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Радио Свобода

Евгений Нужин

война в Украине

ЧВК Вагнера

ЧВК Вагнер

кувалда

удар кувалдой

казнь

радиосвобода

чвквагнера

войнавукраине

00:00:00

[music]

00:00:04

This is a program that a person has the right to

00:00:06

listen to and watch on

00:00:08

Radio Liberty and the TV channel.

00:00:10

Currently, the investigative committee is checking a

00:00:12

video recording the murder of Evgeniy

00:00:15

Nuzhina, a former prisoner

00:00:16

recruited by the private military company

00:00:18

Wagner for the war in Ukraine and,

00:00:21

allegedly, voluntarily defected to the Armed Forces of

00:00:23

Ukraine in the video published in a

00:00:27

telegram on November 12, he is needed After words about

00:00:30

the execution being carried out on him, he is

00:00:33

hit on the head with a sledgehammer. This is not the first, but

00:00:35

perhaps the most famous example of a non-

00:00:37

judicial reprisal of mercenaries from the private

00:00:40

military company Wagner over a participant in

00:00:42

the war in Ukraine on the Russian side,

00:00:44

says Ivan Voronin

00:00:47

woke up in this basement

00:00:51

where I was told that I would be tried,

00:00:54

these are the last words of Evgeniy before his

00:00:57

death, after them in this video, an

00:00:58

unknown person hit him twice

00:01:01

on the head with a sledgehammer, for ethical reasons we do not

00:01:02

show these frames of the video published by the

00:01:05

grayzone telegram channel, which

00:01:06

journalists associate with the structures of

00:01:08

businessman Evgeniy, close to Putin

00:01:10

Prigogine of the founder of the private military

00:01:12

company Wagner telegram channel this

00:01:14

video is posted with the signature Molotov

00:01:16

Retribution it consists of several

00:01:18

parts, first Evgeniy needs

00:01:19

introduces himself, gives an interview to

00:01:21

Ukrainian journalists and says that he was

00:01:22

recruited to the front in the Russian colony

00:01:24

and voluntarily went over to the side of Ukraine,

00:01:26

then he is shown in the dark

00:01:28

indoors, the man’s head is taped to

00:01:30

the bricks with tape, he says that on

00:01:32

November 11 he was stunned with a blow to the head and

00:01:34

kidnapped in Kiev. As for

00:01:36

Kuvaldunov, in this show it is clear that he did

00:01:40

not find happiness in Ukraine And he met

00:01:42

with unkind but fair people. I

00:01:45

think this film is called dogs

00:01:48

dog death comments on behalf of

00:01:50

Prigozhin were published on November 13 by the

00:01:52

press service of his company Concord.

00:01:54

However, two days later,

00:01:56

reports appeared that Prigozhin himself had

00:01:58

turned to the Prosecutor General's Office with a request to

00:01:59

check the video, according to his version, it

00:02:01

could have been kidnapped by US intelligence officers,

00:02:03

and the interviewed Prigozhin PMC members

00:02:06

deny involvement for the video to appear,

00:02:07

Evgeniy needs a former prisoner of the

00:02:09

Ryazan correctional colony where he was

00:02:11

recruited into the PMC avaktera On September 4, he

00:02:13

voluntarily surrendered to the Ukrainian military,

00:02:15

which he spoke about in an interview with the YouTube channel,

00:02:17

rumors are going away according to Luzhin, he decided

00:02:19

to fight against Russia because

00:02:21

he has relatives in western Ukraine to

00:02:22

recruit prisoners in the colony According to him,

00:02:25

Prigozhin was flown in and needed also

00:02:27

mentioned extrajudicial killings for

00:02:28

voluntary surrender But you did

00:02:30

n’t discuss among yourself What

00:02:33

could be

00:02:38

because they immediately update you

00:02:44

The author of this interview is a

00:02:51

good actor, the fact that he wanted to fight

00:02:54

on the side of Ukraine most likely He

00:02:57

realized already when he was captured. That is,

00:03:00

when he was in prison and bone in

00:03:04

his social networks the information

00:03:07

that Putin is great and he is for Russia, he

00:03:10

then clearly did not want to fight on the side of

00:03:12

Ukraine, the Google human rights project no

00:03:15

published versions of two sources about

00:03:17

how necessary before his death he ended up in

00:03:19

territory not controlled by Ukraine, one

00:03:21

reported that he was kidnapped in November, the other

00:03:23

was given out in exchange, the latest version

00:03:25

was confirmed by the adviser to the President of Ukraine

00:03:26

Mikhail Podolyak on the Rain TV channel, a

00:03:28

serviceman of

00:03:44

the SBU and Bur and, accordingly, the Prosecutor General's

00:03:47

Office in extrajudicial killings of persons

00:03:49

associated with the Wagner PMC, including

00:03:51

using a sledgehammer during the

00:03:52

Syrian campaign back in 2019,

00:03:55

Novaya Gazeta wrote, the founder of the

00:03:57

Sitting Russia project, Olga Romanova,

00:03:59

told the CTD telegram channel that

00:04:01

extrajudicial killings at the front affected

00:04:03

at least 40 recruited prisoners,

00:04:05

according to her, in response to any request from the Federal

00:04:07

Penitentiary Service about the

00:04:09

circumstances of the death of a prisoner of

00:04:10

the department will answer that this is a

00:04:12

State Secret, the Taiga-info publication on

00:04:14

November 15, with reference to relatives of

00:04:16

prisoners of Colony 37 in the Irkutsk

00:04:18

region, said that prisoners are

00:04:20

forcibly taken to the front in the dude

00:04:22

Wagner, relatives anonymously

00:04:23

complained about bullying, beating

00:04:25

and torture with a stun gun against

00:04:26

prisoners

00:04:28

[music]

00:04:32

program a person has the right to on the

00:04:34

radio Svoboda TV channel at the present time

00:04:37

my name is Maryana Tarachashnikova on a

00:04:39

video call with me lawyer Ilya Novikov

00:04:41

and the head of the legal service of the center for the

00:04:43

protection of human rights memorial Natalya

00:04:46

Secretaryova Ilya good evening

00:04:48

Hello,

00:04:49

as far as I understand, first the founder of the

00:04:52

Wagner dude Evgeniy Prigozhin

00:04:54

commented on the video of the murder of a man with a blow to the

00:04:55

head with a sledgehammer in the words of a dog, a

00:04:58

dog’s death, but already on Wednesday this

00:05:01

week, his

00:05:04

statements allegedly submitted to

00:05:07

the Prosecutor General’s Office began to be distributed online, where Prigozhin is already asking to

00:05:09

check this video and points to the

00:05:11

possible involvement of

00:05:13

US intelligence services in its production, from your

00:05:16

point of view. How can one explain the change in

00:05:19

this rhetoric when At first, they almost

00:05:22

boasted about what they did to a

00:05:25

man who had gone over to the side of the

00:05:28

military forces of Ukraine. And now they are already denying it like that,

00:05:32

says No no, these are all

00:05:34

towels, staged, check.

00:05:36

I’m not sure that this, in principle, needs to be

00:05:38

explained, we know from the events of 2017

00:05:43

when in a similar way It was

00:05:44

the Wagnerites who killed a man in Syria

00:05:47

Precisely with a sledgehammer Precisely while recording on

00:05:49

a video camera in order to later

00:05:51

brag about this, that is, we understand that this is

00:05:54

not news for them, not the first time, this is, in

00:05:57

principle, practically a corporate style,

00:06:00

and delving into some internal motives is

00:06:03

even more important why it first

00:06:05

he said one thing then another. It seems

00:06:06

completely unnecessary to me, it’s just that this is such a

00:06:09

structure, these are such people, this is such a

00:06:11

person, then let’s talk a little

00:06:13

about the Russian Federation. You have

00:06:16

already mentioned this story when, at the

00:06:19

request of the memorial, together with your

00:06:21

colleague Peter, for this, if I’m not confusing, I’m

00:06:23

addressing The Forestry Committee on behalf of the

00:06:26

Syrian brother Mohammed or Smail and

00:06:29

his Wagnerites in 2017, accompanied by a

00:06:33

video recording, broke his legs with sledgehammers, then

00:06:35

cut off his head, and photographs with

00:06:38

these people are mercenaries

00:06:40

who do not hide their faces and this severed

00:06:43

head is on the Internet, anyone

00:06:46

can see it, Russian law

00:06:48

obliges representatives of the state

00:06:51

to investigate the crime of Russian

00:06:53

citizens completely and abroad, but the

00:06:55

investigative committee refused to

00:06:56

open a case, why did they tell you to us, I’m

00:07:00

not telling you anything, they told the court,

00:07:03

in fact, the first time we

00:07:05

applied, they didn’t even

00:07:07

answer anything in principle, it’s just this statement,

00:07:10

which was signed by the brother the person themselves

00:07:14

gave the emoticon, it just sank like a stone in the

00:07:16

swamp the slightest splash and without sound

00:07:20

here it is necessary to clarify the details because the

00:07:22

details become clearer the picture of

00:07:24

events

00:07:25

in 2017, a video appeared in

00:07:28

which the

00:07:29

Warners, that is, it is clear

00:07:32

from the context

00:07:34

in masks with covered faces,

00:07:36

actually kill a man with a sledgehammer and

00:07:38

torture him

00:07:42

But this was a public version of the recording

00:07:44

that was from the very beginning, after

00:07:46

a while a recording version appeared,

00:07:48

apparently publications were not initially intended

00:07:50

where these same people were

00:07:52

already with their faces open, they posed

00:07:54

for I don’t know what this is, is it a demobilization

00:07:57

album or is it some kind of home archive

00:07:59

like you want

00:08:04

Well, apparently for yourself and your friends, and

00:08:07

now on this second recording, not on the

00:08:09

first one, which was initially so

00:08:10

anonymous. And on the second,

00:08:12

one person succeeded,

00:08:16

presumably who is this from among the

00:08:18

famous, one is almost certain, this is

00:08:21

almost certainly a check, the

00:08:24

surname is bull, these are residents of Rostov

00:08:26

area from which it is known that he

00:08:27

Served this structure of Ivan that

00:08:30

he visited Syria and in the statement that was

00:08:33

submitted by the brother of the murdered man, the

00:08:36

Russian investigative committee directly said that yes. So

00:08:38

I believe that such and such a person please

00:08:40

interrogate him Ask what he thinks about this

00:08:42

Was he at this records,

00:08:44

will he deny it at all, maybe he won’t

00:08:47

deny it And here you have a

00:08:49

preliminary certificate from a

00:08:52

Syrian lawyer stating that this

00:08:55

case is not being considered by the Syrian court, why is it important

00:08:56

because the police who were occupied by the

00:08:59

Russian Investigative Committee was that

00:09:01

this is Foreign territory We are not

00:09:04

our responsibility

00:09:05

so we will not initiate a

00:09:07

criminal case.

00:09:08

We know perfectly well that they know how to

00:09:10

initiate criminal cases because what is

00:09:12

happening there are several rooms of the

00:09:14

investigative committee buildings in Moscow

00:09:15

filled with houses, a case that they are

00:09:19

investigating about the terrible crimes of the

00:09:20

Ukrainian military in Ukraine

00:09:21

[music] of the

00:09:22

so-called a big Ukrainian case,

00:09:24

that is, they were never stopped

00:09:26

in this case, in fact, it was

00:09:27

directly prescribed by law. First, initiate this case

00:09:29

and already within the framework of this case,

00:09:31

find out, after all, they brought the daughter or

00:09:33

other people to

00:09:34

responsibility in Syria for this, if he is not

00:09:38

attracted, then he is obliged to attract it if

00:09:39

Russia does this case

00:09:42

Well, first the investigative committee

00:09:44

Then three instances of the Russian courts

00:09:46

took this position that no, this is not a case, it’s

00:09:49

not that we particularly wanted anything from them,

00:09:50

we understand that even if the case

00:09:52

is buzzing, they will still investigate and

00:09:55

will not be solely imitation

00:09:56

Our task was to provide the basis for

00:09:59

this case to be submitted to the

00:10:01

European Court of Human Rights, the

00:10:02

memorial itself, before Russia

00:10:04

finally withdrew this year. This

00:10:07

complaint was sent there. But

00:10:11

our working goals are one thing, and the

00:10:13

general context is another matter: understanding how we actually

00:10:16

received from the Russian judicial system

00:10:18

and So, accordingly, the Russian Committee

00:10:20

practically gave a

00:10:22

green light for the future, within the framework of

00:10:25

that history of 17, the ground was prepared

00:10:28

for this murder in 2022, the

00:10:31

Sevilles were told that you will not

00:10:32

do anything, whatever you want, yes you can, you can

00:10:35

kill people with a sledgehammer, we will not not how to

00:10:37

investigate the signal was transferred and it

00:10:40

was accepted So the events of 22 Yes,

00:10:43

by the way, from political scientists mainly and from

00:10:46

lawyers you can hear such a concept as

00:10:49

monopolies caused that the state itself

00:10:51

voluntarily

00:10:53

transfers from its hands, in general, deprives

00:10:56

itself of the monopoly on violence and this

00:10:59

can lead to an extreme catastrophe

00:11:02

we agree with this

00:11:04

Well, I don’t really agree with him,

00:11:07

this is in a normal state Monopoly

00:11:09

violence, what is a good quality of the

00:11:12

Russian state, even

00:11:15

if it is Monopoly remained strictly with

00:11:17

him without any without any

00:11:18

delegation without any transfer to anyone

00:11:20

else to you and me and so would be enough What

00:11:23

to talk about because the same things

00:11:25

Maybe not so colorful not with such an

00:11:28

executioner Voronezh fantasy as in

00:11:30

this case, given perfectly, the

00:11:32

Russian state with its own hands

00:11:34

knows how to kill its official employees

00:11:37

knows how to torture there is

00:11:40

no new element for us therefore

00:11:43

Well, monopoly violence this is something from a

00:11:45

good life this is from the first world

00:11:48

And in Russia it is not very

00:11:50

different this situation is the one that was the

00:11:52

one Yes thank you very much Ilya

00:11:55

Please stay in touch I want to

00:11:57

switch to the notary secretary she is an

00:12:00

expert in the field of international humanitarian law

00:12:03

Natalya here on Wednesday,

00:12:06

November 16, the adviser to the head of the office of the Ukrainian

00:12:09

president, Mikhail Podolyak, said that

00:12:11

the prisoner Evgeniy

00:12:13

was needed by the Wagner PMC and then surrendered to

00:12:17

Ukrainian military personnel; that he

00:12:19

voluntarily agreed to return to

00:12:21

Russia during a prisoner exchange; more precisely, that

00:12:24

means he first gave testimony,

00:12:26

including recruitment prisoners of Russian

00:12:28

colonies in a private military company and

00:12:30

then signed a handwritten consent

00:12:32

to the exchange of prisoners, in fact, as

00:12:35

part of this exchange process, you

00:12:37

handed them over to the

00:12:40

Russian authorities on the territory of Russia; you

00:12:42

gave them somewhere from Ukraine.

00:12:45

Please tell me from the point of view of humanitarian

00:12:48

law. Was it possible in principle? need to be given out

00:12:51

for exchange But even if he

00:12:55

signed some kind of voluntary

00:12:56

consent,

00:12:58

in fact it seems to me that this

00:13:00

situation is or is not yet, in

00:13:03

principle, quite dark, we don’t

00:13:06

understand whether he really

00:13:07

signed something, we don’t understand

00:13:09

whether he really wanted return to the territory of

00:13:11

Russia, and to whom it was most importantly handed over,

00:13:14

because well,

00:13:16

you still land that the people

00:13:18

present in the video or the

00:13:21

dude fighters are not

00:13:23

official agents of the state. You

00:13:25

talked about the Monopoly inflicted, I

00:13:27

agree with Ilya that according to

00:13:31

international law, international

00:13:32

humanitarian law there is such a thing

00:13:34

as an agent of the state and such a thing

00:13:36

as state control over some

00:13:39

armed group, most likely with a

00:13:43

high probability

00:13:45

we can say that Russia

00:13:47

controls the actions of the Wagner dude or

00:13:49

in any case they should be imputed as

00:13:53

if these were the actions of

00:13:54

state agents but how even according to the

00:13:57

official protocols of not a single

00:13:58

state in the world, not Russia or Ukraine,

00:14:00

there is nothing like handing over a

00:14:03

prisoner to the hands of whom

00:14:06

he was handed over. You clearly handed him over to me

00:14:09

[music] to the

00:14:11

unarmed forces of the Russian Federation

00:14:13

and to someone else who has no

00:14:16

rank of position at all. Well, actually- then, as if according to

00:14:19

Russian law, ahhh dude Probably

00:14:22

this is an illegal organization Yes, but the hotel

00:14:26

You also can’t say that the whole thing

00:14:29

was handed over to

00:14:32

Wagner, but because we don’t know this

00:14:35

at all, and the Russian military could then

00:14:39

hand it over to anyone else, that

00:14:41

is, that’s all in general gray zone

00:14:45

I am still interested in the question of the

00:14:47

person who found himself in this

00:14:49

situation, whose testimony, and

00:14:53

filmed, was widely

00:14:54

disseminated by the Ukrainian and

00:14:58

international media who told about

00:15:01

what he knew and could have been transferred to

00:15:05

someone else to exchange it. Well

00:15:09

from the point of view of formal law,

00:15:12

in fact, I would say that here

00:15:15

the question arises not even of international

00:15:18

humanitarian law, but of the good old

00:15:20

international human rights law,

00:15:21

which does not cease to be in force, the

00:15:23

European convention, the same one does not

00:15:25

cease to be in force during

00:15:26

Armed conflicts, and there is Article

00:15:29

Three of the European the convention that is

00:15:31

still in force in Ukraine on the prohibition of

00:15:35

torture and this article applies to the

00:15:38

case when the deportation,

00:15:42

etc., of a person to some third country will

00:15:44

most likely entail the

00:15:47

use of torture against him or the same thing

00:15:50

is the prohibition of murder, also article two of

00:15:54

the convention the same as one prohibits

00:15:57

extradition, deportation of a person to a third

00:15:59

country where he is highly likely to

00:16:02

face, uh, illegal deprivation of life, I

00:16:06

said that crookedly. Well, where can he be

00:16:08

killed, as happened in Russia, that is, of

00:16:10

course, this violates the European

00:16:12

convention with a fairly high

00:16:14

probability

00:16:15

Well, again, we don’t know if it happened in

00:16:18

Russia or didn’t happen in Russia

00:16:20

Prigozhin, for example. So, in general,

00:16:22

he claims that this is all the work of the CIA, it’s all

00:16:25

orchestrated in this statement

00:16:28

that he wrote to the Prosecutor General’s Office

00:16:30

for some reason, they sent it to the Investigative Committee, so

00:16:32

he lays out everything your thoughts,

00:16:35

however, please tell me whether

00:16:36

the investigation should find out who actually

00:16:39

appears in this video recording, if

00:16:43

anyone was there except in childhood Who was the

00:16:45

operator, who distributed these recordings,

00:16:48

where did they appear in the well-known telegram channel?

00:16:49

Let's give this some kind of

00:16:52

legal assessment Yes, yes, of course, the answer to

00:16:55

all these

00:16:57

elements is Yes, I just want to clarify that

00:17:00

even if this did not happen on the territory of

00:17:03

Russia, it will be completely

00:17:05

Russian citizens and, with a high

00:17:07

probability, agents of the state.

00:17:09

Therefore,

00:17:11

Russian law enforcement agencies

00:17:13

still have the obligation to investigate the

00:17:15

allegation of a crime and the fact of these

00:17:20

the facts that we all saw and Yes, they

00:17:22

must establish

00:17:25

What happened in all these instances,

00:17:27

who filmed this, what kind of telegram channel is this,

00:17:29

how did it turn out there, who? In the video, all

00:17:31

these questions should be established,

00:17:34

will they be established? Well, a good

00:17:36

question.

00:17:37

This is a video. By the way, so far not yet prohibited

00:17:39

not blocked not blocked by

00:17:42

Roskomnadzor not included by the court in the

00:17:44

list of any unwanted videos that

00:17:47

is, well, everything seems to be in order Yes,

00:17:50

they started moving after five days there

00:17:54

you can not get up from your chair and

00:17:57

remember exactly this case from 2017

00:17:58

Syrian where go to the authorities, the courts

00:18:02

said that Well, we can’t

00:18:04

verify the authenticity of this video, we do

00:18:08

n’t know what it is, what can we do and

00:18:10

throw up our hands? In my practice,

00:18:13

there are also cases when there is a video recording from a

00:18:17

state TV channel and instead of

00:18:19

at least calling the producer of this

00:18:21

show A and ask whether it really

00:18:23

was going through new bodies they just

00:18:25

say but we can’t verify there was

00:18:27

some kind of editing whether

00:18:29

this episode really existed or not

00:18:32

I want to switch to Ilya Novikov

00:18:35

Ilya Now you are sitting in Kiev and of

00:18:38

course you look completely differently

00:18:40

probably the events that are happening here for

00:18:42

our discussion of all these stories,

00:18:45

including humanitarian law there,

00:18:48

human rights law is not valid

00:18:51

during a military conflict from your point of

00:18:53

view. These are the changes dictated by this

00:18:56

war that simply need to be

00:18:59

made to the system of international law in the

00:19:02

system of relations or while they are underway

00:19:05

military actions, in principle, you can forget

00:19:08

about any right and at least Don’t make changes here

00:19:11

Make this senseless

00:19:15

right is wonderful because the point of view on

00:19:17

it does not depend on who Where

00:19:19

is on which side of the war this is what it is like it

00:19:20

is

00:19:22

I’m not sure that in such a way at

00:19:26

all difficult Difficult

00:19:29

to change matter as international

00:19:31

humanitarian law, you can quickly

00:19:34

make some changes

00:19:36

even to refix the

00:19:38

results of the same

00:19:40

Mirabelle process, let’s take into account conditionally

00:19:43

several years to simply

00:19:44

translate this into a convention, which is now the

00:19:46

Geneva Convention

00:19:48

and the next decades to

00:19:52

work out in practice, it’s

00:19:54

obvious to me that all the talk about

00:19:59

Russia as a state sponsor of

00:20:02

terrorism, they also come from some more

00:20:04

prosperous time, because

00:20:06

international law has not worked out

00:20:09

such a concept as a state not just a

00:20:10

sponsor, which troits

00:20:12

money or information or weapons or

00:20:15

means of some kind then people who,

00:20:19

and the fact that the state is its employees,

00:20:22

does not matter, cannot stand military uniforms and

00:20:25

citizenship,

00:20:27

who simply during their working hours are

00:20:30

engaged in what is a

00:20:31

statistical activity at

00:20:35

8 in the morning, kisses his wife, goes to work, and

00:20:39

there from nine to five they are engaged in

00:20:41

murder, the

00:20:44

current state of international law

00:20:48

is this the concept is not yet ready and

00:20:50

Russia is doing everything possible to ensure that such a

00:20:52

concept does enter because, in

00:20:54

my opinion, the concept of the state is

00:20:59

now on a continental scale

00:21:03

[music]

00:21:04

Well, and all sorts of other things, all this

00:21:07

talk about about sovereignty

00:21:10

to which Russia constantly insists

00:21:13

that when I do something there will be

00:21:16

some new sanctions or some

00:21:18

restrictions or they simply show

00:21:20

representatives at the door by diplomats

00:21:24

also from such more prosperous times

00:21:28

when the law of War and Peace, for example,

00:21:30

assumed responsibility now,

00:21:32

starting from the Second World War you can

00:21:35

just count Well, maybe not on the fingers of

00:21:37

two hands Yes, maybe a lot more

00:21:39

legs will have to act, but still

00:21:41

not much more in the case when

00:21:42

Armed conflicts are accompanied by the

00:21:43

official phenomenon of war absolutely And

00:21:46

the majority of soldiers, including

00:21:47

millions,

00:21:48

pass without a declaration of war The right of

00:21:52

war has become so regulated that

00:21:55

the state is extremely reluctant why

00:21:57

now the Russians one group of reasons

00:22:00

probably still lies in the plane of

00:22:01

PR there Putin from the very beginning

00:22:03

would rather be a peacemaker even when

00:22:06

He destroys cities and there are

00:22:08

tens of thousands of people, it was still more pleasant to

00:22:11

do it out of the brain that we don’t kill

00:22:13

but The second reason is that

00:22:16

when you have the official status of

00:22:18

declared

00:22:20

No matter who I saw there, it is

00:22:23

much more difficult for you to receive

00:22:26

military materials abroad,

00:22:28

all these rules for the supply of

00:22:31

war products from neutral countries, non-

00:22:33

warring countries, and so on are already included. following the

00:22:37

results of the Second World War, which was

00:22:39

terrible, some of which were experienced as

00:22:42

some kind of shock, here is an attempt to introduce into

00:22:45

international law such a regulation

00:22:47

that would make such terrible things

00:22:49

impossible. It led to the fact that terrible

00:22:52

wars are

00:22:53

not yet happening on a global scale;

00:22:56

we have not yet had a Third The world is quite a

00:22:58

large headquarters

00:23:02

and is being conducted in such a way as not to fall under

00:23:05

this regulation

00:23:07

so that these things also go under it. The

00:23:10

international community must be

00:23:11

fixed, that is, there must be an

00:23:14

understanding that the recipes of the 20th century of the 21st

00:23:16

no longer work very well because

00:23:18

how a disease mutates into a cure also the

00:23:21

approaches of such states Like Russia, it is

00:23:23

also mutating what to enter these are

00:23:26

the rules Ilya Thank you very much. In

00:23:29

conclusion, I want to ask you a question

00:23:31

related to the work of investigators from the

00:23:34

International Tribunal on the territory of

00:23:36

Ukraine, this was announced and if I’m

00:23:39

not confusing anything, you at some time with

00:23:41

collaborated with them. In any case, they

00:23:42

were accompanied by their group in the storm, if I’m not

00:23:45

confusing you a little, it means that

00:23:49

our group of lawyers was just one of the groups

00:23:51

that collected the same thing as the

00:23:53

introduction of funds and as for

00:23:55

international groups Yes, it is still

00:23:57

completely unclear which of the culprits of

00:24:00

this war

00:24:01

those who unleashed and those mischievous

00:24:03

proceeds will still end up in the

00:24:05

International Tribunal because

00:24:07

only one of the structures that

00:24:08

can potentially administer justice as

00:24:12

a result of this war because, by

00:24:15

default, most likely most of the

00:24:17

perpetrators are presented before

00:24:19

Ukrainian courts,

00:24:22

but nevertheless not yet a certain

00:24:24

personal club,

00:24:26

investigators authorized by Gaga agree with the

00:24:29

authorities, they collected information here

00:24:32

which later will or will not

00:24:35

become the subject of this

00:24:36

proceeding. This is not a quick story; this

00:24:40

Hague terminal is famous for its

00:24:42

slowness in work; there, back in the late

00:24:45

1990s, people continued to be tried for the

00:24:49

events of the former Yugoslavia.

00:24:51

Well, yes Considering that people are being tried for

00:24:56

the events in Ireland 94

00:24:59

Putin's age is his closest friends, if

00:25:02

we give 20 years

00:25:04

before they stand trial,

00:25:06

but most of them will live, so

00:25:08

the question of who will personally go to Gaga

00:25:10

This is not an obvious question, I would not

00:25:12

wave here called checker right and

00:25:15

left and Let's all first of all not

00:25:17

rubber

00:25:18

people are not young Yes and there is

00:25:20

probably no

00:25:23

fundamental black and white

00:25:25

situation there that if this is Gaga then it's

00:25:27

good But if it's

00:25:30

terrible Yes of course there are always

00:25:34

new mass graves new

00:25:36

facts

00:25:38

there that were not known that

00:25:40

happened, for example, a murder in March at the

00:25:43

beginning of the Russian offensive And now

00:25:44

they are being discovered not only now that

00:25:46

Ukrainian territory is being liberated, there is

00:25:48

storage, there are torture

00:25:50

chambers

00:25:51

there in the east in the south of Ukraine That is,

00:25:55

this is an ongoing process,

00:25:56

yes, thank you very much, lawyer Ilya Novikov

00:25:59

was in touch with the program, a person has the

00:26:01

right Thank you Ilya I would like to conclude by

00:26:04

asking Natalya Sekrereva

00:26:07

Natalya, please tell me in your opinion

00:26:10

how they work and whether, in principle, there are

00:26:13

any mechanisms for

00:26:15

forcing states to comply with the norms of

00:26:19

this International Humanitarian

00:26:20

Law in connection with with the fact that for almost 9 months now

00:26:23

the war in the center of Europe has been

00:26:27

unleashed by Russia, although it does not call it

00:26:30

a war, and yet the short answer is there

00:26:33

are no coercion mechanisms, no in the

00:26:37

current situation there is a separate issue of

00:26:39

International Humanitarian Law, there are

00:26:41

issues regulating the legality of the

00:26:43

use of force and so on, questions of

00:26:45

International Humanitarian Law are

00:26:47

when everything bad has already happened. This is

00:26:49

simply a rule of waging war

00:26:51

that applies regardless of the declaration

00:26:53

of war; relations with prisoners to civilians;

00:26:58

yes, yes, methods of waging war; prohibited

00:27:01

methods of conducting

00:27:03

military operations

00:27:04

to maintain peace and security; and it does

00:27:08

not work at all. because it is

00:27:10

tied to the actions of the Social

00:27:12

Security Security Councils of the United

00:27:14

Nations, one of the permanent members since the

00:27:17

right century of which is the Russian

00:27:18

Federation and, accordingly,

00:27:23

any peacekeeping missions,

00:27:25

any missions using

00:27:26

armed force, any

00:27:29

authorization of any

00:27:30

coercive actions at the international

00:27:32

level is taken

00:27:34

security council resolutions on the

00:27:36

existing architecture became he Well,

00:27:39

what are the chances that Russia will not veto

00:27:43

such

00:27:44

decisions, but something should be changed from your point

00:27:48

of view in the near future, in this

00:27:51

case, in this part, Ilya said that in

00:27:55

general it is necessary to reconsider already

00:27:57

approaches Because so much time

00:27:59

has passed since the Second World War that when

00:28:01

it was reflected on, it turned out that everything that

00:28:04

was invented does not work now and now

00:28:07

the state is violating

00:28:09

something the international community can

00:28:11

do to change this situation

00:28:13

now the

00:28:15

state has been violating this since about the

00:28:18

first day, accept the joint for others

00:28:21

documents Therefore, here I am probably even more

00:28:23

pessimistic than Ilya. It

00:28:25

seems to me that the question to this can

00:28:28

only be a personal philosophical one. My

00:28:32

philosophical answer is that the

00:28:34

system in general of international law of

00:28:36

international relations is

00:28:38

tied to the state, the state is a

00:28:40

symmetrical system and is living itself out,

00:28:43

as if it could still be alive long

00:28:44

but if we want to survive As humanity

00:28:47

we need to abandon it because

00:28:49

we are burning the ozone layer we uh

00:28:54

we are

00:28:56

revolutionary such views in general on the

00:28:59

fate of humanity kindle these are

00:29:02

exclusively my personal views which

00:29:05

of which I am guided by yes I don’t

00:29:07

think that even with me many of my

00:29:09

colleagues will agree, but it’s like the concept of

00:29:12

state borders is the concept of the first

00:29:14

world of the third world. That is, these are all

00:29:16

links of one chain and it’s all built on a

00:29:20

huge inequality of resources,

00:29:21

inequality of opportunities and all this leads

00:29:24

us, as it were, to a big apocalypse Well, it’s

00:29:26

like either a nuclear war or a

00:29:28

global warming and we will all burn Well, that

00:29:30

is, it’s like the Road is not very honest,

00:29:33

to be honest, I don’t want to end

00:29:35

on this note at all, but unfortunately it has temporarily

00:29:38

come to an end. Thank you very much,

00:29:40

head of the legal service of the Center for

00:29:43

the Protection of Human Rights memorial Natalya

00:29:45

Secretaryova was in touch with the program the

00:29:48

person has right

00:29:49

[music]

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Следственный комитет проверяет видео, запечатлевшее убийство Евгения Нужина, бывшего заключённого, завербованного “ЧВК Вагнера” для войны в Украине , и, как утверждается, добровольно перешедшего на сторону ВСУ. На видео, опубликованном в сети 12 ноября, обездвиженный Нужин после слов о совершаемой над ним казни, получает удары кувалдой по голове. Это не первый но, пожалуй, самый известный пример внесудебной расправы наемников из “ЧВК Вагнера” над участником войны в Украине с российской стороны. Гости программы: Илья Новиков, адвокат Наталья Секретарёва, руководитель юридической службы Центра защиты прав человека “Мемориал” Ведёт программу “Человек имеет право” Марьяна Торочешникова Подпишитесь на канал Радио Свобода https://www.youtube.com/user/SvobodaRadio/?sub_confirmation=1 Включите уведомления о новых видео, нажав на значок колокольчика.

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