background top icon
background center wave icon
background filled rhombus icon
background two lines icon
background stroke rhombus icon
header logo icon

Download "Secrets of Dragon Man ~ with PROFESSOR CHRIS STRINGER"

input logo icon
"videoThumbnail Secrets of Dragon Man ~ with PROFESSOR CHRIS STRINGER
Table of contents
|

Table of contents

0:00
START
2:00
Chris' background
6:35
The story of Dragon Man
11:21
Co-existing hominids
21:56
Proteomics
26:31
Where did all the hominids go?
34:26
Upcoming projects
Similar videos from our catalog
|

Similar videos from our catalog

Video tags
|

Video tags

evolutionsoup
evolution
paleontology
dinosaurs
Darwin
fossils
Neanderthal
australopithecus
science
anthropology
paleoanthropology
archaeology
Homo longi
Dragon Man
Harbin
dragonman
Subtitles
|

Subtitles

subtitles menu arrow
  • ruRussian
Download
00:00:01
foreign
00:00:03
[Music]
00:00:22
Professor Chris Stringer thanks so much
00:00:24
for coming on to Evolution soup from
00:00:26
your office in Kent here in the UK you
00:00:29
are a researcher in human evolution
00:00:30
Department of Earth Sciences in the
00:00:33
Natural History Museum in London
00:00:35
specializing in human Origins you are
00:00:37
also the author of several books
00:00:39
including our human story now out in a
00:00:42
brand new edition and a featured in
00:00:44
countless documentaries and specials
00:00:46
talking about new finds in human Origins
00:00:50
well welcome to the show Chris you uh
00:00:52
you always seem to be traveling or
00:00:54
recording interviews for television so
00:00:57
what is the past several days been like
00:00:59
for you busy or uh relatively quiet week
00:01:02
at the office
00:01:03
yes I'll be in the museum on Wednesday
00:01:06
and at the moment I'm working on some
00:01:09
Publications so working on a big review
00:01:11
paper about dating fossil human remains
00:01:15
trying to get uh a couple of projects
00:01:18
moving on at the Museum including one on
00:01:21
proteomics which we may talk about a bit
00:01:24
later
00:01:25
and I'm also you know generally helping
00:01:28
the collections staff at the Museum get
00:01:31
some of the collections in better order
00:01:34
um a bit of recuration work helping my
00:01:36
colleagues
00:01:41
[Music]
00:01:43
thank you
00:01:44
[Music]
00:01:50
[Music]
00:02:00
well today we'll be talking about the
00:02:02
new human species homolongi also known
00:02:05
as Dragon man revealed to the public in
00:02:07
2021 but before we step into his world
00:02:10
of 146 000 years ago let's just hear a
00:02:14
little bit about Where it All Began for
00:02:16
you you've been at London's Natural
00:02:18
History Museum since the 1970s but what
00:02:21
about growing up um were you always
00:02:23
fascinated by science and human Origins
00:02:28
well like like many children uh today I
00:02:31
was fascinated by fossils by prehistoric
00:02:33
life dinosaurs of course but also humans
00:02:37
and so uh you know my parents when I was
00:02:40
five or so took me to the Natural
00:02:42
History Museum and I remember seeing the
00:02:44
displays about human evolution and being
00:02:46
very interested and and there was one by
00:02:48
about pilt down man which said that the
00:02:50
cases were under rearrangement and that
00:02:53
was of course when the forgery had just
00:02:55
been revealed so um so yeah I can
00:02:58
remember visiting the museum way back
00:03:00
um and being interested in human
00:03:01
evolution and I collected fossils when I
00:03:05
went to beaches where there were fossils
00:03:06
I I would try and find some
00:03:09
um and I did a project on neanderthals
00:03:11
when I was uh you know aged about nine
00:03:15
at Junior School
00:03:18
um and that was inspired by some BBC
00:03:21
Radio broadcasts that I'd heard
00:03:24
um one of which was about the
00:03:25
Neanderthals so I wrote this project on
00:03:27
neanderthals and pictures of skull and
00:03:30
evolutionary trees it would all be
00:03:32
pretty hopeless now of course if I could
00:03:34
see it sadly that project got lost but I
00:03:37
maintained that interest in in human
00:03:38
evolution but I never realized when it
00:03:42
came to Career talk no one at school
00:03:43
ever told me that you could actually get
00:03:46
a career in this area
00:03:49
um so I'd never heard of anthropology as
00:03:52
a subject at University that's our
00:03:53
limited you know I was from stem
00:03:55
background with you know limited career
00:03:58
choices so I was advised if I was bright
00:04:00
and got the right A Levels that go into
00:04:03
medical school or something like that
00:04:04
would be the thing and so yeah I was
00:04:07
gearing up to train to be a doctor I had
00:04:09
a place at medical school and then at
00:04:11
the last minute
00:04:13
um I found out about a subject called
00:04:14
anthropology so to the puzzlement of my
00:04:18
teachers and the concerns of my parents
00:04:20
I
00:04:22
actually fixed up an interview at
00:04:24
University College in London for an
00:04:27
anthropology degree instead of a medical
00:04:28
degree and they offered me a place and
00:04:31
to my parents credit they they said well
00:04:34
if you're if that's really what you want
00:04:35
to do okay we'll back you to do that
00:04:38
so I went to UCL did anthropology
00:04:42
when I finished there in 1969 it was a
00:04:45
bad year to try and move on to anything
00:04:47
further things like phds were very
00:04:49
difficult to fund at that time but I was
00:04:52
actually offered a temporary post at the
00:04:54
Natural History Museum even in 1969. so
00:04:57
that was great preparation for me I was
00:04:59
a temporary you know curator at the
00:05:03
museum for nearly a year
00:05:06
and that really familiar myself with the
00:05:09
fossils and uh you know it helped me to
00:05:11
plan for a PhD in more detail and then
00:05:14
luckily a year later I was offered a PhD
00:05:17
place at Bristol University in the
00:05:19
anatomy Department
00:05:21
to work with a guy called Jonathan
00:05:23
Musgrave and he had done a PhD on
00:05:26
Neanderthal ham bones going around
00:05:28
Europe looking at the ham bones of
00:05:30
Neanderthals and he took me on as a PhD
00:05:33
student and so with his help I was able
00:05:36
to organize a trip to visit the European
00:05:39
museums to look at their fossils but
00:05:41
this time looking at the skulls so I was
00:05:43
going to compare the cranial shape of
00:05:45
Neanderthals and that of homo sapiens
00:05:49
particularly the fossil Homo sapiens in
00:05:51
Europe to see where the Neanderthals
00:05:53
were our ancestors in terms of their
00:05:55
cranial shape did they make good
00:05:57
ancestors for our species which was the
00:05:59
leading idea at the time and my data at
00:06:02
the end of the PHD in
00:06:04
1973-74 suggested the Neanderthals did
00:06:07
not make good ancestors for Homo sapiens
00:06:09
so I couldn't say where our ancestors
00:06:11
were but I was pretty sure we didn't
00:06:13
evolve from the European neanderthals so
00:06:16
I took that work to the museum in 1973
00:06:20
at the end of 1973 I was offered a
00:06:22
position there to go back and yeah I've
00:06:25
been there ever since so continuing that
00:06:27
work and expanding it of course not just
00:06:29
in Europe but to look more globally
00:06:31
about the evolution of homo sapiens
00:06:34
well it was only recently in 2021 that
00:06:37
and apparently new human species was
00:06:39
described and announced to the world
00:06:41
homo longi or Dragon man found in
00:06:44
Northeast China Chris what is the story
00:06:47
behind Dragon man yes I mean the origins
00:06:50
of the fossil are are murky it's a
00:06:53
beautifully reserved fossil Cranium
00:06:55
almost complete although it's lost
00:06:58
almost all its teeth they fell out long
00:07:00
ago but it's beautifully preserved the
00:07:02
best preserved ancient uh fossil human
00:07:05
from from East Asia and I was fortunate
00:07:08
enough to be invited to work with
00:07:10
Johnny's colleagues on publishing the
00:07:12
first description and now of this lovely
00:07:15
Cranium so as far as we know the story
00:07:19
goes that the cranium was actually
00:07:21
discovered in 1933
00:07:23
when Japanese occupiers were occupying
00:07:27
this part of northeastern China
00:07:29
and they requisitioned coerced a group
00:07:34
of laborers Chinese laborers to work on
00:07:37
building a new bridge Acro
00:07:39
[Music]
00:07:40
SS at Harbin in northeastern China and
00:07:43
apparently during that work
00:07:46
the Workman found a disputed for
00:07:48
observed Cranium they didn't want it to
00:07:49
fall into the hands of the Japanese so
00:07:52
one of the workmen took it home wrapped
00:07:54
it up and put it down a well
00:07:57
which is traditionally a place that
00:08:00
Chinese people stored their Treasures
00:08:02
town of tissues well so allegedly it
00:08:06
stayed there for some 80 years and then
00:08:08
the man near the end of his life finally
00:08:10
told his family to look down the well
00:08:12
where they recovered the fossil he died
00:08:15
so not around to talk about the
00:08:18
Discovery at the time it went public and
00:08:21
why he didn't report it earlier well
00:08:23
apparently there was obviously a sense
00:08:26
of shame in having worked for the
00:08:27
Japanese occupiers so this was a reason
00:08:29
to keep quiet about it now this is you
00:08:32
know the story that's come down to us
00:08:33
but obviously you know we'd like to know
00:08:36
much more about the circumstances where
00:08:38
did it originally come from and so we're
00:08:41
also conducting work in the region to
00:08:43
try and pin down more about the history
00:08:46
of this fossil so I think there's still
00:08:47
more to come out about this this story
00:08:50
um but that's what we've got at the
00:08:51
moment and so we did conduct isotope
00:08:54
studies on the fossil to compare it with
00:08:57
fossils from the region and from other
00:08:59
parts of China and those studies at
00:09:01
least supported the view that it came
00:09:03
from the harbor region and we dated the
00:09:07
fossil Itself by uranium series dating
00:09:09
to at least
00:09:11
146 000 years old so it's that's its
00:09:14
minimum age it could be some way older
00:09:16
than that but it's at least that age
00:09:18
so that's the basic story
00:09:21
um and it came into the hands of
00:09:23
Professor G crang
00:09:25
um and he obviously you know he's an
00:09:29
expert on things like dinosaurs so he
00:09:31
recruited other colleagues eventually
00:09:33
including me to describe the fossil and
00:09:36
it was published in three papers we did
00:09:40
a paper describing the fossil Cranium
00:09:42
and comparing it with others and that
00:09:45
included a final genetic analysis to try
00:09:47
and place it in evolutionary terms
00:09:49
and then there was a second paper about
00:09:52
the isotope studies and the dating of
00:09:54
the fossil and then there was a third
00:09:56
paper by a smaller group of Chinese
00:09:58
colleagues which is the one that named
00:10:01
it homolongi uh dragon man named after
00:10:04
the Dragon River Province uh it's a
00:10:06
great name uh homelandi but actually my
00:10:09
name wasn't on that paper I prefer to
00:10:12
name this fossil
00:10:13
homodaliensis because there's another
00:10:15
fossil from China from Dali
00:10:18
probably a bit older than the uh a
00:10:21
dragon man fossil but our analysis
00:10:23
showed that they were part of the same
00:10:25
clay part of the same evolutionary group
00:10:27
and there is a name for Dolly already
00:10:30
homodoliensis not my used but that name
00:10:33
is there so in my view it's better to
00:10:37
assign the dragon man skull into that
00:10:39
homo daliensis group rather than create
00:10:41
another species name but I'm very happy
00:10:45
to use Dragon man as a common name for
00:10:47
it but I prefer to give it the species
00:10:49
name homodeliensis which for me
00:10:51
represents this group of Chinese fossils
00:10:55
which are kind of like the counterparts
00:10:56
of homo sapiens and homonyms and in
00:10:59
China we've got homodoliensis
00:11:02
and we're talking 146 000 years old was
00:11:06
the dating that's the minimum age yes so
00:11:08
it's at least that age it could be older
00:11:10
and obviously part of our work will be
00:11:12
to try and get even better dating on the
00:11:14
fossil as time goes on so this was only
00:11:17
preliminary work and there's a lot more
00:11:19
to do on this fossil
00:11:20
Chris we can't really talk about this
00:11:23
new species unless we examine its
00:11:25
relationship to other hominid species
00:11:28
that coexisted with it in Asia we have
00:11:31
neanderthals denisovans and Homo sapiens
00:11:34
existing at the same time as Dragon man
00:11:37
so how does the presence of these other
00:11:40
species impact our understanding of
00:11:43
almost
00:11:44
well that's a very good question and
00:11:46
obviously it's something we're still
00:11:48
working on
00:11:49
um what our final genetic analysis
00:11:51
showed that if we use all the data we
00:11:54
have on the fossils and so we had up to
00:11:57
600 bits bits of data available for the
00:12:00
fossils that we were looking at and
00:12:03
putting those into a phylogenetic
00:12:04
analysis to build the most parsimonious
00:12:07
trees the ones with the least
00:12:09
evolutionary steps the least
00:12:11
evolutionary changes gave us essentially
00:12:14
three later pleistocene groups one of
00:12:19
the most Homo sapiens and that included
00:12:22
obviously recent humans recent fossils
00:12:25
and fossils in Africa that go back to
00:12:28
about 300 000 years so there was a homo
00:12:31
sapiens clade the group
00:12:34
um and then there was a neanderthal
00:12:36
played and that contained The Familiar
00:12:39
Neanderthal fossils that we've got from
00:12:41
places like France and Germany and it
00:12:43
included some earlier neanderthals and
00:12:46
it also included the material from
00:12:48
ataporeca from the SEMA Del suesos in
00:12:51
Spain that's over 400 000 years old so
00:12:54
those were all in a neanderthal clade
00:12:57
and then there was a third clade which
00:13:00
contained a number of Chinese fossils it
00:13:03
included the Harbin Cranium it included
00:13:06
Dali it included uh the uh jirushan
00:13:10
specimen and it even included his
00:13:12
jawbone from the Tibetan platter of
00:13:15
China from jahei which has been thought
00:13:18
to be a denisovan so we had this Chinese
00:13:21
clade
00:13:22
alongside the homo sapiens one and the
00:13:25
Neanderthal one and what was interesting
00:13:27
is if we Trace those phenogenies back to
00:13:30
their roots and this is in the
00:13:32
publication so you can find these
00:13:33
phylogenous there and most parsimonious
00:13:36
grouping actually had the Harbin clay
00:13:39
grouping with the homo sapiens clade
00:13:42
before they both joined the Neanderthal
00:13:45
clade so in other words the on our
00:13:47
analysis the Harbin clay was the sister
00:13:49
species of homo sapiens and then the
00:13:52
Neanderthals were a further outgroup now
00:13:55
beyond that there were the things which
00:13:58
I've called Homer Heidi burgensis or
00:14:00
homorody ziensis things like the cranium
00:14:04
from cabway in in Zambia uh petrolona
00:14:07
from Greece Bodo from Ethiopia those
00:14:10
were a further out group to the three
00:14:12
clades I've mentioned and then beyond
00:14:14
them were the homo erectus fossils uh
00:14:17
things from Africa from java and from
00:14:21
China
00:14:22
so this was an interesting thing that
00:14:23
actually the harbing clay seemed to be
00:14:25
slightly more closely related to Homo
00:14:28
sapiens than it was to the Neanderthals
00:14:31
and Chris what are the uh the main
00:14:33
features that differentiate each of
00:14:35
those groups
00:14:37
well in the cranium which of course is
00:14:39
you know the focus of our study uh Homo
00:14:41
sapiens
00:14:43
um as is well known you know we've got a
00:14:44
high and rounded brain case we've got
00:14:47
small brow ridges or non-existent brow
00:14:49
Ridges at the front we've got a face
00:14:52
with a relatively small nose a face
00:14:54
that's transversely flat and that's
00:14:57
tucked under the brain case uh quite you
00:15:01
know it's retracted under the brain case
00:15:02
not projecting on the lower jaw we've
00:15:05
got a chin unfortunately we don't have
00:15:07
that preserve for Dragon man
00:15:09
um and there are distinctive features
00:15:11
even in things like the ear bones but we
00:15:13
don't have that data for Dragon man so
00:15:15
for Homo sapiens there's really quite a
00:15:17
distinctive sculpture very recognizable
00:15:19
in homicide
00:15:21
to an extent in some of those African
00:15:24
fossils I mentioned and then we've got
00:15:26
the Neanderthal Clyde and again you know
00:15:29
our analyzes picked up on the the usual
00:15:32
Neanderthal features so there the
00:15:34
cranium is longer and lower more
00:15:36
primitive in that sense with still this
00:15:38
big brow Ridge at the front
00:15:41
um the face though is very distinctive
00:15:43
it's it's the middle of it is pulled
00:15:45
forwards
00:15:46
this is very large nose and a wide nose
00:15:49
the cheekbones are swept back your front
00:15:53
teeth are really quite large relatively
00:15:55
big teeth incisors not much of a chin at
00:15:59
all on the lower jaw and when you look
00:16:01
at the shape of the cranium I didn't
00:16:03
mention for Homo sapiens that our crania
00:16:05
is kind of wider up here it's expanded
00:16:09
in the upper parietal region but for the
00:16:11
Neanderthals the cranial shape is almost
00:16:13
spherical it almost looks like a
00:16:15
football wind view from you know rugby
00:16:17
ball yeah well rugby ball in the side
00:16:20
view of the side view in in the rear
00:16:23
view
00:16:24
um so now by comparison the Chinese
00:16:28
Group which included Harbin had a kind
00:16:31
of distinctive combination of features
00:16:33
so the long low cranial walk was there
00:16:36
that we find in neanderthals very strong
00:16:38
brow Ridge actually bigger than
00:16:40
typically we find in Neanderthal fossil
00:16:44
um but the face was much more like a
00:16:46
homo sapiens face it was transversely
00:16:49
flat with quite delicate cheekbones a
00:16:51
very wider nose have to be said very big
00:16:54
orbits distinctive there
00:16:57
um but the face was also tucked under
00:16:58
the cranial Vault uh in a way that we
00:17:01
find in Homo sapiens so it's an unusual
00:17:03
combination of features and I should
00:17:05
mention that there's only one tooth
00:17:07
preserved in the Harvard specimen an
00:17:09
upper molar but it's huge with displayed
00:17:12
roots and that's distinct from both Homo
00:17:15
sapiens and from from the Neanderthals
00:17:17
and when we look at the out groups if
00:17:20
you can call them that things like comma
00:17:21
what I'd call homo rhodesiansis fossils
00:17:24
they're more primitive in some ways they
00:17:27
generally have big brow ridges
00:17:30
um they have a long low skull but less
00:17:32
expanded generally a smaller brain size
00:17:34
than we find in the groups are already
00:17:37
mentioned the back of the skull is
00:17:39
flexed the occipital bone is flexed
00:17:42
inside view and it's got a ridge of bone
00:17:44
across the across it called the
00:17:46
occipital Taurus so that's a more
00:17:48
primitive feature in rhodesiansis
00:17:50
fossils that we also find in Homo
00:17:53
erectus fossils and the erectus group
00:17:55
are even more primitive and I should say
00:17:57
for the rhodesians fossil the faces is
00:18:00
pulled out more
00:18:01
and it's bigger relatively so a more
00:18:05
primitive morphology generally in in
00:18:07
rhodesiansis for erectus and even more
00:18:10
primitive morphology
00:18:12
usually a smaller brain size really
00:18:14
relatively big ground which is very
00:18:16
poorly expanded brain case very wide at
00:18:19
the base and a face that's more
00:18:20
projecting overall compared with the
00:18:23
other species so that's a summary of
00:18:26
some of the features of these groups so
00:18:29
I suppose Chris when you first saw the
00:18:31
dragon man uh partial skull you could
00:18:33
right away I suppose you could see uh
00:18:35
that reminds me of that older group and
00:18:37
this reminds me of of this later group
00:18:39
and you could sort of uh you could get a
00:18:41
picture that way so yes I mean it was a
00:18:44
strange combination of features and I've
00:18:46
actually got on YouTube a video giving
00:18:48
my first reactions to the fossil the day
00:18:51
that I saw this beautiful replica of it
00:18:53
that uh was brought to me by my Chinese
00:18:55
colleagues
00:18:56
um and I remember thinking in a way it
00:18:59
was a little bit reminiscent of a very
00:19:01
primitive Homo sapiens fossil such as
00:19:03
ghiblihood from Africa and the one
00:19:06
that's about 300 000 years old and I
00:19:08
remember thinking it reminds me a bit of
00:19:10
like Jeb liquid on steroids if you can
00:19:12
imagine you know that African fossil
00:19:14
pumped up with a great big brow region
00:19:16
more primitive look it almost reminded
00:19:19
me of that
00:19:20
um so it was this strange combination of
00:19:21
features already I could see where you
00:19:23
had a rather moderating face and a
00:19:25
retracted face but this long low brain
00:19:28
case with this grapey brow Ridge so a
00:19:30
striking yeah quite distinctive look to
00:19:32
it and and it's huge I didn't mentioned
00:19:33
the size of the fossil it's the biggest
00:19:37
humor fossil I've ever seen it's it's an
00:19:39
enormous Cranium
00:19:41
um bigger than typically you know any of
00:19:43
the other Homo sapiens Neanderthal
00:19:45
rhodesiansis ones some of those are big
00:19:47
but this Dragon man fossil is huge so
00:19:50
you know this guy and we assume it's a
00:19:52
man we can't sex it right I believe but
00:19:55
um this was a huge person the rest of
00:19:57
his body must have been built on a
00:19:58
similar scale and Chris what about the
00:20:01
the environment that uh that homologi
00:20:04
lived in I mean what would even have had
00:20:05
to cope with
00:20:07
yeah so because of this we don't know
00:20:10
the exact site that he came from and the
00:20:12
associated animals we don't know if he
00:20:15
lived in a relatively warm or cold
00:20:16
period but what we can say is that
00:20:19
Harbin today uh even today has extremely
00:20:22
cold Winters it's good one of the
00:20:25
coldest places in China in the winter
00:20:27
and they even have an Ice Festival where
00:20:29
there where they build ice sculptures
00:20:30
and leave them there for a month
00:20:33
um and so the average winter temperature
00:20:35
in summer months today is minus 15
00:20:38
Centigrade that's the average in some of
00:20:41
the winter temperatures so it could have
00:20:44
been even colder in the past if if
00:20:46
Dragon man lived during a cold stage you
00:20:48
could have been even colder but even on
00:20:50
today's Winters
00:20:51
these people were living in extreme cold
00:20:54
in the winter
00:20:55
colder than we know of definitely for
00:20:58
the Neanderthals so I suspect that this
00:21:01
large head size of Harbin goes with
00:21:04
probably a very big body a very short
00:21:06
wide body probably adapting these people
00:21:09
to the cold conditions because you
00:21:10
minimize your loss of cold by having a
00:21:13
short bulky sort of round body so that's
00:21:16
probably the body shape that these
00:21:18
people had and who knows they may have
00:21:20
had insulated layers of fat they may
00:21:23
have had more body hair they may well
00:21:26
have had cultural adaptations wearing
00:21:29
clothing having the use of fire and so
00:21:32
on so there's a lot to learn about these
00:21:34
people to come but they certainly were
00:21:36
coping at times with extremely cold
00:21:38
conditions
00:21:39
it must be frustrating for a
00:21:41
paleoanthropologist like yourself Chris
00:21:42
not to have a time machine
00:21:45
I just want to have a look sometimes
00:21:47
absolutely there are some critical times
00:21:49
I'd love to go back to to see what was
00:21:51
really happening compared with what how
00:21:53
we reconstruct it yeah
00:21:56
well until quite recently
00:21:57
paleoanthropology relied mostly on the
00:22:00
fossil record to make determinations but
00:22:03
today we live in the world of DNA
00:22:05
extraction and DNA testing although
00:22:08
extremely useful in understanding
00:22:10
ancient species it has its limitations
00:22:12
but new techniques are coming to light
00:22:15
almost every year and this includes
00:22:18
something called proteomics isn't that
00:22:21
right yes so DNA's been wonderful and
00:22:25
it's given us so much extra information
00:22:26
about human evolution and that's
00:22:29
something that I'm involved in work on
00:22:30
with with my colleagues at the Museum
00:22:32
and you you talk to my colleague Selena
00:22:34
brace from ancient DNA and so that's
00:22:38
tremendous and it has a lot to offer us
00:22:41
but one of the problems with DNA work is
00:22:44
that the further you go back in time
00:22:46
the DNA is is much less well preserved
00:22:49
and particularly in warmer conditions is
00:22:52
generally preserves very badly so we
00:22:54
have got some ancient human DNA from the
00:22:57
SEMA delosos at over 400 000 years old
00:23:00
it's not a complete anywhere near a
00:23:02
complete genome it's bits of DNA and
00:23:05
we're lucky to have that that was found
00:23:07
deep in a cave system and preserved for
00:23:09
that reason but mostly we don't have DNA
00:23:12
from fossils
00:23:13
um there's been an attempt to get DNA
00:23:15
from from the Harmon fossil and it's not
00:23:17
been successful as far as I know
00:23:20
um I mentioned a jaw bone from the
00:23:21
Tibetan plateau of China from xiaohi and
00:23:26
that Jawbone was tested for DNA and it
00:23:28
didn't have any it was at least 150 000
00:23:31
years old but what they did find with
00:23:34
that fossil from zhai was that there
00:23:36
were tiny bits of protein preserved so
00:23:39
proteins of course are the products of
00:23:41
our DNA they're the things that that
00:23:43
work in our body things like enzymes
00:23:45
things like insulin these kinds of
00:23:48
things obviously have their own genetic
00:23:52
code and we can look at their amino acid
00:23:54
composition if they're preserved and so
00:23:57
what scientists are doing now is is
00:23:59
looking for proteins in fossils and we
00:24:01
know these preserve much better um some
00:24:04
cases for many million
00:24:06
million so although they're less
00:24:07
informative if we can get enough
00:24:09
evidence we can still build up a
00:24:12
database to compare let's say the
00:24:15
harbing group with Homo sapiens with the
00:24:17
Neanderthals potentially with homo
00:24:19
radiciensis potentially with Homo
00:24:21
erectus and even earlier human-like
00:24:24
forms so the hope is that proteomics in
00:24:27
the next few years will develop into a
00:24:29
field that gives us a much deeper Reach
00:24:32
In Time although with less information
00:24:34
in each case than we have for for the
00:24:37
genomes but still informative about
00:24:39
relationships and the interesting thing
00:24:41
is that the bit of protein that was
00:24:43
found in the jahei Jawbone linked it
00:24:46
with the genisivans rather than with the
00:24:48
Neanderthals or Homo sapiens so that
00:24:51
Jawbone provisionally is identified as a
00:24:54
Denison but it was only a tiny bit of
00:24:56
genetic information in the form of of
00:24:59
some bits of protein so
00:25:01
The Way Forward is to get more and more
00:25:03
data and gradually we can build up a
00:25:05
network comparing these fossils
00:25:07
beyond the reach of DNA so it's got
00:25:10
great promise and I'm involved in a
00:25:12
project to work on our fossils at the
00:25:15
Museum and hopefully some of those will
00:25:17
have protein information and will be
00:25:19
able to start building a database to
00:25:22
compare them and hopefully the dragon
00:25:24
mount fossil will have preserved
00:25:26
proteins and that may help us place it
00:25:28
in relation to other human forms
00:25:31
and this uh all relates to your upcoming
00:25:34
uh collaboration with the Crick
00:25:36
Institute
00:25:37
that's right yes I have a project with a
00:25:39
couple of colleagues at the creek
00:25:40
Institute
00:25:42
um and we hope very much that obviously
00:25:44
it's going to yield fruit in terms of
00:25:46
data from uh some of our Museum fossils
00:25:49
but we're just starting that project now
00:25:50
uh but watch this space maybe invite me
00:25:53
back in a couple of years time and I can
00:25:55
tell you if we've had
00:25:57
well maybe even going back to as far as
00:25:59
Lucy's time you know three million years
00:26:01
and beyond that would be amazing well
00:26:03
potentially yes
00:26:05
um there is protein material now from a
00:26:07
rhinoceros fossil that's nearly 2
00:26:09
million years old
00:26:10
so there is the potential there that it
00:26:13
will be there in more ancient fossils
00:26:15
because the good thing is there are
00:26:16
obviously a huge number of proteins in
00:26:19
in our bodies so you know they each have
00:26:21
their own probably you know preservation
00:26:23
potential but between all these proteins
00:26:26
we should find ones even in fossils that
00:26:29
are millions of years old
00:26:30
when people think of all the fascinating
00:26:32
hominid species that once existed and
00:26:35
coexisted on our planet we can't help
00:26:37
but wonder why our own species
00:26:40
is the only one left so I guess a
00:26:43
question that a lot of people ask you
00:26:44
Chris is
00:26:45
where did all those other species go
00:26:48
yes that is a question I asked very
00:26:51
often and it's it's a very difficult one
00:26:52
to answer we don't really have an answer
00:26:54
for it uh we can observe the fact that
00:26:57
there were at least five kinds of humans
00:26:58
around on the earth even 70 000 years
00:27:01
ago which is like yesterday
00:27:03
geologically speaking so we had been
00:27:05
evolving in Africa and the Neanderthals
00:27:07
have been evolving in Europe and Asia
00:27:08
the denisovans were over in the Far East
00:27:12
and Southeast Asia in Southeast Asia we
00:27:16
had these strange dwarf species uh
00:27:18
homophoresiensis on the island de Flores
00:27:20
and homologensis on Luzon in the
00:27:24
Philippines but Homo sapiens emerge from
00:27:27
Africa in a in a main dispersal about 60
00:27:31
000 years ago on genetic estimates and
00:27:34
that move out of Africa as well as
00:27:36
staying behind began the diversity of
00:27:39
homo sapiens as we know it today outside
00:27:42
of Africa and within 20 000 years of
00:27:45
that it seems that those other species
00:27:48
had gone physically extinct now we know
00:27:51
they hadn't gone completely extinct in
00:27:53
the case of the Neanderthals and
00:27:55
denisovans because there was
00:27:56
interbreeding before they went extinct
00:27:58
so people today have DNA from
00:28:01
neanderthals and DNA from Genesis in
00:28:04
their genomes but
00:28:06
those species physically disappeared and
00:28:08
why did they disappear why are we the
00:28:10
only survivors of all these experiments
00:28:13
if you like in how to be human
00:28:15
um it's it's a big question and some of
00:28:17
the leading ideas are that uh well
00:28:19
obviously one idea is that we kind of
00:28:21
killed them off and I don't think
00:28:23
there's any evidence for that
00:28:25
um and it certainly wasn't an instant
00:28:27
disappearance you know we overlapped
00:28:28
with the Neanderthals in Asia in
00:28:31
certainly in Western Asia potentially
00:28:33
for 20 000 years before they disappeared
00:28:36
um some people have suggested we might
00:28:38
have brought diseases from Africa that
00:28:40
they had no resistance to but equally
00:28:43
you could say that you know we wouldn't
00:28:45
have had resistance to the diseases that
00:28:47
were in Asia and and Europe when we went
00:28:50
into those areas and actually it
00:28:53
seems quite likely that our
00:28:55
interbreeding with the Neanderthals and
00:28:57
denisovans actually gave us advantages
00:28:59
because we gained some of the immune
00:29:02
system protection that the Neanderthals
00:29:05
and the disciplines had evolved and that
00:29:07
helped us in Moving Out of Africa so the
00:29:10
idea that an epidemic killed the
00:29:12
Neanderthals off seems very unlikely and
00:29:14
these populations of course were living
00:29:16
at very low density compared with the
00:29:18
greater densities of populations that we
00:29:21
think of in the last few thousand years
00:29:23
that are much more densely packed where
00:29:25
epidemics can can spread very rapidly so
00:29:28
I don't think that's likely to be an
00:29:30
explanation environmental change
00:29:32
certainly could have contributed because
00:29:35
we know the climates were very unstable
00:29:37
as Homo sapiens spread out between 40
00:29:41
and 60 000 years ago the climate of the
00:29:43
Earth was extremely unstable
00:29:45
fluctuating from relatively warm to
00:29:48
extremely cold
00:29:49
over and over again and that would have
00:29:52
meant destabilizing of the environment
00:29:55
but that would have affected Homo
00:29:56
sapiens as well so why was it that these
00:29:59
other species died out
00:30:01
um competition from Homo sapiens I think
00:30:04
that seems to be a factor uh there was
00:30:07
probably economic competition because
00:30:09
Homo sapiens of course would have had
00:30:11
the same lifestyle as the neem cells and
00:30:13
denisimans in terms of wanting to hunt
00:30:15
the same animals collect the same plant
00:30:16
resources wanting to live in the best
00:30:19
places so there could have been an
00:30:22
economic competition where Homo sapiens
00:30:24
had even a slight Advantage which over
00:30:27
thousands of years could have made a
00:30:29
difference and that Advantage could be
00:30:31
an advantage in some way some people
00:30:33
think cognitive you know Advantage uh
00:30:36
complex language a common more complex
00:30:38
system of communication greater
00:30:41
networking across the landscape
00:30:43
um between Homo sapiens groups because
00:30:46
what we do know is neanderthals were at
00:30:48
the end of their time it was the time
00:30:50
they were relatively low in numbers and
00:30:52
relatively low in diversity so in a
00:30:55
sense they could already have been a
00:30:56
threatened species and then another
00:30:58
human species comes to live alongside
00:31:00
them and competes with them and I think
00:31:03
actually the absorption of the
00:31:05
Neanderthals was probably a factor in
00:31:08
their in their demise as well that we
00:31:10
know that
00:31:11
individuals were joining the homo
00:31:13
sapiens groups we know that because
00:31:15
there's multiple evidence of
00:31:17
interbreeding between
00:31:19
neanderthals and Homo sapiens within the
00:31:21
homo sapiens groups so that means
00:31:23
Neanderthal Partners were joining those
00:31:26
Homo sapiens groups voluntarily or
00:31:28
involuntarily we don't know the
00:31:31
circumstances but that meant the
00:31:33
Neanderthals were therefore losing their
00:31:35
own prime age breeding individuals to
00:31:38
another species so that could have been
00:31:40
a contribution
00:31:42
um so yeah there are many explanations
00:31:44
around we don't know the full story but
00:31:46
I think it's like to be a combination of
00:31:48
features rather than a single thing but
00:31:50
I think the economic competition was
00:31:52
certainly a major factor
00:31:55
um and what's of course got to be
00:31:58
considered is not just The Disappearance
00:32:00
of Neanderthals we've got to also
00:32:02
explain the disagreeance of denisovans
00:32:03
and that's in a sense even more
00:32:05
difficult first of all we've got much
00:32:07
less data about that but also the
00:32:09
denisovans were widespread probably
00:32:12
across Eastern Asia and Southeast Asia
00:32:14
so they were certainly up in Siberia and
00:32:18
we think uh because the DNA of
00:32:21
denisimans is particularly prevalent
00:32:23
today in people in the Philippines in
00:32:26
New Guinea Australia and so on it's
00:32:29
likely that the denisovans were on the
00:32:31
islands of Southeast Asia and when Homo
00:32:34
sapiens came through there there was
00:32:36
interbreeding so the denisovans were
00:32:38
living in very cold conditions up in
00:32:40
places like Siberia
00:32:42
um possibly some people think Dragon man
00:32:44
could be a denisovan and that's
00:32:46
something we didn't talk about but it it
00:32:48
may well eventually turn out to be true
00:32:51
um because of course we've got this
00:32:53
strange situation on DNA evidence we've
00:32:55
got sapiens neanderthals and denisovans
00:32:58
in East Asia on morphology as I
00:33:01
mentioned our analysis showed sapiens
00:33:03
neanderthals and the Harvey clade so why
00:33:06
don't we just say the harman clay must
00:33:08
be denisovans well we don't have
00:33:11
strong evidence for them at the moment
00:33:13
it's certainly a possibility
00:33:15
um so the dinosaurs were living in cold
00:33:17
conditions in the north and you know
00:33:20
tropical and subtropical conditions at
00:33:22
the south of their range they were
00:33:24
genetically more varied than
00:33:25
neanderthals on the existing data we
00:33:27
have and yet they also just appeared
00:33:30
um in this 20 or 30 000 year period when
00:33:34
Homo sapiens came into the region and
00:33:36
eventually replaced them
00:33:38
um but they as a stress they did not go
00:33:41
completely extinct because a lot of
00:33:42
their genomes live on in us today both
00:33:45
Neanderthal and denisible
00:33:47
that's right I think Europeans have
00:33:50
three to four percent but uh and if you
00:33:52
look at uh people from the Philippines
00:33:54
you will find more Denise than DNA is
00:33:56
that correct yes so I think it's it's
00:33:58
about two percent in in most people
00:34:01
outside of Africa two percent neanderths
00:34:03
are in their D in their genomes but over
00:34:05
in yes in the Philippines and some parts
00:34:07
of australasia there's an additional
00:34:09
component of sometimes around four
00:34:12
percent of Denison DNA so in a sense
00:34:14
they've got that double dose of
00:34:16
integration both Neanderthal and
00:34:18
denisima so in total about six percent
00:34:21
of their genome would be coming from
00:34:23
these other human forms
00:34:25
Chris you've just released a new edition
00:34:27
of your book our human Story You've Been
00:34:30
Working on Dragon man as well as the
00:34:31
proteomic research now are there any
00:34:34
other projects that you're working on or
00:34:36
that are coming up that you can tell us
00:34:38
about
00:34:40
well yeah so
00:34:41
um we mentioned DNA work and on carrying
00:34:44
on working with uh Serena and Ian at the
00:34:47
Museum and and other colleagues in
00:34:49
working on DNA of ancient humans
00:34:53
I'm sure Selena she must have talked
00:34:55
about ched a man and the material from
00:34:57
pain in Somerset so as well as getting a
00:35:00
whole genome of an individual who lived
00:35:02
about 10 000 years ago were also trying
00:35:05
to get DNA from humans who were around
00:35:07
about 15 000 years ago associated with a
00:35:11
British version of the magdalenian
00:35:13
culture that we know of from the uh the
00:35:16
lake Paleolithic of Europe and these
00:35:18
people were living in Goss cave in
00:35:20
cheddar Gorge
00:35:22
um some of them were cannibalized so
00:35:24
they're they're famous or inFAMOUS for
00:35:26
that reason
00:35:27
um but we're starting to get DNA from
00:35:29
some of these individuals and we even
00:35:31
hope to have uh evidence of the
00:35:34
relationships of these individuals so if
00:35:36
we can get detailed enough data which is
00:35:39
being done for other sites now you can
00:35:41
start to actually build up kinship
00:35:42
relations of these individuals
00:35:45
um you know have you got siblings there
00:35:47
have you got parents and children so
00:35:49
this kind of work you know is is
00:35:51
happening in other sites and we hope to
00:35:53
get it working on some of these British
00:35:55
fossils I've also got a project on Cave
00:35:58
sediment DNA going on and this is
00:36:00
another thing we didn't get a chance to
00:36:02
talk about but what's interesting is
00:36:04
that of course most of the work we've
00:36:06
talked about so far is DNA from the
00:36:09
fossils themselves but the incredible
00:36:11
thing is that in the sediments of caves
00:36:14
and and potentially even of open sites
00:36:16
there could be DNA from uh humans that
00:36:20
lived there previously even if you don't
00:36:22
have their bones so in a cave if an
00:36:25
individual relieves themselves in the
00:36:27
cave if a woman gave birth in the cave
00:36:30
if an individual bit of him was dragged
00:36:33
in by a hyena or her were Dragged In by
00:36:35
a hyena and everything else dissolves
00:36:37
away there could still be traces of DNA
00:36:40
in the cave sediment so this has been
00:36:43
worked on increasingly and there are
00:36:45
some sites where there's actually more
00:36:48
evidence of Early Humans from the case
00:36:49
sediment DNA than there is from the
00:36:51
fossils so potentially we can find DNA
00:36:55
of a neanderthal even where there isn't
00:36:57
a single Neanderthal fossil in the site
00:36:59
even if there's one stone tool showing
00:37:01
us the Neanderthals were there
00:37:03
that Neanderthal may have left their DNA
00:37:05
in the cave so that's a project that's
00:37:08
been worked on at denissable Cave itself
00:37:10
where they've got large numbers of
00:37:13
sequences of animals that were living
00:37:15
there and of the early humans
00:37:16
neanderthals denisolans and Homo sapiens
00:37:19
just for in case sediment we're applying
00:37:22
that to some sites in Britain now to see
00:37:24
if we can recover
00:37:26
um sediment DNA even of the Neanderthals
00:37:29
that we know we're living in Britain
00:37:31
even though we have a very sparse fossil
00:37:33
record
00:37:34
um and I'm also looking at dating work
00:37:37
on on fossils so this is something a
00:37:40
long-term interest particularly with a
00:37:41
colleague called Ryan adren we dated the
00:37:44
famous cabway or broken Hill fossil to
00:37:47
around 300 000 years ago a couple of
00:37:49
years ago there are still some other
00:37:51
fossils that we hope to get better
00:37:52
chronology for
00:37:54
well your Decades of work at the London
00:37:57
Natural History Museum have been very
00:37:59
important indeed advancing our knowledge
00:38:01
on the human story and I'm very grateful
00:38:03
that you were able to take time out of
00:38:05
your schedule to talk to us today I will
00:38:07
leave links to your books research
00:38:09
papers and social media in the
00:38:11
description below and hopefully we can
00:38:14
have you back on the show in the very
00:38:16
near future
00:38:17
well great I've enjoyed being with you
00:38:20
and yeah it will be my pleasure to come
00:38:22
back and update you on some of this work
00:38:24
and who knows uh it's always difficult
00:38:27
to predict what's coming and so many
00:38:29
surprising discoveries I'm sure there'll
00:38:31
be some more by the time you ask me back
00:38:34
again
00:38:36
[Music]
00:38:52
foreign

Description:

Homo longi -- or Dragon Man -- is one of the newest human species discoveries, but what do we know about these hominids? The single H. longi skull was found, hidden away, and then found again -- but remains full of mystery. PROFESSOR CHRIS STRINGER is a researcher in human evolution, Department of Earth Sciences, specializing in Human Origins at the Natural History Museum in London. MARK from Evolution Soup talks with Chris about his background, the incredible Dragon Man story, and going beyond DNA with a new techique called proteomics. 00:00 START 02:00 Chris' background 06:35 The story of Dragon Man 11:21 Co-existing hominids 21:56 Proteomics 26:31 Where did all the hominids go? 34:26 Upcoming projects LINKS FOR CHRIS STRINGER TWITTER https://twitter.com/ChrisStringer65 NHM page https://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/departments-and-staff/staff-directory/chris-stringer.html Chris Stringer YouTube Channel is.gd/EoIMk7 Books by Chris Stringer on Amazon UK https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chris-Stringer/e/B001H6NLFC London Natural History Museum YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@NaturalHistoryMuseum Francis Crick Institute: https://www.crick.ac.uk/ Recent articles: New analysis of ancient human protein could unlock secrets of evolution https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/mar/05/new-analysis-of-ancient-human-protein-could-unlock-secrets-of-evolution Research Papers: Massive cranium from Harbin in northeastern China establishes a new Middle Pleistocene human lineage https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8454562/ The development of ideas about a recent African origin for Homo sapiens https://bit.ly/3mEtO9t SEE ALSO: Cheddar Man DNA Secrets ~ with DR SELINA BRACE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skqvavZQ6o8 Dragon Man artwork by CHUANG ZHAO FOOTAGE: Harbin | Winter Wonderland via R&L Travels Interviews powered by https://streamyard.com/ #evolutionsoup #evolution #paleo #paleontology #paleoartist #Homosapiens #hominid #artwork #Darwin #cave #bone #fossils #Neanderthal #australopithecus #hominin #extinct #animals #science #anthropology #paleoanthropology #genus #species #africa #skull #skulls #naturalselection #lucy #paleontology --------------- SUBSCRIBE to Evolution Soup: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYF3viBjllx21PDGYpZZKOg?sub_confirmation=1 FOLLOW Evolution Soup Instagram & Twitter! @evolution_soup SUBSCRIBE to the Podcast! https://evolutionsoup.buzzsprout.com/ [RSS feed: https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/354743.rss] Shop at our store! https://www.redbubble.com/people/evolutionsoup/shop In association with Talk Beliefs YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCW4uOCGQxCLHormwGHCs2LQ/videos?sub_confirmation=1 DISCLAIMER: Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use. Creative Commons.

Preparing download options

popular icon
Popular
hd icon
HD video
audio icon
Only sound
total icon
All
* — If the video is playing in a new tab, go to it, then right-click on the video and select "Save video as..."
** — Link intended for online playback in specialized players

Questions about downloading video

mobile menu iconHow can I download "Secrets of Dragon Man ~ with PROFESSOR CHRIS STRINGER" video?mobile menu icon

  • http://unidownloader.com/ website is the best way to download a video or a separate audio track if you want to do without installing programs and extensions.

  • The UDL Helper extension is a convenient button that is seamlessly integrated into YouTube, Instagram and OK.ru sites for fast content download.

  • UDL Client program (for Windows) is the most powerful solution that supports more than 900 websites, social networks and video hosting sites, as well as any video quality that is available in the source.

  • UDL Lite is a really convenient way to access a website from your mobile device. With its help, you can easily download videos directly to your smartphone.

mobile menu iconWhich format of "Secrets of Dragon Man ~ with PROFESSOR CHRIS STRINGER" video should I choose?mobile menu icon

  • The best quality formats are FullHD (1080p), 2K (1440p), 4K (2160p) and 8K (4320p). The higher the resolution of your screen, the higher the video quality should be. However, there are other factors to consider: download speed, amount of free space, and device performance during playback.

mobile menu iconWhy does my computer freeze when loading a "Secrets of Dragon Man ~ with PROFESSOR CHRIS STRINGER" video?mobile menu icon

  • The browser/computer should not freeze completely! If this happens, please report it with a link to the video. Sometimes videos cannot be downloaded directly in a suitable format, so we have added the ability to convert the file to the desired format. In some cases, this process may actively use computer resources.

mobile menu iconHow can I download "Secrets of Dragon Man ~ with PROFESSOR CHRIS STRINGER" video to my phone?mobile menu icon

  • You can download a video to your smartphone using the website or the PWA application UDL Lite. It is also possible to send a download link via QR code using the UDL Helper extension.

mobile menu iconHow can I download an audio track (music) to MP3 "Secrets of Dragon Man ~ with PROFESSOR CHRIS STRINGER"?mobile menu icon

  • The most convenient way is to use the UDL Client program, which supports converting video to MP3 format. In some cases, MP3 can also be downloaded through the UDL Helper extension.

mobile menu iconHow can I save a frame from a video "Secrets of Dragon Man ~ with PROFESSOR CHRIS STRINGER"?mobile menu icon

  • This feature is available in the UDL Helper extension. Make sure that "Show the video snapshot button" is checked in the settings. A camera icon should appear in the lower right corner of the player to the left of the "Settings" icon. When you click on it, the current frame from the video will be saved to your computer in JPEG format.

mobile menu iconWhat's the price of all this stuff?mobile menu icon

  • It costs nothing. Our services are absolutely free for all users. There are no PRO subscriptions, no restrictions on the number or maximum length of downloaded videos.