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Channel: Цифровая история

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Гражданская война на Урале . Часть 2. Алексей Гончаров.

Channel: КРАСНОЕ ТВ

История

история ссср

история россии

ссср

российская империя

советский союз

спицын

колпакиди

яковлев

пыхалов

артамонов

мпгу

синелобов

сталин

ленин

маркс

коммунизм

большевики

красный проект

германартамонов

юрийгагарин

денькосмонавтики

00:00:00

Hello dear viewers, you are watching the

00:00:02

channel red project at the microphone Ivan

00:00:04

Kotov and for starters I want to

00:00:06

recommend you the amazing book by

00:00:08

Yevgeny Spitsyn on the fronts of the Cold

00:00:10

War which you can purchase via the

00:00:12

link in the description today The topic of our

00:00:15

video will be the

00:00:17

Space program of the Soviet Union And in

00:00:19

general Our video is dedicated to On April 12, for

00:00:22

Cosmonautics Day, we have historian

00:00:25

German Anatolyevich Artamonov.

00:00:27

Hello, good German Anatolyevich, and

00:00:30

I would like to start with the question of how you

00:00:33

consider the role of Yuri Gagarin in the

00:00:36

history of all mankind in general. A

00:00:39

good question

00:00:41

that makes us talk about a lot about

00:00:47

many

00:00:48

fundamental issues, I would say

00:00:50

the history of the 20th century and assessments of the Soviet

00:00:55

heritage

00:00:56

to talk The

00:00:58

fact is that it is obvious that Gagarin

00:01:06

had not only

00:01:08

enormous

00:01:10

popularity in the Soviet Union, but

00:01:15

he was

00:01:16

received by the whole world, he traveled

00:01:19

almost half the world and, perhaps, in this

00:01:22

regard, it is difficult to imagine any

00:01:25

other historical figure if we

00:01:28

set such a task such a

00:01:33

problem let's say which of the

00:01:36

great figures in any field is worthy of

00:01:41

such a title as a man of the world, as a son of

00:01:43

the planet Earth, a son of humanity, not just

00:01:46

individual countries, but of all humanity, and

00:01:50

in this sense, it seems to me that it is obvious

00:01:53

that no one can lay claim

00:01:56

to this title of son of the planet with much justification

00:01:59

Earth than Yuri Alekseevich

00:02:01

Gagarin precisely due to the fact that this is how his

00:02:06

contemporaries generally treated him, because it was not only an

00:02:08

obvious Victory, a Victory of the Soviet system,

00:02:11

it was perceived as a Victory of

00:02:13

humanity as a very significant

00:02:16

event, in the end, this is what

00:02:18

consolidates, well, the people of Gagarin Two

00:02:22

such public historical aspects

00:02:25

on the one hand This is the final

00:02:27

triumph of man over nature and the Victory of

00:02:31

science

00:02:32

and science This is a product that is certainly

00:02:35

public,

00:02:37

universally socially significant and

00:02:40

this is the achievement of science as consolidating the

00:02:45

final liberation of man from

00:02:49

his dependence on the natural

00:02:51

environment and the second

00:02:54

no less optimistic meaning of

00:02:58

Gagarin’s flight is oh, this is an instillation of

00:03:01

optimism, limitless possibilities and

00:03:04

our civilization in general, human

00:03:07

civilization and the

00:03:10

achievements of science. That is, all directions of

00:03:15

development are open, people can set the

00:03:18

most incredible, the most outstanding,

00:03:20

it seemed like just yesterday, science fiction and tasks and

00:03:26

achieve

00:03:28

their implementation by the way,

00:03:31

Gagarin’s flight is the

00:03:32

first year still alive people are still alive

00:03:35

generations who read

00:03:38

science fiction books about the

00:03:41

first human flight into space,

00:03:44

widely circulated everywhere. By the way, in all

00:03:46

languages of the world. There, Herbert was not only

00:03:49

for whom this science fiction suddenly

00:03:53

became a reality, what else can more

00:03:57

clearly demonstrate the triumph of

00:04:00

this civilization and human capabilities

00:04:03

fundamental sciences and so on And that’s why

00:04:06

the optimism with which he was greeted

00:04:10

as a victory, emphasizing all of

00:04:11

humanity, is, in general, quite

00:04:13

understandable, and if you look at

00:04:16

documentary footage of the chronicle when

00:04:19

Gagarin was greeted by Great Britain in

00:04:21

France, the

00:04:22

political whole world, but this

00:04:26

sincere, completely Ovation is literally in

00:04:30

every country when life on

00:04:33

the streets froze and everyone came out to meet him.

00:04:36

This is probably unprecedented in world

00:04:39

history, the popularity of

00:04:41

one person all over the world, and in this

00:04:45

sense,

00:04:46

involuntarily, in this context, you think

00:04:49

about how, in general, we are mediocre, I

00:04:52

would say disposed of this, as they would

00:04:55

now say, with the

00:04:57

Gagarin brand, especially in Well, of course,

00:05:02

post-Soviet,

00:05:03

almost everything that could be

00:05:07

done in this direction, literally lose everything

00:05:12

and

00:05:13

Well, this makes us think about a lot, of course,

00:05:16

and

00:05:18

especially in the context of modern

00:05:21

geopolitical contradictions in the context of the fact

00:05:23

that we we see how all over the world, in

00:05:26

one part, [music] gives rise to

00:05:28

the ease of establishing

00:05:36

Russophobic sentiments, anti-Russian

00:05:39

sentiments

00:05:41

in this sense, we of course need to

00:05:43

think about those, to

00:05:46

comprehend in a new way both our history and the

00:05:49

achievements of our country precisely in

00:05:51

order to set the task of creating

00:05:54

such a positive image of our

00:05:56

country in the global global community

00:05:58

Although it is clear that this will be

00:05:59

opposed, but

00:06:02

it has always been and will always be different,

00:06:06

it turns out

00:06:08

that Gagarin The problem is that Gagarin

00:06:11

did not become a brand as a whole, or he specifically did not

00:06:14

become our flagship behind which

00:06:19

the planet was perceived, this is how

00:06:21

humanity was perceived the people of the world

00:06:31

who remember this, the

00:06:35

generation of my parents, they

00:06:38

remember this, and this and confirmation of this,

00:06:41

I emphasize, can easily be found in historical

00:06:43

sources in the Chronicles of

00:06:46

documentaries. There and so on, and it is

00:06:49

clear that we could use this

00:06:51

as the first priority for achieving the Soviet

00:06:53

slender. It doesn’t matter as an achievement of just

00:06:55

our country it was possible not to connect it in the

00:06:57

end in 91. Clearly, you couldn’t

00:06:59

advertise it as a

00:07:01

Soviet achievement, but as an achievement of the fatherland

00:07:05

it doesn’t matter. Yes, as a son of Russia who became a

00:07:10

son of the Earth,

00:07:12

why did this happen too? It’s clear because

00:07:15

uh, you understand what’s the matter when a

00:07:18

new social system is established then

00:07:21

he must prove his advantages

00:07:23

Why did we abandon the previous system and

00:07:27

one thing is when this is proven by

00:07:29

deeds here, in general, with special

00:07:31

propaganda, ideology in general, yes, they

00:07:33

give way to the background when there are

00:07:35

real things to do,

00:07:37

and when, in general, there is nothing to report on

00:07:41

then people begin to involuntarily think,

00:07:45

so to speak, to what extent

00:07:48

their expectations were justified,

00:07:52

which they

00:07:54

experienced

00:07:57

in the early nineties, and in this

00:08:00

sense, it was completely clear that

00:08:02

the establishment of a new social system

00:08:05

without obvious and

00:08:06

obvious achievements is possible only

00:08:10

by completely discrediting

00:08:13

even those who put the obvious ones

00:08:18

simply and the outstanding achievements of the

00:08:20

Soviet period, and among them there are obviously

00:08:23

two of these, that is, it was possible, uh, to

00:08:26

drown literally everything in the mud in the slop

00:08:31

except for two completely obvious

00:08:35

events and achievements, of course, the

00:08:39

Great Victory of the

00:08:40

Great Patriotic War for the world is the

00:08:43

Second World War, this is the second time

00:08:47

this, of course, is the Soviet Space

00:08:50

achievement. This is the first satellite of the Earth. This is the

00:08:53

first manned flight into space. This is the

00:08:56

first man into outer

00:08:59

space, and so on, the

00:09:02

entire Space program, which in

00:09:05

general, after all, is

00:09:06

ultimately the path to

00:09:10

this, of course. This is a long story. in general with

00:09:13

astronautics there We certainly weren’t the

00:09:15

first,

00:09:17

although if we go there from Tsiolkovsky,

00:09:21

then theoretically probably 10 we have

00:09:23

primacy

00:09:26

at the level of applied research

00:09:29

directly, practically of course there. The

00:09:31

Germans came at the beginning and von Braun,

00:09:33

obviously the creator of the V-2 and then who,

00:09:36

in fact, headed the

00:09:37

American but he was, he surrendered to the

00:09:40

Americans, he was taken to the United

00:09:43

States of America, he headed the space

00:09:45

specialties there, he was kept at the level of the

00:09:48

Stalinist sharashka there in America, and only after a

00:09:53

relatively long time, in my opinion, about 10 years,

00:09:56

he tried it there with

00:09:58

absolute rights as a rabbit, and only then after the

00:10:04

creation in my opinion, from the Saturn rockets,

00:10:07

he, uh, received US citizenship and then

00:10:10

headed the outer space

00:10:13

space program of the United

00:10:15

States of America, it almost

00:10:17

smoothed out and doesn’t change, that is, in

00:10:20

general, he became such a

00:10:22

recognized person, but this is also a separate

00:10:25

story, but that’s why no less It is

00:10:30

obvious that the space programs of the USSR

00:10:33

and the USA did not develop in different

00:10:35

directions; if we ultimately

00:10:37

relied on stationary

00:10:40

orbital stations such as the world,

00:10:42

let’s say,

00:10:43

then the Americans on these return

00:10:47

shuttles, but in the end it turned out that it is

00:10:50

still most promising if we are

00:10:52

talking about the serious exploration of outer

00:10:54

space, the approach to which

00:10:55

turned out to be more fundamental,

00:10:57

thorough and more promising, it is no

00:10:59

coincidence that now there is an international

00:11:01

station, again, the experience of creating

00:11:03

which, of course, was accumulated

00:11:05

primarily by our country and the states.

00:11:07

But this is just one of these

00:11:11

touches

00:11:13

uh, it’s obvious that these two achievements, if

00:11:19

they weren’t discredited, then it

00:11:21

was impossible to completely discredit the Soviet

00:11:23

project, the Soviet idea and experience of the Soviet

00:11:27

period,

00:11:28

and from here So, and finally, strictly

00:11:31

speaking, it’s clear that Space is a big

00:11:34

expense and it’s advanced technology without

00:11:39

immediate momentary economic

00:11:42

benefits, returns, and so on further,

00:11:45

but tell me, we are now evaluating these

00:11:47

actions. It’s clear, decades later, but

00:11:49

here’s how the people who organized all this,

00:11:51

who were eyewitnesses of

00:11:53

this, what goals they saw in this,

00:11:57

what kind of future they saw for the mission of the

00:11:59

first flight into space, and so on,

00:12:03

no, but you understand what was the matter there

00:12:07

were two obvious absolutely points:

00:12:10

firstly,

00:12:12

the ship which was the Vostok

00:12:16

with which Gagarin went into orbit

00:12:19

made the first flight, these were after all

00:12:21

rockets which

00:12:23

were another struggle

00:12:27

immediately after the end of the Second World

00:12:30

War, the

00:12:31

stage of the Cold War begins, and

00:12:34

it even begins would be the moment

00:12:36

when

00:12:37

we had not yet finished, in fact,

00:12:39

the summing up

00:12:42

[music]

00:12:48

[music]

00:12:57

[music]

00:13:02

since He informed him during the

00:13:04

post-dames conference that the

00:13:06

United States has weapons

00:13:09

unprecedented before Syria, that is, an

00:13:11

atomic bomb test has already been carried out.

00:13:13

The Kid and

00:13:16

that is, America received nuclear weapons

00:13:19

and obvious superiority

00:13:22

in the Soviet Union. We will carry out the first explosion

00:13:25

tests of

00:13:27

domestic bombs this year and

00:13:31

If the Americans had reliable

00:13:33

carriers and a sufficient amount of

00:13:35

weapons-grade plutonium, then I have no doubt

00:13:37

that they would

00:13:39

have a business trip not to Japan but to the

00:13:42

Soviet Union today again

00:13:44

plans for a nuclear mission of the Soviet

00:13:47

Union by the United States of America, they have been

00:13:49

known for a long time, and

00:13:51

it was assumed that

00:13:53

their tactics were built for us in the bank of the

00:13:56

destruction of cities with a population of one million

00:13:59

Capitals and million-plus cities

00:14:01

than from year to year the number of cities that were

00:14:05

subject to nuclear bombing

00:14:07

increased there, the latest plan

00:14:11

was already counting hundreds of cities and

00:14:15

accordingly, But the Americans

00:14:19

still

00:14:20

had medium-range missiles

00:14:24

that were capable of carrying nuclear

00:14:27

weapons, as a matter of fact, the Caribbean

00:14:28

crisis is just, well, we somehow

00:14:32

again interpret it to a greater

00:14:35

extent. Well, I pay attention to our country

00:14:37

and interpret it as a defeat of the Soviet

00:14:39

Union which was forced to withdraw

00:14:41

the rockets in the club, but in fact there

00:14:45

was no defeat there, there was mutual

00:14:46

agreement. The fact is that this is the

00:14:49

von Braun Saturn rocket, it is

00:14:52

medium-range,

00:14:56

it was located on the territory of

00:14:58

Turkey and on the territory of Western European countries

00:15:01

and

00:15:03

the agreement after the Cuban Missile

00:15:05

Crisis, the Americans removed it from

00:15:09

duty in Turkey and in European countries. That

00:15:13

is, it was exactly such a

00:15:15

mutual disarmament policy, there

00:15:17

was no defeat of the Soviet Union,

00:15:19

but in the future, the Americans

00:15:21

rely on strategic bombers

00:15:23

as the main means of delivery

00:15:26

nuclear weapons and the Soviet Union took the

00:15:29

path of creating missiles and in this sense,

00:15:31

again, we have no equal to this

00:15:34

day, but the missile that uh

00:15:39

that Gagarin flew on was a missile

00:15:41

that was capable of delivering and Hmm I

00:15:44

carry a nuclear warhead

00:15:47

Therefore, the USSR program, of course, was of

00:15:50

utmost importance from the point of view of

00:15:52

ensuring the security of our country,

00:15:56

and secondly, of course, it opened up,

00:15:58

emphasizes this, unprecedented opportunities

00:16:00

for the

00:16:01

development of fundamental science in

00:16:04

all areas, it’s just necessary to

00:16:06

keep in mind that fundamental Science

00:16:08

ultimately turns into

00:16:09

profit because behind it lies

00:16:12

all the new technologies thanks to which

00:16:15

today

00:16:18

our civilization is changing beyond recognition, and over the course of

00:16:21

one generation it’s all embedded in

00:16:24

fundamental science, these are the

00:16:26

means of communication with which you

00:16:30

and I, being in different places, can

00:16:32

broadcast live everything is fundamental

00:16:34

science, which already has applied

00:16:36

significance, but it cannot give right

00:16:39

now on it. This is a long

00:16:41

investment

00:16:43

and the Soviet Union went for it, understands this

00:16:47

means of communication, and so on. But under

00:16:49

our conditions, we essentially curtailed

00:16:51

our space program and stopped

00:16:53

funding Now we are conducting a

00:16:55

special military operation. I think that

00:16:57

one of the fundamental issues that

00:16:59

stands is those omissions over 30 years that

00:17:02

we have allowed ourselves to believe that NATO

00:17:05

will not attack, that, uh, the world

00:17:08

is tolerant

00:17:11

indefinitely, and

00:17:13

today we clearly see

00:17:15

tolerance in ourselves And when

00:17:19

the Minister of Defense declares that all

00:17:22

NATO satellites are currently working

00:17:25

towards the enemy,

00:17:27

I think that this ensures very,

00:17:29

or rather, creates very great difficulties for us.

00:17:33

You said that the rocket on

00:17:36

which Gagarin flew was very

00:17:38

important from the point of view of the Cold War

00:17:40

Is it possible to

00:17:41

say that in general, Yuri Gagarin’s first flight into

00:17:45

space was decisive not

00:17:49

only in the Space Race between the USSR and the

00:17:51

USA, but also in all political and

00:17:53

political sectors and in general

00:17:55

public and so on Well, of course, here is

00:18:01

another myth from which,

00:18:04

unfortunately, it cannot to get rid of the current

00:18:09

political belly of the Russian

00:18:11

Federation

00:18:13

is that the

00:18:16

Soviet Union

00:18:19

was losing the Race for technology

00:18:22

to the strange Western Europe

00:18:33

associated with light industry and this

00:18:36

really created certain

00:18:39

difficulties, including from the point of view of

00:18:41

meeting the objective needs of

00:18:43

people, the

00:18:45

mass needs of people, and this, by the way,

00:18:48

played a role in preparation for

00:18:50

perestroika because of course a person

00:18:53

understands better than he walks what he eats There and

00:18:56

so on, as an example, you

00:18:58

know, being a first-year student at the

00:19:01

Faculty of History, this is

00:19:03

the year eighty-seven, I still remember to this day what

00:19:05

impression the teacher made about us,

00:19:08

who would have worked differently

00:19:11

Napoleon, uh, and he was on the road,

00:19:16

and while he was in the German

00:19:18

Democratic Republic, he came from

00:19:20

there and was looking, you know, the main problem of a

00:19:23

Gdrovsky German when he comes to the

00:19:26

store is which sausage to choose from 40

00:19:31

varieties, and then I somehow remember

00:19:34

how sausage can be made at all there may be forty

00:19:36

varieties Yes, maybe there is a boiled cheesecake there,

00:19:38

yes, home-made cheese, but there are 40 varieties

00:19:43

to this day. Believe me, it didn’t

00:19:47

help anyone to think that there could be

00:19:49

40-4 varieties of crayfish, you just

00:19:52

can’t eat it, please, now it’s lying there,

00:19:55

eating it is unsafe for health

00:19:59

so, accordingly, Yes, we

00:20:04

did not develop the industry group to an insufficient

00:20:06

degree, but this does not mean that we, in

00:20:09

principle, could not. Or let’s say

00:20:10

cars. Yes, it’s funny to compare how they

00:20:12

also really like to do this. Here’s a Western

00:20:15

car, here it is, as if I remember

00:20:17

these reasonings in the West too they

00:20:19

do everything for people, for people Well,

00:20:21

Zaporozhets Mercedes Well, Mercedes is

00:20:24

everything for people

00:20:25

Yes, but it seemed but uh, and no one thought about that, that

00:20:29

probably the country that

00:20:32

can produce the best space equipment in the world,

00:20:37

spacecraft is where everything is concentrated

00:20:40

the highest technologies the highest

00:20:42

technologies in general By the way, for our

00:20:45

listeners I want to say that the most

00:20:48

expensive type of product is always at all times

00:20:51

and among all peoples down there and

00:20:54

some other weapon

00:20:55

is a weapon that currently

00:21:00

provides an advantage on the

00:21:02

battlefields This is always cost the

00:21:05

most and all the technologies are the most advanced

00:21:09

technologies, alas, they are

00:21:13

connected in one way or another and are embodied in the

00:21:16

defense industrial complex and

00:21:20

in this sense, Soviet space and our

00:21:24

advantage, it of course

00:21:27

demonstrated a total advantage,

00:21:29

keep in mind that

00:21:36

in the seventeenth year when the Bolsheviks

00:21:38

took power

00:21:41

point in terms of social economic

00:21:44

levels of social

00:21:46

economic development, we It would seem hopeless

00:21:49

because of the smell

00:21:50

because this is still an agricultural country with an

00:21:54

illiterate, downtrodden semi-serf

00:21:57

population with remnants of landowners who

00:22:00

owned landowners. By the way, only a client from me

00:22:02

in the seventeenth year

00:22:04

and, accordingly, the breakthrough that we

00:22:07

made to come to the forefront

00:22:08

technology

00:22:10

expressed in space is an unprecedented

00:22:14

pace of evolution

00:22:23

because then some examples can

00:22:27

be given, like in general with the Soviet

00:22:29

Space program influenced not only the

00:22:31

development of

00:22:32

technology Yes in the USSR and maybe also on

00:22:35

people then how it changed their lives

00:22:40

Well, that’s life just

00:22:46

If you keep in mind This is what a person

00:22:50

lives with every day and about bread and butter

00:22:53

This was not enough

00:22:57

because

00:22:59

we couldn’t,

00:23:01

especially don’t forget that we were

00:23:04

in conditions of total isolation and starting

00:23:07

from the 16th century

00:23:09

the West purposefully can do this from

00:23:13

sources simply trace, they realize this, there

00:23:16

have been entire

00:23:18

programs for the

00:23:22

transfer of technologies to Russia

00:23:25

that can be

00:23:27

used for the production of

00:23:28

modern weapons, this is from the 16th century adobe of

00:23:33

Grozny. That is, this can simply be

00:23:35

proven from historical sources,

00:23:37

nothing has changed, especially nothing has changed in the

00:23:40

twentieth table, despite the fact that the

00:23:42

rest of the world develops in conditions of

00:23:45

specialization of the global

00:23:47

division of labor and And we were forced to

00:23:51

use our own resources and there was no

00:23:54

country in the world that could produce it. We

00:23:57

were forced to produce such a

00:23:59

quantity of items; there is simply more than

00:24:03

one product. The United States of America did not

00:24:04

produce such items,

00:24:06

from paper clips to

00:24:09

space equipment. apparatus of the most

00:24:11

modern And we did it all ourselves

00:24:14

And

00:24:16

this, too, this factor must be taken into account But the

00:24:19

fact that it had not only such a

00:24:22

foreign policy effect But it was

00:24:26

after Gagarin’s flight, by the way,

00:24:29

and the lag of the Americans, hearings were held

00:24:34

in the US Congress about those

00:24:37

factors that allowed it means for the Soviets

00:24:40

to win this race and the conclusion

00:24:44

that they came to has the most important

00:24:46

social significance and they came to the

00:24:49

conclusion that one of the fundamental

00:24:52

keys to

00:24:54

having lunch. This race lies in the

00:24:57

best system in the world of

00:24:59

mass education, free and accessible to

00:25:03

everyone,

00:25:04

and without this and without this it is not possible It would, of

00:25:07

course, be clear from space that there is a

00:25:09

genius there in the general designer

00:25:12

There and so on, but not one general

00:25:14

designer can help you without massive

00:25:17

training of

00:25:18

engineering personnel, the highest

00:25:20

qualifications are the highest to this day.

00:25:22

By the way, we

00:25:24

I think that we can train

00:25:27

engineers to a great extent letters

00:25:30

How, in essence, the

00:25:33

Creators of the new

00:25:37

Like no one else in the world, this is the best

00:25:41

question, just this topic was touched upon

00:25:44

How the Americans reacted in general to the

00:25:46

first flight

00:25:48

How they essentially accepted this defeat

00:25:51

no, well, how did they draw conclusions from this,

00:25:54

it is clear that

00:25:55

on the one hand this is the power of this

00:25:58

popularity

00:26:02

[music]

00:26:22

[music]

00:26:31

we needed, well then we played

00:26:34

too, it was simply impossible to

00:26:36

emphasize it, to miss it to such an extent to

00:26:38

release it as we allowed ourselves to do it, and

00:26:43

on the other hand, they of course drew

00:26:45

a conclusion, they analyzed the best along

00:26:48

with those education means there was a need for

00:26:50

corresponding uh changes in

00:26:52

manufacturers in their education system

00:26:54

and at least from the point of view of

00:26:55

training engineering personnel and

00:26:57

so on and luring specialists and

00:27:00

so on by the way, as far as I know to this

00:27:03

day, if a graduate of a number of universities E I won’t

00:27:07

name them they so obvious and

00:27:10

the faculty of the Soviet Union And in the

00:27:13

field of mathematics and physics, then

00:27:15

simply a diploma from this university provides

00:27:17

you with, uh, let’s say a position, if they are a

00:27:21

professor, then teachers in the

00:27:23

most prestigious colleges of the United

00:27:25

States of America, it’s just that the

00:27:26

faculty itself is that diplomas are

00:27:29

not recognized by ordinary education

00:27:32

USA no Strange Western Europe, the

00:27:34

points system did

00:27:36

not live up to

00:27:38

our expectations when we joined it

00:27:41

in 2003, but uh,

00:27:48

and in general, I think that in many ways

00:27:50

our defeat in 1991, if we

00:27:55

curtail everything, then that’s where the task was

00:27:58

and others to use to lure and

00:28:01

use those technologies those

00:28:03

advantages that need to be put

00:28:05

at the service of their interests

00:28:06

here I

00:28:09

just need to have specific

00:28:11

information I can’t be like

00:28:14

such an expert here

00:28:17

there were a lot of sources but just

00:28:21

from experience, as if

00:28:25

assessing

00:28:27

geopolitical processes I think that

00:28:29

somewhere close That’s how it was

00:28:32

because I said it, but you say that well, we

00:28:35

made some mistakes when trying,

00:28:38

in general, the question was these attempts

00:28:41

to keep this Heritage from the new Russia, and

00:28:43

as the heiress of the Soviet Union, there were

00:28:47

these attempts to collect this Huge

00:28:49

heritage and somehow preserve it

00:28:53

at the state level

00:28:56

[music]

00:29:04

but there it was. This terrible decade of the

00:29:08

90s was based solely on the

00:29:11

enthusiasm of the people who gave their lives to it,

00:29:15

that is, one way or another, in our time,

00:29:17

mistakes are corrected. Yes, somehow we can

00:29:19

see examples Well, if I hope so, then the

00:29:22

point of no return

00:29:25

has been passed. Because people are still alive, just

00:29:28

specialists. They live, but you know, I

00:29:31

can give you an example

00:29:33

related to Gagarin of astronautics. The fact is

00:29:36

that I have a house in the village

00:29:40

in just 5 kilometers to the place where Gagarin

00:29:44

crashed,

00:29:45

this is the Novoselovsky collective farm, the Soviet years

00:29:49

was a millionaire collective farm, specialized

00:29:51

in the

00:29:52

dairy industry, the population there

00:29:55

was 10,000

00:29:57

[music]

00:29:58

now there is not a single one left, but

00:30:03

if there was such an attitude in the world, then

00:30:06

obviously

00:30:08

it was what it was like in ours

00:30:14

and you you know, when I first came to the

00:30:18

place of death there are memorials there, by the way, on

00:30:20

April 12 every year,

00:30:25

including all the Cosmonauts whose last

00:30:28

name was known literally by the whole

00:30:31

country, literally the whole country, not only

00:30:33

Gagarin, all the other hermen flowers,

00:30:36

by the way, my name is not very

00:30:39

traditional for our country,

00:30:41

of course parents,

00:30:45

the popularity of German Titov

00:30:49

and now

00:30:53

[music]

00:30:54

when I was there for the first time, it was

00:30:58

the end of the nineties, then it had already become

00:31:01

so desolate, that is,

00:31:03

it is clear that no one goes there anymore. Only

00:31:05

enthusiasm, she entered there in front of

00:31:08

such a large memorial to Seryogin

00:31:10

Gagarin was there Well, this is a sign

00:31:14

indicating that you are in this

00:31:17

protected area, which

00:31:19

was a small

00:31:21

concrete pedestal and on it was a

00:31:28

stainless steel

00:31:33

stencil of

00:31:37

Migr 15 planes, this is where they crashed, made of

00:31:41

stainless steel when I arrived there a

00:31:44

year later. only

00:31:50

the skeleton remained, all the stainless steel

00:31:53

was removed

00:31:55

apparently for It’s clear Why non-ferrous

00:31:58

metals There and so on then it

00:32:01

amazed me to what extent

00:32:05

what was happening to us Because

00:32:08

Gagarin’s relations in general,

00:32:12

strictly speaking But these are two

00:32:15

obvious advantages in general In

00:32:17

our entire history of the Victory of the Great

00:32:19

Patriotic War war and Gagarin's flight of the

00:32:21

first man into space

00:32:23

How can there be nothing left of the Holy in the souls of

00:32:27

people Nothing at all In general, even if

00:32:33

they removed this one, how much

00:32:37

[music]

00:32:39

it means now this memorial

00:32:41

is maintained and I must say that in

00:32:44

recent years repairs have been carried out there,

00:32:47

they have put it in order and even there somehow

00:32:49

they arranged it, but

00:32:53

unfortunately, with practically a minimal

00:32:57

state, part with a minimal

00:33:00

private initiative of Darionov is impossible

00:33:04

with us, and

00:33:07

accordingly,

00:33:09

will this program be implemented to the

00:33:12

end thanks to him? Of course, this is his and his

00:33:16

personal funds

00:33:17

[music] are

00:33:21

installed there next to the temple with this in place of

00:33:26

a chapel they would create all this, I

00:33:28

emphasize a private initiative

00:33:32

You see, by the way, this is also shown here on

00:33:35

April 12 Here

00:33:38

[music]

00:33:40

probably the place of death of the son of the earth

00:33:43

is worthy of being included in the

00:33:47

State program and

00:33:49

supported by the state, is it

00:33:52

really impossible especially when you think about the

00:33:56

means that are spent,

00:33:59

but Let's take at least one cottage

00:34:02

on Rublyovka, estimate its cost, at

00:34:04

least one

00:34:06

and estimate How much is needed to

00:34:09

restore the

00:34:11

place in its proper form, create a

00:34:14

museum, for example, I'm

00:34:17

afraid that it's even less than the cost of

00:34:20

the cottage, I think so,

00:34:23

well, that's an indicator, after all, that's what it is

00:34:25

people come there they want people come

00:34:28

all the time not as much by the way as

00:34:29

we would like it could be

00:34:31

done in the end Well, not a

00:34:35

tourist mecca But at least

00:34:37

one of the most important in the end is Well, not

00:34:40

far from the Moscow highway Vladimir

00:34:42

Vladimir golden ring That is in

00:34:45

principle, any excursion route along the

00:34:47

Golden Ring with a trip in Vladimir

00:34:50

or from Moscow to Vladimir from Moscow to

00:34:53

Suzdal is a deviation from the route by 20

00:34:56

km, turning from Pokrov. This means 20 km

00:35:02

towards Kirzhach and then to the place of death.

00:35:06

Well, for the nearest settlements

00:35:08

this can become some kind of place of

00:35:10

attraction for people further than the problem.

00:35:23

That is, if we don’t know how to honor the

00:35:26

predita, the presidential program,

00:35:30

traditional values return and so

00:35:32

on, but

00:35:34

in this context, there is such a

00:35:39

concept of a place of memory, an

00:35:42

attitude to such things, we don’t have many of them

00:35:46

the fact that there are still not many

00:35:50

such places of memory left,

00:35:52

but tell me the reason is that people

00:35:56

initially were often, after all, relationships are

00:35:58

changing for the better As you

00:36:00

say, but when it started to become bad, you can say

00:36:03

sharply there, they dismantled it for metal,

00:36:05

or rather, it was even quite good. And somehow- then

00:36:06

it’s indifference and it’s

00:36:08

just murderous cold-bloodedness, the

00:36:11

reason after all is that in periods

00:36:15

of despair of a bad life, maybe people

00:36:18

forget about their Heritage. And in general, do

00:36:20

you think it’s permissible to

00:36:22

do this even when everything is very bad

00:36:24

in life?

00:36:26

Well, it’s actually complicated question On the one

00:36:30

hand, I wouldn’t blame the

00:36:32

masses of people here because

00:36:36

of course they were brought to such a state, although

00:36:38

you know in general sociological terms that’s the

00:36:41

speed with which this whole thing

00:36:46

collapsed, something that only yesterday seemed

00:36:48

indestructible

00:36:50

and how quickly a person gets to this

00:36:52

adapted It's just amazing to

00:36:56

me in this sense, I give this

00:37:00

example

00:37:01

for several for a year for two of this

00:37:06

event it was impossible to get to the

00:37:09

play staged at the Vakhtansky Theater based on the

00:37:12

play by Mikhail Shatrov further on

00:37:16

there Mikhail Gorbachev visited him all

00:37:21

soaring the bureau

00:37:23

at the performance was bursting because he it was

00:37:26

quite bold, there was an interpretation of

00:37:28

October, your day of revolution, but there was

00:37:31

one very piquant moment. Well, then

00:37:33

piquant

00:37:34

for the Soviet period. The fact is that according to the

00:37:38

play there it was decided by a scrap of the world, but

00:37:42

we remember Trotsky’s position of no war or peace

00:37:45

and Lenin’s principled position of peace

00:37:47

at any cost And there a violation of course of

00:37:50

historical Truth, this never

00:37:52

happened and could not have happened, but it was inserted into the play

00:37:55

and the fact is that there Lenin, uh,

00:37:59

begs Trotsky to still go to the

00:38:02

Brest-Litovsk Peace Treaty, not to organize a new

00:38:05

discussion in the party, he

00:38:08

fell on knees

00:38:12

to emphasize that you are Soviet, it

00:38:15

was very symbolic and multi-valued, well, this is the

00:38:20

number one informational occasion for the

00:38:23

essence of the matter. By the way, this scene

00:38:26

contained a lot of things that will happen to you during the

00:38:29

performance, look at how Lenin,

00:38:32

performed by Mikhail Ulyanov, falls on his

00:38:35

knees in front of the cable, performed by

00:38:38

Vasily Lanovoy

00:38:40

and also such an original directorial

00:38:43

move Vasily Lunovoy in the role, two meters

00:38:47

tall, means in the role the water of Chetra But it

00:38:51

doesn’t matter why I’m telling this but

00:38:54

after Well, maybe a year and a half or

00:38:56

two Here’s this performance that you

00:38:59

couldn’t get to just yesterday

00:39:02

Here At a speculative price, people

00:39:05

made a fortune selling tickets to this performance.

00:39:07

I

00:39:10

was in the Olympic Village

00:39:12

in the southwest. There was a visiting performance of the

00:39:14

Vakhtangov Theater and we, while still

00:39:16

students, took tickets, came and there were

00:39:19

five people sitting in the hall.

00:39:21

I thought maybe there was a performance. Maybe

00:39:25

there was a third one. composition maybe

00:39:27

students unknown playing no

00:39:31

these people's artists of the USSR came out

00:39:36

Star cast Mikhail Ulyanov

00:39:40

Vasily everything

00:39:45

I then if I did I think there

00:39:48

were two phenomena I thought about them I did

00:39:50

n’t even think about the performance itself I even

00:39:51

missed this scene when he was drinking everything

00:39:53

on his knees I couldn’t

00:39:56

understand how to correlate what was happening to us

00:39:57

Why just yesterday This

00:40:00

was impossible

00:40:03

So

00:40:06

everyone is still alive and it was like this yesterday And

00:40:08

today no one has

00:40:11

five students

00:40:13

and the second problem I thought my God

00:40:16

how can they play when in the hall 5

00:40:18

people in total, but then I, of course, the second

00:40:22

question, I quickly answered it. The fact is

00:40:24

that at the general ones, they seem to have such a

00:40:27

level of skill there. Moreover,

00:40:29

they have something similar when the

00:40:31

general shoulder straps, they can

00:40:34

abstract themselves from the empty hall, they played

00:40:35

superbly, that is here in one breath

00:40:37

That is, I thought, you know, so

00:40:39

let yourself take the liberty of relaxing, no,

00:40:42

People's Artists of the Soviet Union In an

00:40:44

empty hall for five students they played

00:40:46

like our last time

00:40:49

at school

00:40:53

Well, that's how it happens How quickly

00:40:56

people who are the most spiritual country, the most

00:41:00

reading country suddenly

00:41:03

completely different problems of the

00:41:05

card came to the forefront, a card system

00:41:08

appeared, which we were the first to introduce, by the way, abolished

00:41:11

After the Great Patriotic War,

00:41:13

which introduced the first in the world,

00:41:15

the system was abolished and then it was suddenly introduced and

00:41:19

completely different problems began for people, and

00:41:22

when this decay, rotting became

00:41:27

the norm when did the absence of a norm at all

00:41:30

begin to declare as a norm

00:41:33

what you expect from people

00:41:36

Well, this is essentially exactly what you

00:41:38

are talking about, that here is the same monument to its

00:41:40

restoration there, you also mentioned about the

00:41:43

Museum that it would be possible to create a

00:41:45

state there has no hand in this

00:41:48

all private initiatives, but

00:41:53

this, too, this was also being prepared,

00:41:56

it just happened very quickly and

00:41:58

you know, I think many sociologists, philosophers

00:42:01

who, among other things, thought and

00:42:04

developed the corresponding plans did not

00:42:07

expect some kind of ease to happen

00:42:10

[music]

00:42:13

including politicians who At that

00:42:16

time, the

00:42:17

leading powers of the world were leading how they were afraid of the

00:42:22

speed with which all this

00:42:25

would happen, and most importantly, ease,

00:42:27

ease,

00:42:29

the country was losing its positions,

00:42:32

German Anatolyevich, our

00:42:35

time is slowly coming to an end. I would like to

00:42:37

ask you the final questions,

00:42:38

which historian is the Soviet Space Program

00:42:41

and the first flight into space,

00:42:43

including What are the three important

00:42:48

points of the reasons for the important results? Yes, you

00:42:51

can name this that

00:42:53

continues to influence us to

00:42:57

this day

00:42:59

Well, here are three Let's have more, if more then

00:43:02

generally great,

00:43:05

you know

00:43:07

there is only one reason

00:43:13

[music ]

00:43:38

to what extent

00:43:50

[music]

00:43:51

but the monks of the book preserved the chronicle tradition

00:43:56

Why

00:44:00

with one simple thing because the

00:44:02

memory of the golden age of Kievan Rus alone

00:44:08

gave an

00:44:09

inexhaustible charge of optimism for the

00:44:12

living generations in order not to

00:44:15

give up and find at least

00:44:18

some basis for strength in order to

00:44:22

continue to live and continue to live

00:44:25

to recreate the conditions for the national

00:44:27

state Revival, an

00:44:33

example of the

00:44:34

success of

00:44:36

our country in the Space program. This is an

00:44:39

example of success in the most advanced

00:44:42

high-tech technologies, and one memory of

00:44:47

this,

00:44:49

also by analogy with the example

00:44:54

that I took,

00:44:56

creates all the necessary conditions for that

00:44:59

so that the same tasks to ensure the

00:45:02

national state

00:45:04

Revival of the Fatherland

00:45:11

Thank you very much, German Anatolyevich,

00:45:13

I think it is sincere and good, an

00:45:16

important conclusion to our today’s

00:45:18

program, dear friends, I hope you

00:45:21

liked this issue. I remind you that you

00:45:26

can purchase the book by Evgeniy Spitsyn,

00:45:28

which is located next to me at

00:45:30

the link in the description Ivan Kotov was at the microphone,

00:45:33

our guest today is historian

00:45:35

Germana Anatolyevich Artamonov, you

00:45:38

watched the red project Thank you, see you

00:45:40

Goodbye Goodbye

Description:

В годовщину полёта Юрия Гагарина есть повод поговорить не только о космосе, но и о советском проекте развития Человека. Космос был и мечтой, и картиной светлого будущего. Каким будущее кажется сегодня и почему только социализм может дать человеку смысл жизни, — обсудим с историком Германом Артамоновым. Ведущий: Иван Котов

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