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0:00

Intro

1:30

Zack's Origin Story

6:08

Art Center

7:52

Communicating Vision

9:47

Creating Consistency

13:23

The Russo's Film Process

16:25

Zack's Process

17:50

Sequencing the Film

19:13

Relationship with Camera Operators

24:17

Film School

29:17

Dawn of the Dead

30:53

Directing Commercials & TV

34:02

Writing Scripts

36:50

Writing Justice League

44:32

Reacting vs Innovating

45:43

The Golden Age of TV

47:34

Breaking Traditional Norms in Film

50:28

Working with Actors

56:32

How Theater Effects Filmmaking

1:00:15

Harrison Ford Story

1:01:54

Actors Helping Directors

Superman vs Flash

Superman vs Flash

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Diana & Steve - Ending

Diana & Steve - Ending

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Russo

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Anthony Russo

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Pizza Film School

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Zack Snyder

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Filmmaking

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[Music]

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hey everyone I am Joe Russo and welcome

00:00:12

to a very special episode of pizza Film

00:00:16

School joining us today is visionary

00:00:20

director Zack Snyder Zach welcome to

00:00:22

Pizza Film School awesome thank you for

00:00:25

doing it thank you for guys for having

00:00:26

me yeah I'm so psyched you're here

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amazing so as everyone knows the premise

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of pizza film school is we get some

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pizza we hang out we talk pizza today is

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from D-Town this is Detroit style this

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is in honor of our uh our our special

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interview today uh it's very heavy

00:00:43

though so we may get sluggish about

00:00:45

halfway through the interview so we

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apologize ahead of time but let's jump

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into it so you know the premise of pizza

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Film School is

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we talked to a director about uh their

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process from start to finish right

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there's no handbook if you're a young

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filmmaker out there you know it's really

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difficult to gain access and insight

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into how other directors work so we

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created this as a way to share

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information share process maybe inspire

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people who don't have an opportunity to

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go to film school or can't afford film

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school hopefully they can listen to this

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podcast and get some good information if

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they have the dream of being a film

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director yeah and to give it a focus we

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pick a single film from a director and

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try to structure the conversation around

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the experience of that film right and we

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we're hoping to do your Justice League

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oh sure yeah awesome cool so just to

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talk a little bit from Soup To Nuts as

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filmmakers is something we sit in off

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with the complexity of visual effects

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that you bring to a movie it's beyond

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what I think just about anyone can do on

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the planet and so I'd love to get behind

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that a little bit and talk a little bit

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about your background you started as a

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painter correct yes so I wasn't awesome

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at high school at normal

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the normal math

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uh but you know the normal stuff you

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know I was pretty good PE I'll be honest

00:02:03

right brain left brain you you were a

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left brain yeah a little bit a little

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bit on the left I'd gotten kicked out of

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my boarding school and ended up in

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public school I had pretty much all my

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requirements to graduate I think I had

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to take a history class and at Ramapo

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High School in Franklin Lakes New Jersey

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is where I ended up I had been at this

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small boarding school in Connecticut and

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and ended up in public school I remember

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I went in there and I like I had a tie

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on the first day in a Blazer Stark

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difference yeah I was like you know what

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we're die every day

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it's cool not to okay that's fine did

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you wear it the day two no day two I

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think I just wore the Blazer yeah I

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didn't feel like it was cool not to

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replace and what is it that what got you

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kicked out of your uh I like to think

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that I I had been making a film in in my

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um in my in my boarding school and it

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was kind of like it was like a remake of

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Apocalypse Now but sort of in our

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boarding school and like one of the kids

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like is sort of Kurtz well the principal

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was Kurtz and the kid goes to like he

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doesn't murder him or anything like that

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you know that's not that's Roundup but

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um it was but how he goes sort of insane

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through his like

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suit of the the Headmaster anyway so it

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turned out to be like you know slightly

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controversial and I like to think that's

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what it was I think there was some other

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thing but the Headmaster wasn't on board

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with his interpretation yeah yeah you

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know so I like to think it was the film

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that got me fully expelled and they

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trumped up some other charges but

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that's amazing

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they didn't really have a strong art

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Department art sort of focus at my

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boarding school but when I got to public

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school yeah exactly when I got to public

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school today I I because I had most of

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my requirements to graduate I just

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decided to

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to take like three art classes I could

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take three art classes back to back in

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the morning and then I think I had my

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history class and then pretty much PE

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for the rest of the day it was pretty it

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was pretty great and so I instead of

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taking AP classes that's what I did

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because I could have you know done that

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but I didn't decided not to do it

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so I was able to really generate a

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pretty great art portfolio so then I

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went to the school in London called

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hetalese and was studying to be a

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painter even though I had done films and

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shot movies you know all through high

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school and that was kind of my hobby I

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just was you know and when I you know I

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was a senior in high school and I just

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felt like

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being a painter was weirdly romantic and

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so

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I thought I would do that but then

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during my course of studies in at uh in

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London at heatherly's my art advisor and

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maybe because my paintings were horrible

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she said she said um you know you really

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loved making these movies and your

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paintings are really cinematic you know

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they're always like

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you know is that a thing and I said oh

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maybe that I I love I do love making

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movies and that was fun and you know I

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always thought that would be cool but

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you know I just thought

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can I be a movie director that feels

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like a big ask you know so I I sent out

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for a bunch of films called catalogs in

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the Art Center

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College design catalog here in past up

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in Pasadena came and I totally judged it

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by the cover completely said like this

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is where I want to go to school because

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it was like a black catalog with an

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orange dot on it right no words I was

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like this if that's cool this is

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sophisticated yeah I was like this is

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intense and I think the inside I

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remember there was a picture in the film

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department it was like some there was

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like students on a crane with a

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panovision camera and the guy was

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pointing

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[Laughter]

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someone had gotten that but it was cool

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but yeah so yeah so that's how I ended

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up in Pasadena and I had submitted my

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paintings as part of my

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you know I had a your portfolio to get

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filmed yeah and my paintings and they

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were like I think that really was what

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got me over while you're studying film

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at Arts Center did you also take did you

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continue painting or take classes they

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have a really rigorous illustration and

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sort of art spine stays pretty stayed

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pretty intense a lot of my friends who I

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went to school with couldn't really draw

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and aren't awesome

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painting or drawing great filmmakers but

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just don't have that skill set which is

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100 not necessary to make a movie but

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um we're really complaining about the

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you know about the rigorous kind of like

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having to paint swatches and make gray

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scales out of like you know gouache and

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all that that you have to that they

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forced you to do they hated it and

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didn't do well at that stuff but I loved

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that part of it and and you know to this

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day I draw like 90 of the storyboards

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for all the movies I draw them all

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myself and so it's super exhausting and

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I don't recommend that

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um no but it's it is a it but it's just

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the way I I I've always done it and even

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then you know I really meticulously Drew

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everything before we shot you know and I

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think that that and I think frankly

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that's what's helped me I think in the

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visual effects

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with the visual effects sort of

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components of the movies I make you know

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kind of understanding that

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like what elements would be the effects

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well they're they're very rich and

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textured and the use of light is very

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painterly like you know it wasn't until

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I found out until a little research for

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years ago I was like how does he do this

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and I found out you had a background as

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a painter I went okay that all makes

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sense now because one of the hardest

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things to do on movies of scale is

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communicate Vision right because that

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Vision has to be translated to thousands

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of people and anywhere along the way

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that Vision can get corrupted right

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because there's an artist

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somewhere in London right who makes a

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decision uh you know on a sequence

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that suddenly sets off a whole different

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lighting pattern for that sequence and

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it's you know when you're working on

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movies of that are this ginormous you

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have to keep your arms around it in a

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way

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and you have to communicate it's really

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hard but communication is critical and

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it was something that we introduced

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Anthony and I started saying we should

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we should be doing key frames critical

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key frames where we're bringing in every

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member of you know our key Department

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our a operator our DP production

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designer and everyone is contributing to

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these keyframes per sequence right so

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the process we would use is we would

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have a keyframe that was distributed to

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everyone it was on set we'd blow it up

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it'd be in the corner everyone knew

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exactly what we're trying so sort of

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like this is the look Dev this is the

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this is it everybody understands

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this is where we want to be every

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department is driving at that image we

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give it to every VFX company that was

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contributing to that sequence this is

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what it is and we would use that

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for consistency throughout certainly the

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only way we got through infinite warning

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game was doing that was bringing you

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know this um this level of specificity

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as a way to communicate because you

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don't you know we're we're not talking

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to every artist we're not talking to

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every you know you're not talking to

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every VFX company you know we had a

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strong relationship with ilm we'd go up

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there once a year and hang out and meet

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as many people as we could but you know

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you can't do that for the nine other

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companies that are also working on your

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films and even then down the down the

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ladder you know there's still a thousand

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guys that are you know contributing so

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yeah for sure exactly how are you doing

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how are you creating that consistency I

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think it's

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in a similar way a really good friend of

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mine this guy Jared perrington who I

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work with on a lot of

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basically I'll do a sketch and send it

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to him and he'll knock up a giant

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painting of it you know that's really

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and we'll go back and forth on it and

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it's basically the same thing like I

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really try and generate as much art as I

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can on a sequence or even the set design

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and everything you know

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the when I the problem is like you know

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when you draw the storyboard and I'm

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like oh the door really needs to be

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hinged on the on this side yeah because

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you know I'm going to be like you

00:10:24

because you drew the whole sequence but

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a lot of times you know

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at first I found that those kinds of

00:10:30

details weren't necessarily you know

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everyone would be like oh you know like

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how seriously does he take this right

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right the door

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yeah that's a nice image yeah it's cool

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though you know

00:10:43

and I think that that over the over time

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that one part of it as far as the the

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specificity of the drawings and like

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look really does need to in order

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because if actually if you flip the door

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it kind of everything's like when he

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opens it now he's covered you see like

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he you can't so like all of that Ripples

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and so but but for me like the sort of

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creation of those in a very similar way

00:11:07

to what you do these these kind of

00:11:10

keyframes and they'll be

00:11:12

depending if I how much I like the scene

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you know or I'm into it or it's really

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fussy there might be you know a number

00:11:20

of those kinds of paintings that I do

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for a particular sequences then I just

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try and really get at the drawings

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really carefully and I do find it a

00:11:28

really great tool

00:11:30

just to get everybody on the same page

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what happens is I start to split off

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from the script a little bit right

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because what happens is when I draw the

00:11:39

storyboards I do because I'm kind of

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blocking the first blocking pass is what

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I do with the drawings because when I'm

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drawing I'll be like if I'd written the

00:11:49

script and then drew it you know the

00:11:51

rewrite in the drawings happens a little

00:11:53

bit maybe a little dialogue tweet

00:11:55

because like I'll

00:11:56

if I'm drawing like oh it's an over and

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then some close-ups or whatever and I'll

00:12:01

I'll write the dialogue under the

00:12:03

drawing you know and you'll sometimes

00:12:06

I'd find like oh I wrote that you know

00:12:08

they come in the room and then there's

00:12:10

like a walk and talk over to the guy but

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it doesn't really work because you know

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the room's really not as big as I

00:12:15

thought it was and you know whatever so

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I can kind of do that first sort of

00:12:19

level of it's not editing so much as it

00:12:21

is kind of doing the puzzling and

00:12:23

puzzling it out so unless the Topography

00:12:25

of the movie yeah and you know how like

00:12:28

that always evolves you know and then

00:12:30

when the actors get in there they have

00:12:31

their own ideas and they're like oh you

00:12:32

know I think of me but you know like I I

00:12:34

want to do the scene up on top of it you

00:12:36

know right it'd be better I think it's

00:12:39

better for just like here like you know

00:12:41

near each other and then a lot of times

00:12:44

I'll use the drawings I'll be like you

00:12:45

know I kind of Drew you guys at a table

00:12:47

and they're like oh like okay fine yeah

00:12:53

I just have to say like listening um to

00:12:56

your process it's so um first of all you

00:12:59

can just see how it translates to your

00:13:01

filmmaking how your filmmaking is so

00:13:03

elevated because of that process and I'm

00:13:05

so jealous because Joe and I are like we

00:13:07

can't draw to save our lives so it's

00:13:08

it's stick figures and napkins you know

00:13:10

and then uh Thanos

00:13:13

yeah

00:13:15

we we have great collaborate

00:13:18

collaborators so yeah I draw a ton and I

00:13:20

still have a ton of sport artists that I

00:13:21

work with you know so do you guys how's

00:13:25

that relationship for you guys with the

00:13:27

board artist is it it's great it's a

00:13:29

little more

00:13:30

Cavalier and that like we'll we'll throw

00:13:33

a couple of board artists at something

00:13:35

right we like to ideate I mean our whole

00:13:37

process is communication and ideation is

00:13:40

a big part of that like verbal ideation

00:13:42

because there's two of us so we have to

00:13:43

talk through everything we just pitch

00:13:45

each other ideas all day long so we'll

00:13:47

have an idea for a sequence you know you

00:13:49

get to that point where you do enough of

00:13:50

these movies and you go okay I'm gonna

00:13:52

need you know it's gonna you know it's a

00:13:53

third act I gotta get everybody together

00:13:55

we're gonna have to you know take this

00:13:57

character down because that's going to

00:13:58

be a big moment for the audience who

00:14:01

should take them down while we've set

00:14:02

that up earlier in the movie maybe big

00:14:04

payoff and then this person shows and so

00:14:06

you just start orchestrating all the

00:14:07

Dynamics of it and then we break it up

00:14:09

into chunks so say like a third act and

00:14:11

then we'll give it to different artists

00:14:12

right oh sure and then we work with a

00:14:14

lot of artists so we just what's their

00:14:16

skill set right oh this one's character

00:14:17

oriented oh this one's big on high

00:14:19

concept and set pieces and you know so

00:14:21

we'll try to assign based on skill set

00:14:24

and then you know they'll start giving

00:14:26

us ideas and then sometimes we'll make

00:14:28

them trade okay yeah you know and then

00:14:30

they'll give us different ideas and then

00:14:32

you know we'll piece it all together and

00:14:34

then say okay here you're going to

00:14:36

finish off this sequence and here are

00:14:37

the great ideas that we like and then

00:14:39

you get some more over here and it's

00:14:40

it's constantly shifting and moving I

00:14:42

mean literally until like six weeks

00:14:44

before we release the film yeah and then

00:14:45

eventually if we start to circle around

00:14:47

ideas that really resonate with us we'll

00:14:49

we'll move that image from the concept

00:14:52

artists to the art department and then

00:14:54

we'll start to build it out into these

00:14:57

key image key frames that we use so the

00:14:59

art department will then give it or the

00:15:02

production designer will give it its

00:15:03

sort of framing within the movie then

00:15:05

we'll make sure that the cinematographer

00:15:07

weighs in on it will make sure every

00:15:09

Department weighs in on that image as we

00:15:11

tweak and refine it so that eventually

00:15:13

it becomes this document that everybody

00:15:15

has contributed to and it's it's what

00:15:19

we're going for and everybody visual

00:15:21

effects is also certainly feeds into

00:15:23

that process so do you guys think that

00:15:25

the or is the process for the keyframe

00:15:28

like did it does it start kind of as a

00:15:30

one of the frames of the of the you're

00:15:32

like okay here's the shot where the guys

00:15:34

all come into the room and everyone

00:15:36

looks badass and you can see the whole

00:15:37

thing and we're going to take that frame

00:15:39

now like let's knock this up and get it

00:15:41

painted get it turn it into kind of it's

00:15:44

the key moment it's yeah whatever that

00:15:45

critical moment is that's the thing

00:15:47

we'll spend all the energy on and the

00:15:48

resources on and two this is we didn't

00:15:51

mention that you know sometimes you'll

00:15:53

take board work and you'll give it to

00:15:55

the viz team because what's going on and

00:15:57

it is so big that they're flying

00:15:59

characters if they're characters with

00:16:01

really extreme Powers that's when we'll

00:16:03

send it over to the viz team well

00:16:06

characters who don't have uh flying

00:16:08

powers we tend to assign that to our

00:16:10

stunt viz team oh sure so then stunt viz

00:16:12

is punching and you know it's more

00:16:14

acrobatic choreography and then so you

00:16:17

know once you've gone through the boards

00:16:19

and you've come up the ideas it then

00:16:21

gets disseminated out to those two teams

00:16:22

then from that we then turn into

00:16:24

keyframes for me it's like and I do

00:16:27

almost exactly that

00:16:29

as well you know because I the stunt

00:16:31

teams I've worked with forever I'm sure

00:16:32

you guys have the same you know and they

00:16:34

make their stunt Biz and they're in the

00:16:36

in the warehouse you know with their

00:16:38

cardboard sets and stuff

00:16:40

um I'm going over there after this as a

00:16:42

matter of fact to talk to the guys but

00:16:44

you know for me it's also where you

00:16:47

where you split off from previous or

00:16:50

stunt viz and then like you get

00:16:53

sometimes you know that'll overlap into

00:16:55

kind of a semi-normal

00:16:57

sequence between two actors you know

00:16:59

that like it kind of comes down and then

00:17:01

there and then it goes to like real

00:17:04

previews you know and everything becomes

00:17:06

like on the planet or any of these giant

00:17:10

superheroes saying the dialogue or

00:17:12

they're flying or they're in space or

00:17:15

Steppenwolf you know whatever it is you

00:17:17

know you you know that's where you

00:17:18

really kind of go like wow like that you

00:17:21

know the drawing became the stunt viz

00:17:25

became the actual like previz and now

00:17:28

now it's conceptualized in a way that it

00:17:31

could be translated to the film do you

00:17:33

guys cut the stunt business kind of cut

00:17:35

like a movie right so 100 feels like a

00:17:37

movie and then the previous course is

00:17:39

kind of like a movie and sometimes

00:17:41

I'll do an animatic even of like

00:17:44

sequences don't really that aren't

00:17:46

really

00:17:48

you know action 8 per se you can get the

00:17:50

flow you're sort of like animation

00:17:52

you're making the movie prior to making

00:17:53

the movie we would joke that you know

00:17:55

when you do these big films that you

00:17:57

make the movie like five times before

00:17:58

you before you finally shoot it you know

00:18:01

we'll do edits that'll include all of

00:18:04

those elements you know and just sort of

00:18:06

have this kind of crazy Frankenstein

00:18:07

Montage of stunt this previous

00:18:10

storyboards early on I think before uh I

00:18:14

think the Winter Soldier we're asking

00:18:15

some of the actors just give us their

00:18:16

lines on a iPhone and then we're cutting

00:18:18

them over the animatic and you know

00:18:20

again just trying to process it and then

00:18:22

once you get more comfortable and

00:18:23

confident with the process you know

00:18:25

where you want that flexibility we work

00:18:27

with the same a camera operator on

00:18:29

everything you're a really tight

00:18:31

relationship with them I said we don't

00:18:33

want to exclude him from the process in

00:18:34

any way so we start working with him

00:18:36

much earlier in the process but also we

00:18:38

know where there are moments that you

00:18:41

know listen this is going to be people

00:18:42

talking in a room and that's going to be

00:18:44

based on you know Downey's going to have

00:18:46

an opinion about where he stands and you

00:18:48

know so we're just not going to waste a

00:18:50

lot of energy on that now but we're

00:18:52

going to waste energy on is uh you know

00:18:54

the things over here the minute that

00:18:56

helmet goes on it's no longer Robert now

00:18:59

it's his character we have to control

00:19:00

but make it feel like him and you know

00:19:03

it takes a lot of energy and effort so

00:19:05

that's where we've learned over time is

00:19:08

like where where we'll ascribe energy

00:19:09

versus where we won't in the prep phase

00:19:12

of the project it's funny that you

00:19:14

mentioned that the camera operator I

00:19:15

think that's the thing that

00:19:16

you know I have a hugely close

00:19:19

relationship with my a camera operator

00:19:20

as well

00:19:22

um and I I find it it's a thing probably

00:19:24

in film school you don't no one's going

00:19:26

to teach you that the your camera

00:19:30

operator

00:19:32

is like a really it's the relationship

00:19:35

is super important there's so much

00:19:36

subtlety that goes on yeah in in how

00:19:39

shots are set up and how the camera

00:19:41

moves work and how the

00:19:43

where even just the weight of the frame

00:19:46

and how it's transitioning really like

00:19:48

guys I Really Wanna and um on this guy

00:19:52

sometimes like you know that that

00:19:53

translation if it doesn't happen

00:19:54

correctly yeah even just the way the

00:19:56

shot's set up it can't happen that's

00:19:58

right they're the direct conduit of

00:20:00

what's in here

00:20:02

to the rest of the world right because

00:20:04

whatever they film is what you can edit

00:20:06

together and that's the movie yeah and I

00:20:08

think that that's that's a relationship

00:20:09

that I don't know that is really talked

00:20:12

about at all we find that our

00:20:16

our processes directors has has gotten

00:20:19

much stronger and more dynamic as our

00:20:22

relationship with our a camera operator

00:20:24

has developed I mean it's just it

00:20:26

changes everything yeah I worked this

00:20:27

guy John Clothier who I've worked with

00:20:29

on all my movies well the first movie he

00:20:30

did was Watchmen and he um for me and he

00:20:34

I always noticed

00:20:36

more than anyone on set he had my

00:20:38

drawings like in his pocket right right

00:20:41

and I really see him like take out the

00:20:43

dirt like everyone else would be working

00:20:44

and he'd be like looking at the drawings

00:20:46

and like looking and kind of going like

00:20:49

yeah this doesn't this doesn't look like

00:20:51

what we're supposed to be like what's

00:20:52

that true you know and so and everyone

00:20:54

would be like oh whatever you know like

00:20:56

they're like we've looked at the

00:20:57

drawings a week ago we don't need to

00:20:58

look at them again you know they're and

00:21:00

so it's just that and I was like that

00:21:01

guy right there like I got up I gotta

00:21:04

and they could command the set in a way

00:21:06

right because then they can start

00:21:07

orchestrating talking to the set

00:21:09

Department talking to lighting talking

00:21:11

to the DP about you know Vision really

00:21:13

wants the camera here they could be that

00:21:15

individual on set who is the the most

00:21:17

important in terms of the mise and Son

00:21:20

and the execution of the movie and

00:21:23

you're right like we we said the exact

00:21:25

same thing they don't have a class in

00:21:27

film school that's called you know a

00:21:28

relationship between director and a

00:21:30

camera operator it might be the most

00:21:31

significant relationship on product on a

00:21:34

production and it really isn't a special

00:21:36

also the DP and the a camera operator

00:21:38

are really close and trust each other

00:21:40

yeah oh yeah you know then that

00:21:43

relationship is really like a ballet

00:21:45

because they can

00:21:46

if for instance you're saying like I

00:21:48

really want to just you know the DP

00:21:50

might have envisioned the scene and sort

00:21:52

of lit the scene

00:21:53

where maybe it's not a hundred percent

00:21:56

working for I mean everything looks good

00:22:00

until like you know you're like I really

00:22:01

want to get closer like and like

00:22:04

the this light's gonna shatter whatever

00:22:07

it is you know there's a million things

00:22:08

but but if the a camera operator

00:22:11

kind of is intuitive will know like guys

00:22:14

that light is not gonna work there

00:22:16

because they're really going to want to

00:22:17

be here I know it you know like that

00:22:19

that's a and that's a huge deal it

00:22:21

shapes the entire Dynamic of the scene

00:22:23

and without

00:22:24

that guy who's kind of Technical and

00:22:27

understands what you're going to really

00:22:28

want yeah

00:22:30

we know it's interesting because a lot

00:22:32

of people think that a lot of times and

00:22:33

and traditionally you know that people

00:22:35

would think that would fall to the DP

00:22:36

yep you know and but a lot of times the

00:22:39

minutia of the actual

00:22:41

camera move and how it's framed and

00:22:43

stuff it there's a big distinction right

00:22:45

there are a lot of DPS who function like

00:22:47

what we call European DPS where they

00:22:49

want to focus almost exclusively on

00:22:51

lighting you know and then they're out

00:22:53

of the DPS who are former operators who

00:22:56

love the operation of the camera and in

00:22:58

fact a lot of times Drive the a camera

00:23:00

operator insane because they really want

00:23:02

to be operating the camera right but

00:23:05

they're different so you know the way we

00:23:07

work is we have strong lighting DP with

00:23:10

a really strong a operator right and you

00:23:13

know the two of them work well together

00:23:14

but the a operator is responsible for

00:23:17

the camera how the camera moves lens

00:23:19

choices they do it in discussion with

00:23:21

the DP but the DP lights and the DP

00:23:24

lights beautifully part of it too is

00:23:26

like we like to move at a quick Pace

00:23:28

because you're there for a prescribed

00:23:30

amount of time and the actors are there

00:23:32

for a prescribed amount of time the crew

00:23:33

runs out of gas after a certain amount

00:23:35

of hours you accumulate those hours you

00:23:37

start having a slow set and suddenly 30

00:23:40

days in everybody's operating at 50 and

00:23:42

that's disastrous for the quality of the

00:23:44

film so we like to move at pace so it's

00:23:46

important that a DP Focus exclusively on

00:23:48

the lighting operator on this because it

00:23:50

keeps the set moving we don't cut in

00:23:52

between takes once we get the actors in

00:23:54

there we just like to focus on it for

00:23:56

six or seven takes nobody has to go to

00:23:58

the bathroom or get a smoke and you know

00:24:00

really it really just keeps them yeah

00:24:02

focused on the work allows us to because

00:24:04

we like to build performance through

00:24:05

layers so every take is like a different

00:24:07

opportunity for us

00:24:09

to try to get another shade that we're

00:24:11

looking for rather than trying to get

00:24:13

them to do it all at once and then we

00:24:14

can compound those or build those how we

00:24:16

want to in the edit room yeah you know

00:24:18

for a second I want to go back to film

00:24:19

school for a moment because you know

00:24:21

part of the goal of this conversation is

00:24:22

to make you know the process accessible

00:24:25

to um first-timers or people just trying

00:24:27

to find their way into filmmaking or

00:24:30

think about it especially when they're

00:24:31

coming from places where they don't have

00:24:33

a lot of resources for that there's a

00:24:35

lot of controversy right now around Film

00:24:37

School recently in terms of like is it

00:24:39

is it it's expensive it takes a lot of

00:24:42

time and effort Etc is it worth it

00:24:44

what's your sort of view of your

00:24:47

experience in film school and number two

00:24:49

when you look at other I know you went

00:24:52

went to Art Center with a lot of very

00:24:54

successful filmmakers who would go on to

00:24:56

be a lot of successful filmmakers when

00:24:59

you look at other people who went

00:25:00

through the film school program with you

00:25:01

do you are men most of them working in

00:25:04

film or do they end up in other areas

00:25:05

well I I was in a really small when I

00:25:08

was at Art Center the film department

00:25:09

was really small

00:25:10

um I was in class with my graduating

00:25:14

class was I think there was four of us

00:25:17

that's how small it was wow it's amazing

00:25:19

and it was me and Larry Fong and this

00:25:21

guy clay Staub who's

00:25:23

shot who's very successful commercial

00:25:25

director shot a lot of second unit for

00:25:27

me so for us we were just like

00:25:30

we were uh just like friend like it was

00:25:34

just like a weird little group of

00:25:35

friends and you know and

00:25:38

in you know there was a lot of talented

00:25:40

filmmakers in the classes right around

00:25:43

me

00:25:44

and Michael Bay and tarsem you know a

00:25:47

bunch of guys right

00:25:48

you know like you know a year and ahead

00:25:51

a year behind all but all of us kind of

00:25:53

together I do think their voice is very

00:25:55

similar

00:25:56

to what I don't know that they changed

00:26:00

tremendously in film school I I would

00:26:03

say the only thing the one of the big

00:26:05

benefits of film School

00:26:08

is that you can fail kind of a little

00:26:10

bit you know you can fail and it doesn't

00:26:13

it's not that big of it gives you a

00:26:15

laboratory it gives you a chance to like

00:26:17

take some Cuts you know take some swings

00:26:19

and not like have a studio go like well

00:26:22

that was no good so you're never working

00:26:24

again yeah yeah exactly forever and I think

00:26:27

that that to me is like the cool the

00:26:31

cool part of film school like do like

00:26:33

that's your chance to do something weird

00:26:35

like go for it like don't what's

00:26:38

interesting about

00:26:39

but the voices

00:26:41

those people didn't change that's the

00:26:43

thing that right they were intrinsically

00:26:45

who they were when they got there it

00:26:48

just gave them an opportunity to play

00:26:50

around with equipment think about ideas

00:26:52

you know be inspired by ideas find some

00:26:55

like-minded right Souls you and Larry

00:26:57

work together for years yeah Larry one

00:27:00

of my best friends yeah

00:27:02

she shot a bunch of my movies yeah it's

00:27:04

a very funny story I worked with Larry

00:27:06

on a pilot like 15 years ago and uh and

00:27:10

there's this thing our crew refers to is

00:27:12

agree to the russos because we're like

00:27:14

we try to run like four units all the

00:27:16

time you know we're you know we're like

00:27:18

okay the Studio's giving us 30 days

00:27:19

we're gonna we're gonna get 60 days of

00:27:21

work in 30 days you know and I remember

00:27:23

Larry was like he was like halfway

00:27:25

through the shoot on this thing and I

00:27:26

was producing I wasn't even directing it

00:27:28

and I remember he turned to me at one

00:27:29

point he goes you are insane and I was

00:27:32

like Larry get a camera up top at the

00:27:34

top of this Tower we need another one

00:27:36

down here and we'll run a unit over

00:27:38

there I just need you to light all three

00:27:40

and we got to do it by like 6 30 Sun's

00:27:42

going down

00:27:54

so when you were coming out of film

00:27:57

School

00:27:58

did you know where you were going next

00:28:02

did you have a movie in mind did you

00:28:04

have a road well when I was at Art

00:28:06

Center you know it's big strength was

00:28:10

you know commercials TV commercials that

00:28:12

was like kind of what

00:28:14

music videos that was kind of it's

00:28:16

specialty just the idea that everyone

00:28:19

would go to work was a big thing you

00:28:22

know everyone in the school and art

00:28:24

center as a as a school you know they

00:28:27

Pride themselves on really creating

00:28:29

skilled artists that know how to work in

00:28:33

the world

00:28:34

and that was a big thing

00:28:36

you know you when I left school I had

00:28:39

like you know you know five or six TV

00:28:41

commercials that I had done in school

00:28:43

and they were like pro pro quality I

00:28:46

went straight to work you know I was 25

00:28:48

and I was shooting you know like like I

00:28:51

was on like working yeah and and then

00:28:54

then over the next 10 years from me

00:28:57

being from 25 to 35 and I just shot you

00:29:01

know ton of music videos and a ton of

00:29:03

commercials and really for me that was

00:29:04

that was the real school for me in a lot

00:29:08

of ways because like you know we made I

00:29:10

made every kind of shot I could think of

00:29:12

you know when I and I was a director

00:29:14

cameraman I was a DP director and so

00:29:18

when I got Dawn of the Dead they they

00:29:21

said you can't you can't shoot the movie

00:29:24

like there you can the directors don't

00:29:27

shoot too and I was like all right we

00:29:30

watched you about we we watch you uh you

00:29:32

gotta focus on right stuff and I was

00:29:34

like I ended up operating half the movie

00:29:35

anyway Matt Lee and Eddie who at the DP

00:29:37

would always

00:29:38

you should operate this shot that's good

00:29:40

yeah he's like you know he's amazing

00:29:42

exactly you because like the operator

00:29:45

would do something and I'd be like you

00:29:46

know the guy should he should I remember

00:29:48

we had this one shot where the camera

00:29:52

the guy had to run and then jump down a

00:29:55

manhole right and the operator couldn't

00:29:59

run fast back fast enough and it was

00:30:01

supposed to be a handheld shot so we did

00:30:03

this mountain where we rigged the camera

00:30:06

I had a monitor like this and the

00:30:07

cameras I'm like pointing back so I ran

00:30:10

forward and then I had to run over the

00:30:12

manhole and then they pulled this

00:30:14

plywood away from it so I wouldn't fall

00:30:16

in it and then the guy and then I and

00:30:18

the hardest part of the shot was I had

00:30:20

to tilt up because the camera was

00:30:22

tilting down right so your brain it

00:30:24

doesn't work because you're watching the

00:30:26

guy and then like he jumps down and you

00:30:29

have to go like this right so and I

00:30:31

remember and that was like that can do

00:30:33

it let Zach do it because like the

00:30:35

operator tried to do it but he kept

00:30:37

tilting down you know instead of like

00:30:40

it's like you're just you're in a circus

00:30:42

yeah but by the way we have to cut this

00:30:44

shot into the uh Pizza Film School

00:30:46

somehow yeah it's right it's right when

00:30:48

they come out of Andy's gun store and

00:30:50

they're after the explosion

00:30:52

and then so when you're doing

00:30:54

commercials was that also a film school

00:30:57

for you 100 right commercials was a huge

00:30:59

yeah you're trying everything in

00:31:00

commercials right yeah because it's

00:31:02

something interesting about working into

00:31:03

effects yeah that's when I really my

00:31:05

relationship with visual effects

00:31:06

released it's limited storytelling time

00:31:08

right so a lot of it's hyper visual

00:31:10

super you can play with different crew

00:31:12

members different kinds of equipment you

00:31:14

know every toy in the world you know

00:31:16

because sometimes the budgets are

00:31:18

exorbitant on them

00:31:20

eventually yeah that was part of

00:31:22

commercials for us too was just it's a

00:31:24

uh when I say this you know you want to

00:31:26

be a good Carpenter you got to build a

00:31:27

lot of tables you know so you want to be

00:31:29

a good filmmaker shoot shoot you know

00:31:31

and it just get better and better over

00:31:33

time television was also very useful for

00:31:35

us on that level because it's just the

00:31:36

pace was relentless you started we did

00:31:38

some Network TV early on and it's just

00:31:40

you're just shooting no it's not even

00:31:41

doing 22 Episodes in a season then we

00:31:43

had two other shows that also had huge

00:31:46

orders so you're get to this point where

00:31:48

you're like delivering like 40 episodes

00:31:49

of a year and the scene work is insane

00:31:52

so like time yeah you start to get the

00:31:54

Alchemy of the scene work you know the

00:31:57

literal

00:31:59

you'll know immediately after you know

00:32:02

20 episodes like you know like even the

00:32:05

even from moment to moment like nope

00:32:07

that's not working that's not gonna

00:32:08

that's not a thing yep oh you're doing

00:32:10

it's not gonna work yeah come on we got

00:32:12

it yeah we gotta I need this you know

00:32:14

this because you know it's kind of an

00:32:17

interesting thing also is like you know

00:32:18

how when it's moment to moment you know

00:32:20

and the moments have to build and

00:32:21

everything has to like this has to

00:32:23

inform this has performed this and no

00:32:25

one's really paying attention to it

00:32:26

except for

00:32:27

you know the director is really the one

00:32:30

who should be understanding all of it

00:32:33

like that yeah and I think that that I

00:32:35

mean I can't imagine I mean it's amazing

00:32:37

to think like okay so it's 21 episodes

00:32:39

of the half hour was an hour or a half

00:32:41

hour we were doing half hours yeah like

00:32:45

you know yeah

00:32:46

I don't know 10 hours right 10 hours of

00:32:49

content you know it's insane yeah it's

00:32:51

an insane amount of you know and that's

00:32:54

what we learned at that time too that

00:32:56

like the real function of a director was

00:32:58

to hold all of the choices in your head

00:33:01

right that was sort of the more that you

00:33:03

could hold in your head the better you

00:33:04

got at understanding how to because

00:33:06

you're shooting out of order you're

00:33:07

shooting very quickly half hour episode

00:33:09

we got five days to do it in maybe six

00:33:12

you know you're shooting eight pages a

00:33:14

day we had this episode we did with Jack

00:33:16

blackware you know he's in the whole

00:33:17

episode but he had one day available

00:33:20

so for the essay we conjugate conjugate

00:33:24

conjugal visit

00:33:28

lame okay stick and move stick and move

00:33:31

right so we had a shoot with a double

00:33:33

and you know everything had to be

00:33:35

conceived and constructed in a way that

00:33:37

you know worked when we didn't have Jack

00:33:39

we had to know we jump from set to set

00:33:41

to set with him we'd shoot just his

00:33:43

close-ups maybe get one wide shot move

00:33:45

on go to the next set and then we gotta

00:33:47

go back through and cover the whole

00:33:48

thing over a double you know and I

00:33:52

realized like oh that's the and you have

00:33:54

to hold all this in your head and the

00:33:56

more I held it in my head the better I

00:33:57

got at doing it you know uh and so you

00:34:00

know we're this this will lead I think

00:34:02

to script you know let me talk a little

00:34:04

bit about script like script for us is

00:34:06

the Bible right we spend a lot of time

00:34:09

on the script almost all of our prep and

00:34:11

in fact to the point where you know the

00:34:13

ad starts knocking on the door with us

00:34:14

and the writer's going you guys got to

00:34:16

come out and start to start talking to

00:34:17

people about what you know we're like

00:34:18

it's in the script almost you know but

00:34:21

it's that's really that's critical it's

00:34:23

right under the door

00:34:25

that you communicate it's exactly to the

00:34:28

thousands of people who have to read

00:34:30

that script and know what to do every

00:34:31

day exactly what's in there and we will

00:34:33

put notes in that tell you know hair and

00:34:36

makeup what we're looking for and you

00:34:37

know so we we try to make sure that the

00:34:39

plan is really really solid so we can

00:34:42

Chuck it does that

00:34:44

evolve say you give it to me and I'm the

00:34:47

studio yeah does the does that version

00:34:50

of the script not have as much specific

00:34:53

notes no we tailor it for every stage of

00:34:56

the process exactly it's a great

00:34:57

question no at that point it's written

00:34:59

to be a compelling read to convince you

00:35:02

know whoever needs to be convinced the

00:35:03

green light it yeah

00:35:05

amount of money

00:35:09

it says like makeup artists make sure

00:35:11

there's stuffy dirt on them

00:35:14

should be sweaty should be sweaty it's a

00:35:17

weird sentence but it's it's true like

00:35:20

you focus all of your energy when you

00:35:22

start pure land storytelling we have a

00:35:23

codified process that we created sure

00:35:25

working with the same two writers

00:35:28

through all of our Marvel work so

00:35:30

Christopher Mark Steve mcfeely and that

00:35:33

codified process was made up of a lot of

00:35:35

stuff we'd learned in television using a

00:35:37

writer's room and using a bunch of

00:35:39

creative minds sitting together we

00:35:40

believe in this thing called The

00:35:42

Mastermind Principle which says the two

00:35:43

minds are not doubly better than one

00:35:45

they're exponentially better so we'd be

00:35:47

you know we're big Believers in best

00:35:48

idea wins and you know we have to be

00:35:51

available because we have to be

00:35:52

available to each other so we have to be

00:35:54

available to ideas coming from other

00:35:56

people so that process of working on a

00:35:59

story so say Kevin feige books his head

00:36:02

in room says we need Civil War we go

00:36:03

okay great

00:36:05

when do we have till you got a year all

00:36:07

right we better work fast you know and

00:36:10

now we get our codified process out okay

00:36:12

let's iterate for two or three weeks

00:36:15

we're going to talk about what the

00:36:16

potential stories are then we're going

00:36:18

to start to put something down on a

00:36:20

piece of paper it's three pages long

00:36:21

right but it's it's the story right yeah

00:36:25

page one is act one page two is act two

00:36:27

page three exactly this is what where it

00:36:30

starts is what happens in the middle

00:36:31

this is what happens at the end this

00:36:32

character dies at the end we understand

00:36:34

and agree on that we can get Kevin in

00:36:36

and he goes okay great I like that then

00:36:39

we move to the next phase you know uh so

00:36:42

for us it's very disciplined when you

00:36:45

start on a script with something the

00:36:46

scale of Justice League are you starting

00:36:48

from artwork Justice League was Chris

00:36:52

and I cristerio and I

00:36:54

um after Batman versus Superman we had

00:36:56

we had talked about what Justice League

00:36:59

would be we kind of you know it's called

00:37:01

dawn of Justice right so and the studio

00:37:04

was very they wanted

00:37:07

Justice League what was where we were

00:37:09

going and so so you knew you had the

00:37:11

connective tissue we always had our eye

00:37:13

on the Justice League kind of concept

00:37:15

you know as we were as we were working

00:37:16

and so I I believe we had an outline for

00:37:22

Justice League

00:37:23

that we just kind of generated while we

00:37:26

were writing Batman versus Superman just

00:37:27

kind of like over to the side because we

00:37:29

wanted to be sure we were supporting

00:37:31

this long look with with what we were

00:37:33

writing

00:37:34

um for Batman versus Superman and you

00:37:36

know there's all this weirdness in

00:37:37

Batman versus Superman anyway that

00:37:39

eventually would make its way into

00:37:41

Justice League that I was really adamant

00:37:44

about you know post-apocalyptic or any

00:37:46

of that stuff you know or I was really

00:37:48

like I really want to do this

00:37:50

when Dark Side destroys Earth

00:37:52

we're gonna have 10 years of no Earth so

00:37:55

we should figure out what Batman's doing

00:37:58

yeah you know in the road warrior earth

00:38:01

like what is like what is Batman and

00:38:02

road warrior so that was kind of like a

00:38:05

big thing to me that was the thing I

00:38:06

really wanted to get to and so Chris and

00:38:09

I

00:38:10

worked really diligently and then the to

00:38:15

have a document that we and it was not

00:38:17

it wasn't a secret document but it was

00:38:19

kind of Our Own

00:38:20

you know there was a lot of it that we

00:38:22

constantly were developing and then

00:38:24

right near the end of finishing Batman

00:38:26

versus Superman when I was kind of like

00:38:28

the editing responsibilities it kind of

00:38:30

you know just diminished a little bit we

00:38:32

really started working you know on

00:38:35

Justice League and it was a and Chris is

00:38:37

a really

00:38:38

incredible writer and he's very

00:38:42

beautifully manic in his style

00:38:45

I remember he had like um

00:38:47

on a diet coke a lot of Post-it notes

00:38:50

like the Post-it notes but they were in

00:38:52

this massive baggie it looked like

00:38:54

looked like

00:38:55

you look like a drug dealer like

00:38:58

you know like a kilo of cocaine or

00:39:01

something like in his bag he pulled it

00:39:02

out and I was like what is that he's

00:39:04

like oh it's the Post-it notes and then

00:39:05

he started to try to put him back up

00:39:07

yeah so yeah so it was very and it's all

00:39:09

like you know Yates quotes and like it's

00:39:12

all oh wow cooly pizzara like none of it

00:39:14

like you can't look at the Post-it notes

00:39:16

and go like oh cool this is a note for

00:39:19

the first act like a line of dialogue

00:39:21

this goes first it's completely like I

00:39:25

was I I I don't even know what this is

00:39:27

amazing like this someone take a make a

00:39:30

book out of this because forget the

00:39:32

movie and it's thematics and it's things

00:39:34

that are relevant to yeah it's all about

00:39:36

insane yeah each Post-It note is

00:39:38

incredibly interesting like there's no

00:39:41

like there's no throwaway no there's no

00:39:42

posting note that just says like don't

00:39:44

forget to this that's every single one

00:39:47

of them I'd be like whenever you get

00:39:48

stuck you can just turn the wall kind of

00:39:51

what it is it kind of like it becomes

00:39:52

this really

00:39:53

is source of like insane inspiration but

00:39:56

all of it's thematic to the thing we're

00:39:58

working on so we're the it's a bizarre

00:40:00

process I love it but you know it's not

00:40:02

and when I write

00:40:04

I don't use that process at all like I I

00:40:07

have much I have a similar process to

00:40:10

you guys I have three other writers I

00:40:11

write with very specific very like note

00:40:14

cardi Berry in a room honestly

00:40:18

interesting idea oh that could be the

00:40:20

end of act one kind of put that on a

00:40:22

card and stick it here two days later

00:40:24

nope that's the midpoint actually let's

00:40:26

move it to the midpoint because we need

00:40:28

more setup like suddenly like that idea

00:40:29

that everybody loved just keeps getting

00:40:31

pushed over and then it just falls falls

00:40:34

off the thing and I'm like okay but look

00:40:36

what else it gave us it gave us all this

00:40:38

other cool stuff so yeah I know I and

00:40:40

then

00:40:41

you know and and so the script for

00:40:42

Justice League

00:40:44

did evolve out of out of that now I'll

00:40:48

be honest that when the script what

00:40:50

happened with Justice League is we had a

00:40:52

very

00:40:53

the original script was much darker and

00:40:56

weirder

00:40:57

and then when Batman vs the Superman

00:40:59

came out and the studio was like it's

00:41:01

not funny enough people funnier movies

00:41:03

they want funny stuff in it we did we

00:41:06

did go back and do a big kind of

00:41:10

lightened the movie overall

00:41:12

[Laughter]

00:41:20

deadly stock

00:41:22

speak to us like children and I would

00:41:25

say that

00:41:26

Justice League my kind of Justice League

00:41:29

is a sort of is in between

00:41:32

that that we I always preserved some of

00:41:35

the more intense stuff that I shot

00:41:38

anyway yeah I thought they would in

00:41:41

retrospect they would maybe want making

00:41:44

sure I of course had what was on the

00:41:45

page but we had this other script I

00:41:48

think in the original script Lois and

00:41:50

Batman got together you know briefly and

00:41:53

there's like this whole yeah there was

00:41:55

this whole other thing that everyone was

00:41:57

like oh my God you can't do that you

00:41:59

know so we were we were by the way I

00:42:01

love that I wish you did do that yeah

00:42:03

because Superman was dead I was like you

00:42:05

know and Louis is a pretty amazing

00:42:06

person yeah so like but it also brings

00:42:08

her into the story in a way it's complex

00:42:10

she's surprising her part in Justice

00:42:13

League is really we had written it yeah

00:42:15

you know especially since I had Amy and

00:42:16

Amy's like a genius I really felt like

00:42:20

we should lean on Amy you know because

00:42:22

she's just a great actress and yeah I

00:42:24

think like a force of Nature and so you

00:42:28

know and I just thought it really felt

00:42:30

like um and then I loved the idea of

00:42:31

like setting up this sort of concept you

00:42:34

know it's sort of like when you're you

00:42:36

know in the in a movie like where the

00:42:38

husband goes off to war and he's dead

00:42:40

and

00:42:41

the wife moves on and then the husband

00:42:43

appears yeah you know like I'm not dead

00:42:45

yeah I'm fine how do you deal with that

00:42:47

yeah how do you deal with that and that

00:42:49

was kind of what's emotional you're

00:42:50

super into that concept you know that oh

00:42:52

no Superman can be brought back to life

00:42:58

nice

00:43:08

so now what happens with with this and

00:43:11

it and it was that Lois was like I I'm

00:43:14

still in love with Superman you were

00:43:15

kind of a

00:43:17

thing but then at that point Batman had

00:43:19

already fallen in love with Lois and was

00:43:20

like okay now I'm like it's brilliant I

00:43:22

want to see them

00:43:23

one day that's super cool but no but but

00:43:26

so

00:43:27

we had so we so we had done the changes

00:43:29

for

00:43:30

the studio and we'd you know and I mean

00:43:33

like I'll be frank Chris and I are not

00:43:35

the funniest guys in the world we're not

00:43:37

like you know we're not like awesome

00:43:38

joke writers I don't know I'm laughing

00:43:41

I'm laughing about listening to you I'll

00:43:43

say that but yeah that's 100 I'm just

00:43:46

100 honest about that and we had Ezra

00:43:48

and Ezra's pretty right he's pretty

00:43:50

funny he's kind of like that was kind of

00:43:52

his his role you know to be the you know

00:43:56

the Flash and kind of be young and kind

00:43:57

of be be the comic relief

00:44:00

not quite understanding you know and

00:44:02

kind of like in awe of Batman and

00:44:04

Superman

00:44:07

Barry Allen

00:44:09

Bruce Wayne

00:44:10

you said that like it explains why

00:44:12

there's a total stranger in my place

00:44:15

sitting in the dark and my second

00:44:16

favorite chair any and he's and he did a

00:44:19

great job and was and that part was

00:44:21

great but like but I do think that the

00:44:23

process

00:44:24

and it's just a classic Studio Hollywood

00:44:27

process you know in their defense they

00:44:30

only can react to what they react to you

00:44:32

know which is a great point about

00:44:34

reacting it's an interesting thing to

00:44:36

say because we talk about this all the

00:44:37

time artists lead Innovation and

00:44:40

corporations follow it right and so a

00:44:42

corporation coming in and saying it's

00:44:44

not funny enough

00:44:45

it's going to be behind the curve of

00:44:47

wherever this is heading audiences want

00:44:50

to be surprised right audiences don't

00:44:52

want the same thing they had last week

00:44:53

you give them chocolate ice cream every

00:44:56

day for a week if I like day six they're

00:44:58

gonna throw it back in your face and say

00:44:59

we've had enough of this and you

00:45:01

know it's exactly as you say

00:45:03

they wanted a funny movie two years ago

00:45:06

yeah you know right hey just to to be

00:45:10

that

00:45:11

glacial in your movement you're not

00:45:14

gonna they were on board with the

00:45:16

concept and the vision and the direction

00:45:17

you were going and now they want to see

00:45:19

the completion of that right yeah rather

00:45:21

than oh let's retrofit it or let's try

00:45:23

to restructure it and you know but it's

00:45:25

it also that point of view is like we

00:45:27

talk about too is like that's being

00:45:29

reactive to what's currently happening

00:45:31

out there and like the big wins to be

00:45:34

had in storytelling and movie making is

00:45:37

when you're bringing something to the

00:45:38

table that surprises people right that's

00:45:41

that's where the big one I mean that's

00:45:42

where that's why I I think where We've

00:45:45

Ended up with I think right now we're in

00:45:48

a really golden age of TV in the sense

00:45:51

that

00:45:52

like TV shows are much better at 100 at

00:45:57

being like showing you something not

00:45:59

only that you've never seen before or

00:46:02

catching you off balance or like making

00:46:05

a turn that you didn't see coming you

00:46:07

know they're riskier they're way riskier

00:46:09

and way kind of like like Euphoria for

00:46:13

instance I was watching and the show is

00:46:15

just it's unbelievable unbelievable like

00:46:17

that show shouldn't exist it's so good

00:46:19

yeah you know and and I just think

00:46:21

that's the kind of thing like I watch

00:46:22

that show and I go this

00:46:23

this movie would never get made yeah

00:46:27

by the way it would have because of the

00:46:31

sort of corrupt environment that exists

00:46:34

around the release of films by that I

00:46:37

mean or toxic environment of like box

00:46:40

office pundits and all the horseshit

00:46:42

that goes into a release of a movie that

00:46:44

if something doesn't hit a predetermined

00:46:46

Target by I don't know who uh you know

00:46:48

then it didn't work it didn't open and

00:46:51

now it's going to struggle and it has a

00:46:53

different path it has to follow people

00:46:55

if it were a movie

00:46:58

one twentieth of the people you would

00:47:01

have seen it as a film versus a show

00:47:03

maybe maybe even yeah

00:47:05

you can imagine squid game coming here

00:47:09

as a movie would be it's Art House yeah

00:47:12

maybe 100 no one and now it's like

00:47:16

hundreds of millions of people and like

00:47:19

because it's exactly Euphoria and and

00:47:21

Squid game taking you to a place you

00:47:24

just not there's no way you have any

00:47:27

idea like where you're going or what's

00:47:28

happening and that's what I think that

00:47:30

people that's really that's what they

00:47:32

want and what's compelling about that

00:47:33

too is that like it's interesting the

00:47:35

format

00:47:36

your cut is four hours long right The

00:47:39

Ant and I say this all the time we grew

00:47:41

up on movies we love movies we love the

00:47:44

movie experience doesn't mean that my

00:47:46

kids have to love the movie experience

00:47:48

the movie going experience they don't

00:47:49

have to love watching things in a

00:47:51

theater they have very different uh um

00:47:53

relationship to technology than I did as

00:47:55

a kid they see things in a lot of

00:47:57

different ways what's compelling about

00:47:59

and I think why are you saying TVs in

00:48:00

the golden age is that it is disrupting

00:48:02

from a format standpoint it's 10 hours

00:48:05

of content it's eight hours of content

00:48:07

you get different emotional impact

00:48:10

killing a character five hours into a 10

00:48:12

hour story because you've spent

00:48:15

temporarily you've just spent five hours

00:48:17

with that character versus an hour it's

00:48:19

just different right like so you've

00:48:21

assigned more of your time you have more

00:48:24

investment and when that character goes

00:48:26

you feel it because of that investment

00:48:28

there's a lot of things happening and

00:48:30

bubbling that's like saying artists lead

00:48:32

Innovation some people talk about the

00:48:34

length of the film you go yeah but you

00:48:36

know what that it demanded it it

00:48:38

demanded it because you're working in a

00:48:40

different format you're trying to expand

00:48:43

a very traditional structure into

00:48:46

something more Innovative and compelling

00:48:48

because you have all these characters

00:48:49

it's funny because we have the

00:48:51

even with Justice League you know we

00:48:53

have we did like an IMAX there's an IMAX

00:48:56

version not many people have seen but it

00:48:59

there's an IMX version and that has like

00:49:01

a classic intermission you know I just

00:49:03

built it with the classic intermission

00:49:05

because I was like this movie is four

00:49:06

hours long

00:49:07

you know let's just do a real

00:49:08

intermission you know and you did it

00:49:11

stretch your legs go buy your popcorn

00:49:12

it's like 15 minutes and it's just like

00:49:14

you know there's this cool Suite in the

00:49:15

center it just plays for 15 minutes and

00:49:18

you know it's it's just like a really

00:49:21

there is something really

00:49:24

um I don't know like when you see it in

00:49:26

that format you're like okay I get that

00:49:28

like that like it's eventized I'm here

00:49:31

for like but at home you know putting an

00:49:35

intermission in a movie this far as long

00:49:37

as like you could pause the movie or

00:49:38

anywhere you want right that's not right

00:49:39

that's not like you know that's just me

00:49:41

being so when we did it

00:49:43

you know

00:49:45

in the in the chaptered version at home

00:49:47

I was like you know what don't don't do

00:49:51

it let's not have the intermission right

00:49:52

this version yeah because it just

00:49:55

plus it has because it's a chaptered

00:49:57

movie you can always just stop it at any

00:49:58

of the chapters if you wanted to so that

00:50:00

was the way I thought about it

00:50:02

originally we had talked about doing it

00:50:04

as a it was going to be six parts

00:50:07

released separately

00:50:09

but then there was like some you know

00:50:12

legal rules about like what you could do

00:50:14

I thought it was a TV cast contracts and

00:50:17

all that stuff yeah pay everyone like

00:50:19

six times and they're like ah don't do

00:50:21

that yeah yeah right okay but it could

00:50:24

have fit that format for sure yeah for

00:50:26

sure the visual components of your

00:50:28

movies are so exhilarating that you know

00:50:30

they get it gets a lot of attention

00:50:32

right will you talk a little bit about

00:50:34

how you approach your process with

00:50:36

actors introducing them to the story

00:50:38

what you're trying to do yeah one of

00:50:40

like the actors that I I had just a

00:50:43

great experience working with was when I

00:50:45

first worked with Billy crudup on um

00:50:47

Watchmen and I learned a lot from him

00:50:50

just about

00:50:52

you know his process I always drilled

00:50:54

down you know I was always like

00:50:56

asking them about every little detail

00:50:58

and about like the way he approaches

00:51:01

scene work and all that because I really

00:51:03

respected like I just when I would watch

00:51:06

the way that he was really letting the

00:51:09

material like shape his performance in a

00:51:11

really beautiful way it really made me

00:51:14

like I was really impressed by it and so

00:51:16

I really you know I had done it a couple

00:51:18

times up to that point but everything I

00:51:21

had done was pretty stylized I mean

00:51:23

Sarah Paulie is also an amazing actress

00:51:26

and yeah I got a lot from her and that

00:51:27

was like my first movie but I felt like

00:51:31

um so with Billy you know it was this

00:51:33

process of like I had a pretty strict

00:51:37

um sort of view it goes back to sort of

00:51:39

like the way I draw and the way like you

00:51:41

know this is the blocking and like

00:51:43

don't stand over there stand there like

00:51:45

sit in this chair to this I drew you

00:51:47

kind of going like this right you know

00:51:50

when you get to this yeah can you do

00:51:52

that you know like

00:51:54

sort of this is a look of inquisitation

00:51:56

you're like you're wondering yeah see

00:51:58

what I'm doing

00:52:00

um so I and I think the process was

00:52:03

sort of allowing me to let go of and let

00:52:06

the actors live in it a little bit more

00:52:09

and I and that process for me has been

00:52:12

it's been liberating a lot of in a lot

00:52:14

of ways from

00:52:15

sort of the way I see it originally you

00:52:17

know I and I know that you know

00:52:20

there is a there's a very fine line

00:52:22

between you know letting the releasing

00:52:26

it completely and maybe creating chaos

00:52:28

and and letting within the material the

00:52:34

actors make it better you know and I

00:52:36

think that that that that that process

00:52:38

for me has been like one of trust and so

00:52:40

now at this point I do let and I do have

00:52:44

a lot of um

00:52:46

uh Joe I take a lot of joy in having the

00:52:49

actors kind of make the thing their own

00:52:51

and that process I find really really

00:52:54

fun and and kind of

00:52:56

I don't rehearse necessarily as much I I

00:53:00

used to rehearse a lot and then I kind

00:53:03

of have come to this

00:53:04

um idea about rehearsing where

00:53:07

I kind of feel like and this is the

00:53:08

thing I that Billy and I used to talk

00:53:10

about like he'd say like you know when

00:53:11

you do a play right you get four weeks

00:53:14

into rehearsals you think it's the worst

00:53:16

thing in the world right because you you

00:53:18

just are saying the words right and

00:53:20

you've got them but they're not yours

00:53:23

100 so you're just saying these words

00:53:24

they don't want to mean anymore you know

00:53:26

you basically rehearsed it to death

00:53:29

right and he goes but then the thing

00:53:31

happens where

00:53:32

you come in one day and you say the

00:53:34

words and you don't know that they're

00:53:38

not yours right like you just you said

00:53:40

something to me and I said something

00:53:41

back and it happened to be what was

00:53:43

written down like I didn't know you know

00:53:45

what I mean I don't it's just a natural

00:53:47

like it's it's living in your subject

00:53:49

it's almost that zip I'm just

00:53:51

saying what I thought I would say and I

00:53:53

I'm like that's beautiful that's amazing

00:53:55

and I've never directed theater so I

00:53:57

thought like wow and he goes and the

00:53:59

problem is like in a on a movie set or

00:54:02

in movie rehearsals we normally don't

00:54:04

have the time

00:54:06

to get that comfortable with the script

00:54:09

you know like to have it just be what I

00:54:12

think so he goes the other time where I

00:54:14

feel that is like maybe after the fifth

00:54:17

time I've read the when I once I've just

00:54:20

learned the words you know and they

00:54:22

still

00:54:23

mean something to me the emotionally

00:54:26

like I'm saying them and I'm connect I'm

00:54:29

listening to the other actor and then

00:54:30

I'm what I'm saying back I'm hearing

00:54:34

myself say

00:54:36

and watching it land on them and so like

00:54:38

all of it is like now it's tennis and

00:54:41

it's like fresh you know and and I and I

00:54:43

don't know what I'm going to do and it's

00:54:45

it's really amazing so I've kind of

00:54:47

adopted that style a little bit you know

00:54:49

because I felt it it's worked so well is

00:54:52

this kind of you know make sure everyone

00:54:54

has has it

00:54:56

but don't beat it to death you know

00:54:59

that's that's kind of the way I I work

00:55:02

the scenes now it's it's just that

00:55:04

moment where you pass where like it's

00:55:06

you're making a noise that sounds like a

00:55:09

word but you don't know what it is and

00:55:11

this is a confidence and experience that

00:55:13

sort of takes it the artwork from a

00:55:16

predetermined execution right to more of

00:55:19

an example of tone and you know space

00:55:23

and so you're allowing now the actors to

00:55:26

sort of live in that tone in that space

00:55:28

that was in your head yeah with the hope

00:55:30

that they know the character right you

00:55:33

have to hold the whole thing right in

00:55:35

your in your head at the same time all

00:55:37

of it all everything that everyone

00:55:38

thinks like where you're going where

00:55:41

you've been all that you have it

00:55:43

so you hope that in the best case that

00:55:47

the actor who's

00:55:49

coming in that moment they know their

00:55:51

guy the little thing they do that makes

00:55:53

it better that look that

00:55:56

pause that

00:55:58

understanding of what the other guy's

00:56:00

saying

00:56:01

is better than

00:56:03

I would have thought you know that's

00:56:06

that's when for me it's like well you

00:56:08

get the three-dimensional living

00:56:09

breathing

00:56:11

actor in their lines can go away because

00:56:13

they're doing it with a look now or

00:56:15

entire moments are conveyed or you know

00:56:18

you had a whole scene and all you needed

00:56:20

was somebody who has that moment right

00:56:22

now the whole scene's worthless because

00:56:24

you just really need it yeah yeah uh and

00:56:29

that's that's sort of the magic of that

00:56:30

I mean we we came from theater oh when

00:56:34

we were younger more specifically

00:56:35

experimental theater we're a little more

00:56:38

um adventurous sort of in our form and

00:56:41

structure when we started making movies

00:56:43

but our process with actors has been

00:56:46

the same throughout we don't put marks

00:56:49

on the ground our rehearsals are fairly

00:56:51

quick because we don't want to burn them

00:56:52

out we're not doing it you know it's

00:56:54

generally like don't spend any energy

00:56:55

don't spend any emotion uh let's just

00:56:58

see where you want to move you know and

00:57:01

then we want to photograph you exactly

00:57:03

yeah exactly it's more about we want to

00:57:05

capture your behavior they go away we

00:57:07

say the DP they're going to be in this

00:57:09

general area we might suggest to them

00:57:11

that they sit at this point we don't

00:57:13

want to do that then because we don't

00:57:15

want to get sucked into like a 20 minute

00:57:17

conversation so I want you to light over

00:57:19

here too we just shape it generally

00:57:21

and then when we turn the cameras on

00:57:23

that's why we don't shut them off is we

00:57:25

just start trapping people in the moment

00:57:27

and we make them you know it's like

00:57:29

they're out on the high wire now we're

00:57:30

not going to let them down until we get

00:57:32

to the end and that's you know we don't

00:57:34

get out of our chairs either it's really

00:57:36

interesting like we don't like to engage

00:57:38

in dialogue while we're shooting

00:57:41

that's for before or after you know but

00:57:44

if you start spending 10 minutes for us

00:57:46

we start spending 10 minutes talking to

00:57:47

an actor now they have to process that

00:57:49

for like four or five ticks you know if

00:57:52

you give them 10 minutes of notes you're

00:57:54

not going to see that in the next thing

00:57:56

they do you'll see that maybe the next

00:57:58

five takes that they do you know or

00:58:00

you're going to overwhelm them and

00:58:01

they're going to be out of it for two or

00:58:02

three takes or you know so our process

00:58:04

gets really specific but it tends to be

00:58:06

one about like shouting things you know

00:58:09

uh very simple next time uh speed it up

00:58:11

in the middle and you know uh we want

00:58:14

you to turn and uh and look at them two

00:58:17

lines earlier uh go you know we just

00:58:19

kind of keep it simple and yeah and now

00:58:22

they just have two things they have to

00:58:23

think about okay great now try this one

00:58:26

angrier the whole time you're really

00:58:27

upset just let the anger show okay on

00:58:29

this one suppress the anger play it play

00:58:32

it like you're hiding it from them and

00:58:34

then we try to layer it I think it's

00:58:35

more of from our experimental roots of

00:58:37

like

00:58:38

try things you know let's see where it

00:58:41

goes maybe we'll surprise ourselves

00:58:42

maybe they'll surprise us and we'll wind

00:58:45

up with some Kismet or something Sublime

00:58:47

you know that's in between the lines

00:58:51

um and so the script for us no matter

00:58:52

how hard we work on it actually just

00:58:54

becomes like

00:58:56

you know a really good plan that can

00:58:58

then once you get all the pieces in we

00:59:00

can start throwing out yeah

00:59:02

like how

00:59:04

on the day with them

00:59:06

where are the pieces the comedy Roots

00:59:08

led us to improvs We tend to use that

00:59:10

depending on who the actress some people

00:59:12

are very good at it others are terrible

00:59:13

and even the best ones maybe five or ten

00:59:16

percent of it is usable you know and a

00:59:19

lot of times you improvise for two or

00:59:21

three takes

00:59:22

then we'll stop if there's too much

00:59:24

improv going on we'll go okay come on

00:59:26

over here we get the script you know

00:59:27

we'll write the words again right oh

00:59:29

write it no no we'll go that thing you

00:59:31

said was really funny I wish you had

00:59:33

said it in the take where he said this

00:59:34

so let's just create a script that's

00:59:37

taking the best things you guys are

00:59:39

doing oh and there's a very funny gag

00:59:41

here had you done this together and then

00:59:43

we'll write it rehearse it again and

00:59:45

then they'll go very few actors you do

00:59:48

that with though but Downy Pratt you

00:59:50

know there's a couple key actors yeah I

00:59:53

think it's important though to point out

00:59:54

it's not you know there are there are

00:59:56

amazing actors and favorite performers

00:59:59

from like every point on the Spectrum

01:00:01

some actors are very mechanical you know

01:00:03

they want to know exactly when

01:00:04

somebody's going to pick up a glass I

01:00:06

want you know it's it's very they don't

01:00:07

pick up the thickness of that moment but

01:00:09

there's some of your favorite actors

01:00:10

you've ever seen on camera you know so

01:00:12

you can get to it from different ways it

01:00:13

just depends I remember I was doing I

01:00:15

was doing a I did a commercial with

01:00:16

Harrison Ford right yeah and Harrison

01:00:19

was like it was a It was a commercial

01:00:21

for lunche Libra which is a Italian or

01:00:24

Italian car I think Italian I was

01:00:26

operating and I was the VPN the director

01:00:28

so

01:00:30

I was with him and he literally goes

01:00:33

what it's a 35 mil I go yeah he goes

01:00:36

okay so this should be so this will be

01:00:38

I'm just going to keep this in the

01:00:39

bottom of frame like this and then when

01:00:41

I put it down I'll put it over here

01:00:42

which is still in I think right there

01:00:44

it's the top and I'm like Jesus Christ

01:00:46

yeah like he's an animal you know like

01:00:49

it's like legitimately like an animal

01:00:51

and I was like that's awesome it was a

01:00:53

car commercial so we had to do all the

01:00:54

the air conditioner and you know we

01:00:56

wanted to show the bits of the car and

01:00:58

he was just like and I've done a million

01:01:01

car commercials I never had an actor do

01:01:02

this because I'm operating I'm behind

01:01:04

him

01:01:05

and he'd go like he goes back let's do

01:01:08

this quick and he goes how about this

01:01:10

like all right I'm going to the radio in

01:01:13

three two one I'm dialing I'm gonna go

01:01:16

for the volume and volume and now I'm

01:01:20

gonna go to the air conditioner in three

01:01:23

two air conditioner and I'm like you

01:01:25

know so it's like I was like we got it I

01:01:28

hope you have that that daily that has

01:01:30

all that in it it was just amazing holy

01:01:34

like I've been with a million yeah

01:01:35

hand actors who never do that who don't

01:01:38

help me and it's just like it was really

01:01:39

cool I was like Wow someone understands

01:01:41

like the camera like someone gets the

01:01:44

the this relationship you know too like

01:01:47

I'm clearly being photographed this is

01:01:49

how

01:01:50

the world is different now those actors

01:01:52

blow our minds too it's amazing like we

01:01:54

always say like especially

01:01:56

uh you know actor like what you're

01:01:58

describing with Harrison like some

01:01:59

actors who have directing experience

01:02:01

will also be very Savvy on that level or

01:02:03

spatial awareness yeah yeah oh you don't

01:02:06

want me to do that yeah like you know

01:02:07

like people who haven't like or you know

01:02:10

who have gotten

01:02:11

and then they're also amazing actors

01:02:15

that have gone through their career with

01:02:16

the camera chasing them right yeah yeah

01:02:18

there's a lot of guys you know who like

01:02:20

who get out of a chair like this you

01:02:23

know and I'm like yeah that's not how

01:02:26

you get out of a movie

01:02:31

yeah but there are really things

01:02:34

like just yeah there are some actors who

01:02:38

again um some some of them are among the

01:02:40

best actors though if you if you make

01:02:42

them too aware of what's happening on a

01:02:44

technical level you'll just see them

01:02:46

close down because yeah that's what I

01:02:49

mean it's like a lot of guys are just

01:02:50

like

01:02:51

you can't they're like you know it's

01:02:53

like I not for everybody but for a lot

01:02:56

of the actors I do the hands

01:02:58

the close-ups of the hand I just do it

01:03:00

myself because many times and I'll and

01:03:02

you know like in in a lot of times in my

01:03:05

movies they're very gigantic close-ups

01:03:08

crazy and like really difficult

01:03:12

shots you know right and like Alex

01:03:14

sometimes I'm operating and doing the

01:03:16

and doing it because I know like I can

01:03:18

turn the thing and get into the focal

01:03:20

plane that you needed that which is

01:03:22

impossible right yeah yeah or you can

01:03:24

spend 10 minutes trying to talk somebody

01:03:25

yeah and be like okay that's okay

01:03:35

I'll just be like okay great yeah see ya

01:03:38

like tomorrow I'll just give me your can

01:03:40

I have the glove

01:03:42

you know it's like I had like afflecks

01:03:45

they had to make like the soup you know

01:03:47

it's a giant but like so I make me a

01:03:49

little cuff in the suit arm you know and

01:03:52

then cut it off yeah I own so I can like

01:03:55

pick up things

01:04:02

thank you Wilfred I don't mention it

01:04:08

oh yeah

01:04:09

[Music]

01:04:10

oh yeah

Description:

In this episode of Pizza Film School, the Russo Brothers sit down with DC Extended Universe icon, Zack Snyder, to discuss the process of directing superhero films and Zack Snyder’s Justice League. #PizzaFilmSchool ►► Subscribe for more: https://www.youtube.com/c/agboyoutube?sub_confirmation=1 FOLLOW ON SOCIAL: Instagram: @AGBOfilms @TheRussoBrothers TikTok: @AGBOfilms #PizzaFilmSchool Chapters 00:00 - Intro 01:30 - Zack's Origin Story 06:08 - Art Center 07:52 - Communicating Vision 09:47 - Creating Consistency 13:23 - The Russo's Film Process 16:25 - Zack's Process 17:50 - Sequencing the Film 19:13 - Relationship with Camera Operators 24:17 - Film School 29:17 - Dawn of the Dead 30:53 - Directing Commercials & TV 34:02 - Writing Scripts 36:50 - Writing Justice League 44:32 - Reacting vs Innovating 45:43 - The Golden Age of TV 47:34 - Breaking Traditional Norms in Film 50:28 - Working with Actors 56:32 - How Theater Effects Filmmaking 1:00:15 - Harrison Ford Story 1:01:54 - Actors Helping Directors ABOUT THE SHOW: Created and hosted by Anthony and Joe Russo, Pizza Film School is a video podcast that demystifies the filmmaking process and spreads some love to the Russo Brothers’ favorite films, filmmakers, and local pizzerias. Class is in session with the Russos as they dive deep behind-the-scenes with some of the industry’s top filmmakers, all while enjoying a slice or two of pizza. An AGBO Production. Season I focused on the craft of screenwriting, Season II picks up right where we left off, but this time, it’s all about the art of directing. Also new this season, both the pizza tasting and the discussions are recorded in person at the AGBO headquarters in downtown Los Angeles. ABOUT THE EPISODE: Zack Snyder’s Justice League is available to watch on HBO Max, Apple TV, YouTube, Redbox, Prime Video, Vudu, and Google Play. Zack Snyder is an American film director, producer, screenwriter, and cinematographer. He made his feature film debut in 2004 with Dawn of the Dead, a remake of the 1978 horror film of the same name. Since, Snyder has directed a number of comic book and superhero films from 300 to Man of Steel. This episode focuses on Zack Snyder’s Justice League, Snyder’s director’s cut of the 2017 film. ABOUT AGBO: AGBO is an independent studio focused on developing and producing intellectual property universes spanning film, TV, audio, publishing, and gaming. Founded in 2017 by award-winning and record-breaking directors Anthony and Joe Russo, along with producer Mike Larocca, AGBO’s mission is to innovate and advance the next generation of storytelling to entertain and inspire worldwide audiences. AGBO’s “Gozie Agbo” banner is geared toward championing exciting visionaries in independent film. AGBO is based in Los Angeles.

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