenario

00:44:26

that you just described is the best of the

00:44:28

conditional

00:44:30

bad ones. Yes,

00:44:32

well, these are like scenarios in the end with a good

00:44:34

ending because we are still starting to

00:44:36

ultimately rule our own

00:44:37

country through difficulties through a

00:44:42

painful transformation there, especially

00:44:44

once again considering that the world today is going

00:44:46

through a difficult transformation, but we

00:44:48

find our place in it, this place

00:44:50

must be worthy, Russia certainly

00:44:53

should and can be a player in solving

00:44:57

global problems, but we will go

00:44:59

through some difficult period, eventually

00:45:03

having received having received our own country,

00:45:06

this can be considered such a difficult

00:45:09

epic with a successful outcome. Well, in

00:45:13

general, of course, the acquisition of the acquisition of

00:45:16

subjectivity is what we

00:45:18

ultimately deserve, I think, I would like,

00:45:20

of course, to gain it earlier, but it is possible

00:45:23

In order to to find, we need to go through

00:45:25

exactly the path that we are now

00:45:27

going through Gregory Thank you very much, you are

00:45:28

not a frequent guest with us, but one way or another I

00:45:31

hope that next time you will

00:45:34

accept our offer again and

00:45:36

agree to go on air with us, just like

00:45:38

today on our Sociologist

00:45:40

Grigory Yudin was in touch Thank you for the invitation

00:45:42

Thank you I was still in touch on the air My

00:45:46

name is Rina alman You were those who

00:45:48

watched us online and you will be those

00:45:50

who watch us in the recordings and those you

00:45:54

who watch online and those you

00:45:56

who Watch the recordings like

00:45:58

this broadcast, it only gets

00:45:59

better; more viewers see it; write

00:46:02

comments; support us in the

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ways that are convenient for you; in particular,

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we have a patreon; in order to start

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supporting us there, just

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point the camera of your smartphone at the QR

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code that you see at the bottom of the screen;

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go to select the site Honestly,

00:46:19

and after you become a patron you will

00:46:21

see your name, your nickname, any

00:46:23

information that you provide about yourself to

00:46:26

the line, it runs here in the mornings and

00:46:28

evenings. And of course, become a

00:46:30

sponsor of the channel popular politics,

00:46:32

if, again, this is available to you,

00:46:35

appropriate and safe or give this

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sponsorship, this is an option that is

00:46:39

available to our viewers abroad

00:46:42

within Russia. Unfortunately, it is not

00:46:44

available, but you can receive it as a gift.

00:46:46

And to receive it as a gift, you need to

00:46:48

make a beautiful, impeccable I would

00:46:50

say logical chain and there is

00:46:53

another way to support us these are

00:46:56

gifs. For example, Denis Stukalov

00:46:58

sent a gif for 20 euros,

00:47:00

which I think will decorate our broadcast

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if our director brings it out perfectly. And

00:47:06

if he doesn’t show it, then you just know that it

00:47:09

was there. I say goodbye to you until the next

00:47:11

broadcast. Stay popular politics.

00:47:13

There will be a lot more

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interesting things today. one Boyka What is it worth in

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general it can’t be missed yet

Description:

В гостях «Честного слова» — социолог и философ Григорий Юдин. Как всегда, обсуждаем главные новости последних дней. Задавайте свои вопросы в чате! Гость: Григорий Юдин https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser Ведущая: Ирина Аллеман https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser ⚡️ Кампания ФБК против Путина-2024: https://neputin.org/ ❗️Этот бот поможет переубедить тех, кто верит Владимиру Путину. Присоединяйтесь! https://t.me/neputin_bot Слушайте нас в формате подкастов: https://band.link/PopularPolitics Покупайте мерч Команды Навального: https://navalny.shop/ Важные ссылки: ❗️ Сайт кампании «Свободу Навальному» (из России через VPN): https://free.navalny.com/ 🔹 Бот «Напиши политзеку»: https://t.me/politzekam_bot 🔹 Штабы Навального. Защищенная платформа для активистов в России: https://shtab.navalny.com/ 🔹 Наш проект «Цены сегодня». Смотрите, как менялась стоимость товаров после начала войны: https://pricing.day/ 🔹 Бот команды Навального: https://t.me/teamnavalny_bot Поддержите нашу работу! 🔸 Наш Patreon, где вы можете поддержать любимую передачу: https://www.patreon.com/Popularpolitics 🔸 Станьте спонсором канала, и вы получите доступ к эксклюзивным бонусам. Подробнее: https://www.youtube.com/c/Popularpolitics/join 🔸 Поддержать штабы Навального: https://www.patreon.com/shtab_navalny 🔸 Поддержите работу ФБК: https://donate.acf.international/ru Подпишитесь: ➖ Телеграм: t.me/politica_media ➖ Инстаграм: https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser ➖ Твиттер: https://twitter.com/politica_media ➖ Помощь юристов и ответы на главные вопросы о мобилизации. Наш телеграм-канал: https://t.me/mobilizationnews ➖ Новости без цензуры: телеграм-канал «Сирена» https://t.me/news_sirena Таймкоды 00:00 Начало 00:50 Григория внесли в список иноагентов 04:12 Поддерживают ли россияне войну? 06:37 Россияне привыкли к войне? 09:46 Про демократию в России 15:10 Как путинская идеология породила ресентимент? 19:16 Какая политическая система в России? 25:22 Насколько военизировано российское общество? 28:47 Почему часть россиян одобряет войну? 33:22 Как поменялось отношение россиян к вопросам вины и ответственности? 37:55 Про Бориса Надеждина 39:35 У каких протестов большой потенциал? 41:55 Есть ли положительный вариант развития событий в России?

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