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00:00:00

[music]

00:00:05

Welcome back to the show we are at mic

00:00:08

2024 in las vegas and now with me

00:00:11

executive chairman michael ser is

00:00:13

always happy to talk to you we

00:00:15

spoke with you recently so today

00:00:16

we are now discussing the topic of bitcoin for

00:00:19

corporations and it is obvious that this is an

00:00:21

area that is a pioneer has been a mic for 4

00:00:23

years since Change your strategy

00:00:25

Tell me on this journey what have you

00:00:27

learned And why is it so important to discuss bi

00:00:31

at an event like this You know there are

00:00:33

many great

00:00:35

Bitcoin conferences sometimes they are

00:00:36

individual and sometimes they

00:00:38

become policy makers some are

00:00:41

targeted on developers but we as a

00:00:46

company have unique experience in

00:00:48

Bitcoin So at such a conference we

00:00:51

aim to resolve issues from corporations,

00:00:55

it doesn’t matter whether we are talking about management

00:00:58

personnel, but in our Strategy and that’s

00:01:02

why We decided to sponsor

00:01:04

this type of conference once a year and this

00:01:06

our third bitcoin conference for

00:01:08

corporations I know you

00:01:10

've been talking a lot with corporate executives about

00:01:12

bitcoin issues Why haven't many of them

00:01:14

gone the mic route they should

00:01:16

look at your stock prices right So

00:01:18

why isn't that well you know there are

00:01:21

some individuals who need to

00:01:24

talk to one or two people from a

00:01:26

close circle of friends so that

00:01:28

research can be carried out and a decision can be made, but

00:01:30

there are private companies and sometimes they

00:01:34

have only one investor and one or two

00:01:36

top managers making the decision, or

00:01:39

even those who may have

00:01:41

one or two people from lawyers or

00:01:44

financiers, but when it comes to a

00:01:46

public company, then for them, making

00:01:48

such a decision requires taking into account

00:01:51

questions that will come from the

00:01:53

finance department from lawyers from the

00:01:58

technology department from senior management and

00:02:02

many questions from the board of directors there

00:02:05

will be questions from external auditors as

00:02:08

well as from the external lawyer of the consul and only

00:02:11

after they bring

00:02:13

the interests of everyone to the same denominator, as well as from

00:02:14

people who ask the question: What about the

00:02:17

regulators in Britain? They are

00:02:19

different from the French and from the Japanese

00:02:22

and from the American ones. So the big

00:02:24

difference is this whole corporate

00:02:26

connection and, say, the company went all

00:02:28

this way and reached a consensus on all

00:02:31

these departments, lawyers, directors, key

00:02:33

participants from the professional field,

00:02:35

but then questions are raised from

00:02:38

shareholders, these could be holders of

00:02:40

public shares, or there could be public

00:02:43

creditors, and if you have creditors,

00:02:45

part of the debt may be owned by the bank, part of the

00:02:48

holders of bonds and partly even

00:02:50

shareholders who have shares and the problem

00:02:53

is how I will discuss all this with everyone

00:02:55

and reach a consensus, so

00:02:57

usually the corporation ends up

00:03:00

facing a very large number of

00:03:02

problems, they have many more elements that

00:03:04

require contact and they not

00:03:07

only take into account the possible

00:03:09

consequences of accepting this decisions but

00:03:11

also take into account the so-called

00:03:13

wave effect two or three or even four levels

00:03:16

deep. For example, if we do This is

00:03:18

what the partners of our largest investors will think about their decisions

00:03:25

and Perhaps they will be able to remove such

00:03:27

two or three steps compared to but they also

00:03:30

need to take into account not only the

00:03:32

ripple effect, for example, this company

00:03:35

is supported by this company,

00:03:37

which is supported by the state of

00:03:38

California, they also need to take into

00:03:41

account what will happen in 10

00:03:43

years if we enter a new business for us,

00:03:46

how it will affect us later

00:03:48

way corporations by their

00:03:51

nature move slower they require

00:03:54

more consensus and all this can be a

00:03:57

little depressing but

00:03:59

there is a Japanese or maybe a Chinese phrase that

00:04:03

sounds like this you want to go fast

00:04:06

Go alone but you want to go far

00:04:09

Go together but once

00:04:11

the company has come to a common denominator it

00:04:13

can invest hundreds of millions of

00:04:15

billions, she can invest 10 billion dollars of

00:04:18

capital in this, making the results

00:04:20

profitable for millions, tens and even

00:04:23

hundreds of millions of people. So this is not

00:04:25

only or or we are talking about

00:04:28

larger investments

00:04:31

of the Reuts with the minds of the problems that now

00:04:34

Tell us why the largest Corporations

00:04:37

should accept as they did Well, there are

00:04:41

two main reasons, the first reason is

00:04:44

that Bitcoin is the world’s first

00:04:47

best digital

00:04:49

settlement system, a digital

00:04:51

monitoring network, a digital trust network, and

00:04:59

I will talk about uniting

00:05:02

dozens of companies into the Lightning network for

00:05:06

fast, extremely cheap

00:05:09

settlement

00:05:19

applications using the Internet of money, then in

00:05:23

this you should be interested we

00:05:25

are now in the first year of

00:05:26

corporate adoption of the Internet of money

00:05:30

and Just as in the first year of the

00:05:34

first year of the Internet of money

00:05:38

you should do this if you want to

00:05:40

stay at the forefront of digital

00:05:42

transformation the second reason why

00:05:45

corporations need it is that the

00:05:47

whole world is trying to overcome the problem of

00:05:51

cost of capital the cost of capital is

00:05:53

about 12 and most of the capital

00:05:57

asset is used

00:06:00

and these bonds in very rare cases

00:06:02

give a return of more than 3% Therefore, all these

00:06:05

financial portfolios somewhere

00:06:07

invested in general bring mine 9%

00:06:11

negative real return and Bitcoin

00:06:13

provides a positive real return and

00:06:16

over the last 4-5 years it was

00:06:18

40-50 about what is Four times

00:06:21

the cost of capital knife 2x such

00:06:23

cost of capital magic and even

00:06:25

equality of the cost of capital And if

00:06:28

you just invest your capital at 12% and

00:06:32

provide 12% of your capital there will be no

00:06:34

solution for shareholders So that bitcoin

00:06:37

represents an

00:06:38

opportunity for technological

00:06:41

leadership, it also represents an

00:06:43

opportunity for a company's balance sheet to

00:06:46

raise capital to protect capital by

00:06:49

providing shareholder returns over the

00:06:52

past few years there have been several

00:06:54

important fech movements towards the

00:06:56

institution of bits have recently been approved if

00:07:00

reporting rules are changing Do you

00:07:02

think there will be any more that is

00:07:03

the catalyst we should be keeping

00:07:05

an eye on that may

00:07:07

eventually persuade these large companies to

00:07:08

accept Bitcoin accumulation Yes, I think

00:07:11

that January

00:07:13

2024 was the beginning of the period when

00:07:16

corporations began to distribute and

00:07:19

accept Bitcoin and the first big

00:07:21

catalyst was sec approving etf for

00:07:25

spot

00:07:27

Bitcoin the second big one should be

00:07:30

failure of all other Crypto

00:07:33

applications for spot etf

00:07:38

and the whole world was waiting for

00:07:42

regulators to ban

00:07:44

Bitcoin and we received the answer no they won’t,

00:07:48

after which the next

00:07:51

resistance will be copying this

00:07:54

precedent and When will we see the failure of the

00:07:57

regulators of

00:08:00

copies, that is, other

00:08:03

crypto assets then we will confidently check

00:08:05

the box it will not be banned and will not be

00:08:08

copied and Usually when people, if you

00:08:12

decide to invest or the

00:08:15

tallest skyscraper in the world, hundreds of

00:08:18

millions of dollars and someone tells you

00:08:21

that you should use either steel

00:08:24

or you should use bronze

00:08:29

you need to use it and you get an

00:08:31

incomprehensible answer where maybe the

00:08:33

right choice would be bronze because

00:08:35

steel doesn’t hold, or maybe the right

00:08:37

steel but bronze doesn’t hold, this leads to the

00:08:39

parallel execution of a large

00:08:41

corporate project, but when it is

00:08:43

completed and you understand that

00:08:45

steel is the right one and there is no second

00:08:48

best solution metal for structural

00:08:51

civil engineering once you

00:08:53

get to that point the project

00:08:55

will end quickly for the corporation everything

00:08:56

becomes clear they need a hundred story

00:08:58

skyscraper but they don't want to be

00:09:00

paralyzed by bad decisions

00:09:02

caused by bad decisions So I

00:09:04

think the critical catalyst will be more than

00:09:07

just regulatory acceptance of

00:09:10

the opportunity work of institutions both with the

00:09:13

asset but also Failure of regulators on

00:09:16

all

00:09:17

alternatives well you talk a lot about

00:09:20

how much clarity and

00:09:22

confidence regulators have about Bitcoin but I

00:09:24

have to ask you It seems that there

00:09:26

is still some uncertainty on

00:09:28

various aspects of Bitcoin activity

00:09:30

many people are wondering What

00:09:32

defines a money transfer business? How

00:09:34

much information should

00:09:36

wallet companies provide about their

00:09:38

clients? There seems to be a

00:09:41

conflicting mood in the community. Will

00:09:43

aspects of the Peer to Peer relationship be protected?

00:09:45

Will privacy be protected? and there is

00:09:47

always a very balanced

00:09:50

conservative approach to Bitcoin and its

00:09:53

place in the United States in the larger traditional

00:09:54

financial system This is not a

00:09:56

zero-stakes game because everything here is symbiotic

00:09:59

and all of us here can benefit

00:10:01

right Can you share with us

00:10:03

your thoughts On this because it seems

00:10:05

that doubts remain Judging by the headlines

00:10:07

and the actions of law enforcement agencies

00:10:09

Yes what Well, I think if we go back to the

00:10:14

very beginning when dozens and

00:10:17

dozens of corporate clients being

00:10:20

legally obedient legal entities

00:10:23

wishing to integrate the Light network to

00:10:25

ensure instant and free

00:10:27

mutual settlements,

00:10:29

then each of these companies operating in

00:10:32

completely different countries and having a

00:10:34

full set of different regulators, they

00:10:36

had absolutely different missions,

00:10:39

some had the goal of a

00:10:44

crypto exchanger engaged in large

00:10:46

transfers of money, and another company

00:10:49

may be engaged in e-

00:10:50

commerce, but the reason why we need to

00:10:52

involve corporations is that

00:10:54

corporations can provide a large

00:11:00

mass of financiers, they can use a

00:11:03

very expensive accounting

00:11:05

system and these systems, you know, will be in the

00:11:10

usual situations to ensure the creation of a

00:11:12

system of compliance with laws, perhaps

00:11:14

state by state, perhaps country by country,

00:11:17

rules on the conduct of the banking system,

00:11:20

rules for the transfer of funds in Britain

00:11:22

will probably be different from France

00:11:24

will be different from California. So I

00:11:28

think the next 4 years will be a progressive

00:11:32

distribution of Bitcoin by a set of banks by a

00:11:36

set of a wide variety of corporations

00:11:38

located in every large country and

00:11:42

these rules regarding translations will

00:11:45

develop in some cases clear and in

00:11:48

some cases not very well, somewhere

00:11:50

they will be contradictory and somewhere they

00:11:52

will be very unclear and incomprehensible I don’t

00:11:56

think that within 4 years from all

00:12:00

questions, but I believe that in 4 years we

00:12:03

will achieve much greater clarity than

00:12:06

now and this clarity to a certain

00:12:08

extent will be due to the arrival of large

00:12:12

companies in the Crypto

00:12:14

space, for example, the success of etf Black Ro

00:12:18

and

00:12:19

Fidelite will accelerate the clarity associated

00:12:23

with whether Nask or other bizhi can

00:12:28

trade and when they will be able to

00:12:30

trade options, because already in this

00:12:33

direction there is interest in

00:12:36

whether the New York Stock Exchange will work

00:12:39

24/7 and it was created by Crypto

00:12:44

enthusiasts. Therefore, I believe that we will

00:12:47

see the evolution of the company of

00:12:49

traditional finance, I am sure that we

00:12:52

will see with there is a lot of lobbying towards

00:12:56

more

00:12:58

precise clarity and legal clarity

00:13:02

and we will also see a lot of new

00:13:05

new digital assets being created by companies

00:13:07

and also operators and companies of

00:13:10

traditional finance and traditional

00:13:13

accounting will be

00:13:15

modernizing systems to enable

00:13:17

and support this new

00:13:19

Bitcoin economy it will require a lot of money and

00:13:22

a lot of accountants and lawyers and also

00:13:25

a lot of thinking and

00:13:28

sometimes because of these actions I think the world

00:13:31

is going to be a much better place lately I

00:13:34

hear a lot about tokenization Do you think the

00:13:36

real assets of the world will be

00:13:41

toned with tokenization is a

00:13:44

political issue we need to get

00:13:47

rules for dealing with digital assets

00:13:49

that will be accepted and what the

00:13:52

European Union does. What the US does and what

00:13:56

jurisdictions like Brazil or

00:13:59

Singapore do will determine how quickly

00:14:01

the industry will grow. And also the

00:14:03

direction in which we will go now, I

00:14:05

think it’s too early to talk about this, I think

00:14:08

that many people look at Bitcoin as an

00:14:09

insurance certificate and if we dill

00:14:12

the picture and look at what is

00:14:13

happening in the macro situation and also

00:14:15

what you mentioned about the remaining high

00:14:17

cost of capital high interest rates

00:14:19

and inflation how does the corporation view it

00:14:21

this week we had an announcement about

00:14:23

that Jan's wife is very concerned about the growing

00:14:26

deficit corporations are worried about the

00:14:28

deficit should they think of

00:14:30

Bitcoin as a certificate of insurance

00:14:32

I think most

00:14:35

corporations are mired in

00:14:38

competition in terms of

00:14:41

production most companies

00:14:43

have either a very competitive

00:14:45

market environment or a service market So

00:14:48

mission number one for most

00:14:50

it is to create the best

00:14:52

product or service very often the second

00:14:54

mission for them is how will I

00:14:57

do this effectively in the background they are

00:14:59

constantly changing technology And as soon as

00:15:02

the web appeared or when the Internet of

00:15:04

money appeared they look at it and say

00:15:06

now there is a 2% commission but can I

00:15:09

get a 0.1% commission here and they will

00:15:13

discover a new technology to

00:15:16

save money, or if we

00:15:19

take for example a platform that supports

00:15:22

Bitcoin This is a new technology

00:15:24

that provides 10 billion per year on the sale of a

00:15:27

top product benefit differentiation

00:15:30

in their products So differentiation

00:15:32

or savings is a good approach but

00:15:35

also from the balance sheet side You have a

00:15:38

whole set of

00:15:40

financial actions that they

00:15:42

carry out Responding to interest

00:15:45

rates if the interest rate leads to

00:15:47

zero They change their balance sheet when the

00:15:50

interest rate skyrockets the

00:15:53

company moves in the other direction and

00:15:55

of course, they react to the actions of

00:15:57

shareholders if the shareholders say

00:15:59

Give us back our money with a buyback or in the

00:16:01

form of dividends, they are forced to

00:16:03

react to this too, but through all these

00:16:06

actions an orange wave breaks through and an

00:16:10

orange wave, of course, significant

00:16:12

Bitcoin, spreading across the capital market

00:16:16

through dozens of public companies that

00:16:17

are miners come through

00:16:20

companies such as microstrategy

00:16:22

Tesla block coinbase they are all interested

00:16:25

in Bitcoin it is

00:16:27

distributed in almost a dozen

00:16:30

American etfs And now we

00:16:33

have etfs of Hong Kong And soon we will

00:16:36

have ITF Australia and then in

00:16:39

Europe and as all

00:16:42

this spreads they increase capital and

00:16:44

as their results surpass gold and

00:16:47

snp with bonds they make

00:16:50

headlines which causes them to appear on

00:16:52

issues of cnbc blom and business this in

00:16:57

turn begins to raise questions in the minds of

00:17:00

financial advisors of some

00:17:02

institutional investors and they

00:17:04

begin to talk to other financial

00:17:06

directors So I think the

00:17:08

orange tide is spreading wider. I

00:17:12

think corporations and especially publicly

00:17:14

traded corporations will tend to

00:17:17

stay on the conservative side, but

00:17:19

we will likely start to see

00:17:21

institutional investors moving

00:17:23

ahead of corporations, we will see

00:17:26

sovereign wealth funds moving ahead of

00:17:28

states, and private companies moving

00:17:30

ahead of public companies. But

00:17:34

you know, there is no way to stop an idea

00:17:37

whose time has come and the success of this idea will

00:17:41

strive to grab a piece of

00:17:45

capital on the market, it’s not for nothing that we call it

00:17:47

market capital, capital strives

00:17:50

to where it can get the greatest

00:17:52

profits, where it can flourish better.

00:17:55

So, as capital relocates and the fact

00:17:58

that the industry sees this, which means the

00:18:00

overtone window is shifting Yes, the community

00:18:03

is striving for real money, recently

00:18:05

speaking at Kina you said that it is

00:18:07

very important for corporations to accept

00:18:10

Bitcoin, a company is people, sometimes you

00:18:13

only see a name brand, logos, but but

00:18:16

these are people and people need Bitcoin and I

00:18:18

really liked the statement that

00:18:20

literally everyone supported. It was

00:18:22

a story and you said that Bitcoin is for everyone.

00:18:24

What would you like to say in conclusion from the

00:18:26

point of view of Where we

00:18:27

are now and before the institutions

00:18:30

go all out, maybe there will be a smooth

00:18:33

transition before a sharp one and maybe that something

00:18:34

else You would like to add in this regard

00:18:36

I think that Looking at the last 15 years you

00:18:40

can say well from 2009 to

00:18:44

2020 This was the period when the Crypto cowboy

00:18:47

from the offshore crazy wild times

00:18:52

of time when the situation of the ancestors dominated first of all

00:18:55

I think that with

00:18:59

20 years ago, those were really

00:19:02

crazy times. We had this

00:19:05

Covid lockdown, zero interest rates,

00:19:10

and at this time you start to see

00:19:12

how fidelit in the market became much more

00:19:15

noticeable, lithium came out coinbase, it became

00:19:18

public, all bitcoin miners became

00:19:20

public, microstrategy adopted a

00:19:22

strategy for Bitcoin and you know TFR became a

00:19:28

block appeared

00:19:30

Cap grew by leaps and bounds Tesla

00:19:33

bought Bitcoin it was a crazy

00:19:37

transition period when when everyone did

00:19:40

n’t even understand where it was all going in

00:19:44

2024 the era of corporate

00:19:47

adoption of institutional adoption

00:19:50

of Bitcoin began now this is the tension between Is

00:19:54

it for corporations

00:19:57

Is Is this for institutional or

00:19:59

only for retail offshores? This

00:20:01

phenomenon came to a conclusion in January and by the

00:20:04

end of

00:20:05

2024 everything will be quite clear. The

00:20:08

next 4 years are the early

00:20:10

period of corporate and

00:20:12

institutional expansion, this is the

00:20:14

period when Black Rock can go

00:20:17

from Nothing to owning hundreds of

00:20:19

billions of dollars. in Bitcoin this is a

00:20:22

struggle for who will provide the IF and

00:20:25

this is the period when we will see

00:20:29

how some of the largest banks, banks in

00:20:32

South America or say banks in Europe

00:20:35

or the USA will become custodians of Bitcoin But

00:20:39

which of them and which will become the leader we

00:20:41

will find out by 2028 this is still ahead So that

00:20:45

this is an era that will show us the emergence of

00:20:48

large corporations accepting Bitcoin

00:20:51

as a treasury asset to store

00:20:54

value and this will become

00:20:57

more and more common,

00:20:59

we will see the emergence of

00:21:01

203,100 companies at least somewhat

00:21:04

related to Bitcoin and I think by 2028 from

00:21:09

2028 maybe until the fortieth last

00:21:12

12 years These will become years of pure

00:21:16

growth, we will see that everything is already working to some

00:21:19

extent, we will have

00:21:23

95% clarity because it works and

00:21:27

these will become years of growth I think

00:21:30

K4 Bitcoin will turn 30 years old And now

00:21:35

we are still We are at 15 While we are, as it were, in

00:21:37

teenage childhood And the next 15 years

00:21:41

will take us from being a teenager to

00:21:43

adulthood, it will be like the first 30

00:21:45

years of the development of the Internet, that’s right, and from

00:21:48

that moment this industry will become

00:21:51

growing, it will be quite mature To

00:21:53

ensure sustainable adulthood and then

00:21:56

every corporation will expect to

00:21:58

work with him, everyone will understand him and he

00:22:01

will no longer be so crazy exotic

00:22:04

complex and all that will be simply

00:22:07

incredible at that time to go back

00:22:09

and look at how people created and

00:22:12

invented the necessary applications created an

00:22:14

interface for interaction between companies you

00:22:17

said 333 mil corporations all over the world

00:22:19

like that in general there are a lot of cues

00:22:22

Michael Big

00:22:24

[music]

00:22:27

thank you A

00:22:29

[music]

Description:

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