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yuval noah harari

00:00:02

let me ask you kind of a big

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philosophical question about Ai and and

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the threat of it uh let's look like uh

00:00:09

at the threat side so folks like Elias

00:00:12

yadkowski worry that AI might

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kill all of us

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do you worry about that range of

00:00:20

possibilities where artificial

00:00:22

intelligence systems

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in a variety of ways might uh destroy

00:00:28

human civilization

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I talk a lot about it about the dangers

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of AI I sometimes get into trouble

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because I depict these scenarios of how

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AI becoming very dangerous and then

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people say that I'm encouraging these

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scenarios but I'm I'm you know I'm

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talking about it as a warning I'm not so

00:00:46

terrified of the simplistic idea again

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the Terminator scenario of robot running

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in the street shooting everybody

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I'm more worried about AI accumulating

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more and more power and basically taking

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over Society based taking over our lives

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taking power away from us until we don't

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understand what is happening and we lose

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control of our lives and of the future

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the two most important things to realize

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about AI you know so many things are

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being said now about AI but I think

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there are two things that every person

00:01:23

should know about AI

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first is that AI is the First Tool in

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history that can make decisions by

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itself

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all previous Tools in history couldn't

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make decisions this is why they

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empowered us you invent a knife you

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invent an atom bomb the atom bomb cannot

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decide to start a war cannot decide

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which city to own

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AI can make decisions by itself

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an autonomous weapon systems can decide

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by themselves who to kill who to bomb

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the second thing is that AI is the First

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Tool in history that can create new

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ideas by itself

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the printing press could print our ideas

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but could not create new ideas AI can

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create new ideas entirely by itself

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this is unprecedented therefore it is

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the first technology in history that

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instead of giving power to humans it

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takes power away from us

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and the danger is that if it will

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increasingly take more and more power

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from us

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until we are left helpless and clueless

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about what is happening in the world and

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this is already beginning to happen in

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an accelerated uh Pace more and more

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decisions about our lives whether to

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give us a loan whether to give us a

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mortgage whether to give us a job or

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taking by Ai and more and more of the

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ideas of the images of the stories that

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surround us and shape our our minds our

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world our produced or created by AI not

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by human beings if you can just Linger

00:03:09

on that what is the danger of that that

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more and more of the creative

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side

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is done by AI the idea generation

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is it that we become stale in our

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thinking is that that idea generation is

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so fundamental to like the

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evolution of humanity but we can't

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resist the idea is to to resist an idea

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you need to have some some vision of of

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the creative process yeah now this is a

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very old fear

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um you go back to Plato's Cave

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some of this idea that people are

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sitting chained in a cave and seeing

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shadows on a screen on a wall and

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thinking this is reality

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you go back to to the cart and he has

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this thought experiment of the of the

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demon and the card asks himself how do I

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know that any of this is real maybe

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there is a demon who is creating all of

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this and is basically enslaving Me by

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surrounding me with these Illusions you

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go back to Buddha it's the same question

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what if we are living in a world of

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Illusions and because we have been

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living in it throughout our lives all

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our ideas or our desires how we

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understand ourselves this is all the

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product of the same illusions

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and this was a big philosophical

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question for thousands of years now it's

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becoming a practical question of

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engineering because previously all the

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ideas as far as we know maybe we are

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living inside a computer simulation or

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for intelligent Rats from the planet

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Zircon if that's the case we don't know

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about it but taking what we do know

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about human history until now all the

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again stories images paintings songs

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operas theater everything we've

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encountered and shaped our minds was

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created by humans

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now increasingly we live in a world

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where the more and more of these

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cultural artifacts will be coming from

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an alien intelligence

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very quickly we might reach a point when

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most

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of the story stories images songs TV

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shows whatever are created by an alien

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intelligence

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and

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um if we now find ourselves inside this

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kind of world of illusions

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created by an alien intelligence that we

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don't understand but it understands us

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this is a kind of you know spiritual

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enslavement that we won't be able to

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break out of because it understands us

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it understands how to manipulate us but

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we don't understand

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what is behind this screen of stories

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and images and and songs

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so if there's a set of AI systems that

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are operating in the space of ideas

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they're far superior to ours and we're

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not almost able to it's it's opaque to

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us we're not able to see through how

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does that change the um

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the pursuit of happiness

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the human pursuit of happiness life

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where do we get joy

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if there were surrounded by AI systems

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that are doing most of the cool things

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humans do much better than us you know

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some of the things it's okay that the

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AIS would do them many human tasks and

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jobs

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um you know it's it's the drudgery they

00:06:43

are not fun they are not developing I

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will ask emotionally or spiritually it's

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fine if the robots take over

00:06:52

I don't know I think about the people in

00:06:54

supermarkets or grocery stores that

00:06:56

spend hours every day just you know

00:06:57

passing uh items and and then charging

00:07:01

you the money I mean if this can be

00:07:03

automated wonderful we need to make sure

00:07:06

that these people uh then have better

00:07:09

jobs uh uh better means of supporting

00:07:13

themselves and developing their social

00:07:17

abilities their spiritual abilities uh

00:07:20

and and that that's the that's the ideal

00:07:23

world that AI can create

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that it takes away from us the things

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that uh uh it's better if we don't do

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them

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and allows us to focus on the most

00:07:36

important things and the deepest aspects

00:07:39

of of our nature of our potential

00:07:42

if we give AI Control of the sphere of

00:07:45

ideas at this stage I think it's very

00:07:49

very dangerous because it doesn't

00:07:51

understand us and

00:07:53

AI at present is mostly digesting the

00:07:58

products of human culture

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everything we've produced over thousands

00:08:03

of years it eats all of these cultural

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products digests it and starts producing

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its own new stuff

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but we still still haven't figured out

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ourselves in our bodies our brains our

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minds our psychology

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um so an AI based on our float

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understanding of ourselves is a very

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dangerous thing

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I think that we need first of all to

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keep developing ourselves

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if if for every dollar and every minute

00:08:40

that we spend on developing AI

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artificial intelligence we spend another

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dollar and another minute in developing

00:08:49

human consciousness the human mind will

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be okay

00:08:53

the danger is that we spend all our

00:08:55

effort on developing an AI at the time

00:08:58

that we don't understand ourselves

00:09:00

and then letting the AI take over that's

00:09:03

that's a road to a human catastrophe

00:09:06

does this surprise you how well large

00:09:09

language models work I mean has it

00:09:11

modified your understanding of the

00:09:13

nature of intelligence yes I mean you

00:09:15

know I've been writing about AI for

00:09:18

I know like eight years now

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and engage with all these predictions

00:09:23

and speculations and when it actually

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came it was much faster and more

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powerful than I thought it would be

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um I didn't think that we would have in

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2023 and AI that can hold the

00:09:37

conversation that you can't know if it's

00:09:39

a human being or an AI that can write

00:09:43

beautiful texts in telling I mean I I

00:09:46

read the texts written by AI

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and the thing that strikes me most is

00:09:52

the coherence

00:09:53

you know people think oh it's nothing

00:09:55

they just takes ideas from here and

00:09:57

their words for me and and putting no

00:09:59

it's so current I mean you read in not

00:10:03

sentences you read paragraphs you read

00:10:06

entire texts and there is logic that

00:10:09

there is the structure not only go here

00:10:11

and it's convincing yes and the

00:10:14

beautiful thing about it that has to do

00:10:16

with your work it doesn't have to be

00:10:18

true

00:10:20

gets facts wrong but it still is

00:10:22

convincing

00:10:24

and it is both scary and beautiful yeah

00:10:27

that our brains love language so much

00:10:30

that we don't

00:10:32

need the facts to be correct we just

00:10:35

need it to be a beautiful story yeah and

00:10:38

that's been the secret of politics and

00:10:40

religion for thousands of years and now

00:10:43

it's coming with AI so you as a person

00:10:46

who has written some of the most

00:10:48

impactful words ever written in your

00:10:50

books uh how does that make you feel

00:10:53

that you might be one of the last

00:10:56

effective human writers that's a good

00:10:59

question

00:11:00

first of all do you think that's

00:11:01

possible I think it is possible

00:11:04

um I I've seen a lot of examples of AI

00:11:07

being told right like you will know

00:11:09

Harare and what it produces has it ever

00:11:11

done better than you think you could

00:11:12

have written yourself

00:11:14

I mean on the level of content of ideas

00:11:18

no there are things I say I would I

00:11:21

would never say that

00:11:22

but when it comes to the you know I mean

00:11:25

there is again the coherence and the

00:11:28

quality of writing is such

00:11:31

that I say it's it's unbelievable how

00:11:34

good it is

00:11:35

and who knows in 10 years in 20 years

00:11:38

maybe it can do better even on in

00:11:42

according to certain measures of on the

00:11:45

level of of content

00:11:47

so that people would be able to do like

00:11:49

a style transfer to uh in the style of

00:11:53

Yvonne or Harare right anything right

00:11:56

why I should have ice cream tonight

00:12:00

and and make it convincing I don't know

00:12:01

if I have anything convincing to say

00:12:03

about this I think you'll be surprised I

00:12:05

think you'd be surprised they could be

00:12:06

an evolutionary biology explanation for

00:12:08

why ice cream is good for you yeah so I

00:12:11

mean uh

00:12:13

I mean that changes the nature of

00:12:15

writing ultimately I I think it it goes

00:12:18

back

00:12:19

um

00:12:20

much of of my writing is suspicious of

00:12:25

itself I write stories about the danger

00:12:29

of stories I write about intelligence

00:12:33

but highlighting the dangers of

00:12:35

intelligence ultimately I don't think

00:12:38

that in terms of power

00:12:41

human power comes from intelligence and

00:12:44

from stories but I think that the

00:12:47

deepest and best qualities of humans are

00:12:49

not

00:12:50

intelligence and not storytelling and

00:12:53

not power

00:12:54

again with all our power with all our

00:12:57

cooperation with our intelligence we are

00:13:00

on the verge of destroying ourselves and

00:13:03

destroying much of the ecosystem

00:13:05

our best qualities are not there

00:13:09

our best qualities are non-verbal again

00:13:13

they come from things like compassion

00:13:15

from introspection and introspection for

00:13:18

my experience is not variable if you try

00:13:21

to understand yourself with words you

00:13:23

will never succeed there is a a place

00:13:27

where you need the words

00:13:28

but the deepest insights they don't come

00:13:31

from words

00:13:33

and you can't write about it that that's

00:13:36

second it goes back to to Wittgenstein

00:13:38

to Buddha to so many of these sages

00:13:40

before that uh this these are the things

00:13:43

we are silent about

00:13:44

yeah but eventually you have to project

00:13:46

it as a writer you have to

00:13:48

do the silent introspection but project

00:13:51

it onto a page yes but you still have to

00:13:54

warn people you will never find the

00:13:57

deepest truth in a book you will never

00:13:59

find it in words

00:14:02

uh you can only find it in I think in

00:14:05

direct experience which is non-verbal

00:14:07

which is pretty verbal

00:14:09

in the Silence of your own mind yes

00:14:11

somewhere in there

Description:

Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mde2q7GFCrw Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - MasterClass: https://www.masterclass.com/lex to get 15% off - Eight Sleep: https://www.eightsleep.com/eu/lex/ to get special savings - ExpressVPN: https://expressvpn.com/lexpod to get 3 months free - InsideTracker: https://info.insidetracker.com/lex to get 20% off - AG1: https://drinkag1.com/lex to get 1 month supply of fish oil GUEST BIO: Yuval Noah Harari is a historian, philosopher, and author of Sapiens, Homo Deus, 21 Lessons for the 21st Century, and Unstoppable Us. PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lex-fridman-podcast/id1434243584 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2MAi0BvDc6GTFvKFPXnkCL RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ Full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4 Clips playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41 SOCIAL: - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser - Instagram: https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman - Reddit: https://reddit.com/r/lexfridman - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman

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