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00:00:00

[music]

00:00:13

only

00:00:16

[music]

00:00:19

Alexander Alov to this day remains the

00:00:22

highest-ranking

00:00:24

Soviet intelligence officer ever to go to

00:00:27

the West, however, his former colleagues

00:00:30

preferred to call him not a traitor,

00:00:32

not a scribe, not even to return;

00:00:36

indeed, the fate of this defector was

00:00:38

once very puzzled and

00:00:41

American counterintelligence officers actually

00:00:44

arrived in New York in 1938 legally

00:00:49

on a Soviet diplomatic passport,

00:00:51

he then lived in the United States illegally for 15 years

00:00:54

under the name Igorok Kasatin

00:00:57

Ovicha Hole

00:00:58

and came into contact with cheese only in the

00:01:00

early 50s, although later he became

00:01:05

very authoritative As a consultant for the

00:01:07

US counterintelligence service, he

00:01:10

received very unique characteristics from his colleagues,

00:01:12

for example, the

00:01:15

confession of one of the CIA officers who personally

00:01:18

knew Orlov,

00:01:19

he remained a professional until the end of his

00:01:22

days, he revealed only what he wanted to

00:01:25

reveal and, as a rule, in response to our

00:01:27

facts, he cited his own, and so

00:01:30

Alexander Orlov intelligence officer professional

00:01:33

who became a stranger to his own people and did not

00:01:37

become a stranger to strangers studios shells

00:01:42

executive director of the

00:01:45

Kim Philby Memorial Foundation Mikhail Bogdanov and associate professor

00:01:48

MGIMO

00:01:49

Andrey Bezrukov

00:01:51

defector Alexander Orlov a

00:01:53

stranger among his own but not his own among strangers

00:01:58

Sandra love means ’38 yes, we have

00:02:00

a certain one starting point for

00:02:02

our conversation today he is from Barcelona

00:02:07

and where he was a resident before Soviet

00:02:10

intelligence and even more he controlled

00:02:13

some situation in Western Europe on the

00:02:16

passage through France moves to the

00:02:20

United States of America we were kept silent in Canada

00:02:21

I started in Canada about the goal was the

00:02:25

USA yes, he was going to the USA because, after

00:02:29

all, he had some

00:02:31

support there, he had relatives, he was

00:02:34

counting on the heat to say

00:02:36

on the support of his relatives and

00:02:37

[music]

00:02:39

apparently hoped that it would be easier to

00:02:44

hide there, and he really came to the

00:02:47

United States states as

00:02:49

officially as a diplomat,

00:02:51

but soon when this ceased to be

00:02:54

valid, this is a diplomatic passport

00:02:56

and he ended up in an illegal position.

00:03:02

Bogdanov Mikhail Yuryevich graduated from the

00:03:05

Leningrad State

00:03:06

University named after Zhdanov,

00:03:09

Faculty of Philology, Candidate of

00:03:12

Historical Sciences,

00:03:13

Honorary Professor of the Sofia

00:03:15

University of Library Science and

00:03:18

Information Technology,

00:03:20

General Director of the consulting

00:03:22

company consort group

00:03:24

participant expert in numerous television and

00:03:27

radio programs about Soviet intelligence,

00:03:29

the Cambridge Five and Kimi Philby, author of

00:03:33

over 700 publications on international

00:03:35

topics, personnel business and the history of

00:03:38

intelligence, including translations of

00:03:41

unknown works of

00:03:42

Kim Philby, preface of the book by Dolgopolov,

00:03:45

Kim Philby, materials from the book, I walked my own

00:03:49

path, Kim Philby in intelligence and in life,

00:03:56

moreover, why he didn’t sit down in Canada,

00:03:58

Canada, well, not like now, it was

00:04:01

almost an inseparable part of the

00:04:04

British series, that is, work in

00:04:09

Britain and life in Canada and somehow they didn’t

00:04:12

really combine being in the same

00:04:14

bureaucratic structure,

00:04:16

but The United States was, in general, a

00:04:18

fairly simple country for legalization,

00:04:20

where there was no centralized record keeping of documents,

00:04:24

where one could

00:04:26

get lost and many people got lost,

00:04:28

where the

00:04:30

flow of migrants quickly

00:04:32

dissolved among relatives;

00:04:34

from a professional point of view, it was a

00:04:36

very convenient country to be there.

00:04:39

just get lost and very far away

00:04:45

Andrey Olegovich Bezrukov graduated from Tomsk

00:04:48

State University, Faculty of History,

00:04:51

Master of Public Administration,

00:04:54

Harvard University, USA, Associate Professor,

00:04:58

Moscow State Institute of

00:05:00

International Relations, Ministry of

00:05:02

Foreign Affairs of Russia,

00:05:05

author of a number of scientific articles and publications,

00:05:09

including Russia and the world in 2020,

00:05:13

contours of an alarming future

00:05:19

and what The most interesting thing is that the first thing he

00:05:21

did was he prepared a letter,

00:05:24

yes, this is in order to

00:05:27

secure everything and asked one of the

00:05:30

relatives whom he contacted for a

00:05:33

partner who knew him well from

00:05:36

Asian to American Russians, but from

00:05:38

Bobruisk to say they moved even earlier

00:05:42

this Nathan Kurnik had great

00:05:44

respect for his father and he

00:05:47

agreed, as he later said, the FBI

00:05:49

later, using his own money,

00:05:53

to sail on a ship to Paris to France to Paris

00:05:57

and take a letter to the Soviet embassy

00:06:00

in Paris

00:06:01

gloomily name Nikolai Launcher Yezhova I see

00:06:05

a reason and yellow internal affairs it means that

00:06:10

in this letter, this is a very interesting

00:06:11

document, this letter has been preserved,

00:06:14

it is naturally in the archives of the KGB

00:06:17

regime, which means, but it is a very emotional

00:06:20

letter, and here he is, on the one hand, he

00:06:23

writes that he is not the person

00:06:27

who would simply leave there and betray would be and

00:06:30

so on that he sincerely believes and

00:06:33

continues to believe in communist

00:06:35

ideals describes his motives, which means he is

00:06:39

just writing about the fact that before his eyes,

00:06:42

he was already aware of how his colleagues were sent away

00:06:45

and shot for no reason, and he

00:06:47

really gives an argument there

00:06:49

this is where you shot, for example, the more

00:06:51

accurate the speech is in the form of matadors Malin, but

00:06:56

people recruited by him continue to work, which

00:06:59

means he was not a traitor, and so on,

00:07:02

here is such a set of document arguments and it

00:07:05

means he writes about what and

00:07:08

makes it clear that he knows and what if

00:07:13

he will suffer the same fate if he is

00:07:15

hunted, it means that he will reveal

00:07:20

things that will not seem like much,

00:07:22

and in particular he writes about his mother and

00:07:24

mother-in-law

00:07:25

that in no case soon they remained

00:07:27

hostages, that in no case should

00:07:29

they be touched, that is, he he leaves with his

00:07:31

wife and daughter, but at the same time they remain,

00:07:34

and in this situation it means that such a

00:07:38

letter was written, which means that at first,

00:07:42

as is known from the KGB archives, it means that

00:07:46

photographs were already prepared there so that they would be

00:07:48

eager to announce him, but then they changed their minds for

00:07:50

some reason and they forgot about him, the

00:07:53

thing is that the letter he attached a list

00:07:56

of 60 names of

00:08:00

agents and operations that we

00:08:04

knew and in general it was either way

00:08:06

you said strongly that if you suddenly

00:08:09

start oppressing my parents you

00:08:14

will start hunting me, I naturally

00:08:17

hid this list in the appropriate place and

00:08:21

it will be compromised well Naturally,

00:08:26

the list is very long and produced a

00:08:29

correspondence that was extremely valuable and well, it’s

00:08:33

just on the scales of the same cheap

00:08:36

or I think even higher than Stalin, this was

00:08:40

considered inappropriate,

00:08:43

especially since at the end he swore that

00:08:47

if with fresh in the letter in this letter

00:08:50

it is written that if the Soviet side

00:08:53

endures conditions of this agreement,

00:08:56

he swears honor to the communists, security officers,

00:08:59

and so on and so forth, that he, too, on

00:09:01

his part, has fulfilled and from your

00:09:04

letter a lot is written,

00:09:06

I say again quite emotionally

00:09:08

about the fact that in general this man is not

00:09:11

afraid of anything, that he is very did a lot of things

00:09:14

there, unloaded a ship under bombing,

00:09:16

although yes, and so on and so forth, but

00:09:19

everyone knew about it, yes you can say that we,

00:09:21

here he will defend himself to the end and the

00:09:24

fact that he is a man honestly and faithfully and it

00:09:25

was also understandable and a little forward

00:09:29

forward we see that we keep our promises;

00:09:33

moreover, the question is that in the 50s,

00:09:36

after the death of Stalin, his case was

00:09:39

raised so that people began to look for him,

00:09:42

already here in order to get in

00:09:46

touch after his

00:09:48

articles and the book of

00:09:51

centuries appeared the resolution in fact was that there was

00:09:57

no corpus delicti there, despite

00:10:01

what happened despite the fact that with excess the

00:10:04

KGB committee came to this conclusion, they

00:10:07

all looked carefully, they looked at

00:10:10

no damage to the intelligence networks, everyone

00:10:13

knew that it didn’t happen in ’55 at the end of

00:10:16

’55 there was such a

00:10:17

thing the decision was made, this

00:10:19

indicates to me that

00:10:21

the assessment was given that his

00:10:25

disagreements with Yezhov and with Stalin and his

00:10:29

well, let’s say so, let’s manly

00:10:31

desertion in this sense, let’s

00:10:34

call him that, for political reasons it was

00:10:37

obvious, especially after the death of

00:10:39

Stalin, that this desertion refers

00:10:43

more to dissidence for political

00:10:46

reasons than to betrayal, well, let's say

00:10:50

then life is hiding in a couple of scientific

00:10:52

frameworks of the same paradigm, psychologists

00:10:54

were not oppositionists there, I don’t know, a

00:10:57

monarchist counter-revolutionary, and so

00:10:59

on, he remains, and that’s where the point is, is

00:11:06

there a person leaves and gives this to

00:11:11

one thing, and if he just leaves and

00:11:14

stops working for political

00:11:17

reasons, this is in general then another here, of course,

00:11:21

the line is quite thin, but the fact that he did

00:11:24

not betray anyone and did not cause damage, at

00:11:27

least for the organization in

00:11:30

which he lived and was the main and that’s why

00:11:33

I really wanted that document,

00:11:35

Mikhail, the disabled eyes were gaping,

00:11:41

it’s necessary, it’s like from the delivery of the ent, relating

00:11:44

precisely to that period when from eagles 37, in

00:11:50

my opinion, it was the beginning of 38 8 right up to

00:11:55

right, this is right for us app promo there are

00:11:58

a lot of interesting things here

00:12:00

considerations and some of them, even

00:12:03

for us, it is not entirely clear why Stalin

00:12:05

believed that we had all screwed up, that

00:12:07

we had failed with intelligence, and so on,

00:12:10

but there is a doctrine and I have a

00:12:12

version, the fact is that the people who,

00:12:14

along with the heavy and the hedgehogs, came they

00:12:18

couldn’t change the organization and clean it up; they couldn’t

00:12:21

present this topic any other way, how can they

00:12:25

organizations that work successfully in

00:12:28

this way clean the reasons, there are no reasons, that

00:12:33

is, they gave it to the natural one,

00:12:34

and this is the instruction that became Strauss,

00:12:37

the instructions he was deprived of,

00:12:39

and which sanjeevani it was her mother, the

00:12:44

current document gold,

00:12:46

I liked we have very much forgotten the basic

00:12:50

rules of intelligence

00:12:51

there are direct enemies there are possible enemies

00:12:54

all allies possible enemies and allies

00:12:58

also need to be checked

00:13:00

from an intelligence point of view we cannot have

00:13:02

friends there are direct enemies

00:13:05

there are possible enemies this is an interesting

00:13:08

thought and well this is the bigger one

00:13:10

or whatever it is concerns in general in

00:13:11

the worldview they became ours not inside

00:13:14

often gestures they are revealed and the hidden

00:13:16

lion there are a lot of interesting things, there is

00:13:19

simply not enough time to carry them around, but this is what

00:13:22

is directly related to that

00:13:24

purge and directly the heroes of our

00:13:27

program

00:13:28

means the intelligence network to reconnaissance for

00:13:32

management needs to be disbanded, it is better to

00:13:35

disband the whole

00:13:36

call people take a closer look at them and

00:13:39

after a thorough check some of

00:13:42

them can be used in another

00:13:44

direction in intelligence it is not clear to send

00:13:48

to other places better less but

00:13:51

proven and healthy the central

00:13:54

apparatus should consist only of its own

00:13:57

people here big we know this is a familiar

00:13:59

feeling here microsd ramil term

00:14:02

question of the Comintern who handed over to his people,

00:14:04

that is, they are definitely not foreigners,

00:14:06

are they definitely Theodore Mana, this is of course

00:14:11

interesting and look under he gave

00:14:13

such instructions, which means what he was

00:14:15

guided by, probably most likely

00:14:17

more political considerations, bar

00:14:20

quickly rip or fresh no 5 minutes of their

00:14:23

disassembly before which are useful for dinner

00:14:26

this one, yes, but these people, I don’t know

00:14:30

how Voroshilov is there, but at least the People’s Commissar of

00:14:33

Ezhov means that he began to pay

00:14:36

his attention to the world and just in case, apparently

00:14:39

there is still this sergeant’s gap, as if in

00:14:42

case of everyone, we quietly shoot and for this

00:14:47

showdown got caught like the internationalists

00:14:50

Comintern sheep like Theodor Ali who

00:14:53

worked with whom the Riga Five

00:14:56

[music]

00:14:58

molli

00:14:59

Theodor Stepanovich Soviet intelligence officer

00:15:02

state security major during the First

00:15:05

World War was mobilized into the

00:15:07

Austro-Hungarian army after being captured in

00:15:10

1918 voluntarily joined the

00:15:13

workers' and peasants' red army since

00:15:17

1921 in the state security organs, the

00:15:20

head of the London illegal

00:15:22

station is best known for his

00:15:25

joint work with Arnold and for the recruitment of the

00:15:27

Cambridge Five in 1937, he was

00:15:31

recalled to Moscow,

00:15:33

shot on September 20, 1938

00:15:39

[music]

00:15:41

and a number of other people, and

00:15:44

accordingly, Alexander

00:15:47

cannot be at all called his for the former, either a

00:15:49

priest or in general a person from the

00:15:51

other side, and that means that even

00:15:55

our hero Alexander Orlov, whom

00:15:57

they wanted to liquidate in exactly the same way, was there to

00:15:59

invite him to the passage to get

00:16:01

married there and there he already got it, but he is a

00:16:03

fairly experienced person, he realized

00:16:05

what kind of trap is this, environmentalists, if

00:16:08

I may, this is a complex document, this is an

00:16:11

ambiguous document, so I would like

00:16:14

our listeners not to get

00:16:17

the feeling that this is Stalin’s document, it’s

00:16:20

just to break everything up and kill everyone, there are

00:16:23

some other colors from the same

00:16:26

documents, look in our country

00:16:34

yes, please, it

00:16:36

is necessary to put out intelligence

00:16:39

and counterintelligence propaganda,

00:16:40

publish a counterintelligence shooting gallery, do not

00:16:43

hide it from readers in the West, the

00:16:45

bourgeoisie creates a halo around their spies,

00:16:48

in our country little is known about

00:16:50

intelligence officers, they are ashamed of their work and

00:16:53

their rank, so there is no influx of

00:16:55

new forces, it is necessary to popularize the work

00:16:58

of intelligence and counterintelligence,

00:16:59

to promote intelligence means

00:17:01

to attract talented young people,

00:17:04

girls, scientists, as a deal between the whole, a

00:17:09

whole series of officially paradoxical ones

00:17:12

about the two wounded will be then life for

00:17:15

a year will be then given this whole

00:17:17

story here this is with the help of tass this

00:17:21

complexity of that not this complexity of the situation

00:17:24

later became very and removable very much I like it is

00:17:28

necessary to drink

00:17:29

VJ volume text thoughts Dryden

00:17:33

volumetric there which bourgeois agents

00:17:36

which our intelligence officers will defeat I will tell you

00:17:38

a lot of things

00:17:39

tell me the works are described in each domain

00:17:42

question and our hero could know about this

00:17:45

instruction in principle could act even I

00:17:52

can somehow influence it is excluded

00:17:54

because These notes in the margins are what

00:17:58

they were in general

00:18:01

for an experienced person, he will quickly

00:18:05

feel them in the mood that is

00:18:07

going on, it’s all of his servants who are not

00:18:11

given personally, so look, yes, yes, clearly it is necessary

00:18:14

then the USA gets to the USA through the Soviet

00:18:17

diplomatic passport, the passport

00:18:19

ends and he goes into

00:18:22

illegal status and that’s 15 years of life, that’s how

00:18:25

he’s been for 15 years, why the war period

00:18:29

with very dubious surnames, it looks like a

00:18:32

German one, and by the way, he came under

00:18:36

surveillance and a rope was welded behind the insulator, in

00:18:40

fact, a rope was pulled due to the fact that

00:18:43

he kept some materials in the safe and

00:18:47

the means

00:18:48

helped it was in Boston and the clerk

00:18:55

probably saw that there was some kind of

00:18:58

roll of canvas with film, naturally

00:19:03

war hysteria, a German surname or dreams,

00:19:07

and for us they were successful manias, he reported to the

00:19:12

FBI why the investigation did not find

00:19:17

him on the spot since he moved

00:19:19

every in general, for several months

00:19:22

the star of even the battle until the 100th daughter later

00:19:24

.

00:19:25

unfortunately she died in California they

00:19:30

were at that time and in general

00:19:33

they were every time one step away from the FBI

00:19:38

but let’s just say I’m not ahead very much go well

00:19:42

there Valerie is deciding

00:19:44

but they still had money, that is,

00:19:47

they are like experienced people to count they knew how to spend money

00:19:51

and spent it little by little in

00:19:54

order to maintain a minimum

00:19:56

standard of living, they had enough of this money

00:20:00

almost until the fifties,

00:20:03

he did not work in this status, did not

00:20:05

earn money, apparently there was no time,

00:20:09

and this naturally was both a

00:20:14

weakness from a financial point of

00:20:17

view and a strength because it was

00:20:19

almost impossible to

00:20:21

get hold of him, that is, not in any files,

00:20:24

in any wide circles of people who

00:20:28

work with you every day, communicate with him, he

00:20:31

didn’t appear here, he really behaved

00:20:34

like a professional, stage I’ll add that he’s about

00:20:39

to hide and these are the difficulties with the floor

00:20:43

the legal position was also connected with

00:20:45

the fact that firstly they demanded some

00:20:49

special law, a presidential decree,

00:20:52

to hide all the cells before wartime so that

00:20:55

they would not be there German Nazis among the

00:20:59

enemies of some of these same ones and therefore they

00:21:01

opened everything but it was not there, how to hide it

00:21:03

there What does his 1 and 2

00:21:06

mean mobilization? He was subject to mobilization due to his

00:21:09

age and I also

00:21:11

try to leave him and he had to

00:21:14

run away all the time in this way

00:21:16

and how he managed to do this, again with the

00:21:19

help of relatives, there were some

00:21:21

semi-legal conversations with the

00:21:25

immigration authorities they said

00:21:27

that this person came from Russia, they

00:21:29

might be looking for him there for something else,

00:21:32

Yuri Nagibin will become bears about how he

00:21:35

had some kind of Russian trace

00:21:37

or Soviet trace there for me, I understood that he

00:21:41

had absolutely hands on a

00:21:42

kiss for years, the thing is that through his

00:21:44

relatives As far as I remember, he

00:21:46

went to the leadership of the

00:21:50

immigration service and explained his

00:21:54

situation privately, that he

00:21:59

was under attack, naturally,

00:22:05

Stalinist Russia was a communist

00:22:08

country, clearly in America there were those who

00:22:10

sympathized with the fact that you never know,

00:22:13

someone would come now to look for him, that is,

00:22:16

he was not reported to the database data, he was given

00:22:21

documents that allowed him

00:22:24

to be legally in the United States,

00:22:26

but they were not put through the normal procedure,

00:22:31

they saw and the exception was stopped, but

00:22:34

people acted within the framework of some kind of

00:22:35

laws, contacts with the

00:22:38

civil administration, civil

00:22:40

civil, and all the time he was working

00:22:44

on a book

00:22:45

Stalin's crime all these years, he was not

00:22:48

working and how he was working without pawning

00:22:51

he worked on the book turned out quite

00:22:54

well, but we have not yet mentioned one thing

00:22:56

about Trotsky, one of the first steps that he

00:22:59

took, he wrote a letter, he

00:23:04

wrote a letter to Trotsky with a

00:23:06

warning that there was an agent in his circle,

00:23:08

which means 1 dollar no one

00:23:12

Zborovsky whom he personally knew, yes,

00:23:15

but in Trotsky’s entourage they didn’t

00:23:18

take it seriously, why?

00:23:20

the Russian knew our hero personally, no, I

00:23:23

receive a letter from an unknown person

00:23:26

who wanted to warn him that he was

00:23:29

in danger, but for some reason, for

00:23:32

some reason, those

00:23:33

around him Trotsky somehow

00:23:35

didn’t believe it, but look, this is another

00:23:38

argument for his motivation, that is,

00:23:42

despite despite the fact that he was essentially a

00:23:46

conductor of Stalin’s policies in Spain

00:23:50

against Trotskyism

00:23:52

and, in fact, in his workplace in

00:23:55

Europe, he retained the understanding that

00:24:01

the persecution of Trotsky was, in general, a

00:24:04

political struggle and he even

00:24:07

sympathized with a person who did not

00:24:09

sympathize with the divorce of this

00:24:12

internationalism

00:24:13

back then, in those years of the 20s, he had it

00:24:17

if he had not taken such a step, this step,

00:24:19

firstly, was risky for him, and

00:24:23

secondly, it would not have made sense if he did

00:24:25

not share that position, well, here he

00:24:29

signed up

00:24:30

or not, not with his name not in his own

00:24:34

name and that’s why they somehow

00:24:36

checked there, no such thing, in general, it

00:24:38

measures this question as it should, which means if

00:24:41

they believed, maybe

00:24:42

everything would have turned out a little differently, so he wrote this

00:24:46

book, well, I know what he did during this

00:24:49

time, such a positive thing, he created this

00:24:52

book, an attack of a sheet of crime and

00:24:55

on the history of this case, the secret story of

00:24:57

redemption where he outlined let's go out and the

00:25:00

publishing name is clear, which means it

00:25:03

appeared

00:25:05

first in newspapers in leading American

00:25:08

newspapers and the first material was

00:25:10

published on

00:25:11

March 5, all 3 blessings are the day of death Stalin,

00:25:13

by such a coincidence, I was flying and got into

00:25:17

this, he was lucky twice because there

00:25:22

were 2 more dates that killed me, to be

00:25:25

honest, I forgot, I guessed hell before the 20th

00:25:29

Congress, another serious material that I

00:25:33

prepared, which went into print, exactly

00:25:37

coincided with the departure, not by the decomposition of old

00:25:41

combs, but I wrote this book right away in

00:25:43

English, what is known,

00:25:46

that is, the purpose, he described it in Japanese

00:25:49

in Russian because he didn’t have such

00:25:51

knowledge of the English language, he forgot how to learn it,

00:25:53

it wasn’t what he was looking for, the

00:25:55

translator began, there was also

00:25:58

the problem of the translator, the problems of the

00:26:00

translators, and from they refused someone

00:26:02

because it turned out that his wife showed it was

00:26:04

too expensive and then, again through

00:26:06

relatives, they went to cheaper

00:26:09

channels,

00:26:11

but he was forced to count the money, but

00:26:14

immediately looking ahead, these publications,

00:26:16

of course, provided financial support for

00:26:18

their wife just at the moment

00:26:21

when they ended it’s already the last money

00:26:24

I’m just getting at, that with the publication

00:26:26

theirs gives, his illegal

00:26:28

period ends, that is, he goes on stage and the

00:26:31

situation turns out to be his own, they say Edgar

00:26:35

Hoover led the FBI, he was overjoyed

00:26:39

with joy when he found out that for 14 years a

00:26:43

KGB general lived with him illegal

00:26:46

situation,

00:26:47

the investigation began, interrogations began,

00:26:50

and it was here that the most

00:26:53

interesting things began, he showed himself as a

00:26:55

huge professional, and

00:26:57

in these moments, than twice there were

00:27:02

interrogations by the FBI, there were no interrogations of the

00:27:05

immigration service, then when

00:27:08

Hoover, in general, left him behind for

00:27:12

lack of a result

00:27:14

[music]

00:27:18

Hoover John Edgar American

00:27:20

statesman

00:27:22

founder of the Federal Bureau of

00:27:23

Investigation who served as its

00:27:25

director from 1924 to 1972 during this

00:27:31

period there were 8 presidents in the United States he

00:27:35

developed most of the modern

00:27:36

methods of crime investigation

00:27:39

qualitatively increased the level of qualifications of

00:27:40

personnel with a high degree of probability

00:27:44

possessed compromising information on

00:27:47

prominent political figures

00:27:52

then the FBI simply did not have material on

00:27:57

which it was possible to catch him in a lie

00:27:59

or something else, but let’s imagine

00:28:04

that he experienced very serious pressure

00:28:06

during several years of interrogation

00:28:09

they had to be isolated from the family no

00:28:12

no Russian word just called called

00:28:15

soft ford about 1 in soft

00:28:18

form

00:28:20

this is not a soft form of a wheel pipe wall

00:28:24

for there is nothing to do with him how much that’s

00:28:28

because he writes he was left with an absolutely

00:28:32

terrible impression from the FBI because

00:28:35

instead of developing it in some way

00:28:38

and he showed his

00:28:40

political position completely, with the

00:28:42

revelations they began to simply put pressure on him,

00:28:44

yes, but not of course it

00:28:47

showed very great strength in this regard, you suddenly

00:28:49

lost his memory, the badge very

00:28:53

competently diverted the conversations right away to

00:28:55

the dead, but that’s all that was there,

00:28:58

they killed starting with Trotsky and so on and so on

00:29:00

then everyone who was shot,

00:29:02

he told everything in great detail about some things, as

00:29:05

soon as something so lively started, I,

00:29:08

and then his memory failed him, why

00:29:11

it all lasted for a very long time and was very

00:29:13

cool, even the legend of his inner

00:29:15

God moments will be good, you

00:29:18

know he was associated with the arrest of our

00:29:22

famous illegal immigrant Abel

00:29:26

[music]

00:29:28

Abel Rudolf Ivanovich

00:29:30

Soviet intelligence officer illegal colonel

00:29:33

having received Soviet citizenship in the

00:29:35

twenties worked as a translator in the

00:29:37

executive committee of the Comintern served in the

00:29:40

army where he received a specialty and

00:29:42

radio operator

00:29:43

having joined the foreign department of the

00:29:45

OGPU worked in the thirties along the line

00:29:48

illegal intelligence and radio operator of

00:29:50

stations in Norway and Great Britain

00:29:52

after the escape of Alexander Orlov was

00:29:55

recalled from 1948 worked for the USA in 1957

00:30:02

was arrested for seven exchanges

00:30:08

he contacted them said ha this

00:30:11

know they drew before this when

00:30:14

you found out already arrested I this

00:30:15

man seems to be a video in the corridors

00:30:17

dragging the Lubyanka confirmed the

00:30:20

girl how great how great, but he did

00:30:23

not say that Abel was a

00:30:25

cryptographer and radio operator in the thirties,

00:30:29

he worked in England under his

00:30:31

direct supervision,

00:30:33

that is, there is no trace, that is, on the one

00:30:36

hand, he moved out and the most important thing is

00:30:38

that he knew from - for real, yes, in this

00:30:42

letter from Yezhov, this is what he

00:30:44

had, what assets the dow took with him,

00:30:47

so he knew, but Cambridge up to the top five,

00:30:49

the Cambridge five, not only that, we

00:30:53

know, for example, that Arnoldovich, who

00:30:56

recruited the top five, he had 17

00:30:58

recruited agents 17 one thing and

00:31:02

Orlov knew all this, this once means it was

00:31:06

only from Arnold alone 4 he knew the whole

00:31:08

apparatus, which means he knew everything that was in

00:31:11

France,

00:31:12

he knew everything from the Red Chapel

00:31:16

[music]

00:31:19

Red Chapel is the general name

00:31:22

assigned by the Gestapo to independent

00:31:24

groups of the anti-Nazi

00:31:26

resistance movement and intelligence networks

00:31:29

that contacted the USSR and

00:31:31

operated in European countries

00:31:33

during the Second World War, the composition of the groups

00:31:36

was international, with the exception of

00:31:38

Germany, it consisted of anti-fascists

00:31:41

of various political orientations and

00:31:43

workers of the commentary district

00:31:45

[applause]

00:31:49

and there, I understand, there were a lot of awards

00:31:52

because he was led by his assistant

00:31:55

deputy

00:31:56

Alexander Korotkov is also a famous

00:31:58

intelligence officer and through him he knew all

00:32:01

this, in fact, he knew everything, both

00:32:04

legal and illegal operations in

00:32:07

leading European countries in the 30s,

00:32:12

he knew all this or knew enough

00:32:17

to deduce blindly where he did not

00:32:19

know exactly so that means a book has been published,

00:32:22

and he somehow plays

00:32:25

the role of a consultant in US counterintelligence until he

00:32:31

understands that, in general, he didn’t do anything that

00:32:36

could somehow worsen the situation of the

00:32:39

Soviet Union, and now

00:32:42

we can immediately move on to the example of

00:32:46

what it is natural for him to do later after the 50s they

00:32:49

began to search in order to find out

00:32:54

what exactly happened there and what

00:32:57

he said and what he didn’t say because they

00:33:00

began to receive material from the hearings in

00:33:03

Congress and naturally it was not a question of

00:33:08

idle curiosity,

00:33:10

they needed to know him to look for mine

00:33:14

even not only 69 fifty-nine, the

00:33:17

best search engine, Mikhail K

00:33:20

Feoktistov, and it’s interesting when they

00:33:24

already met the eagle, he’s basking, that

00:33:26

our people are burning everywhere with pride, how you

00:33:28

found me, only our intelligence can

00:33:30

know our Russia,

00:33:32

but what is known was whether the task of

00:33:36

eliminating Orlov was then or

00:33:39

really they wanted to find out his

00:33:40

circumstances, but the task of eliminating him

00:33:43

could no longer be small because the KGB of the USSR in the

00:33:48

sixties, the

00:33:49

KGB of the USSR or the MGB then in the 50s were,

00:33:55

of course, two different organizations in terms of task and ideology,

00:33:59

and here I think the task of

00:34:05

finding out is always worth it because to

00:34:08

hand over the truth and In

00:34:11

general, there were so many people at the junction of the operation

00:34:13

that it was necessary to find out and they found out

00:34:17

in the end after a meeting in sixty-

00:34:19

nine, which was

00:34:22

completely unexpected for him, he was afraid of a

00:34:24

provocation

00:34:25

that the FBI would send someone and only the

00:34:30

second meeting 7 before he moved only the

00:34:34

second meeting in the seventy-first year

00:34:36

when he could calmly

00:34:38

find out they found people whom the

00:34:45

Americans in no case could have

00:34:47

known these stories further with

00:34:50

relatives with everything else and he was

00:34:52

convinced that this worker turns out to

00:34:55

have been in the same places in Ukraine, is there

00:34:59

Belarus? - the name of the village and

00:35:02

he ran and ran past the well like a crane and

00:35:05

he found out that the Americans simply couldn’t

00:35:07

know this coincidence, it’s not a

00:35:10

setup, that is, he arranged everything to be checked

00:35:14

there by an agent who came out

00:35:16

with him, of course this was the main

00:35:18

danger, then the paste is all that’s it these

00:35:22

problems with identification were overcome,

00:35:26

they talked for 5 hours, in general,

00:35:29

he told in sufficient detail about

00:35:32

what happened between 38 and my 71 years old,

00:35:36

which is interesting, this is confirmed by

00:35:39

archival data from the FBI and the KGB of the USSR of the first

00:35:44

main directorate, and there and there is a

00:35:46

report to find yours too there is no man, the FBI

00:35:51

report was written by

00:35:52

Orlov and, accordingly, Feoktistov

00:35:56

wrote a report, as it were, by the USSR about the

00:35:59

same 5-hour e yu

00:36:01

and when you look at what

00:36:03

Orlov wrote, it means, well, in short, since it

00:36:07

was necessary to write so that the excuse is what is being

00:36:09

said, what exactly is it we wrote

00:36:12

the feoktists you are raising that is, they were already

00:36:14

conspiratorially

00:36:16

deceiving the FBI together and there

00:36:20

were several very warm moments when 10 at the

00:36:22

end they parted quite amicably

00:36:24

he was given an official

00:36:27

invitation to return to the Soviet Union for a

00:36:33

general's job to carry a pension of 300 rubles, a

00:36:36

two-room apartment and a full guarantee

00:36:39

that there would be nothing against it, he said, he

00:36:41

thanked, he said, yes, thank you very much,

00:36:44

but I’m probably no longer strange that he

00:36:46

was at a very respectable age, it’s

00:36:49

not long before his death,

00:36:50

here we have a lot of connections due to a number of

00:36:53

circumstances, I myself will stay here,

00:36:56

my daughter’s grave was brought to my daughter, yes, that’s why

00:37:01

the ending was just like

00:37:03

that, it was very touching, and at the

00:37:07

end they were already playing the same dudu dudeli,

00:37:09

which is said, after the first meeting,

00:37:14

when it was sixty-nine, there was a

00:37:17

very sharp reaction from Maria,

00:37:19

his wife, once she was waving a revolver,

00:37:22

they came to kill you, who are you so

00:37:25

young the man there in your hands you pick up

00:37:29

all that means and yet when the

00:37:32

opera worker came out on the stairs he was

00:37:35

caught up with Orlovsky a young chick tell him

00:37:37

that I didn’t betray anyone I didn’t

00:37:39

tell anything even before the first meeting

00:37:41

he was already given the same cover before

00:37:44

dinner she calmed down that means that’s all, but for now the

00:37:47

lari horizon is to be carried and it

00:37:50

has been revealed to the end, well, this is the story,

00:37:54

but still about this book on a manual on

00:37:58

intelligence activities in

00:37:59

partisan warfare, what is this

00:38:01

book, also a practical guide

00:38:03

for whom, why, well, it’s clear with Stalin, yes

00:38:07

it is he has some kind of political score

00:38:10

to settle and but it was important to him, as far as

00:38:13

I understand,

00:38:15

during the

00:38:17

period of his career in the center so that the

00:38:21

period of the early thirties

00:38:24

or the end of the twenties when he

00:38:28

was more or less stable in Moscow, he

00:38:32

taught, he was also a counterintelligence officer

00:38:37

the beginning of his career the main 6 we cut off the

00:38:40

enemy to say yes, and they can, from the

00:38:43

experience of the civil war, from the experience of his

00:38:46

operational work, he was already writing

00:38:50

for the center for training

00:38:53

[music]

00:38:55

counterintelligence officers, he wrote a manual, that

00:38:58

is, most likely

00:39:00

the idea in this manual they are universal

00:39:04

counterintelligence is universal they formed the

00:39:08

basis of that

00:39:10

document of the question for whom this was an

00:39:15

American publication, however, he

00:39:16

was counting on it or he just wanted his

00:39:19

experience somehow we will be told

00:39:20

safe enough and for the gathered and

00:39:22

anal pride is the professional

00:39:25

pride of a person who knows how it

00:39:28

works and wanted to share his experience,

00:39:33

I will once again repeat the experience of the generalist,

00:39:36

that is, it does not depend on the strange one,

00:39:40

or is it a systematic

00:39:44

manual on organizing a

00:39:48

counterintelligence guerrilla,

00:39:51

and the desk on the capture of women's work, taking into

00:39:54

account the Spanish experience, the colossal

00:39:57

coloring is this and I agree here

00:40:00

completely, but they say that every person

00:40:02

in his life he can write at least one

00:40:04

book, that is, set out the

00:40:07

biography of his fathers, what was there, he got

00:40:10

two opportunities, the first

00:40:12

political, as if this is all according to

00:40:15

Stalin, and the second is purely purely

00:40:17

professional and why don’t they

00:40:19

do anything like that there was nothing there

00:40:24

he actually had lectures, by the

00:40:27

way, nothing was preserved, so they

00:40:28

found these lectures that he gave at

00:40:30

courses for intelligence officers in the late 20s and early

00:40:34

30s to

00:40:35

his students, not as educational

00:40:39

knowledge, and there is nothing surprising here

00:40:42

because we see all the traces

00:40:43

it’s blurry, remember how we did when

00:40:46

one of the actors found himself

00:40:48

abroad in the 70s, he was erased

00:40:50

instantly from the credits or the film they

00:40:52

showed his participation there, Saveliy

00:40:55

Kramarov somewhere where

00:40:57

he is, well, who knows, here it’s the same material,

00:41:03

that is, it lies in folders not top

00:41:06

secret it lies somewhere in folders for

00:41:09

official use

00:41:11

periodically these folders are taken somewhere

00:41:13

waiting for

00:41:15

Vanya, that is, it’s not just not forever one way

00:41:17

or another, he buried it in himself until he

00:41:19

rethought it, published it in the United

00:41:23

States that he wrote nothing in general,

00:41:25

I know

00:41:26

the mail for myself, some diaries and

00:41:29

notes,

00:41:30

the history of the brand, I’ll keep silent for now,

00:41:34

I think the figure itself is Orlova

00:41:39

Anna for a lesson, she is a lesson in time for a lesson for a

00:41:46

person in general, she is so

00:41:49

multifaceted, multifaceted, there are

00:41:54

questions there, and absolutely pride

00:41:58

for the country and for what was done and then

00:42:02

you are tears and blood and everything else, that is, there is

00:42:06

300 gardens of lust around one person and which is a very

00:42:09

unusual turning point, this gives a very

00:42:12

unusual collision as there will be

00:42:14

unconventional themes in which this is what I

00:42:18

would like to say on In this regard, the fact is

00:42:21

that

00:42:23

intelligence work itself,

00:42:26

it carries within itself a contradiction and a

00:42:30

tragedy, a contradiction because it is

00:42:34

done as he perceived it for

00:42:37

good purposes, but it is done naturally by those

00:42:41

methods that

00:42:44

are at least according to the laws of those countries in which

00:42:50

he works criminally

00:42:53

and, moreover, even if not according to the laws of those

00:42:58

countries, he used people for his own purposes,

00:43:04

naturally, and here this contradiction

00:43:07

between the goal and methods which,

00:43:12

especially during Stalin’s times, was very often

00:43:15

tragic, he took it all upon

00:43:18

himself. how did Philby take it upon himself,

00:43:21

that is, he was the link between the

00:43:24

goal and the methods, and then when the method

00:43:27

I understood could not be accepted by him as hers as

00:43:35

his own, he took it upon himself, but he took

00:43:38

responsibility and I care less about her for the

00:43:40

people fence, yes, he subjected the cop to this

00:43:43

absolutely absolutely correctly, that is, he

00:43:47

was essentially, well, how can I even

00:43:53

express this, essentially was the last

00:43:57

authority in this chain from good

00:44:03

to result in a situation where the

00:44:07

last authority was not supposed,

00:44:09

probably yes, technically, I mean

00:44:12

when this the last resort could be a

00:44:15

tragedy for many people, that is, to live

00:44:19

understanding that yes, you are working for a good

00:44:23

goal in which you believe, but

00:44:25

that your work still brings tragedy

00:44:29

not only to yourself and his family,

00:44:33

but this was a tragedy of the family, of course, a

00:44:36

tragedy to other people, yes, they are enemies

00:44:39

and sometimes they are not enemies, sometimes they are just those

00:44:42

people who find themselves on the path

00:44:44

and nothing can be done here, either you do

00:44:47

n’t do this or you take

00:44:50

on this burden of

00:44:53

responsibility between the purpose of the methods

00:44:56

so yes, I would also add

00:45:00

look below to create what happened

00:45:03

if If it weren’t for him to carry around, there wouldn’t have

00:45:06

been the Cambridge Five, who

00:45:08

made such a colossal contribution, only

00:45:10

she alone

00:45:12

means that this book describes that

00:45:14

he had very sensible thoughts about

00:45:17

creating a security system in Spain,

00:45:21

if they had listened to this matter there, in

00:45:24

general, something

00:45:26

else It’s not clear what the civil war would have been like, it would have

00:45:28

ended in a very serious sky,

00:45:31

it’s described in this study, so they did

00:45:34

n’t finish it either, but it’s not his

00:45:37

fault anymore, that is, there were very such things, but

00:45:40

join in

00:45:41

then after all, we’ll tell you a few words about this book

00:45:43

1 to 1 layer these yes here I am so

00:45:46

that our TV viewers have the opportunity

00:45:48

to turn to a reliable source themselves, I think

00:45:51

it was internado quite a long time ago in the

00:45:54

mid-90s,

00:45:55

which means this is a completely unique publication,

00:45:58

and it’s even more close to me that I knew very well from

00:46:01

one of our Russian author Oleg

00:46:03

Tsarev the person

00:46:06

he worked with This means that in the last years of

00:46:10

his operational activity he worked in the

00:46:12

press bureau of foreign intelligence and was

00:46:15

working on archives, and then the

00:46:18

then head of intelligence,

00:46:21

Leonid Shebarshin, called him and gave a completely

00:46:24

unusual instruction to bring up

00:46:26

my materials about Orlov for the first time because

00:46:30

he was a person who was not allowed

00:46:33

talk at all,

00:46:34

but the visibility of the towers, he understood that this was

00:46:36

such an important person, he gave the gardener a

00:46:39

task and then they jointly decided that it was

00:46:42

best to do this with the author on the

00:46:45

other hand, on the other hand,

00:46:48

John Castello came up with such a story, which means and

00:46:51

agreed that he would work, that

00:46:53

is, this would provide access archives of the FBI and

00:46:56

CIA on the one hand on the other side of the

00:46:58

speech it was when it was possible for me to let

00:47:01

Vanga clean the wires, they both complied with that

00:47:05

is, there were some naturally

00:47:07

certain prohibitions, but a very

00:47:09

good creative couple developed that made

00:47:12

this all possible and in fact in

00:47:15

this book about you argument, we are now

00:47:17

talking about it and

00:47:20

studying in the future here is the phil biome as

00:47:22

I call the Cambridge Five and

00:47:25

these other questions I am constantly

00:47:27

faced with the fact that this is the primary source we

00:47:29

will show yes this is the primary source to which

00:47:33

dozens of other publications refer

00:47:36

and why yes according to that the simple reason that

00:47:39

this was created in the archives and when you

00:47:42

look at these footnotes there is a house there

00:47:44

jumping Burgess page such and such there such and

00:47:47

such is kept there in a personal file, that

00:47:50

is, this is a completely unique case, I

00:47:53

will say that there were cases in the history of intelligence

00:47:55

when

00:47:57

outsiders were allowed in in particular, a famous

00:47:59

writer and publicist and the date

00:48:02

were allowed to work there, but their

00:48:06

work may have been of less

00:48:07

quality for the reason that they were not

00:48:09

intelligence officers, a

00:48:11

professional intelligence officer worked here and he knew

00:48:13

where to go, and I’ll tell you that this is the case,

00:48:16

of course, I myself saw these terrible ones

00:48:19

these 6 hundred page volumes from tissue

00:48:23

paper from my safe were

00:48:25

lying there for a while, it’s still you’re risking

00:48:27

a fiver, I looked at it in trepidation, then I

00:48:29

quickly got tired; in general, it’s very difficult to take it all

00:48:31

apart and read it, that is,

00:48:34

it’s a gigantic work and we have to

00:48:36

to say thank you to this author, I hope that

00:48:39

I proceed from the fact that John Castello

00:48:41

carried out the same extensive work on the Western

00:48:43

side, and so they created such a

00:48:46

detailed book, which for the first time serves as a

00:48:49

source for several

00:48:51

decades, I’m

00:48:53

forced to somehow

00:48:58

not finish our conversation, but I hope suspend the

00:49:02

edges, limit them in time but not in

00:49:05

meaning, because the story of Alexander

00:49:07

Orlov turns out to be so voluminous, so

00:49:10

complete and such a strong lesson

00:49:13

that, even in general, it doesn’t have, it

00:49:15

seems to me there is some kind of final

00:49:17

solution, here’s the lesson and we all don’t have it there is

00:49:20

this story, we need to refer to it, we need to

00:49:21

re-read it here and remember there, maybe

00:49:25

something is very important for our

00:49:27

being in this story,

00:49:29

thank you very much for this conversation,

00:49:31

studio store ada were Mikhail Bogdanov

00:49:33

Andrey Bezrukov we talked about

00:49:36

Alexander Orlov

00:49:37

it was a program from a triad of everything

00:49:40

good [music]

00:49:46

here

00:49:56

he is [music]

Description:

365 дней ТВ представляет | Историада | Выпуск № 38 Невозвращенец Александр Орлов: чужой среди своих, но не свой среди чужих Подписывайтесь на канал https://www.youtube.com/user/365DAYonTV?sub_confirmation=1 Александр Орлов и по сей день остаётся самым высокопоставленным офицером советской разведки, когда-либо ушедшим на Запад. Однако его бывшие коллеги предпочитали называть его не предателем, и даже не перебежчиком, а невозвращенцем. Действительно, судьба этого «перебежчика» сильно озадачила и офицеров американской контрразведки: прибыв в Нью-Йорк по советскому дипломатическому паспорту в 1938 году, Орлов затем 15 лет нелегально проживал в США под именем Игоря Константиновича Берга. А в контакт с ЦРУ он вступил только в 1952 году. А хотя в дальнейшем он стал авторитетным консультантом контрразведывательной службы США, его новые коллеги давали ему весьма своеобразную характеристику. Вот признание одного из офицеров ЦРУ, хорошо знавшего Орлова: «Он остался профессионалом до конца своих дней. Он раскрывал только то, что хотел раскрыть, и, как правило, в ответ на наши факты приводил собственные». Итак, Александр Орлов, разведчик-профессионал, который став чужим для своих, не стал своим для чужих. В студии Историады – исполнительный директор Фонда памяти Кима Филби Михаил Богданов и доцент МГИМО Андрей Безруков. Официальный сайт: https://www.365days.ru/ 365 дней ТВ в соц.сетях: ВКонтакте: https://vk.com/tv365days Одноклассники: https://ok.ru/tv365days

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