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Video tags
Subtitles
Russian
00:00:02
[music]00:00:09
[applause] [music]00:00:31
Hello Hello everyone Welcome to the00:00:35
origins podcast I'm your host Lawrence00:00:37
Kraus This is a special week for the podcast00:00:40
because in November the Stock Projects Foundation00:00:43
held its first series of public00:00:46
events that had long been postponed due00:00:48
to events related to the pandemic00:00:53
the event took place over two days and we00:00:57
will release videos from both days00:01:00
Today we are releasing the first00:01:04
This is my dialogue with Richard Dokeys00:01:07
As you may know Richard and I00:01:10
have released many dialogues over the00:01:12
years but what surprised us this time was the00:01:16
novelty that was in this dialogue00:01:19
I wanted to Discuss with Richard, his new00:01:23
book called books fill00:01:27
our lives, this is a collection of his texts about00:01:30
books and other writers, including00:01:32
me, our dialogues, we discuss this topic in00:01:36
detail and move away from those00:01:39
dialogues that we had in the past00:01:42
We left the stage inspired and00:01:44
the reaction of the audience was wonderful00:01:47
this dialogue was filmed by the same team that00:01:49
worked on the film unbelievers So00:01:52
you can watch everything from 5 cameras in00:01:55
high definition That is, this is special00:01:57
The visual version of the podcast is not only00:01:59
just audio I hope that you appreciate our00:02:02
attempt to discuss ideas that are important for00:02:04
both of us00:02:08
So please enjoy the00:02:09
dialogue that we had with00:02:12
Richard and which took place beautifully in November at the00:02:17
infinex theater, you will be able to appreciate how beautiful it is,00:02:23
I think it is appropriate, along with the announcement of our00:02:26
dialogue, to announce that the foundation project00:02:30
origins are opening registration for00:02:34
participation in our journey on March 23 to the00:02:37
Galapagos Islands,00:02:40
which00:02:41
of course were made famous by Richard Dawkins,00:02:46
as part of this trip to the00:02:49
Galapagos Islands and Ecuador, we00:02:53
will have invited experts and speakers in00:02:55
particular Franz Duval and Lezbit Holbert,00:02:57
who were both guests on this00:03:00
podcast and both are remarkable in the breadth of00:03:02
their knowledge and diversity of merit,00:03:05
participants in this eight-day cruise to the00:03:08
Galapagos Islands will be able to communicate00:03:10
with me and with them and with other00:03:12
special guests I hope that you00:03:15
can join us registration00:03:16
opens on March 23rd for everyone for00:03:20
participants of previous trips there will be00:03:23
pre-registration I00:03:27
hope we can communicate with many of you00:03:32
our boat can accommodate 36 people the number of00:03:35
people is limited to make the experience00:03:37
more intimate there are00:03:40
several interesting00:03:41
events planned during the trip So go to the website00:03:44
originsproject.org00:03:48
Check out the information about the cruise and00:03:51
join of course I hope you00:03:54
Consider subscribing to00:03:56
our substack it's called Critical mess00:04:00
all proceeds there go to00:04:03
support the00:04:04
origins project And the podcast00:04:07
Of course you can listen and watch00:04:10
the podcast without any advertising If you00:04:14
Subscribe00:04:16
either to YouTube00:04:19
or any other podcast platform00:04:26
in any case I hope that this dialogue00:04:30
with Richard Dawkins will be a00:04:32
breath of fresh air for you as it was for me00:04:52
Thank you for00:04:55
a minute00:04:58
I'll take a photo now00:05:04
[applause]00:05:07
don't move00:05:10
well Thank you so much it's just an00:05:14
incredibly00:05:15
amazing evening00:05:18
can I turn on the lights so I can see people00:05:23
I'm very glad to see you all and so glad00:05:26
to be back Phoenix hasn't been here for a long time00:05:30
glad to see people from everywhere we talked a little00:05:33
before the show00:05:37
people came Seattle00:05:39
San Diego00:05:41
Tucson Texas Denver where else00:05:47
where Michigan from00:05:52
everywhere came from everywhere every state and00:05:56
every country is represented here00:05:58
Incredibly00:06:01
I'm especially glad that there are a lot of students here it00:06:06
really means a lot to us00:06:12
Well now I can hear you00:06:15
we spent some time with groups of00:06:18
students talking with them00:06:21
we were able to meet a wonderful00:06:23
teacher, Zach King, who brought00:06:26
his students00:06:27
[applause]00:06:29
this means a lot to me because00:06:32
when I taught at the university, Zach00:06:34
was my student He asked00:06:36
me questions in my office And now he00:06:38
inspires the New generation00:06:40
[applause]00:06:45
also I must say that these are students from the00:06:49
high school crying Samshin we also00:06:53
have biology students00:06:55
where you00:07:01
you won00:07:04
What other educational institutions00:07:09
What school00:07:11
please what other00:07:15
university in Chile excellent You also00:07:19
won00:07:22
Well I hope you have a great00:07:25
time Thank you for coming I hope it’s00:07:28
evening will be interesting as I said00:07:31
it means a lot to me00:07:33
I want to acknowledge the board of the foundation who00:07:35
did a lot to make this happen we00:07:38
have come a long way a lot of efforts of many00:07:40
people Before we start Of course00:07:43
I want to introduce a special guest00:07:45
Richard Dawkins00:07:48
I have known Richard for00:07:50
about 15-20 years ago when I asked00:07:56
him a very unpleasant question during00:07:58
one lecture00:07:59
He said that this question was not like the00:08:02
average unpleasant question we began to00:08:05
discuss and communicated after this00:08:07
event this dialogue00:08:10
ultimately led to the release of our00:08:11
joint material with antifig American00:08:14
also this led to because Stanford00:08:16
asked both of us to participate in a00:08:18
public discussion, Richard then00:08:21
insisted that we should not00:08:23
have a moderator,00:08:25
he argued that they were only in the way, I00:08:30
agree with him.00:08:31
Well, we tried and we succeeded, those of00:08:35
you who watched the film are non-believers and know00:08:37
that we had a lot of dialogues all over00:08:39
the world, but more on that a little later Richard Dawkins00:08:42
needs no introduction, he is not00:08:45
only one of the most famous scientists in00:08:47
the world,00:08:48
but also one of the most successful writers, I do00:08:51
n’t want to talk about the00:08:53
science pulverizers, although it’s true00:08:57
his book, The Selfish Gene, in my00:09:00
humble opinion, it’s possible one of the best00:09:03
scientific books ever written in00:09:05
history00:09:06
deservedly it has had a huge impact00:09:09
on the world definitely he has had a big impact on00:09:13
my life What makes her incredibly happy and time to00:09:17
invite him on stage Richard00:09:19
[applause]00:09:38
This is not our first time00:09:43
Richard and I have had a lot of dialogue all over00:09:47
the world we don't want to make them00:09:50
similar to each other although it is00:09:53
tempting we try to find00:09:55
different topics for conversation00:09:58
Today I want to ensure the00:10:01
novelty of our conversation00:10:03
to discuss Richard's new book or rather00:10:07
two books this is the first book in a book that00:10:11
fills life with00:10:13
reading and writing in science00:10:15
[music]00:10:17
and it’s true that books fill life. One00:10:20
of the students once asked00:10:22
Richard what interested us in science.00:10:26
I know that reading books played a huge role for me,00:10:32
this is a wonderful book, it gave me00:10:36
certain thoughts and I think we will00:10:38
base our dialogue at least00:10:40
his first part on this book is a00:10:43
compilation of articles written by Richard00:10:47
about other books00:10:51
about personnel,00:10:54
also there are transcripts of00:10:57
Richard’s dialogues with other people, I must say,00:11:00
and with me too,00:11:03
he wrote after the word to my book A00:11:06
Universe from Nothing It is included here00:11:10
By the way, we are not therefore, we are discussing the book,00:11:15
it is about science and culture,00:11:19
and I think this is a great way to start.00:11:22
After all, this is what our foundation is about, projects00:11:25
drains00:11:26
and science and culture,00:11:28
and science is not just a part of culture, not00:11:31
just a small part, but a central00:11:34
part.00:11:35
Recently I was talking with a group of people and00:11:39
during the conversation appeared interesting00:11:40
idea that life is an experiment00:11:43
and if life is an experiment then science00:11:47
should be a central part of life00:11:50
because it is in the heart of every experiment00:11:52
everything Our life is trial and error This is how00:11:56
our short time under the sun works00:12:01
and since you are that part of society that00:12:04
understands the importance of science in culture This00:12:07
will be our main Theme And of course it00:12:09
is the Central Theme of this book. Let's00:12:14
start with the fact that the first part of the book about the00:12:18
literature of science00:12:21
you express an interesting idea that00:12:24
often scientific texts are not considered00:12:26
literature. I want to note that the00:12:29
Nobel Prize in Literature00:12:31
was mainly awarded00:12:33
to novelists by the author of fiction00:12:38
but it was awarded several times by a00:12:43
non-fiction writer, for example Winston00:12:46
Churchill,00:12:49
you write that00:12:52
the prize has never been awarded to a real00:12:55
scientist, the only controversial exception00:12:58
is Henri Bergson. I want to ask00:13:00
you why this exception.00:13:02
Bergson, I think he was a philosopher, in many ways,00:13:06
this can be considered a scientist in his time, he was00:13:09
considered scientists in many respects,00:13:12
he believed that life could be explained by00:13:15
what he called00:13:19
Julian Huxley sneered at this00:13:22
by saying that the movement of trains can be00:13:24
explained00:13:26
Elon Lokomotiv00:13:30
this explains absolutely nothing00:13:36
Elon Vital also explains nothing to00:13:40
be a scientist you need to resort to00:13:43
reductionism What is it that moves in life00:13:46
her forward what makes her do00:13:49
what she does is simply to claim that00:13:51
there is some kind of life force this is bad00:13:54
science00:13:58
but I think that he is the only one who00:14:01
received the Nobel Prize in Literature00:14:03
who was classified as a scientist00:14:09
other than Verton Russell just wanted00:14:12
to say that they are mentioned by Bertrand00:14:14
Russell and his can be considered a scientist00:14:16
Bertrand Russell was a brilliant mathematician00:14:18
and he had a scientific eye and a scientific00:14:21
mindset00:14:25
would be at home at any00:14:27
scientific event00:14:30
So I would call him a scientist I was so00:14:34
surprised that he doesn't have a book he is much more than a00:14:36
degree scientists Chamberkson00:14:39
also needed to say that he received the00:14:41
Nobel Prize not for scientific work, but00:14:43
for his work about the world of history and00:14:46
philosophy.00:14:49
Which nevertheless allowed him to receive the00:14:52
Nobel Prize because it is called00:14:54
scientific writing,00:14:55
it is so strange that we divide books00:14:58
into fiction and nonfiction,00:15:01
such a curious division00:15:05
if 50 percent books have been written about things00:15:10
that have never happened00:15:13
but can happen Yes, this is precisely00:15:16
the science of what can happen as a00:15:19
theoretical physicist I must say I00:15:22
wrote about things that definitely never00:15:24
happened00:15:28
I must ask you00:15:30
over the years I have participated several times00:15:33
in the commission that puts forward00:15:35
nominees for the prize and this is a secret Well, it’s not00:15:39
the fact that I was included in it. But the process of00:15:41
nominating nominees. You shouldn’t know00:15:43
who is being nominated. Although People often00:15:46
advertise this fact, I00:15:48
have to ask you, I think it’s a work00:15:52
that is worthy of the Nobel Prize in00:15:53
Literature.00:15:59
I wanted to ask00:16:02
you when -they put forward You are aware of00:16:04
this I00:16:09
think I shouldn’t answer this00:16:12
question00:16:15
I don’t know I could only participate in the00:16:17
movement of books on physics I think you understand00:16:20
By my answer Yes I guessed it I’ll cross my00:16:23
fingers for you00:16:29
in the book you cite part of the scientific00:16:31
text and It means a lot to me It00:16:34
was written by Sir James Jason00:16:37
he is the scientist whom I read in my00:16:39
youth he wrote the book Physics and00:16:41
Philosophy Which is what attracted me to physics00:16:43
and then philosophy But from this I grew00:16:46
So00:16:50
in 1930 he wrote the book Mysterious00:16:53
Universe in Britain it is included on the bestseller lists00:16:58
and I want to quote because you are in the00:17:01
know. You read, commented and helped00:17:03
me with my new book, which comes out00:17:06
next year and is called known00:17:08
unknowns. And in the States it is called00:17:11
because known unknowns, this00:17:14
quote from Donald. And my American00:17:17
publishers felt that it was inappropriate to use00:17:22
British ones. the publisher with whom I talked00:17:24
asked me00:17:27
if I could write a book in the spirit of the00:17:29
mysterious Universe which I then00:17:31
read I want to read from it But that00:17:35
case If you do not think that science00:17:37
can be literature listen00:17:39
standing on a microscopic fragment of a grain00:17:41
of sand we are trying to discover the nature and00:17:44
meaning of the Universe which surrounds our home00:17:46
in space and time00:17:48
our first impression is like a nightmare00:17:53
The Universe scares us because of its00:17:55
gigantic meaningless distances00:17:58
we cannot realize it because there are00:18:02
unimaginably huge00:18:04
periods of time in it that reduce the history of00:18:06
mankind to a second it scares us00:18:10
because of our total loneliness00:18:11
because of the material insignificance of00:18:13
our place in the cosmos one Millionth of a00:18:16
grain of sand of one grain of sand from all the sandy00:18:19
beaches of the world But above all else we00:18:22
find the universe frightening because it00:18:24
seems indifferent to our lives to the00:18:26
emotions ambitions to the achievement of art00:18:29
seem equally alien to its00:18:32
plan00:18:33
very often beautifully written00:18:37
You read it.00:18:39
I often come across something like this when00:18:42
people think about the scientific view of the00:18:45
universe and life in particular,00:18:49
that the world is empty, cold and frightening,00:18:55
and in many ways it is,00:18:58
but also that this is how00:19:01
everything works, you have to00:19:04
come to terms with it, you won’t be able to say what it is00:19:08
it's not true because you don't want00:19:10
it to be true Why do many people do this00:19:15
I think there was a gubernatorial candidate in Arizona00:19:17
who thought exactly that way00:19:24
sorry00:19:29
didn't want to discuss politics disrupted his00:19:32
lunch00:19:34
Yes life is scary and it makes me00:19:37
sad too But that's what life does00:19:39
exciting you can never know00:19:42
in advance you can’t know what tomorrow will bring,00:19:46
it scares some people But for many people00:19:49
it’s incredibly exciting isn’t it00:19:52
interesting to find out what could happen to00:19:54
find out what could happen in your life00:19:57
even more frightening is the fact that perhaps00:20:01
we are a product of only this planet the00:20:09
blind laws of physics explain billions of00:20:12
billions of particles in billions of00:20:15
billions of galaxies.00:20:19
However, these blind forces,00:20:22
acting through the mechanisms described by00:20:25
Darwin,00:20:29
were able to create us after 4 billion years. This thought is simply00:20:33
amazing,00:20:36
I think it depends on how you are made,00:20:39
I am amazed by the fact that I am here by00:20:42
chance,00:20:44
this means that every moment is00:20:47
just a happy accident, we are extremely00:20:50
lucky to be here00:20:51
in a sense, yes By chance But in00:20:54
a sense no, because natural00:20:56
selection is not an accident However, the fact00:20:59
that you and I are here and here you are00:21:02
is an accident of an unimaginable scale00:21:05
just think the absence of a specific00:21:09
sperm could lead to the fact that00:21:11
conception would not occur one in a00:21:15
million you know Aldous00:21:17
Cusley's poem about this Do you remember him I00:21:20
like it when you read poetry00:21:24
millions of millions of sperm all00:21:26
alive00:21:28
from this whole cataclysm only Noah00:21:30
dared to survive00:21:33
and in a billion Minus one could to be00:21:36
another Shakespeare another Newton00:21:40
another Dan but the result was I00:21:45
should have been ashamed00:21:48
when everyone else is outside00:21:52
for all of us better despicable homunculus00:21:55
If only you had died quietly ha ha ha00:21:59
wonderful I can endlessly listen to00:22:02
you read poetry out loud00:22:06
this is a wonderful Step aside, after all, you00:22:08
said one statement00:22:12
and This is the central idea of your book that00:22:15
Science is the poetry of reality,00:22:20
this is an amazing beautiful observation,00:22:22
you want to expand on it a little,00:22:26
I think this is connected with what you talked about00:22:29
earlier, this is part of the culture00:22:33
of thought about the infinity of space, it is00:22:38
extremely unlikely that life00:22:40
at all can develop And that it00:22:43
is developing in this direction00:22:45
these are extremely poetic thoughts a quote00:22:49
from James Jeans well this shows00:22:52
you can take anything that Carl00:22:55
Sagan wrote and perceive it as the poetry of00:22:58
reality00:23:00
maybe someone else I00:23:03
think we will get there you are writing about00:23:05
several people whom you00:23:07
admire,00:23:08
for example, Peter Madebar, by the way, can you00:23:12
tell me a little about him for those who don’t00:23:14
know? I first learned about him from the book00:23:17
he wrote and it’s called00:23:18
Memoirs of Thinking Discs.00:23:21
Peter the Honeymaker was a scientist. A physician who00:23:24
received the Nobel Prize, like me, he00:23:27
studied at biology at Oxford he became a00:23:30
medical scientist and was very influential in00:23:32
immunology but was also a wonderful00:23:34
besoist had a wonderful style, not00:23:38
very poetic But rather sublime00:23:40
elegant00:23:43
my favorite C he has a review of a00:23:46
book by Yaroslav Chardin00:23:49
whom some considered the outstanding00:23:51
French intellectual of his00:23:53
time and it is wonderful beautiful00:23:57
this is one of the most beautiful negative00:23:59
reviews of a book that has ever00:24:01
been written I can quote one00:24:04
phrase he wonders how people00:24:06
can believe00:24:09
many people did it back then and he writes00:24:13
that00:24:14
we need to remember that the spread of00:24:17
compulsory education00:24:19
led to the fact that there were a lot of00:24:23
people with00:24:24
very developed taste who have been trained00:24:28
much more than their00:24:31
ability to think analytically has developed00:24:33
[laughter]00:24:35
this is a typical example00:24:38
of wit medovara remembered another one he00:24:42
began his lecture by saying I00:24:44
hope I won’t be considered impolite if00:24:47
before I start I say that nothing on earth00:24:49
forced me come to the lecture00:24:51
which Do you think I’m about to read?00:24:56
Great, yes, he’s amazing,00:25:00
and by the way, I don’t know Do you remember?00:25:04
You were one of the people who believed. I was00:25:07
talking about it; cinema; non-believers; Yes, I was;00:25:12
I was a student and I read this book;00:25:16
it was written in a poem. in prose00:25:19
this is a translation from French I assume00:25:21
that in the original00:25:24
it also evokes such a dreamy00:25:27
state of unity with the Universe something00:25:31
like that00:25:33
I think I was too negative on Also this is00:25:38
really a good prose poem00:25:41
Although this does not mean that he wanted to00:25:43
say something sensible00:25:45
She turned out to be the one who, I don’t want to00:25:48
say, awakened you by00:25:50
the fact that she aroused your interest in religion,00:25:56
she became the reason that I realized00:25:59
that I was an idiot,00:26:03
I sometimes use this example when00:26:07
people argue that it is not good to tell00:26:10
people that their religious beliefs are stupid,00:26:14
supposedly they will immediately react negatively00:26:17
they will boo you, this was your first00:26:19
question when we first met, it’s a00:26:23
good idea,00:26:26
but in contrast, I say that I myself don’t00:26:30
mind when they show me my00:26:32
stupidity. After all, I really was, but I changed my mind, and it’s00:26:38
normal to change my point of view, it seems00:26:41
that when the evidence changes, I00:26:45
change my opinion what are you doing00:26:47
[laughter]00:26:49
if this happens these days This is00:26:52
wonderful This should be a mantra or00:26:55
become a meme00:27:00
Speaking of memes, I told the00:27:03
high school students who were probably already00:27:05
impressed by Richard that this is the00:27:08
man who invented the word meme and they just00:27:11
got this wow look in their eyes00:27:13
they didn’t know what that meant,00:27:20
let’s discuss learned writers And by the way, yesterday00:27:23
we also talked to Richard, several00:27:25
people in the know. We read excerpts from00:27:28
this book,00:27:29
and we also talked about a wonderful scientist00:27:32
who was also an excellent writer of the00:27:35
Freddy Hoeli series, he wrote what00:27:39
is considered one of the best examples00:27:42
science fiction black cloud00:27:46
can you tell the audience a little what00:27:50
the plot is about00:27:52
someone has read the black cloud00:27:55
one or two people should read00:28:01
it is about a cloud of gas that appears00:28:07
and falls into orbit around the sun00:28:10
leading to chaos and destruction because00:28:14
they cover the sun but not only the00:28:18
first thing i I noticed and in the preface of the00:28:22
book that I wrote,00:28:25
I noted that you can learn00:28:29
a lot of science from this book. It’s not just a good00:28:31
story, there’s also a lot of science, and the first00:28:35
thing you learn is that a scientific discovery is00:28:38
sometimes made by two different sources00:28:41
that move from different directions, a00:28:43
black cloud was discovered telescope, a00:28:49
young scientist noticed that part of the sky was00:28:53
blocked;00:28:56
these were observational materials00:29:00
and completely independently of the observations00:29:03
that were carried out in California in00:29:06
Cambridge in England, the mathematician00:29:11
deduced from the movement of the planets that the planets were slightly in the wrong00:29:16
place, exactly as Neptune was discovered, the00:29:20
planets were in the wrong place and he00:29:24
calculated that there must be a00:29:26
foreign object in a certain place and00:29:29
he sent a telegram. It was00:29:33
very vague in England so he00:29:37
couldn’t look at it himself so he00:29:39
sent a telegram to California and00:29:41
asked if there was such and such an object in00:29:44
such and such a position00:29:49
and when the Californians read00:29:51
the telegram immediately after when they00:29:54
discovered this thing, the words of the telegram00:29:57
seemed to grow to incredible sizes,00:29:59
became a gigantic drama, that is, there00:30:02
could be two independent ways00:30:05
to discover the same thing, this is the first thought. And00:30:09
then when they found out the nature of the black00:30:11
cloud, they discovered that in fact00:30:14
it is a living organism of incredible not00:30:17
human abilities, a00:30:20
way that we could not00:30:22
establish, this is a perfect example of00:30:24
how scientists work,00:30:27
putting forward hypotheses and testing00:30:32
when I read a book as a student.00:30:36
That’s who learned about information theory,00:30:42
the fact that information is an asset00:30:45
that can be transferred from one00:30:47
medium to another And when this way it will00:30:51
retain its properties;00:30:54
there is a dramatic scene in which a00:30:57
girl pianist plays00:31:00
Beethoven's Senate to a black cloud so they were able to00:31:03
establish that it was alive, it turned out that00:31:05
it simply adores Beethoven, obviously it has00:31:08
no ears, but this does not matter00:31:10
because the information is sent to00:31:13
it in the form impulses or something00:31:16
like that00:31:18
and it can appreciate the music00:31:20
it asked them to play it 1000:31:24
times faster the speed was too00:31:26
slow00:31:29
finally00:31:31
the book ends with what the black00:31:34
cloud calls a deep problem and it gives00:31:36
me shivers down the spine deep00:31:39
problems is about what it's about writes00:31:41
Lorentz the origin of the Universe Why do the00:31:44
laws of physics exist in exactly this00:31:46
form? Why are the fundamental00:31:48
cosmological constants such00:31:52
deep problems have always captivated00:31:54
me, although I am not a physicist and cannot understand them,00:31:57
this is true00:31:58
[laughter]00:32:03
several things came to mind Why00:32:06
when you read this book as a student00:32:08
it didn’t give you the idea to go into00:32:10
physics or astronomy, this book is also about00:32:13
biology, the00:32:14
black cloud is a biological entity,00:32:18
one of the questions they ask him00:32:22
is why you black cloud consider00:32:25
yourself a single Person, and this is a huge00:32:29
diffuse cloud of gas inside which00:32:32
radio wave interaction occurs00:32:34
and the cloud claims that if we00:32:38
could all communicate telepathically From brain to00:32:42
brain at the same speed as00:32:44
we can communicate within our00:32:45
own brains then we would no longer00:32:48
be separate people we would become one00:32:51
huge single person00:32:53
you know what we would become you don't know00:32:56
Let God tell you00:32:58
you know what it is Unfortunately, I didn’t understand00:33:03
hehe00:33:05
fishing that moment that in the book they00:33:08
couldn’t carry out the observation due to fog. This observation is00:33:11
completely consistent with the real story of the00:33:13
discovery of Neptune.00:33:15
There were British French astronomers and it00:33:18
seems the French predicted its presence00:33:21
by calculations.00:33:23
The British couldn’t make observations00:33:25
due to- for the fogs, therefore, to make a discovery in00:33:27
France,00:33:28
I want to dwell on this for several00:33:32
reasons.00:33:33
Yesterday we talked about this.00:33:41
You write that, in your opinion,00:33:45
there is only one scientific error in the book;00:33:50
when this remarkable black cloud00:33:54
was asked about what the first00:33:56
representative of their species was, it answered that it was00:33:59
not believes that their forms of life were the first00:34:01
representative00:34:03
and you write to forget about astronomers. I00:34:06
protest as a biologist even if the Hoyles of his00:34:09
colleagues were right and the Universe00:34:10
was forever in a stationary state. The00:34:13
same cannot be said about the00:34:15
highly organized and obviously having00:34:17
some purpose complexity embodied00:34:20
life of the Galaxy can arise00:34:22
spontaneously And by the way, they can, more precisely, they00:34:24
can But it takes more time00:34:27
complex life cannot do this and this00:34:30
means complexity00:34:33
I understand your thought but it struck me I00:34:36
remember this from our dialogue it seems he00:34:40
got into the non-believers00:34:43
was recorded in Sydney00:34:46
someone you asked about the first fish00:34:49
and you answered that there was no first fish00:34:53
well stop stop00:34:57
first of all you probably know that fred00:34:59
hoyle was one of the leading or leading00:35:02
proponent of the stationary00:35:04
universe theory they argued that the universe00:35:06
had no beginning it00:35:09
always existed and matter is constantly being created00:35:13
So when scientists asked the black00:35:15
cloud about the origin of their species, it00:35:18
replied that it believed that there00:35:19
was no origin.00:35:24
As the astronomers said, it was not00:35:26
eye-to-eye with the00:35:28
Big Bang Theory,00:35:30
as the proponent00:35:36
claimed that00:35:38
it is in a stationary state and does00:35:40
not change. I came up with the expression00:35:44
big bang to laugh at the very00:35:46
idea, but it stuck00:35:49
that the Universe essentially always00:35:51
existed.00:35:55
So I protested against this00:35:59
entity claiming that there00:36:04
was no first representative of its species00:36:05
because this implies that complex life is an00:36:08
incredibly complex life form that00:36:11
is just a black cloud appeared,00:36:13
it’s the same as saying that matter00:36:16
Can just spontaneously arise This00:36:19
was the theory of a stationary Universe,00:36:21
there’s nothing so bad about it Besides the fact that00:36:23
it’s wrong, it was a very interesting00:36:27
theory00:36:29
But the fact that matter Can just appear00:36:31
out of nowhere It’s something else,00:36:36
it’s different from complexity both in our00:36:39
life and such complexity as a black00:36:43
cloud of this It simply cannot be this and this00:36:46
means complexity this means a very00:36:48
small probability on a huge00:36:50
scale evolution grows to such a00:36:53
huge scale due to a large00:36:55
number of small gradual steps00:36:57
this is how it becomes possible this is the00:37:00
whole point Darwinism00:37:02
in this I do not Agree with what the00:37:05
black cloud says Come on let me00:37:09
explain this a little lesson on evolution00:37:11
Why the first fish was never00:37:14
well understood but this is a little different00:37:20
people often ask Who was the first00:37:24
man In the sense of who was the first00:37:26
representative of the species Homo sapiens00:37:29
and I answer that the first representative of the00:37:32
species Homo sapiens never existed because00:37:36
which representative of the species you don’t take,00:37:39
for example, 200 thousand years ago,00:37:44
its taxonomic parents will be00:37:47
determined In addition to the same species and will00:37:51
live at about the same time,00:37:54
all living beings00:37:55
ever born belongs00:37:58
to the same species as their parents,00:38:01
some people believe that there is a problem00:38:04
with how you can get new species,00:38:07
all the intermediate links are lost, they are00:38:10
dead. But if you suddenly, with the wave of a00:38:14
magic wand,00:38:15
every animal that has ever lived00:38:18
suddenly appeared on earth it would be difficult00:38:21
to draw a line dividing one species from00:38:24
another; its ancestor,00:38:27
like the first fish,00:38:29
never existed if you look at it from this00:38:32
point of view, but of course there were00:38:34
predecessors, there were ancestors, there were00:38:37
parents, they would simply be classified as the same00:38:40
species;00:38:42
well, clearly, I think this is a good reason00:38:46
to demonstrate the difference between what00:38:48
you meant and what they meant They are00:38:51
under the same statement and I’ll ask00:38:54
another question It’s already in my part But00:38:57
since I’m asking the question I can00:38:59
afford it, it00:39:02
turns out that In the cosmology of my00:39:05
field, scientists discuss probability00:39:08
precisely the fact that such an entity as a00:39:12
black cloud can arise spontaneously,00:39:17
their arguments are00:39:20
connected by and large with the Universe out of00:39:23
nothing,00:39:26
quantum mechanics allows matter to00:39:28
arise spontaneously, particles can00:39:31
appear in empty space and so on, it00:39:35
seems most likely that the future of00:39:38
our Universe is infinite00:39:46
and one can ask the question: What is the00:39:50
probability that life can develop And00:39:54
this is a very complex process00:39:55
to develop and arise spontaneously00:40:00
that the solar system can spontaneously00:40:03
arise from empty space according to the laws of00:40:07
quantum mechanics00:40:08
And that life forms will arise there and that you00:40:12
I will appear here in front of this audience00:40:14
although 5 seconds before we were not here00:40:17
this sounds ridiculous, but this topic is00:40:20
actually discussed.00:40:23
When you deal with infinity,00:40:25
probabilities turn out to be very strange.00:40:27
Some people say that you can00:40:30
compare the probability of00:40:32
such a long complex process as00:40:33
evolution taking 4 billion years to happen with the00:40:35
probability that an infinitely large00:40:38
Universe will simply arise spontaneously.00:40:40
infinite big Universe00:40:42
everything will happen What can happen00:40:44
it turns out that it is more likely that00:40:46
it will happen back we did not exist is00:40:48
n’t this madness Bertrand Russell said00:40:51
that it is quite possible that we appeared only00:40:53
five minutes ago but in a completely00:40:55
completed form even00:40:58
such an argument can greatly cool down00:41:00
Darwin’s supporters because it’s not only is that you and I00:41:03
can sit here00:41:06
I could have a green mustache00:41:09
and you could stand on your head00:41:13
and it all will happen this evening can00:41:16
happen again and again with a difference00:41:19
of just one word This is very funny but I was00:41:23
at conferences on physics and people are00:41:24
seriously discussing this00:41:27
Yes, I want to quote the poet eggs,00:41:33
you are still broken among pagan00:41:35
dreams,00:41:38
this denies the whole essence of what I00:41:42
lived for all my life, that is, before the organism,00:41:45
but this does not mean that it is not true, the00:41:49
whole essence of Darwinian evolution is that it00:41:53
explains how the most incredible thing can happen,00:41:57
how everything works,00:42:00
birds fly because they are well00:42:02
adapted to flying,00:42:05
in the process,00:42:06
some00:42:09
strange freaks are not created that cannot00:42:12
fly because their wings are on the wrong00:42:16
side or something like that your00:42:19
idea that everything will happen What could00:42:21
happen that somewhere out there there is a00:42:25
cricket team that can beat the00:42:26
Australians this idea is00:42:30
somewhat00:42:32
nickelistic00:42:34
I agree nihilism and solipsism it makes00:42:37
science impossible I00:42:39
agree I wanted to say the same thing I00:42:42
talk about this at scientific events00:42:45
By the way at the beginning of your career you were00:42:48
involved in probability calculations for00:42:49
natural selection, this is where you00:42:53
started,00:42:54
probability is something that is extremely distortedly00:42:57
understood in our society, this can be00:42:59
done if you know what your00:43:01
probabilities are or if they can be calculated00:43:03
or assessed. If you know all the possible00:43:07
outcomes, then something can be done, but00:43:10
if you have infinity, then everything00:43:12
turns out to be meaningless,00:43:15
you can come up with anything and therefore,00:43:18
in my opinion, this is no longer science. If you00:43:21
don’t know what your wave function is,00:43:25
you can only guess, if you are guessing00:43:30
what your probabilities are00:43:31
for infinite phenomena, then the answer can00:43:34
turn out to be anything and all science is disappearing00:43:38
let me ask a question00:43:42
I'm familiar with different interpretations of00:43:46
quantum theory00:43:47
Copenhagen interpretation00:43:49
interpretation of multiple universes00:43:51
My colleague David Doidge Rage is a supporter of the00:43:55
multiple worlds interpretation00:44:00
Perhaps you can talk about this00:44:03
because it is related to what we00:44:06
just talked about00:44:07
yes in a certain way kind of connected Although in00:44:10
quantum mechanics you can calculate00:44:12
the probabilities, this is what makes it a science. The essence of the00:44:15
following is that the00:44:18
main position of quantum mechanics00:44:20
can be stated as follows:00:44:23
systems on the most fundamental00:44:25
scale, and quantum mechanics does00:44:28
not work on the classical scale that00:44:30
we are used to; there are many00:44:33
simultaneous processes and Although with from a00:44:36
classical point of view it sounds00:44:37
ridiculous but it is so and now it00:44:41
is the basis of quantum computers00:44:44
The electron that rotates before00:44:46
you made an observation does not rotate in00:44:48
one direction All at once00:44:50
measurement becomes a key00:44:52
component of quantum mechanics now00:44:54
people argue that if all these00:44:59
states exist00:45:00
then when you make an observation that is the00:45:03
probability that the spin will be00:45:05
directed in this direction and the probability00:45:07
that it is directed in that direction00:45:10
we can calculate these probabilities in quantum mechanics00:45:11
but when you made00:45:13
the observation you determine the spin. What00:45:17
happened to all the other probabilities00:45:21
developed the idea of that reality00:45:24
branches out Every time you00:45:26
make an observation one of the00:45:28
probabilities becomes reality And00:45:30
all the other universes in which00:45:32
something else would happen remain00:45:34
inaccessible to you but they exist00:45:37
Every time you make an observation00:45:39
of probability and you are dealing with an00:45:43
infinite number of universes in one of00:45:45
which we are currently in,00:45:50
the code in one of the universes is dead and in one of the00:45:54
universes,00:45:59
Shreddinger’s is not an experiment,00:46:02
no one conducted it, but at least I do00:46:05
n’t think that anyone conducted it. The point is00:46:08
that the cat is locked in a box with a00:46:10
radioactive device that can00:46:11
go off and kill a cat but from the point of view of00:46:14
quantum mechanics we can consider that00:46:16
someone is both alive and dead until00:46:18
you open the box this is not the best00:46:20
analogy but it shows the same idea00:46:23
that the junger came up with this as some kind of satire00:46:26
Yes it was a satirical thought00:46:29
experiment00:46:30
in New York there was a wonderful00:46:33
cartoon where a man is sitting in the lobby of a veterinary00:46:35
clinic and a nurse00:46:38
is telling him00:46:40
about your cat Mr. I have00:46:44
good news and bad news00:46:47
translated and voicedDescription:
Часть 1. Узнайте больше и поддержите фонд на https://originsproject.org/ 15 и 16 ноября 2022 года фонд The Origins Project Foundation провел наши первые публичные мероприятия в Северной Америке в прекрасном театре Orpheum в Фениксе, штат Аризона (мы проводили мероприятие в Исландии в сентябре во время нашего путешествия по Гренландии и Исландии). Не было лучшего способа начать эту новую серию, чем диалог на сцене с Ричардом Докинзом, и это было сутью нашего первого вечера. Как знают все, кто следил за нами, Ричард и Лоуренс вместе вели много диалогов, на сцене и в Интернете, поэтому этот диалог должен был быть новым и необычным. Ричард только что опубликовал новую книгу под названием «Книги украшают жизнь», в которой собраны эссе, написанные им о других ученых и писателях, а также стенограммы его диалогов со многими людьми, включая меня. Лоуренс решил, что эта новая книга предоставит прекрасную возможность прыгнуть в новом направлении, и так оно и оказалось. Реакция публики и тех, кто видел многие из наших предыдущих диалогов, была очень положительной, и они уходили со сцены с ощущением, что это была одна из лучших публичных бесед, которые у нас были. Мы надеемся, что те из вас, кто его смотрит или слушает, согласятся. После 90-минутного диалога на сцене Лоуренс и Ричард задали вопросы аудитории, и после антракта они ответили на многие из них. . Он останется за платным доступом Critical Mass в течение 1 месяца, а затем будет выпущен для широкой публики. Мы надеемся, что всем вам понравится этот разговор, и замечательный энтузиазм Ричарда в отношении науки и письма, а также его понимание мира. В следующем посте мы опубликуем видеозапись второй ночной беседы, панельной дискуссии с ведущими физиками о текущем состоянии космологии. Наконец, в конце этого месяца мы откроем наше новейшее туристическое приключение, поездку в Эквадор и на Галапагосские острова, для бронирования для широкой публики. Подписчики Critical Mass получат возможность заранее забронировать одно из 36 мест в этом рейсе. Следите за обновлениями. Как всегда, платным подписчикам Critical Mass также доступна видеоверсия этого подкаста без рекламы. Ваши подписки поддерживают некоммерческий фонд Origins Project Foundation, который выпускает подкаст. Аудиоверсия доступна бесплатно на сайте Critical Mass и на всех сайтах подкастов. Оригинал видео: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfXMllEUnE0&t=728s
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